Sibelius First Question

Bbmad

Active Member
Other way --> I am -6 GMT, It is 5:15 PM here which should make it close to 11:15 PM in London. I will go to sleep at a normal time so I do not screw up my sleep schedule.

Thanks
Ah yes quite so, must be about tea time I do get mixed up with time zones plus its a full moon this evening, for some reason I never quite feel myself during this phase.
 
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DocFox

Well-Known Member
I bit the bullet and upgraded Sibelius. So far it works great. I found an upgrade discount coupon and spent $149. After having the Android and Apple apps programmed, my discretionary funds are very low. The radio station is really a habit. I lose a lot of money keeping it going, but I love it. It is not only a habit, but a hobby. Hence my reluctance at first to spend the money. But I did. It should solve the transposition problem (actually, it does) and my expensive sound sets I bought 10+ years ago were easily imported.

I would like to know from Finale users if it has a Brass Band template. My Finale is so down level it will not even come up on my Intel Mac. It was made to run on the really old Macs.
 

GJG

Well-Known Member
Contrary to what I said in an earlier post, I now find that Finale2014 does indeed have a brass band template. I have never used it, having always set up my own from scratch, so I can't say how useful it is.
 

DocFox

Well-Known Member
When I compare my "homemade" template to the one on Sibelius, Sibelius makes it REALLY easy. My template with creative workarounds worked, and did a decent job, but nothing like a "real" template. You ought to try it with a simple hymn on Finale -- maybe only do 8 bars or so and see what it does and how well it does it.

I bought Finale because at the time, it did MIDI input much better. Today, I think the two are close in functionality -- it is just a matter of which interface you like the best. They both give out test versions that last 30 days or so or have some other restriction (like prints with a watermark or will not save after 15 days, etc.).

Try them, see which one you like the best. I am upgrading, so I am not sure if this is still true, but at one time, they would sell you Sibelius at 1/2 price if your were an educator or worked for a non-profit (I directed the choir at my church). That made the initial cost reasonable. Not sure if they still do that or not.':confused:
 

GJG

Well-Known Member
I have been using Finale professionally for around twenty years now. Most people would consider me an "expert" user, although I will readily admit that there are areas of the programme where I have little experience. I know nothing about guitar tab, and I rarely use chord symbols; I have some experience of working with lyrics, although I don't write complex choral music. I also have little experience of what one might describe as "avant-garde" notation. I do however have a great deal of experience notating for orchestras, brass bands, concert bands, big bands, and sundry other ensembles.

I do know two things:

1) The brass band template that I have created and refined over twenty years regular use is infinitely superior to the one that Finale supplies; even at a cursory first glance, I can see a number of obvious things that I would have to modify in the "off-the-peg" version before it would be useable for me, including instrument sound definitions, percussion layouts, staff group allocations and so on. And that's before I start looking at the print layout parameters which are all set up and stored in my own template ...

2) The twenty years experience, study and knowledge (not to mention the money) that I have invested in Finale mean that it will never be an attractive proposition for me to learn a new user interface for a different notation software package. I'm not going to get into any discussion concerning relative merits of Sibelius v Finale, because I don't know enough about using Sibelius to be able to comment with any authority, but until somebody offers me a hefty fee for undertaking a notation project and stipulates that I must use Sibelius, I have no motivation to try it.

FWIW you can still get substantial discounts on Theological/Educational licences for Finale.
 

DocFox

Well-Known Member
20 years a is LOT to invest! No wonder your template works well. I have been playing with the Sibelius template and it works great. I am sure I will makes changes (especially to the sounds) but not 20 years worth.

Gareth, I am ashamed to say, I do not know the answer to this question. Have any of your arrangements/compositions been recorded? I sure would like to hear them if they have been. You would think with all the CDs I have I would have a copy of most things, but that is not true. I have one recording of "Star Trek" and at least 15 of Mr. Jums.

 

GJG

Well-Known Member
20 years a is LOT to invest! No wonder your template works well. I have been playing with the Sibelius template and it works great. I am sure I will makes changes (especially to the sounds) but not 20 years worth.

Gareth, I am ashamed to say, I do not know the answer to this question. Have any of your arrangements/compositions been recorded? I sure would like to hear them if they have been. You would think with all the CDs I have I would have a copy of most things, but that is not true. I have one recording of "Star Trek" and at least 15 of Mr. Jums.


I have a few recordings; probably not of interest to the wider forum membership, so I'll send you a PM with more details.
 

Slider1

Active Member
This was supposed to be a discussion about Sibelius. World Parts have Eb Sop, Bb Cornets, Bb Flugel, Eb Tenors, Bb Baritones (usually TC), Bb Euphs (BC), Bb Trombones (BC), Eb Tubas (BC) BBb Tubas (BC). Although the Euphs through Tubas are listed as Bb, they are really in concert pitch. Bb is used because open valves or 1st position plays Bb. Like you said, no one publishes parts, world or otherwise, in concert key for every instrument.

I just wanted Sibelius to play TC BBb Tuba down 2 or 3 octaves where it SOUNDS, not where it is written. Did that make any sense? The last piece I bought was "Those Daring Young Men and Their Flying Machines". It had both sets of parts.

In the US, many players cannot read TC parts for Euph through Tuba. In an orchestra, such parts are in bass clef. Often US bands the MD or someone with transposing talent (or good with Sibelius or Finale) will re-write the Euph down to Tuba parts into bass clef. It is illegal technically. So is photocopying music so it can be marked up, but most bands do it anyway.

How a piece is written and how it SOUNDS are two different things. I wanted Sibelius to "play" the score how it should sound, not necessarily how it is written.

If you use 8va/vb in the LINES box (Ctrl L) Sibelius will reproduce the notes thus selected up or down an Octave etc. which should help in playback, also by dropping the note an Octave and using the 8vb line gives you the 2 Octaves you require.
Hope this helps
 

mikelyons

Supporting Member
Who wants the last word? All this talk about transposition was about composition and the sounds produced by music software. Euphonium, in TC when playing a tuning "Bb" playes "open". But it sounds a 9th lower.

This becomes a problem because I am cheap. The latest Sibelius (and probably Finale) has a templete that does the PLAYBACK transposing.

Without that, I have to try to trick Sibelius into playing Euph in TC down a 9th. Hence the beginning of this thread.

A full Sibelius 7.5 package is $795 US. An upgrade is $195/year every year. I have version 5 which does not work well with my computer.

So transposing and tricking to make my own template is my only choice. I bought Sibelius First (again being cheap) but it does not have a brass band template. So I can write anything but brass band arrangements.
Sorry to chip in so late, but doesn't the Euphonium instrument in Sibelius do this automagically? I have never known it to play at the wrong pitch. are you creating your instruments using the Unnamed Treble staff and then renaming it? If you are on Sib 7 upwards, goto Home->Change and insert an instrument change to Euphonium [Treble clef] at the very beginning of the staff in the score.. Or have I misunderstood the question?

Sibelius First is a complete waste of money. Did you miss the chance to upgrade for $89? If you are an educator, you can get the Academic discount.
 

DocFox

Well-Known Member
I use Sibelius. I have never had a playback problem. Just as MikeLyons said, make the instrument Baritone T.C. and it can be written in treble clef and will sound a 9th lower. You can use a non-transposing score and write/arrange in concert pitch and then back to transposing to publish. You will have a bit of cleaning up to do, but in Sibelius, they even have a Brass Band worksheet that lists all the instruments in treble clef (except bass bone and tuned percussion) and playback in the right octave - even Eb and BBb bass. I have a copy of Sibelius First collecting dust. I use Sib 7.5.
 

DocFox

Well-Known Member
My latest Sibelius project for Brass Band is FREE and has an Open Cultural license. That license says you can download it, print for free, give away, and make your own arrangement from mine. I used the brass band template. It is Bacchanale March from Saint-Saëns' opera Samson et Delilah without the oboe introduction. It is rather difficult. I spent years on it and it probably still has errata.

Oh and I do ask if anyone records it officially or unofficially, that they send me a copy of the recording. It is free to hear the Sibelius made mp3 and download at ScoreExchange.
 
The scoring of all the instrumental parts in a British brass band or in a Salvation Army band (except for the bass trombone) in a false treble clef notation to suit Bb instruments and Eb instruments means that a musician need only learn one set of fingerings and one clef. Even the tubas are scored at a false pitch using treble clef. This enables musicians to migrate from one instrument to another. Clarinets and saxophones are all scored at a false pitch in treble clef for the same reasons. Outside of British brass bands and Salvation Army bands, the tenor trombone parts are scored in bass clef but this obliges the first trombone player to read notes three and four leger lines above the bass clef.

The use of false notation may displease composers, arrangers and conductors but it is a boon to the musicians in the front line of the battle.
 
I own Sibelius, and Finale. But I use Sibelius First most of the time. I have a question (I hope this is the right place to post such a question). How do you get a score to play in concert pitch? If you just put in instruments, like tenor horn, it automatically makes it in Eb. That is great if writing world parts or for a concert band. But for brass bands, you want everything in concert pitch.

Anybody have any idea how to get Sibelius to make all the staves in concert pitch?

Thanks,

Jim
Here is a concise answer to the original question.
In Sibelius 7 you will find the "Transposing score" toggle under "Home". In earlier versions menus provided this facility.
You can ask for Sibelius help from your browner - e.g. Google Chrome. Searching for "Sibelius transposing" might have found your answer.
 

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