Scottish Area - 1st section

JTKBrass

Member
Moira, get an appeal in. Band was 4th last year, had a good result at Whitburn, wasn't in the last two at the weekend and is definitely a band of at least first section standard. Not sure how the new process works but it's there for a reason ! English bands have had the power to do this for years, no reason it shouldn't start up here now they've added this rule in.
 
JTKBrass said:
Moira, get an appeal in. Band was 4th last year, had a good result at Whitburn, wasn't in the last two at the weekend and is definitely a band of at least first section standard. Not sure how the new process works but it's there for a reason ! English bands have had the power to do this for years, no reason it shouldn't start up here now they've added this rule in.
Mind you John, they'll need to have a damn fine case as was proved last year.
 

JK57

New Member
I think it's really unfair that a Band who came 7th goes down and yet a Band who didn't compete stay's up. Surely there should be rule going forward that any Band that does not compete is automatically relegated.

JK57
 

JTKBrass

Member
Steve Nicoll said:
JTKBrass said:
Moira, get an appeal in. Band was 4th last year, had a good result at Whitburn, wasn't in the last two at the weekend and is definitely a band of at least first section standard. Not sure how the new process works but it's there for a reason ! English bands have had the power to do this for years, no reason it shouldn't start up here now they've added this rule in.
Mind you John, they'll need to have a damn fine case as was proved last year.
Steve, last year there was no official appeals process in Scotland, the rules on relegation were final. Several bands had requested an appeal to be heard in previous years, but none of those were heard. Nitten were just the latest in a succession of good bands which were relegated who knew they were good enough to still compete in the top section.

Now there are official rules for an appeals process. Whether those came about due to the new regime, or because your case was strong last year, is neither here nor there. I do think Granite City are a good first section band, and should stay up, and also think Dalmellington are a good championship section band, and should stay up also.
 
I still think relegation was the best thing that happened to us. Yes it was an exceptionally bitter pill to swollow at the time but we came back much stronger and more focused.

Also means that as far as 2005 is concerned, Prague never happened.

Shame :wink:
 

JK57

New Member
I agree with Alistair, relegation has worked for Newtongrange as there has been a few personnel changes which have benefited the band and the band is a lot more focussed.

Personally I think the appeals process should be used in exceptional circumstances and I believe Granite City have good grounds to appeal based on the fact that Livingston stay up and yet did not compete. Dalmellington on the other hand I don't think should be allowed to appeal as the rules are the rules no matter how bad the may be, what needs to be changed is the system. I feel a bit uneasy about the appeals process as it looks like every band who get's relegated will appeal just for the hell of it, and before anyone mentions it I personally didn't think Newtongrange should have appealed last year either.

Jk57
Newtongrange
 

flugelgal

Active Member
Well if we get to stay up that would be great, but if not, then we shall just have to do well next year...

:D
 
JTKBrass said:
Steve, last year there was no official appeals process in Scotland, the rules on relegation were final. Several bands had requested an appeal to be heard in previous years, but none of those were heard. Nitten were just the latest in a succession of good bands which were relegated who knew they were good enough to still compete in the top section.

Now there are official rules for an appeals process. Whether those came about due to the new regime, or because your case was strong last year, is neither here nor there. I do think Granite City are a good first section band, and should stay up, and also think Dalmellington are a good championship section band, and should stay up also.
John, you have a point regarding Granite City, however I think you are a little wide of the mark with Dalmelllington. Had our position been swapped with Dalmellington last year I would have supported any appeal the may have made on the basis of it being a one-off result. But in my opinion a run of 6th, 8th, 7th does not represent a strong case for an appeal.

Just my opinion mind, and I personally feel that we have the wrong promotion and relegation rules for sections that are so small. Back when I started playing the rules were a lot fairer due to the larger sections and made it a lot harder for a good band to get relegated. One day someone will come up with a fairer system - but until then I'm actually glad I got the opportunity to finally win a medal on Sunday :D
 

legendary_27

New Member
As a member of Livingston band, I feel that I should add my tuppence worth (incidentally, these are my views and not necessarily the views of the band !)

We did not make the contest due to lack of players - plain and simple. I can entirely understand the train of thought that it is unfair for any band to be relegated when another band in their section fails to compete. Indeed, I tend to think that if a band fails to compete at the Scottish Championships then they should be relegated (hence my disclaimer above !) It should be noted though, that with the results turning out the way they did, we could have turned up with the two thirds of a band we currently have, came last, and we still would not have been relegated, due to our record over previous years. I do not think that this would have added anything to the quality of the contest, and the result would still have been the same.

I suspect that this is a topic we could debate ad infinitum and still not agree upon, but my sympathies most certainly lie with Granite City.

Regards,
Gordon
 

one_careful_owner

New Member
Forgive my ignorance, but how exactly would the appeal work?

I'm curious as to how they would alter the adjudicator's descision in the event of a successful appeal.

Would it add points to the bands score to get them out of the relegation zone or would it basically ignore them and act as if they didn't exist for the purposes of promotion/relegation spots?
 

JTKBrass

Member
I don't think anyone's sure of the exact appeals process .. it's a brand new rule up here. I think it involves having an independant person listen to the band at a contest sometime in the remainder of the banding year, then decided what section their standard is relevant to. The whole process is to ensure bands compete in the correct section the following year, which in my opinion is section one for Granite City and championship section for Dalmellington.

If a band has a successful appeal, they will not be relegated. This doesn't affect any other bands, it simply means the section would have an extra band the following year (ie. two come up but only one goes down). Their placing is still used in the grading table for the following year. Band's aren't allowed to appeal two years in a row.

It isn't an ideal system, but then I don't think we'll every have an ideal system for grading. As Steve said the system is basically the same as when we had 15 bands per section, and is in need of an overhaul. This appeals process is useful but I think it's the overall grading system that's at fault.
 

weemarky

Member
granite city - definitely appeal. never came in bottom two and have a very strong band.

im not sure on the other hand if nitten did appeal last year whether it would have been successful. although i am not demeaning the quality in the band which was proven at the scottish, they did come in the bottom two in the year of the plague (prague).

i think an appeal from any band should only be realistically be given a chance if the band in question have not come in the bottom two at the regionals in the last 2-3 yrs.
 

eckyboy

Member
I personally think it's a farce that the bands coming up get points that would place them 5th,making it a lot easier to stay up the following years.This is what happenned to Newtongrange resulting in them going down last year with in my opinion lesser bands staying up.Dalmellington are another example this year.It's time for the commitee to sit down and work another format out.
 

HBB

Active Member
4BarsRest said:
It wasn’t to be for Granite City though. One of our pre-contest tips under the guidance of David James didn’t make the best of starts, with intonation causing them real problems from the opening. The full band sound was pretty healthy though and we heard some neat ensemble playing. The slow section was pretty safe from the soloists but the accompaniments were on the muddy side. The solo horn had a good day and was the star player for us. The music needed to flow a bit more though and much of the detail was lost towards the end as the ensemble got a bit messy again. Not a great showing from a band that is capable of much better. 7th place from the real judges and we weren’t arguing.

Well done Moira!!



Edit: If in future you spot an interesting news item or comment on 4BarsRest (or any other website) could I please request that you provide a link to the article in question as opposed to copying and pasting the text. These web pages are subject to copyright regulations.
Cheers, Roger
 

Lauradoll

Active Member
eckyboy said:
I personally think it's a farce that the bands coming up get points that would place them 5th,making it a lot easier to stay up the following years.This is what happenned to Newtongrange resulting in them going down last year with in my opinion lesser bands staying up.Dalmellington are another example this year.It's time for the commitee to sit down and work another format out.
How many points should promoted bands get then? They were 1st or 2nd in the section below so should they come up with that score? That would make it even more difficult. An average appears to work at the moment and I can't see how you gcould give them a "fair" points score when they've been promoted.

Should we be fair to the promoted band or fair to the other bands in the section???
 

johnmartin

Active Member
I think promoted bands should be given a points score which is the average of the last x bands in the section, where x is dependent upon section size. This way the bands that make up the middle order will not be continually looking over their shoulders and the bands that are promoted will have a fair chance to stay in the section the following year.
 

JTKBrass

Member
johnmartin said:
I think promoted bands should be given a points score which is the average of the last x bands in the section, where x is dependent upon section size. This way the bands that make up the middle order will not be continually looking over their shoulders and the bands that are promoted will have a fair chance to stay in the section the following year.
That's a good idea John. Having read all the post on here there's three conclusion -

First is the system is flawed and needs changed. It was set up for sections of 15 bands, and now sections are more or less 10 (in Scotland anyway) a change is needed.

Second is the question of how long to compare results over. Three years results are too much as bands can change personnel (and standard) so quickly. Taking results over various contests in a year is not workable, so ideal would be taking two regional results, this years and lasts.

Thirdly promoted bands are placed way too high in the grading table with an average score. The score should place those bands above the bottom two but not in the middle. If a band is good enough it'll work its way up the rankings. If it's not good enough it shouldn't have the cushion of a head start to stay up.

I think the two newly promoted bands should be given equal points to the second bottom band in the grading table. That way they know if they beat the two bands bottom of the table they stay up. If they can't beat those bands then they shouldn't be in that section.

Example for the Scottish top section would see Newtongrange and Newmilns come in with 8 points, same points as Bo'ness, and with Bathgate on 9. Next years regionals would see those four bands fight it out to see who stays up and who goes down. Very simple, rewards newly promoted bands who are of a high enough standard to stay in the section and takes current form more into account .. as opposed to the current system which is more complicated, gives newly promoted bands a false advantage, and uses results over too long a time period.
 
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