Paddy's Welsh Area - 2011

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boourns

Member
None of that answers the question.
A couple of other questions as yet unanswered...

Did CBB have any kind of relationship with the winning band in the run up to the competition?
Why have Wrexham not yet been given any reason for their appeal being dismissed?
 

Andy_Euph

Active Member
Did CBB have any kind of relationship with the winning band in the run up to the competition?
I thought this had been categorically denied by a member of the winning band many many pages ago, so seems pretty clear the answer is no.
 

boourns

Member
I thought this had been categorically denied by a member of the winning band many many pages ago, so seems pretty clear the answer is no.
You're right, it was, and on the other side of the coin we have the following from Mr Ruston's earlier 'evidence'...

I made my way home but some Wrexham members stayed and ended up in an restaurant with the winning band. I believe that a question was asked to one of their band officials in front of 11 witnesses “so how many times did Mr Buckley take the band before the contest”? It is alleged that the answer was “only twice”
I'm really not trying to allege any impropriety on the part of CBB, but if the above is true, coupled with the existing and acknowledged 'bad blood' with Wrexham, you have to question the wisdom of asking him to adjudicate that particular contest. Given this, however ill advised they may have been, it seems unfair to dismiss subsequent events as being solely down to "sour grapes".
 

BurgerBoy

Member
You're right, it was, and on the other side of the coin we have the following from Mr Ruston's earlier 'evidence'...



I'm really not trying to allege any impropriety on the part of CBB, but if the above is true, coupled with the existing and acknowledged 'bad blood' with Wrexham, you have to question the wisdom of asking him to adjudicate that particular contest. Given this, however ill advised they may have been, it seems unfair to dismiss subsequent events as being solely down to "sour grapes".
I spoke to a mate of mine who plays with another band in South Wales. Apparently CBB taking rehearsals for the winning band before the contest was common knowledge. I just don't know who to believe any more.......
 
In that case there is certainly not enough evidence to cast any doubt on the integrity of Mr Buckley. It would "would pose no difficulty at all" for an adjudicator to steal a newspaper & some sweets from a shop on the way to the contest, but there is no evidence to suggest Mr Buckley shoplifts, so it must be assumed he doesn't. These nasty insinuations are nothing new. Indeed, after the 1981 British open many people explained the "dodgy" result was due to an adjudicator believing the winning bands principle cornet was Philip McCann having a bad day, and putting what they thought was Black Dyke first! Crazy - but some folk actually believe this sort of stuff, and similarly this thread has tried to create some conspiracy theory about the Welsh area contest. It's all a bit bonkers.
I don't recall Philip McCann having a bad day, but I do recall quite a few other members of Dyke and a lot of the other so called 'top' bands not having very good days! In fact the Principal Cornet of City of Coventry, Terry Giblin, was superb!

It certainly was not a 'dodgy' result!

Biggest shame of the day was the obnoxious supporters and members of other bands, booing the results.
 

Frontman

Member
i personally feel sorry for Wrexham Brass who seem to be the main losers in what appears to be an ongoing personality clash between Mr Rushton and Mr Buckley.

One must always remember that with the exception of the Elite Bands, this is a hobby.

As an adjudicator myself I know that some people always disagree with whatever the result is. But there are correct ways to at least air your view without aggression.

Following any contest I have adjudicated at I have always made myself available to discuss whatever the result with anyone interested in asking my opinions.

This way sensible conversation takes place and no one looses their temper. Please bare in mind that as adjudicators we are human.

I admit I know Mr Buckley but I do not always agree with what he says, I am permitted my own opinion.
 

cockaigne

Member
I've dipped in and out of this thread; clearly it is a very complicated and emotive subject. It's certainly unfortunate that a band has lost out, and that various individuals have had their reputations and conduct called into question.

One cannot help feel that this kind of conflict of interests (whether perceived or real) is all but inevitable when an adjudicator officiates presides over a regional contest at which he has had prior contact with some of the competing bands. Mr. Buckley is highly active as a conductor and trainer of bands in South Wales particularly, and there will probably be several bands (from across the sections) who will call upon him during the run-up to this year's area contest. I am sure this has happened before (albeit more common at local association contests than the Areas) but surely last year's incident highlights the potential for controversy arising when the adjudicator has such strong local ties - doubly so when the adjudicator is working alone.
 

BikeBadger

Member
One cannot help feel that this kind of conflict of interests (whether perceived or real) is all but inevitable when an adjudicator officiates presides over a regional contest at which he has had prior contact with some of the competing bands. Mr. Buckley is highly active as a conductor and trainer of bands in South Wales particularly, and there will probably be several bands (from across the sections) who will call upon him during the run-up to this year's area contest. I am sure this has happened before (albeit more common at local association contests than the Areas) but surely last year's incident highlights the potential for controversy arising when the adjudicator has such strong local ties - doubly so when the adjudicator is working alone.
Exactly. I was told that Mr Buckley was to adjudicate at Swansea whilst sipping a cup of hot chocolate at the 2011 Welsh Open. Reaction around our table was absolute incredulity. Stupidity is a quality the Welsh Committee displays regularly, in spades. But Mr Buckley is an intelligent and honest man. I find it bewildering that he could not foresee the problems his acceptance of the appointment could cause to arise.
 

cockaigne

Member
As an adjudicator myself I know that some people always disagree with whatever the result is. But there are correct ways to at least air your view without aggression.

Following any contest I have adjudicated at I have always made myself available to discuss whatever the result with anyone interested in asking my opinions.

This way sensible conversation takes place and no one looses their temper.
David, I admire this approach. I have competed (both as player and conductor) where the adjudicator gave his general overview/remarks as a prece to the results, and then made a swift exit before the final applause (after the results) had even begun to die down. This is purely speculation, but I did wonder if this was in any way connected to the fact that his general comments and the result he had given seemed almost entirely at odds with one another - I had heard all the bands in the section concerned, and would have appreciated the discuss the results with him.
 
Things move on, but it appears this thread is well and truely stuck in 2011. I have contributed to this thread before as a member of Wrexham Band, when the majority of my posts had the full support of the band. I have since rejoined my local band so my future posts are my own views only. I did represent Wrexham at the Appeal, and I did compile the majority of the written statement. The statement was an account of the incident(s) gathered from my fellow bandsmen at Wrexham who were involved combined with the written evidence that was presented to the Appeal and which, I assume, formed the reason leading to the ban.

I listened very carefully throughout the Appeal, recorded what was said, and carefully gave any information that I could honestly give. I state here and now that there was nothing said while I was in that room that contridicted the statement we presented, it was all fact. That statement is recorded in this thread many pages back. Having been verbally given the result by the Chairman (and offered information that a letter would follow) I left Cheltenham. I strongly believe that our statement was not contridicted and nothing was stated during the Appeal, by any party, that jusified the ban remaining on Wrexham Band (it should be noted again - that we only requested Waynes ban to be reduced or suspended). Therefore the promised letter was vital as it would surely contain the information that would satisfy Wrexham Band, and by the amount of posts on this thread, many others. To my knowledge no letter has arrived and therefore we are no further forward.

I was with Wrexham for just over a year, and in that year I believe I witnessed the Bands weakness. It was a weakness brought about by various and unfortunate events. Our Chairman resigned and our Contest Secretary suffered a very disabling illness. Wrexhams weakness was that it did not respond to these events and the administrative function of the Band faltered. I felt throughout my time with the Band that it was a little disfunctional, but what of it, the members were happy, we performed and we contested quite successfully. I know some bands have committees and goodness knows what to support them, but Wrexham were happy with what it had.

However, I believe this weakness allowed others, and in particular the WRC, to ride roughshod over the Band. What a disgrace from a governing body. No support, no communication and to all intents and purpose no contact. The band was on its own being apparently attacked by the organisation of which it was a part. I have more to say, but I do not want to attack the Welsh Banding authorities too much because that is why I joined Wrexham after 8 years out of banding, to become part of the welsh banding scene. I am an Abergavenny boy at heart and hope to return some day.

Two parting comments.
1. In their written statement Wrexham Band accepted that Mr Buckley did not take the winning band in the 12 months leading to the 2011 Contest. Wrexham Band has never alleged that he did, only that members of the Band had collectively heard a statement that indicated that he had. Wrexham Band wanted the reassurance that he had not. Wrexham Band did not and I hope will not attack another Brass Band in this way.

2. The performance. Wrexham Band recorded a performance of the Test Piece on the Thursday before the contest that would definitely have been a contender for the prizes (I think). The bands performance on the day unfortunately fell well short of that, I think many at Wrexham would agree. However, last place was a shock to us and indeed to the likes of 4BR and whoever else was listening. We never suggested to anyone the result for the prizes was in doubt.

What a sad and sorry tale. But one that I feel deserves closure, and that should be provided by a governing body in the movement.
 

iancwilx

Well-Known Member
I don't really want to get involved in this, but I have to say that whoever is right or wrong, there should have been a letter from the WRC to explain their stance.
Has no one pestered the WRC for a reply? Does anyone from the WRC actually look at this website and are they aware that their integrity is being called into question?
I know that this is only a brass band forum, but it does reflect the opinions of a reasonable percentage of the brass band fraternity.
The lack of response from the WRC leads me to suspect that they are perhaps totally ignorant of the existence of brass band news/discussion websites, or, even worse, they choose to ignore modern media exposure.
If they do not reply then IMHO they will have done themselves no favours and demeaned themselves in the eyes of the "Movement" in general. Now there's an adjective they may recognise !

- Mr Wilx
 
I seem to recall that one of the contributors on here said he was a member of the appeal panel. So it seems that at least someone is reading this.
 

back beat

Member
I spoke to a mate of mine who plays with another band in South Wales. Apparently CBB taking rehearsals for the winning band before the contest was common knowledge. I just don't know who to believe any more.......
Spot on! The problem is that nobody will speak out in fear of a backlash.
Just be careful what you are saying on here because Mr Buckley and Mr Morris are regular visitors to this thread.
 
The Appeal was convened by Kapitol Promotions National Co-ordinator and I sent an email to him on 30 December requesting information on the promised letter. He replied very promptly and stated "I cannot say whether or not a letter was sent to you or the band. I will however forward this letter and I trust that you do hear something in the near future".
 

jackocorn

Member
Maybe a symptom, but I just went onto the Kapitol site as I may go to Wales to see my sister's band. This is the information they have:

Brangwyn Hall, Swansea
Saturday 17 and Sunday 18 March
Closing date for entries: to be confirmed

All of the other Areas tell when the sections are on. And surely the closing date has passed?
 

TheMusicMan

tMP Founder
Staff member
Spot on! The problem is that nobody will speak out in fear of a backlash.
Just be careful what you are saying on here because Mr Buckley and Mr Morris are regular visitors to this thread.
... as indeed they are entitled so to do.

It would seem that this thread is just not going to lay to rest, which means that either there is genuine interest in the subject, or that it's being continued, well, just because...!!

As long as the comments made are opinions, and nothing becomes personally insulting or accusatory without foundation - which has happened a few times in this thread - then, as we are a brass discussion forum, we will allow it to continue.

It seems that the topic remains a delicate and emotive issue, for everyone involved. Remember, there are always two sides to a discussion, so please keep them civil, many thanks.
 

ploughboy

Active Member
Remember, there are always two sides to a discussion,
It is a shame that on an open forum, we are only hearing one side. Wrexham have put their case concisely (several pages ago), it is a shame that no one has answered their points, perhaps if there had been a response early on, this thread wouldn't have last nearly as long!
 

TheMusicMan

tMP Founder
Staff member
It is a shame that on an open forum, we are only hearing one side. Wrexham have put their case concisely (several pages ago), it is a shame that no one has answered their points, perhaps if there had been a response early on, this thread wouldn't have last nearly as long!
Personally Gary, I tend to agree and it might have helped. I have no objections to this thread continuing for as long as it has, nor if it continues; we are or course a public discussion forum, and if subjects are topical - then long may their discussions prevail.

However, things are not always as clear as they might appear and there may very well be pragmatic and sensible reasons as to why we haven't been presented with both sides of the debate.
 
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