SA Horn Players

[Razor]

The recent posts regards select/national/fantasy bands got me, as a former SA player, thinking about a select band comprising present/former SA players who have made their mark within the SA or the wider world of brass playing.

This proved to be an interesting exercise but one area posed some difficulty - tenor horn players matching the calibre of the rest of the sections. My choice of players spanned the last 30 years or so but I could only come up with a handful of horn players to choose from. Cornets, troms, euphs and basses no probs but horn players seem to be a different story.

This could be due to
a) my ignorance of SA horn players present or past
b) the attitude within SA banding to playing the horn

In my opinion one major difference in the sound produced by the best SA bands and their counterparts in the contesting world is the middle i.e. horns and baris, SA bands tending to be fairly thin.

Anybody with any thoughts on this subject?

Ray Collins

 

[carlwoodman]

In my opinion one major difference in the sound produced by the best SA bands and their counterparts in the contesting world is the middle i.e. horns and baris, SA bands tending to be fairly thin.

Anybody with any thoughts on this subject?

Ray Collins

Could be that SA horn & baritone players might be more sparing with their use of vibrato compared to their contesting counterparts.

 

[Razor]

Could be that SA horn & baritone players might be more sparing with their use of vibrato compared to their contesting counterparts.

Perhaps so Carl. Incidently I had you in my band, not on Eb but Bb which I know you to play equally well. My band was as follows-

(Sections not really in any particular order other than David Daws as principal cornet and Steven Mead as principal euphonium)

Eb Soprano
Philip Smith
Principal Cornet
David Daws
Bb Cornets
Roland Cobb
Keith Hutchison
James Williams
Deryck Diffey
Terry Camsey
Richard Martin
Matt Baker
Tommy Wilson
Flugel
Bob Foster
Horn
Ian Watkinson
Phil Randell
Jonathan Miller
Tim Parker
Euph/Bari
Steven Mead
Trevor Groom
Curtis Metcalf
Peter Wise
Trombone
Nick Hudson
Dudley Bright
Ron Prussing
Bass Trombone
Stuart Horton
Eb Bass
Patrick Harrild
Tony Swainson
Bb Bass
Martin Tiplady
Carl Woodman
Percussion
Steve Yalden
Jonathan Whitmore

Could chop and change some sections a fair bit especially looking further back than 30 or so years that I have. Harry Dilley, Phil Catilinet, Bill Overton, Maisie Wiggins etc......

Ray Collins

 

[Okiedokie of Oz]

Call me stupid, but what is a SA player?

 

[Okiedokie of Oz]

duh@me...Salvation army!!!

Did anyone consider Barrie Gott? Conducted Brisbane XLCR before Howard Taylor, composer, arranger and Salvo. Helped Bruce PEarson with the First Performance Band Method.

 

[carlwoodman]

Perhaps so Carl. Incidently I had you in my band, not on Eb but Bb which I know you to play equally well.

That's very kind of you, I'm flattered to be considered in that sort of company!
However, there are a number of other tuba players that I could suggest;
Philip Catelinet, Paul Smith, Les Condon, Philip Condon, Paul Drury and John Evans.
Also my colleague in the ISB, Mike Calland is one of the most consistent players I've ever had the priviledge of sitting next to.
Sadly, the first three are no longer with us but I am sure will have formed a formidable section in Heaven!

 

[Okiedokie of Oz]

...but I am sure will have formed a formidable section in Heaven!

Well, with that attitude, you have to realise that God has the best band ever!! He steals all the good ones with promises of eternal and blissful life on cloud # 9..... So that formidable bass section will be accompanied by many other greats......Makes you wonder.....what would that band sound like??? Does Gabriel play cornet as well as trumpet??

 

[Keppler]

Does Gabriel play cornet as well as trumpet??

I think he plays Oboe myself..

 

[Razor]

However, there are a number of other tuba players that I could suggest;
Philip Catelinet, Paul Smith, Les Condon, Philip Condon, Paul Drury and John Evans

Both Paul Smith and Les Condon initially came to mind for the tuba section but when it came to jotting all the names down later that night my mind had been doing overtime - especially regards the horn section and I inadvertently forgot to include them! You are right though, they should have been included in that quite formidable group of players.

Messrs Tiplady and Woodman are now 1st reserves!!

I must admit I did forget about John Evans(Former ISB, Enfield). Shame on me but it was late at night! Thanks for reminding me.

Paul D will be honoured that he has been included in your selection of excellent bass players!!

Ray Collins

 

[BobRalston]

Call me stupid, but what is a SA player?

If you insist 'STUPID'.

 

[Cantonian]

I thought the thread was SA horn players not tuba players.

Tim Parker, Jon Millar to name two.

There are (and have been) a number of very good SA solo horn players but as ststed earlier in the thread the attitude to horns in the SA is not great.

Even in bands outside the Army it is only fairly recently that the horn soloists have been recognised so perhaps we have a bit of catching up to do.

Any horn section that I have participated in, I have encouraged to blow to get a good middle to the band. We at Canton have a very able horn section who are not afraid to fill the instruments.

 

[Waterboy]

re: here are some more names

There are many more excellent ex army players about with top class bands.

Jeremy Belton Solo Baritone at Yorkshire Imps previous Fodens
Lee Skipsey Percussionist at Dyke ex Leeds West Hunslet
Rob Gill Ex Principal of ISB and Bumper up at YBS
Paul Woodward now at Dyke
Neil Samual ex Leyland solo trom


and many more


Matt Fearn
Yorkshire Imps DUT
Bolton SA

 

[Jonathan W. Corry]

SA horns

Raymond, I would have to agree with your comment about SA horn players (in general). I think a lot of SA music in the past was geared specifically to cornets and trombones, and believe that this has caused the middle of the band to possibly feel there not good enough and not being "used" like the cornets and troms. Its almost like a failed cornet player would get moved onto horn. It could well be that some SA bands aren't as well balanced as contest bands. A very famous (and probably the most successful) brass band conductor once said, "the sound of the band should be built like a triangle" (ie:- basses big, middle big and upper end just floating on top!!)
This was the secret (coupled with a superb interpretation) as to why he had so many wins in the late 70's and 80's.

Like many things in life, it's all a balancing act!!!!

 

[Razor]

I thought the thread was SA horn players not tuba players.

Tim Parker, Jon Millar to name two.

Both Tim and Jon were included in my selection. Had the experience of playing in the SA's Territorial School of Music A Band with Jon a number of years back.

Another current SA horn player I rate is David Winch from Norwich(current 1st horn in ISB). A player with a big, rich and full sound. Glad to see him using his talents in the ISB.

Ray Collins

 

[Jonathan W. Corry]

I have to agree with you there Raymond on Mr Winch, I too have a lot of time for his fat noise. Its very nice!
When are you going to get yourself back in the band?

 

[PeterBale]

I wonder whether another factor regarding the lack of prominent horn players in the SA stems from the size of the bands. In a contesting band, with one player on each part by and large, the horn section has to be strong in order to be heard. With SA bands, and particularly with some of the larger combinations of the past, it was not unusual to have two or even three on each part, which would sometimes contribute to the warmth of the sound, but does not necessarily encourage the development of future soloists.

The larger section can also lead to imbalance, as the stronger players tend to be on the top parts, leaving the weakest players struggling to bring out the second part in comparison. This can be even worse when playing arrangements where there are only 1st and 2nd, with no Solo Horn part, where far too often all the Solo and 1st players are given the top part, instead of sharing them out more evenly.

 

[Cantonian]

I wonder whether another factor regarding the lack of prominent horn players in the SA stems from the size of the bands. In a contesting band, with one player on each part by and large, the horn section has to be strong in order to be heard. With SA bands, and particularly with some of the larger combinations of the past, it was not unusual to have two or even three on each part, which would sometimes contribute to the warmth of the sound, but does not necessarily encourage the development of future soloists.

The larger section can also lead to imbalance, as the stronger players tend to be on the top parts, leaving the weakest players struggling to bring out the second part in comparison. This can be even worse when playing arrangements where there are only 1st and 2nd, with no Solo Horn part, where far too often all the Solo and 1st players are given the top part, instead of sharing them out more evenly.

This is not just resticted to the horn section though Peter. In just about every Army cornet section the strongest players are the front row with the next best on 1st cornet and so on through the band in all sections.

The Salvationist composers of the past wrote to this formula but nowadays there are some very good and difficult second parts. There are some very good horn players in Army bands who if they chose to play in 'other' bands instead (rather than splitting their commitment) could be mentioned in the same league as for example Dai Cornelius.

Again there are some very good players in the Army on other instruments to whom this argument would also apply.

 

[Razor]

When are you going to get yourself back in the band?

Just recently started blowing again after a few years away from it and really enjoying it. At present I'm playing in same band as BreadofHeaven, along with a big band. Hard slog at first but beginning to get somewhere with the sound now. Can't say where I'll be band wise in the future but who knows!

Looking forward to hearing your Fuoco Brass CD, in particular Golden Slippers!! Will it be available from World of Brass?

Ray Collins

 

[Jonathan W. Corry]

Yes it will hopefully be available from world of brass, it depends on whether or not they think its good to buy. Alternatively it could be purchased online when its released through a secure paypal service that is being set up on www.fuocobrass.com
Hope to see you back in Govan cit soon.
Regards

 

[Coley]

I do believe that not that many names have been put forward for SA Horn players of fine stature!

I would suggest Colin Bryant (ex-Principal Horn Bristol Easton), very fine player and one that had a big fat sound. Do listen to his recording of 'When He Cometh' on Easton's 'Music Makers' CD. Nathan Cole