Sweet Caroline

David Broad

Active Member
Sweet Caroline has been chosen as a song for the Jubilee apparently,
I have an arrangement of this for Brass Band on MUSESCORE which is a free download if anyone is interested.
See Sweet Caroline - Brass Band [Sweet Caroline - Brass Band] Its also on YouTube as Broadband Music if you want to listen and don't have the Free Musescore account. Its very much the Football version.. It is free. everything except 3rd Cornet as Chedworth Silver Band doesn't have one. Double up the 2nds.
Please download it and try it. David Broad Bandmaster Chedworth Silver Band
 
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KenIrvin

Member
Sweet Caroline has been chosen as a song for the Jubilee apparently,
I have an arrangement of this for Brass Band on MUSESCORE which is a free download if anyone is interested.
See Sweet Caroline - Brass Band [Sweet Caroline - Brass Band] Its also on YouTube as Broadband Music if you want to listen and don't have the Free Musescore account. Its very much the Football version.. It is free. everything except 3rd Cornet as Chedworth Silver Band doesn't have one. Double up the 2nds.
Please download it and try it. David Broad Bandmaster Chedworth Silver Band
Thanks David. It is free but I had to sign up to a free trial to get it.
 

David Broad

Active Member
How does the 'football version' differ from the original version, please?
Neil Sang "Sweet Caroline------- Good times never seemed.
Footie version "Sweet Caroline Woah, Woah, Woah, Good times never seemed. I put "Woah Woah Woah," for just about the whole band, melody included not just some of the accompaniment.
It's supposed to be something you can stick up at practice of a Thursday, Play it straight through straight away give it two runs through and play it at the weekend, lets face it most folks only have one practice before the Jubilee. Get folks singing along and after you can bin it without breaking the bank. Pennine Music have a different version in hard copy for about £20 if you can't download mine or want it printed on decent paper to keep.
 

David Broad

Active Member
Thanks David. It is free but I had to sign up to a free trial to get it.
It's a good tool, I still use the 2.6 as its more band score friendly and I now have the Pro version, but the basic Musecore is free and that makes it accessible to everyone.
There isn't much Brass Band on there yet, but I like to share my stuff and save it on line. I think I have the basic 18 part Brass Band score from the 2.6 on there if you want to clone it and write your own stuff. I think it was deleted from the 3.0 etc How did you get on playing it? Enjoy
 

Marilyn

Member
It's a good tool, I still use the 2.6 as its more band score friendly and I now have the Pro version, but the basic Musecore is free and that makes it accessible to everyone.
There isn't much Brass Band on there yet, but I like to share my stuff and save it on line. I think I have the basic 18 part Brass Band score from the 2.6 on there if you want to clone it and write your own stuff. I think it was deleted from the 3.0 etc How did you get on playing it? Enjoy
Just printed it off and no Bass trom.
 

James Yelland

Well-Known Member
Pennine Music have a different version in hard copy for about £20...
I looked for it on the Pennine website and couldn't find it. I think maybe you mean Larch Music?

I don't want to rain on your parade (literally or metaphorically) but is this arrangement licenced? According to the Musescore page it isn't. Copyright exists for 70 years after a composer's death and Mr Diamond is still very much alive! I'm not sure describing its provenance as 'English Football Traditional' will persuade m'learned friends!
 

Anglo Music Press

Well-Known Member
I looked for it on the Pennine website and couldn't find it. I think maybe you mean Larch Music?

I don't want to rain on your parade (literally or metaphorically) but is this arrangement licenced? According to the Musescore page it isn't. Copyright exists for 70 years after a composer's death and Mr Diamond is still very much alive! I'm not sure describing its provenance as 'English Football Traditional' will persuade m'learned friends!
James is correct. Lots of unlicensed stuff being posted on this site recently. Please stick to the rules. They may come back to bite you!
 

trumpetb

Member
Copyright is a thorny issue

Some years ago the rights to Oliver the stage play were purchased and the purchaser decided to go after any unlicensed performance.

A school had rehearsed the standard school play Oliver and were about to perform for their yearly play. The show was closed without any performance when threats of legal action were made.

I play versions of many standards from concert music to jazz to pop to nursery rhymes with little thought to licensing although I know legally I am bound to license or risk prosecution.

On the other hand copyright owners rarely chase itinerant musicians or Strolling Minstrels like myself for licensing fees so I am probably safe.

The fact that sweet caroline has been chosen as a jubilee song suggests to me that the copyright owner has been approached and has waived their rights to a license fee during the jubilee celebrations, or whoever chose the song would be acting illegally after or before the fact in encouraging the systematic evasion of a license fee by thousands of performers. Each business caught infringing copyright can be fined up to £50,000. 20 businesses on the day could collectively rake in 1 million pounds per collective offense.

Would Surfin USA or Sweet Little Sixteen be chosen as a jubilee song knowing that the chuck berry estate or the beach boys would chase every performer who performed those hits through the courts in a class action made up of up to 20 million uk respondents who decided to sing it in public.

The likelihood of grossing more than the hits themselves grossed in just one court action would be very tempting but the bad publicity this would generate for Mr Berrys estate or the Beach Boys, may be very unwelcome to them.

For this reason, Mr Diamond I think has no intention of going through litigation and probably will just allow the situation to pass without comment.

Of course the fact that there is no intention to profit from the performances would likely free the performers from any culpability or liability.

Warner/Chappel Music hold the copyright to Happy Birthday so none of you had better even think of playing that one. The bear in the Big Blue House had to sing a different happy birthday song to avoid losing his shirt over copyright litigation, come to think of it he didnt wear a shirt but that wouldnt have saved him, he would have probably lost his big blue house over it.

I personally would play sweet caroline without any hesitation even though I would profit from it, but on the other hand I dont like the song so I wouldnt be caught dead playing it, although I do like Neils other work Love on the Rocks and I am I said. Excellent.

And by the way none of you had better play any of my compositions or you will be hearing from my lawyer.
 

Anglo Music Press

Well-Known Member
Copyright is a thorny issue

Some years ago the rights to Oliver the stage play were purchased and the purchaser decided to go after any unlicensed performance.

A school had rehearsed the standard school play Oliver and were about to perform for their yearly play. The show was closed without any performance when threats of legal action were made.

I play versions of many standards from concert music to jazz to pop to nursery rhymes with little thought to licensing although I know legally I am bound to license or risk prosecution.

On the other hand copyright owners rarely chase itinerant musicians or Strolling Minstrels like myself for licensing fees so I am probably safe.

The fact that sweet caroline has been chosen as a jubilee song suggests to me that the copyright owner has been approached and has waived their rights to a license fee during the jubilee celebrations, or whoever chose the song would be acting illegally after or before the fact in encouraging the systematic evasion of a license fee by thousands of performers. Each business caught infringing copyright can be fined up to £50,000. 20 businesses on the day could collectively rake in 1 million pounds per collective offense.

Would Surfin USA or Sweet Little Sixteen be chosen as a jubilee song knowing that the chuck berry estate or the beach boys would chase every performer who performed those hits through the courts in a class action made up of up to 20 million uk respondents who decided to sing it in public.

The likelihood of grossing more than the hits themselves grossed in just one court action would be very tempting but the bad publicity this would generate for Mr Berrys estate or the Beach Boys, may be very unwelcome to them.

For this reason, Mr Diamond I think has no intention of going through litigation and probably will just allow the situation to pass without comment.

Of course the fact that there is no intention to profit from the performances would likely free the performers from any culpability or liability.

Warner/Chappel Music hold the copyright to Happy Birthday so none of you had better even think of playing that one. The bear in the Big Blue House had to sing a different happy birthday song to avoid losing his shirt over copyright litigation, come to think of it he didnt wear a shirt but that wouldnt have saved him, he would have probably lost his big blue house over it.

I personally would play sweet caroline without any hesitation even though I would profit from it, but on the other hand I dont like the song so I wouldnt be caught dead playing it, although I do like Neils other work Love on the Rocks and I am I said. Excellent.

And by the way none of you had better play any of my compositions or you will be hearing from my lawyer.
If I may make a couple of observations:-
1) you don’t need a licence to PLAY a copyright piece, although the venue might
2) chosing the song for the Jubilee does not imply the copyright holder has waived any fees. They are probably rubbing their hands with deep joy!
3) Happy Birthday became public domain in 2017
4) you DO need a licence to arrange a copyright work, whether it’s for profit or not. The right (as the name implies) covers COPYING the work (not performing it)

Not thorny at all! :)
 

2nd tenor

Well-Known Member
James is correct. Lots of unlicensed stuff being posted on this site recently. Please stick to the rules. They may come back to bite you!
I wonder if you would clarify that statement please. Very little of anything is posted on TMP.

As for music copyright rules they, in their current form, are a nonsense brought about by legal shenanigans. It is reasonable to respect the intellectual property of others but patents run out after about twenty years so to have copyrights of seventy years is relatively excessive.
 

Anglo Music Press

Well-Known Member
I wonder if you would clarify that statement please. Very little of anything is posted on TMP.

As for music copyright rules they, in their current form, are a nonsense brought about by legal shenanigans. It is reasonable to respect the intellectual property of others but patents run out after about twenty years so to have copyrights of seventy years is relatively excessive.
Perhaps ‘lots’ is an exaggeration! Without naming names, there have been some trumpet ensemble arrangements being offered, which appear to me to be unlicensed. But I would be happy to be proved wrong.
 

trumpetb

Member
Interesting

The authority who grant licences to perform copyrighted music, found on this link - "Playing music legally" say this

" Why do I need TheMusicLicence?
Under The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, permission is needed from the relevant copyright holders – those people who create music – in order to play or perform music in public.
TheMusicLicence gives you this permission, in relation to the vast majority of commercially available music. This ranges from grassroots and independent artists and composers through to the biggest names in the business."

This suggests to me that in order to play or perform music in public performers need a license from the copyright holder. If the performance is in a venue then I agree the venue needs a license rather than the performer however where a performance is in the open or not in any performance venue then it is my belief that under the provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, it is the responsibility of the performer to obtain or establish that a license has been purchased for the work being performed.

Am I wrong in this.
 

Anglo Music Press

Well-Known Member
Interesting

The authority who grant licences to perform copyrighted music, found on this link - "Playing music legally" say this

" Why do I need TheMusicLicence?
Under The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, permission is needed from the relevant copyright holders – those people who create music – in order to play or perform music in public.
TheMusicLicence gives you this permission, in relation to the vast majority of commercially available music. This ranges from grassroots and independent artists and composers through to the biggest names in the business."

This suggests to me that in order to play or perform music in public performers need a license from the copyright holder. If the performance is in a venue then I agree the venue needs a license rather than the performer however where a performance is in the open or not in any performance venue then it is my belief that under the provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, it is the responsibility of the performer to obtain or establish that a license has been purchased for the work being performed.

Am I wrong in this.
Yes, it’s not quite correct. It’s not necessary to get a performance licence for each individual piece. A PRS license (usually held by the venue) is all that’s needed and PRS will compensate each individual copyright holder.

When I conducted Hillingdon Band, we had to pay a small annual fee to PRS. This was to cover outdoor performances (or those in an unlicensed venue, for example, playing carols in or outside a supermarket etc)
 

James Yelland

Well-Known Member
The fact that sweet caroline has been chosen as a jubilee song suggests to me that the copyright owner has been approached...

Unfortunately for that supposition, the song has not been chosen as a 'jubilee song' (whatever that may be). It was merely suggested in a poll of Radio 2 listeners. As far as I can see, the suggestion has not been endorsed by anyone who matters.

Why Radio 2 listeners thought it would be an appropriate song for the jubilee, of course, is an entirely different matter.
 

James Yelland

Well-Known Member
...Mr Diamond I think has no intention of going through litigation and probably will just allow the situation to pass without comment.
Well, you might be right, although the fact that Mr Diamond will be giving a concert in Cheltenham, just a stone's throw away from the OP's bandroom in a couple of months, might cause a certain nervousness! In other circumstances, most bands would be delighted to welcome a global superstar into their bandroom!

It's also worth remembering that another publisher has prepared a brass band arrangement of the piece (see above). That publisher HAS licensed its arrangement, so one could understand his feelings, after having paid all the necessary costs involved in licensing, preparing and printing the work up front, he then finds that he is losing potential sales to someone giving away an unlicensed version for nothing.
 

Anglo Music Press

Well-Known Member
Well, you might be right, although the fact that Mr Diamond will be giving a concert in Cheltenham, just a stone's throw away from the OP's bandroom in a couple of months, might cause a certain nervousness! In other circumstances, most bands would be delighted to welcome a global superstar into their bandroom!

It's also worth remembering that another publisher has prepared a brass band arrangement of the piece (see above). That publisher HAS licensed its arrangement, so one could understand his feelings, after having paid all the necessary costs involved in licensing, preparing and printing the work up front, he then finds that he is losing potential sales to someone giving away an unlicensed version for nothing.
^ what he said
 

trumpetb

Member
Thanks for that James, that settles it Mr Diamond is clearly the victim of the publics admiration for his work, I assumed wrongly that it was indeed chosen as I am asked to play it a lot. The public do love that song so I am not surprised it is listeners choice. The great unwashed cannot be wrong of course and they show great taste, they do love the archers as well after all.
 

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