Upper register fingering
- Thread starter Seedhouse
- Start date
Rob
Member
C# can also be done on 2, D on 1 or open, Eb on 2 or 2+3, you can do E's on open, 1+2, or 2 on it's own, depends on which fingering you feel comfortable with (although E's aren't nice notes on Euph) then F's and above you can just do on the normal fingerings that you would play for the notes an octave down. A lot of these notes can also be played (maybe not in tune) on open as well (esp. above top F) Hope that helps a bit! 
Pick a valve and lip it?
In the upper register the harmonics get quite close together, so it's down to your ear and your lip, to some extent. Think natural trumpets, and how they can "fake" almost chromatic in the high register.
There's an argument there for picking the valve combination that help you play it most in tune.
In the upper register the harmonics get quite close together, so it's down to your ear and your lip, to some extent. Think natural trumpets, and how they can "fake" almost chromatic in the high register.
There's an argument there for picking the valve combination that help you play it most in tune.
Darth_Tuba
Active Member
When you start getting to top C and above all sorts of fingerings become possible, as Keppler says, it's all to with Harmonics being closer etc. Top C works fine on first valve a lot of the time... which can often cause probs when aiming for Ds! hehe
GJG
Well-Known Member
The best way of dealing with upper register fingering (and the same rules apply to all brass instruments) is to familiarise oneself with the principles of the Harmonic Series.
ie: Starting on the lowest note and working upwards, with no valves down you have Pedal C, C, G, C, E, G, (a very flat) Bb, (top) C, D, E, (a very sharp) F, G, and upwards, theoretically at least another octave, although not really relevant to brass band playing. The point is, if you depress the 2nd valve (or go out one shift on a trombone), you have the exact same sequence of notes, but transposed down a semitone; 1st valve, down another semitone, 1st+2nd another, and so on. Once you become familiar with these patterns, the various options for upper register fingerings will become clear, together with many alternative fingerings for lower down in the register (not forgetting that with 4-valve instruments there are even more possible options for mid-register fingerings, although there are usually attendant intonation problems (with multiple-plug bass trombones, the options become so complicated that only a handful of players in the world actually understand all of them!)).
It is nevertheless true that the best option for any given note will vary according to the make/model of instrument, mouthpiece, individual embouchure/oral cavity characteristics etc., etc. The only real solution is to experiment, but it helps if you understand the principles behind the alternatives.
Hope this helps, sorry about the lecture!!!
Regards,
G.
ie: Starting on the lowest note and working upwards, with no valves down you have Pedal C, C, G, C, E, G, (a very flat) Bb, (top) C, D, E, (a very sharp) F, G, and upwards, theoretically at least another octave, although not really relevant to brass band playing. The point is, if you depress the 2nd valve (or go out one shift on a trombone), you have the exact same sequence of notes, but transposed down a semitone; 1st valve, down another semitone, 1st+2nd another, and so on. Once you become familiar with these patterns, the various options for upper register fingerings will become clear, together with many alternative fingerings for lower down in the register (not forgetting that with 4-valve instruments there are even more possible options for mid-register fingerings, although there are usually attendant intonation problems (with multiple-plug bass trombones, the options become so complicated that only a handful of players in the world actually understand all of them!)).
It is nevertheless true that the best option for any given note will vary according to the make/model of instrument, mouthpiece, individual embouchure/oral cavity characteristics etc., etc. The only real solution is to experiment, but it helps if you understand the principles behind the alternatives.
Hope this helps, sorry about the lecture!!!
Regards,
G.
there's also an argument for different fingerings for different purposes..
if you're running busy passages in the gods, you might be better off to pick a valve and wiggle it (talk to a bass player about the exact technique of this, they've been doing it for years)
In other situations, a note will sound differently on different valve combinations (bright, more "woolly") but still be tunable with the lip.
Andy, I agree about as little tubing as possible (unless you're playing a mile sharp) In fact, I've used the 2nd valve alone for A on the first leger line above when tone-trilling on G. I find I get a cleaner trill if I work on lipping it in, than messing with all those valve things...
if you're running busy passages in the gods, you might be better off to pick a valve and wiggle it (talk to a bass player about the exact technique of this, they've been doing it for years)
In other situations, a note will sound differently on different valve combinations (bright, more "woolly") but still be tunable with the lip.
Andy, I agree about as little tubing as possible (unless you're playing a mile sharp) In fact, I've used the 2nd valve alone for A on the first leger line above when tone-trilling on G. I find I get a cleaner trill if I work on lipping it in, than messing with all those valve things...
Darth_Tuba
Active Member
Keppler said:
Well, the secret is actually a combination of fast waggling of first and second valves and slow movement of the fourth valve for the ultimate bluff! I never do this though... especially not on Masquerade :roll:
GJG
Well-Known Member
So far as using the shortest possible length of tubing is concerned, I guess it's a case of the exception proving the rule; for example, I believe it's quite common practice for flugel players to use 1/2/3 to play top-Bb, in order to obtain the best possible intonation........
G.
G.
Dave Euph
Member
Heh, pretty much everything has been mentioned that I was going to say. So the main thing is to just find a valve combination that is A) in tune (although when that high it starts to get tough to tell) and B) naturally leads up from the previous note. The aim neing to reduce the length of tubing as you get higher, making reaching the notes that little bit easier.
If you have a trigger on your 4th valve then you can get anything in tune. Just play each note on all the combinations and see what it sounds like,when you are happy with the sound then start fiddling with the tuning on your main slide. Its like cornet players playing top G and D on 1/3 and using the triggers to get perfect intonation. Just a case of trying every option really.
Accidental
Supporting Member
Not much I can add to all the above really! The fingerings I found easiest on euph/bari were C open, C# 2nd, D open and then alternate 2/0 from there....and hoping seemed to help too! I guess its just what workes best for you.
MoominDave
Well-Known Member
Well, most things have been said already, but I can't see a complete list of fingerings that use the smallest amount of tube that will be moderately in tune from C on up, so here goes:
top C open
C# 2
D open
D# 2
E open
F 1
F# 2
G open
G# 1+2
A 1
Bb 2
B open
double C open
C# open
D open
D# open
E open
F 1
F# 2
G open
G# 2
A open
Bb 2
B open
triple C open
C# open
D open
D# open
E open
F open
F# open
G open
G# open
A open
Bb open
B open
and open for evermore, amen.
That should keep you going for a while...
I'm not laying claim to this range (my solid range on the Bass Trom peters out at about a super G - have a listen to some of the sound clips on "Emb_Enh"'s website though...), but the principles for calculating it are simple enough; it is, as GJG says, all to do with the acoustic harmonic series:
The nth harmonic is at n times the frequency of the 1st. So Bottom C (2nd harmonic) is twice the frequency of pedal C (1st harmonic), while middle G (3rd harmonic) is 3 times pedal C's frequency, and so on. To calculate exactly where a given harmonic comes in the octave, we need to find out how much of the octave in question it comes through. So, say, to work out the 5th harmonic (which we know and love as that slightly flat E in the fourth space), we say:
What ratio of frequencies does this note bear to the C immediately below it? Well, it is the 5th harmonic, and any C will be a power of 2 (i.e. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, etc...) harmonic (because an octave jump up is a doubling of frequency), so the next C down will be the 4th. The ratio of the frequencies of the 5th to the 4th harmonics will be 5/4 = 1.25.
To relate this to the doubling of frequency required to rise an octave, we need to find out how much of the doubling we need to do to get there. Basically, what power do we need to raise 2 to to get 1.25? You can do this on your Windows calculator - just select 'View' then 'Scientific', then type '1.25' followed by the 'log' button. Then divide this number by the result of '2' followed by the 'log' button. For those who know logarithms, this is taking the logarithm to the base 2 of 1.25. If you then multiply this number by 12 (number of equal semitones in the octave), you can see where you are by the following rule:
0 = lower C
1 = C#
2 = D
3 = D#
4 = E
5 = F
6 = F#
7 = G
8 = G#
9 = A
10 = Bb
11 = B
12 = upper C
Our 5th harmonic becomes about 3.86, or an E which is flat by about a seventh of a semitone, which is why we always have to be careful about playing it on open. Try it with other numbers - this is how I worked out the fingerings above!
Apologies for the ramble,
Dave
top C open
C# 2
D open
D# 2
E open
F 1
F# 2
G open
G# 1+2
A 1
Bb 2
B open
double C open
C# open
D open
D# open
E open
F 1
F# 2
G open
G# 2
A open
Bb 2
B open
triple C open
C# open
D open
D# open
E open
F open
F# open
G open
G# open
A open
Bb open
B open
and open for evermore, amen.
That should keep you going for a while...
I'm not laying claim to this range (my solid range on the Bass Trom peters out at about a super G - have a listen to some of the sound clips on "Emb_Enh"'s website though...), but the principles for calculating it are simple enough; it is, as GJG says, all to do with the acoustic harmonic series:
The nth harmonic is at n times the frequency of the 1st. So Bottom C (2nd harmonic) is twice the frequency of pedal C (1st harmonic), while middle G (3rd harmonic) is 3 times pedal C's frequency, and so on. To calculate exactly where a given harmonic comes in the octave, we need to find out how much of the octave in question it comes through. So, say, to work out the 5th harmonic (which we know and love as that slightly flat E in the fourth space), we say:
What ratio of frequencies does this note bear to the C immediately below it? Well, it is the 5th harmonic, and any C will be a power of 2 (i.e. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, etc...) harmonic (because an octave jump up is a doubling of frequency), so the next C down will be the 4th. The ratio of the frequencies of the 5th to the 4th harmonics will be 5/4 = 1.25.
To relate this to the doubling of frequency required to rise an octave, we need to find out how much of the doubling we need to do to get there. Basically, what power do we need to raise 2 to to get 1.25? You can do this on your Windows calculator - just select 'View' then 'Scientific', then type '1.25' followed by the 'log' button. Then divide this number by the result of '2' followed by the 'log' button. For those who know logarithms, this is taking the logarithm to the base 2 of 1.25. If you then multiply this number by 12 (number of equal semitones in the octave), you can see where you are by the following rule:
0 = lower C
1 = C#
2 = D
3 = D#
4 = E
5 = F
6 = F#
7 = G
8 = G#
9 = A
10 = Bb
11 = B
12 = upper C
Our 5th harmonic becomes about 3.86, or an E which is flat by about a seventh of a semitone, which is why we always have to be careful about playing it on open. Try it with other numbers - this is how I worked out the fingerings above!
Apologies for the ramble,
Dave
Accidental
Supporting Member
You mean I've been doing it right all along and didn't even realise?!!!! :lol:
For me it's
Top C = Open
C# = 2nd
D = Open (long note) or 1 (if it's in a run)
D# = 2nd
E = 1st + 2nd then play as high as i can (i hate this note)
F = 1st
F# = 2nd
G = Open
the thing is if you make too many notes open, it becomes risky as almost every note up there can be played with open, and the margin of error for pitching decreases exponentially as you go higher...
TEd
Top C = Open
C# = 2nd
D = Open (long note) or 1 (if it's in a run)
D# = 2nd
E = 1st + 2nd then play as high as i can (i hate this note)
F = 1st
F# = 2nd
G = Open
the thing is if you make too many notes open, it becomes risky as almost every note up there can be played with open, and the margin of error for pitching decreases exponentially as you go higher...
TEd
Australian Euphonium
New Member
MoominDave said:
The info above is really usefull - thanks alot.
Question though - Aren't bass trombone players supposed to boast about how low they can get??!!!!!!!!
Super g seems awful high for someone whos job it is to shake the shit out of the walls of the concert hall!!!!