The "poaching" debate

[johnmartin]

I understand why the other thread has been locked and fully support your actions Roger however it was starting to head off into a more general debate on, for want of a better word, "poaching" of players. Here are a few thoughts off the top of my head which are intended to stimulate debate on this subject.

It is always disappointing for a band, especially in the lower sections, to lose a player to another band. This disappointment is made worse if it is a player on whom you have spent a lot of time and trouble training up and maybe looked upon as 'one for the futre', someone you could start to build a band around. They always seem to think the grass is greener on the other side but it more often than not isn't.

I have had instances of higher section bands signing one of our players and using them for a specific contest before subsequently signing, from a different band, the player they were after for the seat in the first place. Sometimes they need to drop a card to make room and guess who gets dropped. This is no good to us though as the six month rule forbids that player coming back and they invariably go elsewhere or drop out of banding disillusioned by it all.

I believe that the guesting regulations have exarcebated this problem. I am always wary of bands who request to guest any of our players as I always worry about what sort of persuasion they will be subjected to. I know this goes on because it happens to me every time I guest for another band. Am I being paranoid or is it just a healthy distrust.

Why is it that these issues always seem to come to the fore before contests and usually the importants ones like the regionals. Is it time to look at a transfer window type arrangement or would this prove too difficult to administer

The only slight item of controversy I will touch on is that this sort of behaviour seems to be more prevalent amongst Championship and first section bands. Is it because that bands at this level naturally gravitate away from being a "fun" band and more towards the "serious" end of the spectrum. To maintain their position they often need to get a player in quickly when vacancies arise. Of course at the very highest level the top bands usually have no problem finding players.

In instances of players whose work may send them away for longish periods of time, but who wish to remain with their own registered band e.g. my work often send me to England but not for long enough to justify moving there full time, could we instigate a loan policy like in football where a player can be on loan to another band but remain registered with their home band. This could also be used to allow championship and first section bands to farm out their own registered players who don't normally get a seat on the contest stage. The band holding the registration can then recall the player should they have an emergency with one of their regulars. Is this a workable idea?


Whilst it may seem that I am moaning I should point out that I believe firmly that if a player wants to go then we, as a band, should not stand in their way. There is no way I personally would want to rely on an unhappy player as their commitment will probably not be as good as those that want to be there. I also accept that there are circumstances which arise where a player may leave your band to go elsewhere due to work or family commitments.

Hope this starts a healthy debate on the issues with the current transfer system. I look forward to reading your comments.

 

[Dave Euph]

Some good points there, and I can understand your frustration. It is inevitable the best players will be eventually approached and asked to play in higher up bands.

But of course, there is evidence to suggest that the best players staying at their local bands can do the band a world of good (e.g. Mike Howley and Rothwell Temps).

About the loaning of players, I can see your point, but what I can also see is bands progressing up the ranks due to 'loaning' several top-class players and then getting to, say, the top-section, and all of a sudden losing half their band because the loans are recalled.

 

[George BB]

Is there any need for a registration system at all? All it seems to do is cause problems. Would it not be more sense for anyone to be free to play with the band or bands that they want to?

 

[ploughboy]

I'm not quite sure what you mean about Mick Howley Dave? He played with Rothwell on top Euph from the 3rd section to the Top section, he simply progressed at the same rate as the band, Either Mick or Rothwell would still be where they are without each other because they are both class acts.

I Just disagree with the word "poaching". All anyone conected with a band can do is ask someone else if there interested, If they say yes or no it's up to them. Poaching makes it sound like were removing players with force (from a wood) to join our band or else....

It's only a hobby for the vast majority of players and they should go and play where they are happy, Next we'll be asked not to advertise for players just wait until they come along and say "have you got a cornet seat?" that would be ridiculas.

 

[Trigger]

Is there any need for a registration system at all? All it seems to do is cause problems. Would it not be more sense for anyone to be free to play with the band or bands that they want to?

I think that there is a definate need for a registration system. There would be chaos if the registration system was removed, because you would have people playing for loads of different bands and there would be no basis for the contest. I mean you don't see footballers in the football league playing for Man Utd one day and then saying s*d it i think I'll play for Man City today!! Yes people should be allowed to play for whatever band they like, but there has to be some control over it otherwise it would hit the fan.

As for poaching, I don't agree with it. There are some bands out there that actively seek out players and poach them from their band, by bugging them and convincing them their band is cr*p, when they probably didn't have a problem before. :? :?

 

[tim]

I don't think theres anything wrong with asking another player to play for your band. They can say no if they want to. But I think poaching for poaching's sake is terrible.

There is a band in the north-east that I feel are poaching players just to disrupt the other bands. This paticular band has a full band of mainly excellent players but they still try to poach other players just to disrupt the other bands which I find absolutely shocking!!!!!!

 

[WoodenFlugel]

There are alot of points raised here, all relevant.

Regarding "poaching" the one thing I have to say on that subject is that you will never successfully poach a player who is happy where they are. I have been "approached" by other bands in the past and there was very little they could do to persude me to join because I was happy where I was.

The "loan" idea is interesting but I don't think it's that workable, the registration rules limit the number of registered players in a band so there aren't so many players affected anyway, and how do you police who is a "regular" member? I'm sure we would quite like to borrow Roger Webster if he's available!! How do you distigush him from Black Dyke's 3rd 3rd cornet player?

 

[Okiedokie of Oz]

while Poaching isn't too much of a problem out herein the bush, I can see why it worries some bands. Perhaps a "zone" system may need to be enforced in areas where there are multiple bands. Athletes aand sportsmen do it, right down to the juvenile sections.

 

[Dave Euph]

I'm not quite sure what you mean about Mick Howley Dave? He played with Rothwell on top Euph from the 3rd section to the Top section, he simply progressed at the same rate as the band, Either Mick or Rothwell would still be where they are without each other because they are both class acts.

Fair enough, you know him better so you'd know. But having a class player like him in the band must have surely spurred them on to great things. Meh.

 

[Accidental]

you will never successfully poach a player who is happy where they are.

Absolutely! I've read so many posts over the last few weeks going on and on about the "poaching" bands as though they are evil and conniving.... but at the end of the day its the players who choose to go.

IMO there's nothing wrong with a band letting a player know they're interested in a player, and any players has the right to change bands if they feel its the right thing for them to do. Obviously in an ideal world it would be done with minimum disruption to contests etc though!

 

[Liz Courts]

We've lost a lot of players to higher section bands. It really does hold the band back, and it's annoying having trained up so many beginners, only to see them move on.

But it is the players choice to leave, and the players that we have lost have moved onto having successful careers with their instruments, which probably wouldn't have happened without the experience of playing in those better bands .

 

[Steve]

I too disagree strongly with the word poaching. I have had offers from loads of bands while I have been signed with another but never have i even entertained the idea of transfering if i was happy at my current band. This is a hobbie and I have every intention of enjoying it to the full, if I am not enjoying it and get the chance to try something different I will take it. As for the higher section bands "using" players there is little to be said. It reflects badly on the bands in question and with the current loopholes in the registry system I am sure that player could go back to their old band as long as no bridges were burned

 

[ScrapingtheBottom]

I have found generally that it is the players who have been brought up through a band's training system that seem more likely to leave, maybe they just want a change of scene.

Loaning might be a good idea if you restricted it to the sections on either side and to say 5 players max per band.

Luckily for me I'm not good enough to get poached.

We lost a player recently because he was offered a new cornet and lessons to join another band, IMHO this is just bribery and I don't like it.

 

[jambo]

I don't think theres anything wrong with asking another player to play for your band. They can say no if they want to. But I think poaching for poaching's sake is terrible.

There is a band in the north-east that I feel are poaching players just to disrupt the other bands. This paticular band has a full band of mainly excellent players but they still try to poach other players just to disrupt the other bands which I find absolutely shocking!!!!!!

Are you totally numb?

First of all, any band who is "poaching" another player clearly doesn't have a full band or has some one moving aside for a better player so that their band is improved.

Anyone brain dead enough to think that a band would poach players just to disrupt other bands needs to seek help...are you paranoid or what? From recent experience in one of the more successful bands in the North East at the moment, if we're after a player, its because we want them in the band!

I think you should just go back to practicing instead of cooking up conspiracy theories in that magical little world of yours...maybe you'd get poached then eh and stop complaining!

 

[jambo]

? I'm sure we would quite like to borrow Roger Webster if he's available!! How do you distigush him from Black Dyke's 3rd 3rd cornet player?

He's got a tash!

 

[Aidan]

or used to...

 

[jambo]

true

 

[Will the Sec]

What's the difference between poaching and saying, "Will, how do you fancy coming and playing with us?"

I've politely turned down many such inquiries over the years. (And told one individual that my answer was equivqlent to "Acton's Rectum" - similar to Acton's Dictum, but not as polite. Just as profound though)

No egg jokes, please.

 

[ScrapingtheBottom]

What's the difference between poaching and saying, "Will, how do you fancy coming and playing with us?"

I've politely turned down many such inquiries over the years. (And told one individual that my answer was equivqlent to "Acton's Rectum" - similar to Acton's Dictum, but not as polite. Just as profound though)

No egg jokes, please.

How about: "if you come and play with us we'll give you a new [insert name of instrument or possible more scandalous object]"

 

[johnmartin]

Seeing as I started this debate I think I should make my own position clear. I apologise for using the term "poaching" when what I was really referring to are "current transfer practices".

I have no problem with a representative of a band approaching a player and asking if they would like to join them especially if the band making the approach are of a higher standard and it would benefit the player in question. What I take issue with is the way that these things always tend to be sprung on you usually before a major contest. here's another couple of points for discusion.

1. Why can't a transfer be instigated by the requesting band secretary approaching the other band secretary and asking if they can speak to one of their players. Obviously this could result in a swift rebuff or the other secretary may drag their heels on the matter. The rules should be crafted in such a way as to make the other band secretary duty bound to inform the player of interest. Failure to do this within an appropriate timescale e.g. one week from initial contact should result in penalties being placed upon the band e.g. suspension of the player from the next contest. This is how things are done in football, direct contact with a player, commonly called tapping, is forbidden by the rules of the game.

2. After a transfer has gone through there should be a cooling off period within which the player in question may decide they have made a big mistake and would like to return to their original band. If this option were exercised then the transfer would be struck from the records as if it had never occurred. If the player contests for their new band within this cooling off period then that should be taken as tacit acceptance that the player is happy with their new band and the transfer is final.


One more point for any legal eagles out there. Would the current transfer regulations, especially the six month rule stand up to a challenge under European human rights or civil liberties laws?