Petition re. Bands and Child Performance Licences

[Jack E]

Mods - if you think this is in the wrong section, please feel free to move it to a more appropriate one.
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There is currently a petition gathering signatures to request that the government exempt amateur brass bands from needing a Child Performance Licence, and I ask you to read and carefully consider the following explanation written elsewhere on the 'net by my MD:

"To avoid a confusion that seems to have crept in, this ISN’T anything to do with Safeguarding in the band environment OR making sure responsible adults are properly vetted and held accountable. Most people on their right mind support legislation and regulation that are there for these purposes.

This IS to do with laws and regulations that are intended to prevent professional theatre companies, TV production companies, record labels, etc, from exploiting children for profits from performances. Unfortunately, these well intended regulations have inadvertently snared amateur (not for profit) music organisations like brass bands and it has threatened to cause chaos for individuals, bands, contest organisers, concert (and other event) organisers. The list goes on.

Please sign and share, as 100,000 signatures are needed for this to be considered for a debate in parliament. Currently there are only 2,289 - not nearly enough!

Thank you."
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This is the link to the petition website:

Petition: Make an exception for brass bands to not require a Child Performance Licence

Jack E

 

[Tom-King]

Already signed it

 

[Jack E]

I don't know how many brass players there are in Britain, but considering this petition has been posted about on 4BarsRest, here, and on Facebook, I think 2,622 signatures so far is pretty damn pathetic.

 

[Slider1]

I don't know how many brass players there are in Britain, but considering this petition has been posted about on 4BarsRest, here, and on Facebook, I think 2,622 signatures so far is pretty damn pathetic.

Going by the problems bands have getting players about 2,625 would be about right

 

[Jack E]

According to one published research paper (link below), in 2018 there were over 1200 bands in the United Kingdom; if the numbers of brass players are as low as you suggest, that would mean that each band, on average, only has two players. I find that impossible to believe. And, in any case, this law also affects players in school and amateur orchestras, who number vastly more than brass players.

http://www.ibew.org.uk/How Many Brass Bands.pdf

 

[Queeg2000]

I think the problem may be there are multiple similar partitions about. People are all signing different ones.

 

[Jack E]

I've only seen the one, Queeg2000.

 

[Adam 2049]

I don't understand why Brass bands think they can be an exception to the rule.
Yes I agree the rule is over the top for amateur organisations and that the legislation should make a distinction between Am and pro.

However, I play for local am dram groups and a semi-professional youth theatre group and they handle this legislation very well and have been for a number of years now.

 

[4th Cornet]

It would be useful if the petition outlined the supposed barriers or issues this creates.

Briefly looking at the other thread on the subject on here, it seems that regional associations are getting licences to cover bands and that it isn't a big deal. I think the government has got more important things to focus their efforts on.

 

[Jack E]

@Adam 2049: In that case, I strongly suspect that your groups "handle the legislation very well" simply because it has never been enforced on your groups. If it is, then your opinion may change radically.

If you agree that the legislation is "over the top for amateur organisations and that it should make a distinction between amateur and professional organisations", then why do you refuse to accept that the legislation needs to be changed?

 

[2nd tenor]

I don't understand why Brass bands think they can be an exception to the rule.

Yes I agree the rule is over the top for amateur organisations and that the legislation should make a distinction between Am and pro.

However, I play for local am dram groups and a semi-professional youth theatre group and they handle this legislation very well and have been for a number of years now.

To my mind the rule was never intended to cover Brass Band activities and therefore it’s not unreasonable for them to want to be exempt from it.

We are in agreement that the rule is over the top and that distinction should be made between Am and Pro though I do think that the Am time commitment on young people would need to be set at some reasoned level.

It’s good that Am Dram groups and semi-professional youth theatre groups handle the legislation well, however I would suggest that their performances are longer and more complex events, typically running over several performances, than a Brass Band performance. It’s all a matter of degree and balance.

Personally I believe that when it comes to young people doing anything that could be described as (outside of school) work we err too far on the side of caution and in doing so deprive young people of the many good things they could get out of (proper) work and (real world) work experience. The best thing I ever did was to leave school and amongst the most useful education my children ever got was that found in their paper rounds / Saturday jobs. I do wonder about our Politicians and Educationalists, sometimes they are so very far away from the real world.

 

[Jack E]

It would be useful if the petition outlined the supposed barriers or issues this creates. I might sign it if I understood more.

The explanatory note on the petition page reads as follows:
"Organisers of events are being put under extreme pressure to obtain specific licences from multiple LAs with differing forms for events when school aged children take part. Brass bands have formed the basis of social music making for over 100 years and continue to support the education and nurturing of young people through a network of volunteers and amateur musicians. This bureaucracy is causing a barrier to these performances when other similar activities such as sports have an exemption."

In other words, if that legislation is enforced, it means that my friend's 10 year old son can play in an under 11s football team without his club needing to pay for and obtain a Child Performance Licence for him; but if, in contrast, he plays with our Junior band in public, then the band have to obtain, and pay for, a CPL for him - and for every other school age member of the Juniors.

Further, because our band's policies over the years have been so successful at encouraging youngsters to get into banding, ten members of our (1st section) main band are also in full-time education - the law as it stands would require a CPL for each one of them, for every performance, and arranged with various different local authorities, depending on where the band is playing.

Faced with that prospect, how long do you think it will be before bands which currently do have Junior sections either bring in a rule that their Juniors cannot play in public, or just close them down altogether?

 

[4th Cornet]

The explanatory note on the petition page reads as follows:
"Organisers of events are being put under extreme pressure to obtain specific licences from multiple LAs with differing forms for events when school aged children take part. Brass bands have formed the basis of social music making for over 100 years and continue to support the education and nurturing of young people through a network of volunteers and amateur musicians. This bureaucracy is causing a barrier to these performances when other similar activities such as sports have an exemption."

In other words, if that legislation is enforced, it means that my friend's 10 year old son can play in an under 11s football team without his club needing to pay for and obtain a Child Performance Licence for him; but if, in contrast, he plays with our Junior band in public, then the band have to obtain, and pay for, a CPL for him - and for every other school age member of the Juniors.

Further, because our band's policies over the years have been so successful at encouraging youngsters to get into banding, ten members of our (1st section) main band are also in full-time education - the law as it stands would require a CPL for each one of them, for every performance, and arranged with various different local authorities, depending on where the band is playing.

Faced with that prospect, how long do you think it will be before bands which currently do have Junior sections either bring in a rule that their Juniors cannot play in public, or just close them down altogether?

Get a licence then. Doesn't sound difficult, certainly much easier than getting the legislation changed.
It sounds like other organisations 'unfairly' caught by the rule are just getting on with it and focusing their efforts on their hobby. That's where my vote goes. If that makes be 'pathetic' as per your earlier post, so be it.

 

[GJG]

The cynic in me suspects that somewhere down the line, some agency or other is making money from these licences, and, if so no amount of petitioning is going to result in any change ...

 

[Jack E]

Get a licence then. Doesn't sound difficult, certainly much easier than getting the legislation changed. It sounds like other organisations 'unfairly' caught by the rule are just getting on with it and focusing their efforts on their hobby. That's where my vote goes. If that makes be 'pathetic' as per your earlier post, so be it.

I don't know how much it costs to get a licence, nor how much extra paper work it would mean for bands' committees - which already have a fair amount on their plates; do you? If other processes in bureaucracy are anything to go by, I rather doubt it will be either cheap or easy. And, as a I pointed out, above, it's not a question of getting 'a' licence - but individual licences, for all players still in full-time education, and for every public performance.

I've said my piece; what others choose to do about it is entirely their own affair.

 

[4th Cornet]

I don't know how much it costs to get a licence, nor how much extra paper work it would mean for bands' committees - which already have a fair amount on their plates; do you? If other processes in bureaucracy are anything to go by, I rather doubt it will be either cheap or easy. And, as a I pointed out, above, it's not a question of getting 'a' licence - but individual licences, for all players still in full-time education, and for every public performance.

I've said my piece; what others choose to do about it is entirely their own affair.

Fair enough. If I were promoting colleagues to sign a petition I'd want to be able to share the practical implications. I wonder how many people have signed it without understanding or deciding for themselves whether or not it is really needed.

 

[GER]

I think one of the problems is that brass bands, am dram co's orchestras etc would all qualify for body of person's approval, which would negate the necessity of a a CPL, however this is managed by local authorities and the 'rules' for approval of these changes from council to council, for example some councils have a criteria of only granting for performances in their area. Obviously this then creates problems, Butlins, area and national finals spring to mind. Perhaps an approach from our area representatives to government would be a more productive way forward.

 

[Robert Newell]

This is an important petition. One member notes there are similar petitions about. That is OK, if they are deemed to overlap, that is taken into account. Another member queries why Brass Bands should be exceptions. This is quite correct, they shouldn't; all amateur music should be, in the same way amateur sports are. However, here is a petition we can sign. The problem is that the numbers required for even a response from Government are large. Accordingly, it is important to enlist as many friends. family members as possible, including via social media. Cheers

 

[rootertooter]

I don't know how much it costs to get a licence, nor how much extra paper work it would mean for bands' committees - which already have a fair amount on their plates; do you? If other processes in bureaucracy are anything to go by, I rather doubt it will be either cheap or easy. And, as a I pointed out, above, it's not a question of getting 'a' licence - but individual licences, for all players still in full-time education, and for every public performance.

I've said my piece; what others choose to do about it is entirely their own affair.

Considering you admit to not fully understanding you are putting an awful lot of effort into trying to get others to sign ! I'm sure most experienced band secs will overcome any problems and sort the relevant paperwork quickly and efficiently.

 

[4th Cornet]

This is an important petition. One member notes there are similar petitions about. That is OK, if they are deemed to overlap, that is taken into account. Another member queries why Brass Bands should be exceptions. This is quite correct, they shouldn't; all amateur music should be, in the same way amateur sports are. However, here is a petition we can sign. The problem is that the numbers required for even a response from Government are large. Accordingly, it is important to enlist as many friends. family members as possible, including via social media. Cheers

Why is it important? Your post seems to support the licencing requirement, but you suggest we sign the petition to stop it. Have I missed something?