The 2008 North West Regrading debate

bertiebass

New Member
i'm in third section this year and I really don't give a monkeys about the regrading of dobx. Its up to my band and others to raise there game. So get over it and good luck dobx I hope you do well and take no notice of the negative comments.
 

4thmandown

Member
Well done to Dobcross for getting this far and best of luck at the Areas.

I think that some of you are creating a typhoon in a teacup to say the least. The Area commitee have made the decision anyway. Besides it is 25 players plus MD working together that determine the strength of a band. You could put 25 "championship standard" (whatever that means) players in a band, but they might only make an adequate 1st, or even 2nd section band if they aren't pointed in the right direction.
 

johnmartin

Active Member
I've followed this one with some interest but purposefully stayed out of it. However, can someone enlighten me as to one point. If Dobcross win the third section they would not necessarily be automatically promoted, as happens in Scotland, it would be taken as a cumulative over the last three years results. If they do win the area then the only guaranteed route to automatic promotion is for them to subsequently win the third section at Harrogate.

If I am correct in the above then surely Dobcross being in the third section should not be a problem to those bands already knocking on the door of promotion anyway.
 

johnmartin

Active Member
You could put 25 "championship standard" (whatever that means) players in a band, but they might only make an adequate 1st, or even 2nd section band if they aren't pointed in the right direction.
You are quite correct. My own band dropped into the 4th section in 2001. We changed MD and over the next four years the same core of players, with very few additions and certainly no corner seat changes, have lifted themselves back up into the 1st section.
 

The Wherryman

Active Member
I've followed this one with some interest but purposefully stayed out of it. However, can someone enlighten me as to one point. If Dobcross win the third section they would not necessarily be automatically promoted, as happens in Scotland, it would be taken as a cumulative over the last three years results. If they do win the area then the only guaranteed route to automatic promotion is for them to subsequently win the third section at Harrogate.

If I am correct in the above then surely Dobcross being in the third section should not be a problem to those bands already knocking on the door of promotion anyway.

Then is it possible to calculate what position Dobcross has to achieve in the Regionals in order to be promoted?
 

stevetrom

Well-Known Member
IDobcross win the third section they would not necessarily be automatically promoted, as happens in Scotland.

slightly off topic but what are the promotion/relegation rules in Scotland?

I would be in favour of a straight 1/2 up/down system, that way less of a big deal would be made of what section a band is in, perform well and you go up perform badly you go dwon, much simpler.
 

Tomhaslam

Member
I've just got back from France where I've been conducting my band Friezland and am absolutely flabbergasted over the amount of bad feeling over Dobxs regrading!

I joined the band just over a year ago having left Leyland due to the detrimental affect extra traveling was having on my wallet. As has been explained by a number of people the band was in quite a state having only eight players and no conductor. Shortly after Dennis came back as MD and the band slowly but surely started to fill up. We started to contemplate competing just last October/November time and certainly not in the championship section. So we regraded which is not against the rules or (to state the obvious) we wouldn't have been aloud to do it.

A list of players names including myself, Sue Whitby, George Adamson, Paul Conchie and Janet and Howard Taylor were submitted to the regional committee and it was decided that we were to compete in the third section. Even then we had doubts about whether the band would compete as we still had five vacancies.

All we've done since then is fill those positions with the best players we can, as any band would. No underhand tactics have been used: We've not replaced any players with better ones or premeditated any signings and hidden them from the regional committee. The suggestion that we sent players off to register with lower section bands is frankly ludicrous and Worthy of a soap opera! (What would we achieve by that? are we going to spit the £200 prize money at Blackpool?)

What has happened is a tremendous amount of hard work by every player in the band and the vast improvement we have made is a tribute to every single one of them. The experience I've have had with the band over the last year, helping young players coming from nowhere and helping them to improve beyond recognition, along with watching Dobx get slowly back on its feet has been fantastic. Win loose or draw playing with this new Dobx band making it's first appearance on the contest platform and taking Friezland to my first area as a conductor will make Sunday the proudest day in my banding career and that includes winning the nationals with Leyland in 2005.

Good luck to every band on Sunday and just to warn anyone who may be expecting a pint off Dennis, he's already told me he's not taking any money!!
 

Fazed Song

New Member
Tom... How can you be so shocked at reaction. Im not saying it is right to have a go at DobX but it amaizes me that you cannot see why some folk have taken exception to this. I personally hope the band do well... I genuinely do, but even I can see where the bad feeling has come from, with the players you have, competing in the 3rd section.
 

johnmartin

Active Member
slightly off topic but what are the promotion/relegation rules in Scotland?
Relegation is exactly the same as the English and Welsh regions, average over three years. For promotion its simply finish in the top two at the Scottish Championships and you're promoted.
 

Tomhaslam

Member
Tom... How can you be so shocked at reaction. Im not saying it is right to have a go at DobX but it amaizes me that you cannot see why some folk have taken exception to this. I personally hope the band do well... I genuinely do, but even I can see where the bad feeling has come from, with the players you have, competing in the 3rd section.

Because we've done nothing wrong! How can you take exception to something before you've found out the exact circumstances in which it's happened. As to the players we've got we've just landed on our feet. As I've said non of this was premeditated in anyway and after the year the bands had we're just happy to be competing.

I've just noticed that Dentons new signings an RNCM student and an ex YBS player but but that doesn't bother me because they are competing against Friezland. In fact we have an ex-pro percussionist at Friezland yet that's not caused us a problem. Were we at Dobx supposed to refuse these players because they were too good?! If people feel so strongly maybe they should instigate the introduction a rule saying you're only aloud to sign players who have never played with a higher section band. It wouldn't do much for the promotion/relegation system though!

If you want to take exception to anything try the Rules. Because Dobx have stuck to them to the letter.
 

flugtastic

Member
I've just noticed that Dentons new signings an RNCM student and an ex YBS player but but that doesn't bother me because they are competing against Friezland.

In Dentons defence

yes denton have signed 1 x top section player who is sat 3rd man down, and he has been at every rehersal iv been at since well before preston and he has every intention of staying and helpin the band improve.. he has helped me a lot and given our principle cornet player a lot of guidence.
the RNCM student has signed for us because one of our resident bass players who has been signed wit us for about 6 months if not longer (who is either at RNCM or Salford studying Music) cant do the contest for personal reasons.
But we have also lost our sop player from Salford studying Music and a Euph Player who is at RNCM.

We had the discussion after band quite a few weeks ago about how young our band was. just of the top of my head we have 15 under 20s playing which leaves 12 over 20's (2 percussionists), Compared to Uppermill who i dont think have an under 18 play for them any more. (i could be wrong i dont know who they have signed on horn :D )

You look at bands throughout the 4th section, yes they do have one or two "Higher Standard" players, but not 14 x championship players.

I can fully understand why people are kicking up a fuss about the band being regraded becuase it was up to the conductor to set the standard. Yes the Regional Commity had the oppertunity to come and listen to the band but that was up to them.
If I was playing for a 3rd section band and we came 4th im sure my band would appeal against it but i guess im lucky not to have to be in that situation :D
 

Beesa

Member
If you want to take exception to anything try the Rules. Because Dobx have stuck to them to the letter.

I see the problem here is the committee regrading, nothing against the band whatsoever.

From my own calculations:

Taking the points for 2006 and 2007, Dobcross will start the contest with 18 points, along with Boarshurst Silver, Greenall's, Formby and Ramsey Town. There are 7 bands above them with 7, 9, 10, 11, 16, 16 and 17 points.

So more or less impossible to gain promotion unless the band win and at the same time, for example, the following bands came lower than:
Flixton 12th
Oldham Band (Lees) 10th
Whitworth Vale & Healy 9th
Pemberton Old Wigan 'B' 8th
etc.

(nahh, it ain't gonna happen is it!)

I could go on, illustrating the scenarion for Dobcross to be positioned 2nd, which would give them promotion too, but again the likelihood of gaining low enough points ahead of the others is minimal.

So it would seem that unless the committee step in Dobcross will have another year in the Third Section even if they did win. Also, because the top few bands have very low points in the first place, there is a good chance that Dobcross could stay in the Third Section for 2009 as well, even if they did win the Section then by a country mile.....

Which is why I feel it is better for a band to find the natural level which would be to compete-or-withdraw (in the Championship Section) for 2008 and be relegated to the First Section. Then the same for 2009.

Which would likely result in the Band being Second Section by 2010. Same as if they compete in the Third Section for 2008 and 2009.
 
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Which is why I feel it is better for a band to find the natural level which would be to compete-or-withdraw (in the Championship Section) for 2008 and be relegated to the First Section. Then the same for 2009.

But then the band would not be competing at all until 2010 because the pieces are way too hard for them. The band, after alot of hard work, are now the right standard for the 3rd section test piece. The band would much rather have a go at competing with a piece they can work hard on and play than just not being able to even attempt the pieces and not contesting at all.
 

stevetrom

Well-Known Member
....The band, after alot of hard work, are now the right standard for the 3rd section test piece.

we'll all know that when we see the results :D

and 'IF' you win by 3/4 points will you appeal to be immediately promoted as you were obviously regraded incorrectly?


The band would much rather have a go at competing with a piece they can work hard on and play than just not being able to even attempt the pieces and not contesting at all.

I see what you are saying but the devil's advocate in me would say, could this be also taken as "the band would much rather have a go at competing at a level they might win at"?

if all bands took this kind of view would we end up with 6 top section, 8 1st section, 22 2nd sectiopn, 32 3rd section,etc. ?
 

The Wherryman

Active Member
It appears that the majority of posters are from the North West Region (and understandably so). From what I can gather, Dobcross has not broken any rule and the NW committee decision is what is really being questioned.

Perhaps the axe-grinders would do everyone a favour and take it up with the committee before the regionals, otherwise, if Dobcross win and go to Harrogate, this issue could escalate to nationwide proportions as other regional 3rd section winners come up against what is being perceived by some as a Championship, or at least a 1st section, band.

Alternatively, they could practice like mad to try to beat DobX on the platform, after all they are only rated as third favourite on the tMP predictions page ;-)
 

Pav

Member
if Dobcross win and go to Harrogate, this issue could escalate to nationwide proportions as other regional 3rd section winners come up against what is being perceived by some as a Championship, or at least a 1st section, band.
;-)

Might even make the 6 o' clock news - Dobxgate. ;)

Can't believe some of the dross that's been spouted on this thread - judging by their comments, a good proportion of people on here would have preferred the band to have folded, rather than be regraded.

Future's bright for banding then!
 

johnmartin

Active Member
if all bands took this kind of view would we end up with 6 top section, 8 1st section, 22 2nd sectiopn, 32 3rd section,etc. ?
And is that a bad thing?

Isn't it better for a band to find its correct level rather than to struggle to survive in a section which may be of too high a standard. In Scotland the top section title has been passed around the same three bands, with little exception, for nigh on twenty years. I'm sure if you checked the results archive you would find a similar pattern repeated across the country.

The section sizes were laid down many years ago and were pretty arbritary; based on an even distribution of bands in an area rather than on the ability of those bands.
 

stevetrom

Well-Known Member
And is that a bad thing?

yes

would you go to a contest if only 3 bands were playing?

Isn't it better for a band to find its correct level rather than to struggle to survive in a section which may be of too high a standard. In Scotland the top section title has been passed around the same three bands, with little exception, for nigh on twenty years. I'm sure if you checked the results archive you would find a similar pattern repeated across the country.
.


apply that logic to football and the Premier League would consists of Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool & Arsenal and the Scottish Premier League just Celtic & Rangers.

What I was trying to question was, is the band picking a section which they think they may be able to win, rather than a section in which they would be a mid-table band?
 

hellyfrost

Member
yes

would you go to a contest if only 3 bands were playing?




apply that logic to football and the Premier League would consists of Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool & Arsenal and the Scottish Premier League just Celtic & Rangers.

What I was trying to question was, is the band picking a section which they think they may be able to win, rather than a section in which they would be a mid-table band?

As previously stated on SEVERAL occasions, at the time we applied for entry to the third section, the band were actually WELL below that standard. We chose third section because it would give us something to work towards. Why can't you people just wait for Sunday's results? Surely, a little patience wouldn't go amiss here and you'll all see if we are in fact graded correctly!!

120 posts all about us!?! Well I guess all publicity is good publicity!!!:clap:

See you at the bar!:biggrin:
 

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