Why has banding suddenly become complicated???

aqua76

Member
kirmat said:
As I have mentioned before I would like the opportunity(as you have) to be a Champion Band of my country (England), at the moment I first become a West of England Champion and then jump straight to be being British Champion (I wish!).
We will have the British Open to decide the "Best of British" if you need it.

Ian Heard.

Think the only reason we have 'Scottish' and 'Welsh' Championships is due to the geographic size of each region.
For example in Scotland, if you were to split it up, even into two areas (West and East) your top section would have 2 or so in West and 8 in East. Now thats suits me being in the west....so do the top two from East and West qualify for the Nationals or do they have to go head to head for the place?
Or how about this for an off the wall idea, have all 10 bands compete on same day!!!
The number of bands (all sections) in our banding area don't justify Scotland and Wales having a Nationals all on their own.

Defo think that all the moaning/complaining about the changes to All England Masters is etc is down to fact that there isnt a contest purely for English bands.

You realise that all you have to do to become 'English champion' is to amalgamate all 6 contesting regions in England!! No probs eh!!
 

LipService

Member
Hmmm..

I can understand fully what kirmat is trying to say in that he basically wants English bands to be afforded the chance of a English Contest.

In the qualifying stakes for the National Championships, there is a Welsh Area and a Scottish Area, yet five areas for England. This may be solely down to the size of England as a country and the amount of competing bands that are based there.

Why not then split the whole of Britain into areas with Southern Welsh Counties being included in West of England area? North West area bands to be included with North Welsh bands etc? Of course you will still get areas that will be predominantly English, Welsh or Scottish due to basic geography, but surely this would be a more harmonious solution then creating yet another "US and Them" scenario. Ok there would be more 'areas', but we would all be working along the same guidlines.

Firstly, I do however understand completely how the lead post on this thread could anger those of Scottish and Welsh nationality. I believe that any divides in brass banding should lie in the talent and ability arena and not with nationalities. Secondly, where does this kind of thinking stop? Indeed, do we now accept as a valid opinion that only the English should play in English bands?
 

IanHeard

Member
aqua76 said:
Think the only reason we have 'Scottish' and 'Welsh' Championships is due to the geographic size of each region.
For example in Scotland, if you were to split it up, even into two areas (West and East) your top section would have 2 or so in West and 8 in East. Now thats suits me being in the west....so do the top two from East and West qualify for the Nationals or do they have to go head to head for the place?
Or how about this for an off the wall idea, have all 10 bands compete on same day!!!
The number of bands (all sections) in our banding area don't justify Scotland and Wales having a Nationals all on their own.

Defo think that all the moaning/complaining about the changes to All England Masters is etc is down to fact that there isnt a contest purely for English bands.

You realise that all you have to do to become 'English champion' is to amalgamate all 6 contesting regions in England!! No probs eh!!

Only in England would there be a need for a Area Qualifying Contest. Wales and Scotland would require only one contest to decide its "National" Champion(s) and Euro representative.
England would stage a English only National Final to find its Champion(s) and Euro representative.....I was honest enough to say this would be a selfish act by England.
Most English top bands are seeking to streamline their Contest Calendar and the proposed extra new contest being organised by the BFBB is another expensive committment for little or no reward.

Ian Heard.
 

Ginge

Member
kirmat said:
I think English bands need to force the issue and make things less complicated.
We need to "offload" the Welsh and Scottish bands from the Area and Finals picture and let Besson fund "National" contests in Wales and Scotland separately from England.
England will then be free to organise an All England Contest along the same lines(and instead of) our current National Brass Band Championships of Great Britain.
This will include bands in all sections and will produce 5 All England Champion bands across the 5 sections.
This would then produce Englands representative(s) for the European competition the top bands approve of.
I think a lot of people would mourn the loss of a true British Championship but its time to wrest control from Besson and for England to be selfish (for once!) and I have a feeling that Besson would come back with its tail between its legs.
Its time England realised it has clout ,but with the welsh and scottish involved we lack focus.

Ian Heard.

I personally would much prefer to compete against bands from all over Great Britain, rather than just English bands.
Your idea seems to limit contest for scottish and welsh bands. I'm sure they would like the chance to compete against english bands at these contests.
If you wanted to seperate england, scotland and wales then you could do that at each contest,but with an overall winner. Have prizes for the best english band, the best welsh band and the best scottish band with an overall winner!
I personaly, think it's fine that all of Great Britain are competing together, but if you wanted to seperate it, then that's a way of doing it.
Just and idea...
 

Maestro

Active Member
kirmat said:
I think English bands need to force the issue and make things less complicated.
We need to "offload" the Welsh and Scottish bands from the Area and Finals picture and let Besson fund "National" contests in Wales and Scotland separately from England.

Ian Heard.


I can understand what you are trying to say Kirmat, but the bit that I have highlighted is the bit, which to me, seems to come across as arrogant and very disrespectful.

When I 'offload' something, it normally means I have disappeared to the loo for 30 mins with the crossword, and the 'offending' articles has been flushed well away.
Is this what you meant by 'offloading'?
 

Highnote

New Member
This thread has now got very complicated. The Scottish & Welsh issues are totally irrelevant. It seems quite simple to me - the major contests should consist of

1. English, Scottish & Welsh National Titles (already in place when the new English Championships get off the ground)

2. Ebba European Championships with qualification from 1. Above.

3. British Open Championship. (As currently)

4. Lower section British championships ( a re-vamp of the current 'nationals' also to include championship section bands who havn't qualified for 1 Above. Area qualifyers to take part as at present. Winners & runners up of Championship section to qualify for following years British Open Championship.

Four main contests - all run democratically with input from Bands at all levels - Simple????????
 

ScrapingtheBottom

Active Member
Highnote said:
This thread has now got very complicated. The Scottish & Welsh issues are totally irrelevant. It seems quite simple to me - the major contests should consist of

1. English, Scottish & Welsh National Titles (already in place when the new English Championships get off the ground)

2. Ebba European Championships with qualification from 1. Above.

3. British Open Championship. (As currently)

4. Lower section British championships ( a re-vamp of the current 'nationals' also to include championship section bands who havn't qualified for 1 Above. Area qualifyers to take part as at present. Winners & runners up of Championship section to qualify for following years British Open Championship.

Four main contests - all run democratically with input from Bands at all levels - Simple????????

Too many contests!

I don't see the problem of not having an all english contest open to all sections. We all know what "Champion band of Scotland or Wales" means when it comes to the nationals anyway.
 

The Cornet King

Active Member
Interesting that this one has kicked off! :-?

I personally can't see the problem of having the National Championships of Great Britain. Like hasbeen previously said a good 4/5 of the top 10 bands going are Scottish or Welsh.
The All England Masters has been in place (and the new English Masters will be in place) to sort out the best 'English band' regardless of who accepts the entries. You can also work out the best bands from the respective countries from the National finals anyway.

As for 'offloading' of any bands, i think the present situation is getting far too complicated as it is, and that this is not at all necessary.
Funding isn't exactly at a major high for the brass movement at present and probably never will be (unless you are one of the 'big boys'), so i think we can do without needless 'extra' contests that would require extra funds and that has the potential to kill any thoughts of bands contesting when the costs could start getting silly.

Just my thoughts. :p
 
I too was a bit miffed to say the least at the suggesting of "offloading" Scottish and Welsh bands, presumably to get down to the nitty gritty with the best bands...!If English bandsmen (rightly by the way) want the opportunity to be classed as Champion Band of England can't there be some reconcilliation of all the area results after the day (given that we're all playing the same test pieces) then the top scoring band in each section could be crowned champions of England, or is this just another can opening with the worms of adjudication differences etc wriggling about everywhere?
 
Thought I should qualify my last post a bit. Having been a member of a fourth section Champion Band of Scotland and of a second section champion band of the north east, I too would like to add the English crown to my haul. It's much the same as the political situation - Home Rule for England will help us all!! (Time to get my tongue surgically removed from my cheek now!!)
 

Nuke

Active Member
i go back to what i said at the very begining of this thread but after reading all the replies it does seem stupidly complicated and thanks to you all fo increasing my miniscule knowledge of brass bands an awful lot
 

IanHeard

Member
Maestro said:
When I 'offload' something, it normally means I have disappeared to the loo for 30 mins with the crossword, and the 'offending' articles has been flushed well away.
Is this what you meant by 'offloading'?

In England we call what you describe above as....."going to the toilet"
 

Ginge

Member
The Cornet King said:
Interesting that this one has kicked off! :-?

I personally can't see the problem of having the National Championships of Great Britain. Like hasbeen previously said a good 4/5 of the top 10 bands going are Scottish or Welsh.
The All England Masters has been in place (and the new English Masters will be in place) to sort out the best 'English band' regardless of who accepts the entries. You can also work out the best bands from the respective countries from the National finals anyway.

As for 'offloading' of any bands, i think the present situation is getting far too complicated as it is, and that this is not at all necessary.
Funding isn't exactly at a major high for the brass movement at present and probably never will be (unless you are one of the 'big boys'), so i think we can do without needless 'extra' contests that would require extra funds and that has the potential to kill any thoughts of bands contesting when the costs could start getting silly.

Just my thoughts. :p

Totally agree!
 

JessopSmythe

Active Member
Just a thought, possibly irrelevant. How many English bands and bandsmen enjoyed Pontins this year? "Offload" the Welsh as suggested and there's at least one contest gone. Meanwhile, back on topic, I'm with John here. Despite being born in England and only being an adopted Welshman (having lived here 7 years or so) I found Kirmats quote arrogant in the extreme. Why on earth should any region be excluded from the regionals / nationals? We happen to be in the fortunate position of having association boundaries that coincide with our national boundaries and you're suggesting we be penalised for it? If the governments scheme for a Northern Assembly had got off the ground, creating another semi-autonomous region, would they also be excluded from your banding Utopia? Or, more relavant to yourself, what if Cornwall gets the independance they've been shouting for for years?. You'd have really shot yourself in the foot then wouldn't you?
More to the point, at a time when people throughout the movement are bemoaning the lack of new blood in banding and the shrinking audience numbers, I'm sure that an inward looking, selfish comment such as that is just the thing to help us move forwards.
 

IanHeard

Member
JessopSmythe said:
Just a thought, possibly irrelevant. How many English bands and bandsmen enjoyed Pontins this year? "Offload" the Welsh as suggested and there's at least one contest gone. Meanwhile, back on topic, I'm with John here. Despite being born in England and only being an adopted Welshman (having lived here 7 years or so) I found Kirmats quote arrogant in the extreme. Why on earth should any region be excluded from the regionals / nationals? We happen to be in the fortunate position of having association boundaries that coincide with our national boundaries and you're suggesting we be penalised for it? If the governments scheme for a Northern Assembly had got off the ground, creating another semi-autonomous region, would they also be excluded from your banding Utopia? Or, more relavant to yourself, what if Cornwall gets the independance they've been shouting for for years?. You'd have really shot yourself in the foot then wouldn't you?
More to the point, at a time when people throughout the movement are bemoaning the lack of new blood in banding and the shrinking audience numbers, I'm sure that an inward looking, selfish comment such as that is just the thing to help us move forwards.

The original post bemoaned the fact that "banding had become too complicated"
Namely 2 rival Euro competitions and a new Euro Qualifier for the top English bands.
My original post suggested a way to "uncomplicate things"... ie produce an English contender for the Euro contest and also satisfy a growing wish (in my view)
amongst English Banders for an English Championship.
You know as well as I do that to run a English Contest alongside our current GB championship would not work (remember the old Wills Contest?).
I don`t expect the Welsh or Scots(or indeed most English) to agree with this proposal, as far as their concerned everything is nice and neat.....you play in your "National" contest locally and the best band goes to the Euro`s and you become Scottish or Welsh Champion (across 5 sections).... this I repeat is an honour not available to English bands!
Other competitions like Pontins would surely remain unaffected even if we had 3 separate National Contests covering Wales, Scotland &England?
Perhaps the Northern Assembly did not succeed because the people wanted to be identified as "English" and not as people who inhabit a "region" of the United Kingdom.
As usual in this Country the Welsh and Scottish identity is catered for and actively encouraged, but when the English want the same!......

Ian Heard.
A proud Cornishman by the way!
 

brassneck

Active Member
Why can't the top placed English band at the Nationals be named as Champion Band of England? Is that too simple? In open contests, each band usually has an award for best placed in it's own section, regardless of it's overall position in the event.
 

IanHeard

Member
brassneck said:
Why can't the top placed English band at the Nationals be named as Champion Band of England? Is that too simple? In open contests, each band usually has an award for best placed in it's own section, regardless of it's overall position in the event.

Why can`t the top placed Welsh or Scottish band at the National final be named as their respective champion......sorry no need, they have a National Championship of their own already.
 

brassneck

Active Member
I think it is a matter of convenience that the Scottish Area and it's title of Scottish Champion band(s) are as one. There are more English bands than Irish, Welsh and Scottish put together and to organise a separate, fair English Championship would be a logistical nightmare in my opinion. I feel that the present set-up and the finals are good enough to decide which English band is judged the best in that year. At least most of the bands compete in this arena. Only my opinion. :-?
 

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