Women in Brass Bands

[GJG]

I think people might have been on the Christmas brandy, a bit early I would say! There are people that have completely rejected that there is sexism on this thread.

I did use the word "seriously"; perhaps not in the correct place. Perhaps I should re-phrase to say "I believe most people would accept that sexism exists in some bands to one degree or another, institutionalised or otherwise, and even if the people involved genuinely believe that it's only 'harmless banter' ...

 

[Pauli Walnuts]

I think people might have been on the Christmas brandy, a bit early I would say! There are people that have completely rejected that there is sexism on this thread.

Correlation and causation is a trap people often fall into - because there are less female conductors does not confirm sexism - it confirms only that a lot of female conductors have not chosen that path. Please read Moomin's response earlier about one female conductor's reasons for not moving to get a top job - and I suspect her position is mirrored by others.

In a band I have played with last year, there are 13 males, 12 females and and 1 LGBT. That band has also had a female MD in the past. In another band, 14 males & 9 females. This band has previously had female conductors twice.
As I stated previously, in my experience, I have not seen sexism in bands in my area.
As for the sexism on this thread, it is a small number - and one of those is the idiot who thinks he's funny by repeating similar comments in other non-related threads. I would be disappointed if any of them are part of the management team of their bands.

 

[BandFanatic]

Correlation and causation is a trap people often fall into - because there are less female conductors does not confirm sexism - it confirms only that a lot of female conductors have not chosen that path. Please read Moomin's response earlier about one female conductor's reasons for not moving to get a top job - and I suspect her position is mirrored by others.

In a band I have played with last year, there are 13 males, 12 females and and 1 LGBT. That band has also had a female MD in the past. In another band, 14 males & 9 females. This band has previously had female conductors twice.
As I stated previously, in my experience, I have not seen sexism in bands in my area.
As for the sexism on this thread, it is a small number - and one of those is the idiot who thinks he's funny by repeating similar comments in other non-related threads. I would be disappointed if any of them are part of the management team of their bands.

Point of enquiry, the LGBT member, what gender are they (or what gender do they associate with), or are they counted separately?

 

[Pauli Walnuts]

Can't see any justification for quotas; surely the vacancy has to be filled by the best player for the job, irrespective of gender ...

nail:head.
And thanks for sharing the other story - what a great example of perseverance.

 

[MoominDave]

Point of enquiry, the LGBT member, what gender are they (or what gender do they associate with), or are they counted separately?

Fair point - I assume this is T rather than LGB (as LGB doesn't really bear on this thread directly). Trans people (not that I've met many, they're pretty rare I think in the main) don't tend to like being put into a special box - rather, they've put a good deal of effort and emotional investment into being perceived as their chosen gender, and the best manners are to just treat them as that without comment.

Mind you, this is pretty academic regarding the current discussion - there are so few trans people in banding that I am not aware of ever having met a trans bander. They aren't going to tip the female numbers balance one way or the other.

And mind you again, you never know what people actually want until you explicitly confirm with them. There are I'm sure those whose method of gender expression involves defining themselves as 'other' - e.g. there was a story in the paper a year or two back about an Australian who had had themselves legally declared without gender. And then there are those who would find being explicitly confirmed with a bit traumatic. It's a bit of a minefield.

Anyway, drifting off topic.

 

[owain_s]

I don't see that this forum is full of talented female players who are resentful that they have been passed over for appointment to seats in championship section bands in favour of inferior players who happen to be male. That's not to say there aren't any, and I don't think anyone is saying that sexism doesn't exist in some bands to some degree, institutionalised or otherwise, but the solution can only be through education and encouragement, not mandate. I don't think anyone seriously disagrees that an environment should exist where players should be appointed purely on the basis of ability, irrespective of gender, but introducing quotas cannot be the answer.

I fully agree that quotas wouldn't be any kind of solution.

I thoroughly endorse the 'education and encouragement' line, too, rather than any top-down approach. Discrimination and prejudice can creep in at every stage, often unwittingly, right from how and when children are exposed to music, and how they might be guided towards choosing an instrument to learn. At each stage from there on, it's possible for gender stereotypes to be reinforced in a way which can make some feel less welcome or more out-of-place. (Ian's casual sexism in unrelated threads is a perfect example of this.)

 

[Pauli Walnuts]

Point of enquiry, the LGBT member, what gender are they (or what gender do they associate with), or are they counted separately?

I counted them separately to the M/F count. It's not overly relevant except to point to the fact that this band (and it is not untypical in that area) doesn't have an imbalance of M/F members and that ethnic minorities and LGBT have even less representation.

 

[BandFanatic]

Thanks for the clarification. Interestingly enough, in my observation the movement does see to be quite dare I say it, progressive in its attitude towards the inclusion of ethnic minorities and LGBT as compared to gender.

 

[Pauli Walnuts]

Thanks for the clarification. Interestingly enough, in my observation the movement does see to be quite dare I say it, progressive in its attitude towards the inclusion of ethnic minorities and LGBT as compared to gender.

Things must be different in Leeds then as the numbers I gave earlier suggest the ladies are getting better opportunities down south! But to keep this to the OP, that's another issue!

 

[BandFanatic]

Things must be different in Leeds then as the numbers I gave earlier suggest the ladies are getting better opportunities down south! But to keep this to the OP, that's another issue!

Off topic - True, but in terms of attitude, I have not yet seen a willingness to crack jokes or show prejudice towards others groups as I have seen towards women.

 

[Pauli Walnuts]

Off topic - True, but in terms of attitude, I have not yet seen a willingness to crack jokes or show prejudice towards others groups as I have seen towards women.

Perhaps a trip to an Old Firm derby will change your mind on that!

 

[Ianroberts]

This is telling: http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/sho...-Entertainment&p=855270&viewfull=1#post855270

Taking the supposed 'tounge in cheek' comments out of this thread and dropping them into a totally unrelated one shows that Ian does not care about context one bit.

No, it shows you as one of those who as I have stated in the past shoves his head so far up his own ................ (fill in the blank) trying to impress people on here. I believe that you should talk on this forum exactly as you would if we had a discussion in a pub. That is what I try to do, you however I am sure are used to sitting on your own in pubs if you spout half the "listen to me " rubbish you drown on about in here. You strike me as someone that thinks he is far superior to eveyone else, apart from obviously those that you are trying to impress ! get real, get a life !

 

[Ianroberts]

By the way, are you going to Butlins ? I would love a face to face one on one chat with you just to see how clever you actually are ! and no that is not a threat before you start spouting !

 

[BandFanatic]

By the way, are you going to Butlins ? I would love a face to face one on one chat with you just to see how clever you actually are ! and no that is not a threat before you start spouting !

I'll be there, see you in Burger King?

 

[Ianroberts]

I'll be there, see you in Burger King?

On which visit, I may be more regular than you (figuratively speaking obviously)

 

[BandFanatic]

On which visit, I may be more regular than you (figuratively speaking obviously)

If you plan to spend the whole weekend in BK, then I would imagine you to be anything but regular.

 

[Pauli Walnuts]

No, it shows you as one of those who as I have stated in the past shoves his head so far up his own ................ (fill in the blank) trying to impress people on here. I

Nobody is trying to impress anyone - it's a discussion! You might like to inject schoolboy humour into every discussion but here's something you clearly don't know: it's not always appropriate.
I like a joke as much as the next man - but in a serious conversation such as this one, your attempts at being funny and your subsequent accusation that people have their heads up their rear ends simply because they are having an intelligent debate is inappropriate behaviour.

Here's something to consider: start a separate thread called something like "Ian's Thread" where you post as much "banter" as you like. I might even respond to some of it in a like fashion. But please leave the serious debate to those who want to have it.
Thank you and have a happy Christmas.

 

[Ianroberts]

an there is another ! you have a who is cleverer than who chat. When you have all played your "this has to be the comment of the thread" card someone else will just try to trump it. Make a personal attack on me and I will like any other bite back. Probably better to just keep quiet eh sunshine !

 

[owain_s]

I believe that you should talk on this forum exactly as you would if we had a discussion in a pub.

There's a regular in our band pub, who props up the bar and gives unsolicited advice to other customers as to which guest ales cause him digestive difficulties (I paraphrase).

Yeah, I'm at Butlins. Might be busy, though.

 

[2nd tenor]

Here's something to consider: start a separate thread called something like "Ian's Thread" where you post as much "banter" as you like. I might even respond to some of it in a like fashion. But please leave the serious debate to those who want to have it.
Thank you and have a happy Christmas.

Ian was pulled into this 'serious' thread by owain_s, Ian had left the 'intellectuals' to it for some time and exercised a right of reply.

It's an interesting thread (IMHO) so can this uncalled for diversion be set to one side please.