Paddy's Welsh Area - 2011

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GJG

Well-Known Member
I'm not so sure you can separate the two so easily. For a performance to be musical there must be a degree of technical excellence, and I have certainly been a part of some hugely satisfying contest performances where the band and MD have wrung every musical drop from some tremendous pieces.
There will always be exceptions. I don't agree that concert performances can't be prepared to the same exacting standards required of contest performances. Personally, that is always my aim.
 

boourns

Member
There will always be exceptions. I don't agree that concert performances can't be prepared to the same exacting standards required of contest performances. Personally, that is always my aim.
Obviously it will depend on the piece, but some of the very best brass band music has been written for the contest stage so I'd hardly call it the exception. And whilst there is no reason why concert pieces cannot be rehearsed to the same standard, it's a fact of life that they are generally not.
 

GJG

Well-Known Member
... some of the very best brass band music has been written for the contest stage
... and some very fine brass band music has been written by composers who were not writing with contesting in mind; Ray Steadman-Allen is an obvious example, and there are others. And when I mentioned "exceptions" I wasn't talking about the pieces, but rather those contest performances that manage to combine technical and musical excellence (and still come in the prizes!). I maintain that such performances are the exception rather than the rule, because of the musical constraints placed on contesting.

I suspect we will have to politely agree to disagree; it seems obvious that we are coming from opposite directions when we talk about technical v. musical performance.
 

boourns

Member
I suspect we will have to politely agree to disagree; it seems obvious that we are coming from opposite directions when we talk about technical v. musical performance.
You're probably right, but what I think we're probably disagreeing about is the degree to which contesting constrains musicality (if I ignore the subtly patronising tone of your post).
 

Rustonw

Member
54 Days since the appeal and still NO letter of explanation from the Welsh Regional Council. This makes it 40 days late.

In my opinion this is because there is, or never was a valid reason to impose a ban on anyone. The only people to bring the Welsh regional Contest disrepute are Philip Morris, The WRC and at least one of the Appeals panel members.

TIME FOR THE BAN TO BE LIFTED WREXHAM TO BE REINSTATED.
 

tubafran

Active Member
I'm sure I could track back and find this out, but..... have you and the band not been given the outcome of the appeal? What more do you think they will be adding to the decision?

Id agree it seems to be a derisory way to treat you and the band by not issuing the letter you were promised in the 14 day period but it isnt going to provide you with any further evidence to overule their decision is it?
 

Ianroberts

Well-Known Member
I'm sure I could track back and find this out, but..... have you and the band not been given the outcome of the appeal? What more do you think they will be adding to the decision?

Id agree it seems to be a derisory way to treat you and the band by not issuing the letter you were promised in the 14 day period but it isnt going to provide you with any further evidence to overule their decision is it?
I would of thought the letter would be to explain the reasons that they upheld the original decision. It looks to me like they are frantically trying to concoct a he said that she said to him, then he did what they said type of letter. ABSOLUTE DISGRACE !!
 
I have waited a few days before this post:
Seems to me that conductor andf band have a legal case based on failure to adhere to due process.
 

Thirteen Ball

Active Member
At this rate, they may not get formal notification of the outcome of the appeal befor next year's areas. What do they do then? Turn up?
 

towse1972

Active Member
I wonder if the prolonged delay in notification is because the association are taking advice regarding the legality of their decision?
Either way it's certainly bad form to have delayed the official notification this long.
 

Thirteen Ball

Active Member
One would hope it's an explanation that shows it's due to throughness and legal precedent - but then I would have expected that the band should have been notified of the reason for the delay at least. One would also have hoped that the members of the initial enquiry and appeal panel would have had the foresight to take legal advice before undertaking any proceedings.

If we're talking legalities, consider the rules on most traffic offences. Due to several cases where police/enforcement forces were in very poor time in prosecuting alleged perpatrators (mostly speeding cases from speed cameras) the law is now such that if you're not informed of most offences by notice of intended prosectiontion letter within 28 days, the offence then becomes non-enforceable.

Since (according to the date of mr Ruston's post #646) it's now 63 days, they've exceeded that more than twice over which I agree is very bad form if nothing else.
 
What are the perimeters of the ban? Not being allowed to take part in the contest of course, does this include not being allowed in the Brangwyn Hall that weekend? Also is Mr Ruston banned from playing for a band there too or is it a conducting ban only? Are the conductor & band banned from entering a different region? Just curious, thanks.
 
Will this thread run until the 2012 Welsh Regional Contest? Sadly I think it will. I have before me a copy of the letter sent by Philip Morris on Welsh Regional Council headed paper dated 19 April 2011. It states "Therefore the council has decided to exclude Wrexham Brass from the 2012 Welsh Regional Contest and Mr Ruston from the 2012 & 2013 Contest". Pretty unambiguous to me! It seems clear to me that they (somebody) sees fit to extend this nationally..... is this because somebody had the front to suggest Wrexham might join another Area to get around the ban? As far as I am concerned Welsh Banding should be ashamed if a member band even contemplated leaving the Welsh Area, let alone actually taking the step. On a personal level, as a welshman, I joined Wrexham to be part of the Welsh Banding scene!

I felt as I left Cheltenham on 24 September 2011 that, although bitterly disappointed by the decision of the Appeal Panel, a letter which I was told would arrive approximately 2 weeks later (due to the whole Panel having to approve the contents before completion/despatch to the Band) would explain their findings and put the whole thing to bed once and for all. It would also put an end to this thread! I actually feel I must have been hearing things at the conclusion of that Appeal because 63 days after the event no letter has arrived. But wait a minute, I am an intelligent, diligent, and honest individual.....they did say what they did. Thank goodness for euphomanic who (hopefully the administrators can confirm) was on the Panel and stated that he would do his utmost to have that report expedited. That was posted on 7 November on this thread, less than 3 weeks ago, but at least it proved to me I was not hearing things 2 months ago.

The Appeal was primarily made on behalf of the Band (full details in the statement I posted a few pages ago) as we strongly believed the playing members were not guilty as charged. The Appeal against WR was only to reduce his ban with some mitigation stated in his favour - again read the statement if you are so inclined. Although argued by some on this thread the MD and Band are as one, we argued that as the WRC imposed 2 separate bans (indeed one member of the Appeal Panel overturned one ban and not the other) then we wanted to dispute and overturn the ban placed on the Band and the Band alone. In my opinion it is the WRC that made a definite distinction between the actions of WR and the playing members of the Band.

If we could only find out why they made the decision that they did then we, as previously stated, could put this to bed. But finally, please get on with it the WRC. We raised issues with your handling of this incident and procedure during the Appeal, surely you wanted to act swiftly and correctly following the Appeal. I can clearly see the Band has little recourse to take this anywhere else, but I would ask Welsh Area members to pass back your disappointments in the way this affair has been handled. We at Wrexham stuck our head above the parapet to clearly vent our frustrations, are things just going to continue in the same vein. I am also sure our representatives and leaders in Welsh Banding are at least hearing about this dispute, maybe they would like to say what they believe.

This post is my thoughts on the situation and I have not canvassed support from Wrexham Band to post.
 

scotchgirl

Active Member
One would hope it's an explanation that shows it's due to throughness and legal precedent - but then I would have expected that the band should have been notified of the reason for the delay at least. One would also have hoped that the members of the initial enquiry and appeal panel would have had the foresight to take legal advice before undertaking any proceedings.

If we're talking legalities, consider the rules on most traffic offences. Due to several cases where police/enforcement forces were in very poor time in prosecuting alleged perpatrators (mostly speeding cases from speed cameras) the law is now such that if you're not informed of most offences by notice of intended prosectiontion letter within 28 days, the offence then becomes non-enforceable.

Since (according to the date of mr Ruston's post #646) it's now 63 days, they've exceeded that more than twice over which I agree is very bad form if nothing else.
I think that 28 day thing is only if they weren't given a magistrates hearing (like a speeding ticket or parking offence that isn't contested)...if there is a magistrates hearing then the defendant would usually be present at the hearing...and are given the chance to attend. IF they don't attend, then it's their own fault if they don't find out immediately what the outcome of the hearing was....My remembrance of magistrates/court rules etc, is very sketchy though. It's been a long time since I worked there lol!

Since there were people from the band at the hearing (as far as I can tell) - they already know what was discussed, and what the outcome was. The letter would only serve to confirm it. Especially since it was an appeal, so they've, in essence, had the information twice. What the band should do, is check the rules to see whether there is a clause which states that the outcomes of hearings become invalid if they are not confirmed in writing within a specified time.

Mind you, it isn't exactly a court of law is it? I would check the rules though...get clarification...then notify the Area that they are in breach of the rules (if that is the case).
 
I think that 28 day thing is only if they weren't given a magistrates hearing (like a speeding ticket or parking offence that isn't contested)...if there is a magistrates hearing then the defendant would usually be present at the hearing...and are given the chance to attend. IF they don't attend, then it's their own fault if they don't find out immediately what the outcome of the hearing was....My remembrance of magistrates/court rules etc, is very sketchy though. It's been a long time since I worked there lol!

Since there were people from the band at the hearing (as far as I can tell) - they already know what was discussed, and what the outcome was. The letter would only serve to confirm it. Especially since it was an appeal, so they've, in essence, had the information twice. What the band should do, is check the rules to see whether there is a clause which states that the outcomes of hearings become invalid if they are not confirmed in writing within a specified time.

Mind you, it isn't exactly a court of law is it? I would check the rules though...get clarification...then notify the Area that they are in breach of the rules (if that is the case).
The band did indeed have somebody present at the hearing. We know what was discussed during the presentation of the statement, although much of this discussion was a cross-question of the statement. What we also know is the result as we were told at the conclusion of the hearing. What we do not know is what was discussed behind closed doors which resulted in the outcome. As we believe the band was innocent we would like to know which part of our appeal they did not accept. In my eyes we used the evidence they collected to prove the band members did not deserve the ban placed upon them. In addition, what we do not know is what discussions took place at the origional meeting of the WRC when the ban was initially imposed.
 

scotchgirl

Active Member
That's what I meant...if I was in your band, I would check the rules to see if there is a clause that states that any decision made by the committee (especially in regard to banning a band/conductor) MUST be explained, in full, to the band within a certain amount of time...and also, what will happen should that not come forth.

This the area in which I think your band might have a case to put forward. Mainly because it isn't good enough to issue a ban without allowing the band/conductor the chance to defend themselves against the full allegations and the decisions behind the banning (in my opinion, obviously).

Does anyone know if there is actually a rule that states that bands have to be informed of the outcomes and minutes (essentially) of any hearings to decide the future of a band who are facing a ban?
 

Rustonw

Member
Congratulations to Philip Morris and the Welsh regional Council! You have reached your 50!

Yes it's now over 50 days since Wrexham Brass and myself should have received our letter explaining why our appeal had been rejected.

It is obvious that there are NO valid reasons why this ban should stand, So there is no reason why Wrexham Brass should be refused entry to the 2012 Area Contest.

It is time for Philip Morris to resign his position with the Welsh Regional Council, his handling of this whole situation is a total disgrace.

WR
 
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