GordonH
Active Member
1814 makes sense as the first valved instruments came out in 1812.
Still, it looks like they are taking their foundation date rather than their brass only date.
Which brass band is the oldest in the UK?
- Thread starter GordonH
- Start date
1814 makes sense as the first valved instruments came out in 1812.
Still, it looks like they are taking their foundation date rather than their brass only date.
NOLONGERCURIOUS
Member
During the recent National Eisteddfod, it was mentioned that the first brass band as we know it was in fact Blaina and District, which I've heard previously.
They are not listed on the 'ibew' site.
Anyone from Blaenau Gwent shed any light on their history?
They are not listed on the 'ibew' site.
Anyone from Blaenau Gwent shed any light on their history?
MoominDave
Well-Known Member
Not entirely convinced... The first valves were patented in Prussia by Stolzel and Blumel in 1816, and I don't ever remember seeing any reports of valves predating the 1815 date cited here for Stolzel's invention. Where does 1812 come from?
In any case, Stolzel was an obscure musician working and living in what is now Southern Germany - it would have taken significant time for an invention to propagate the 800 miles across language barriers to Stalybridge given the limited communications systems of the day - although I'm sure that the Napoleonic wars afforded increased opportunities for the flow of ideas amongst military bandsmen of different nations.
So I strongly doubt that any UK band were equipped with any valved instruments in 1814, let alone being fully equipped. I'd imagine that keyed bugles and serpents were the order of the day? Maybe ophicleides - when did they arise?
GordonH
Active Member
My error Dave.
What we do know is that stoelzel type instruments were rare here. The miltary continued to use keyed bugles for quite a while. This one is from 1842:
http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ujt/ujt3024.html
I was wondering if one of the reasons for the move away from having woodwind in bands is the problem of playing in all weathers with pads. Older woodwind instruments were simple system (six holes) with corks sometimes covering additional holes. Boehm system instruments have pads and I know this can be problematic in the rain. Boehm patented his system in 1847. Orchestral players stuck with simple system flutes for a lot longer of course.
What we do know is that stoelzel type instruments were rare here. The miltary continued to use keyed bugles for quite a while. This one is from 1842:
http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ujt/ujt3024.html
I was wondering if one of the reasons for the move away from having woodwind in bands is the problem of playing in all weathers with pads. Older woodwind instruments were simple system (six holes) with corks sometimes covering additional holes. Boehm system instruments have pads and I know this can be problematic in the rain. Boehm patented his system in 1847. Orchestral players stuck with simple system flutes for a lot longer of course.
Deano
Member
If my memory serves me correct, I think they were formed in 1816, they have just reformed after disbanding in the late 90's.
GordonH
Active Member
See this book from about page 19:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oolPwnvevRUC&lpg=PP1&dq=brass band&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q&f=false
Its not all there as its a preview but still lots of good information.
I knew the Distin's were behind the popularisation of brass instruments and they eventually sold out to Hawkes.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oolPwnvevRUC&lpg=PP1&dq=brass band&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q&f=false
Its not all there as its a preview but still lots of good information.
I knew the Distin's were behind the popularisation of brass instruments and they eventually sold out to Hawkes.
Thirteen Ball
Active Member
Does it also mention that they have the wrong name?
Slight digression but appropriate to a historical thread. If memory serves they were originally founded as one of the many regiments of foot guards. They were granted the title of "Grenadier Guards" as recognition for their achievement in beating back the Grenadier regiment of the French Imperial Guard at Waterloo.
Except they didn't. When the French Imperial Guard reached the British line and started to deploy - somewhat chaotically - they actually ended up facing the chasseur regiment....
The story goes that they genuinely thought they'd beaten the Grenadiers. (Any story that they deliberately attempted to mislead other companies around them has little base in fact.) It was only months or even years afterwards when the full story of the battle was being compiled that the mistake was discovered.
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Flyingscot1974
Member
Just for info...Driffield Band
Minutes have been found that state the band in Driffield was formed on 15th Dec 1828 as a wind band. They are recorded as playing for the Coronation of Queen Victoria in 1837, and also brass players from Driffield played in the first ever Brass Band contest in July 1845 at Burton Constable.
Driffield Town Band changed to a brass band in 1857.
Minutes have been found that state the band in Driffield was formed on 15th Dec 1828 as a wind band. They are recorded as playing for the Coronation of Queen Victoria in 1837, and also brass players from Driffield played in the first ever Brass Band contest in July 1845 at Burton Constable.
Driffield Town Band changed to a brass band in 1857.
Bass Trumpet
Active Member
Chickens......
StellaJohnson
Active Member
But Stalybridge brass band was not formed in 1809 which they seem to boast about.
Frontman
Member
I am lead to believe that Stalybridge Old Band was formed in 1809.
Not Stalybridge Brass Band.
StellaJohnson
Active Member
Frontman
Member
Sorry Stella, I was just pointing out that it was Stalybridge Old Band that was formed in 1809.
It is Stalybridge who say that they are the oldest Brass Band in the country, although proof has been supplied on this thread several times that it is incorrect.
The only way that this arguement can be settled is with accurate dating of the first manufacture of Brass instruments.
History I have found is that the keyed bugle was first patented by Joseph Halliday in 1811.
The invention of the keyed trumpet has been ascribed to the Viennese, Anton Weidinger, who is said to have constructed it in 1801.
The standard valve layout based on the action of three valves was invented in the 1830s.
Hope this assists.
It is Stalybridge who say that they are the oldest Brass Band in the country, although proof has been supplied on this thread several times that it is incorrect.
The only way that this arguement can be settled is with accurate dating of the first manufacture of Brass instruments.
History I have found is that the keyed bugle was first patented by Joseph Halliday in 1811.
The invention of the keyed trumpet has been ascribed to the Viennese, Anton Weidinger, who is said to have constructed it in 1801.
The standard valve layout based on the action of three valves was invented in the 1830s.
Hope this assists.
Will the Sec
Active Member
I think that some of the oldest dates must be taken "under advisement" (to put it delicately). There are about a hundred cricket clubs all claiming to have been founded "earlier than everybody else" (usually in a particular location), but there are large periods where no records are held and it is impossible to prove one way or the other whether a properly formulated organisation was extant. You cannot credibly claim existence of anything on the back of a lack of evidence to the contrary.
AEHOWGATE
Member
My evidence comes from The Stalybridge 100 yrs anniversary (1814-1914) book, which, if you care to read, states the facts I mentioned..... A copy of this book can be found in stockport library, or the Harry Mortimer research facility at Salford. I am not out to change history for anybody's gain.. Just state researched facts.
Thirteen Ball
Active Member
With all due respect, 'facts' are dangerous things in history.
A few minutes research shows that Keyed Bugles came along in the early 1830s, and that saxhorn instruments were generally patented from around 1844 onwards, so the concept of any band existing as what we know today as a brass band before then can't really be accurate.
Doesn't necessarily mean the organisation can't date it's existence from an earlier date though. The brazilian football club Flamengo celebrated their centenery in 1995 despite the fact that in 1895 they were actually a rowing club and only started playing football in 1911. But it's still the same organisation, so the anniversary is justified.
So yes, Stalybridge may be one of the oldest bands around - but they can't have been a brass band when they were formed. Does the book contain any information as to when in the band's history the transition to saxhorn instrumentation took place?
A few minutes research shows that Keyed Bugles came along in the early 1830s, and that saxhorn instruments were generally patented from around 1844 onwards, so the concept of any band existing as what we know today as a brass band before then can't really be accurate.
Doesn't necessarily mean the organisation can't date it's existence from an earlier date though. The brazilian football club Flamengo celebrated their centenery in 1995 despite the fact that in 1895 they were actually a rowing club and only started playing football in 1911. But it's still the same organisation, so the anniversary is justified.
So yes, Stalybridge may be one of the oldest bands around - but they can't have been a brass band when they were formed. Does the book contain any information as to when in the band's history the transition to saxhorn instrumentation took place?
Hi guys.
Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but I've been wondering about this qustion for some time now.
I play in Haslemere Town Band, which was established in 1837 (though has some roots before that). The band has been continuous, never breaking up in either World War or at any other time. It has been a brass band from the beginning.
Of course, it's hard to give any definite date of any band, but which/how many bands are definitely older as continual bands that started off with just brass?
Thanks.
Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but I've been wondering about this qustion for some time now.
I play in Haslemere Town Band, which was established in 1837 (though has some roots before that). The band has been continuous, never breaking up in either World War or at any other time. It has been a brass band from the beginning.
Of course, it's hard to give any definite date of any band, but which/how many bands are definitely older as continual bands that started off with just brass?
Thanks.
I think you will struggle to find a precise date as most of these bands seem to have gradually evolved into all brass over time, although contesting may have forced / speeded up standardisation.
As you can see from earlier posts in this thread even dyke who's history is probably better documented than most got all mixed up and ended up having a couple of centenarys within a short space of time!
As you can see from earlier posts in this thread even dyke who's history is probably better documented than most got all mixed up and ended up having a couple of centenarys within a short space of time!
Brassbones
Member
Pictures of Besses around their inception certainly show woodwind ... and ophiclides!