NW Areas Result - What happened? #Regs2016

marksmith

Active Member
What a fascinating thread, with a plethora of mixed views.
I cannot comment directly on Sunday's result, other than the expected names appeared in the results frame. Fairly predictable.
As people on this site know, I never post anominously, or shy away from having controversial opinions, a fact that does little to win friends at times!
Those of us that say it how we see it, tend to attract the strongest responses, as our points often question the established practices and norms, which some may find non-pc or 'uncomfortable'.
My own junior experiences of adjudication (solo contests etc), allows me a minor insight in to the mindset of both competitors and adjudicators.
Firstly, there is no avoiding the fact that we all recognise sounds and styles of individual performers, even within a group or band. We are a fairly tight knit community, after all!
Personal opinions will always exist about what an adjudicator 'expects to hear', often influencing preparation and choice of music etc.
This is up to the adjudicator to reinforce or dismiss, to allay any doubt.
The prime objective is to place the best performances in rank order, but only in your own opinion! This has to be accepted by all involved, it is a matter of trust that no individual biases influence the outcome.
At the solo contests that I have adjudicated, many of the competitors are old friends, ex-playing buddies or past 'rivals' from my own playing days. Does this ever affect my decisions? Never!
They have to trust my integrity and respect my reasons for placing them where I have, always summed up before announcing the results.
If I struggle to separate two players, both being equally musical and technically correct, then it has to be my enjoyment of their performances that makes the difference, most definitely subjective. Will everyone agree with me? Probably not, that really is how it needs to be, trust me.
We are forgetting how to trust one another in modern society but it is a fundamental foundation on which we successfully co-exist.
The result on sunday was maybe a difficult one to rank for the adjudicators but we need to trust that it was made with both honesty and integrity on the day. Otherwise, why bother competing?
 

fartycat

Member
clause (23d)
I find this information disturbing, Farty Cat, and thank you for posting it. I believe one of your own players suffered a ban for sending a private text to an adjudicator. A local Midlands conductor was given a two year ban for his poor conduct after the contest results; and this also was extended to his band which subsequently folded as a direct result of the decision.
It doesn't seem right that the Appeal panel is made up from the very people the complaint is about.
How much right do they really have to inspect an individual comment on an online forum?
Are they going to demand the identity of posters from the forum host?
This seems to be highly controlling behaviour and I have my doubts on its legality in this country; free speech and all that. Before I would have just shrugged and said "that's banding" but now I think this is sinister.
This new rule has I think been snuck in without much debate - who is to define what offensive means in various contexts? I worry about this, I really do. Our regional committee puts out a message along the lines of 'don't complain on the internet, write to us directly', then when you do just that suggesting constructive criticism they get very defensive. Who is to say if one of them will get so stressed by my campaign to allow brass players to warm up before they go on stage that they find my remarks 'offensive' and have me up on a charge?

There are already several laws that would see a poster arrested if the post is genuinely offensive, I'm not sure that brass bands need a further clause and this is overkill.

Sort of re the banned player, but he wasn't playing of us at the time. There were genuine mitigating circumstances and the way he was dealt with was not good. Kangeroo court springs to mind.

Incidentally, does any other area not publish their minutes or accounts? Ours has a specific clause that prevents publishing of the accounts which I find astonishing seeing as though the money sitting there has come from bands and bandsmen and women.
 

Euphman2

Active Member
It is quite ridiculous that in 2016, open adjudication isn't used for the area contests. o_O
If it was, might a great part of the previous posts be totally negated or irrelevant. The openness and integrity of adjudicators would have to be laid bare for all to see (or hear).
 

Ianroberts

Well-Known Member
If it was, might a great part of the previous posts be totally negated or irrelevant. The openness and integrity of adjudicators would have to be laid bare for all to see (or hear).
I'm a big believer in 2 adjudicators sat out in the open, positioned with the full width of the hall away from each other, with no contact once the contest starts. That's the only way you will get a true adjudication because one or the other will always be senior / more famous / to influence the other.
 
This new rule has I think been snuck in without much debate - who is to define what offensive means in various contexts? I worry about this, I really do. Our regional committee puts out a message along the lines of 'don't complain on the internet, write to us directly', then when you do just that suggesting constructive criticism they get very defensive. Who is to say if one of them will get so stressed by my campaign to allow brass players to warm up before they go on stage that they find my remarks 'offensive' and have me up on a charge?

There are already several laws that would see a poster arrested if the post is genuinely offensive, I'm not sure that brass bands need a further clause and this is overkill.

Sort of re the banned player, but he wasn't playing of us at the time. There were genuine mitigating circumstances and the way he was dealt with was not good. Kangeroo court springs to mind.

Incidentally, does any other area not publish their minutes or accounts? Ours has a specific clause that prevents publishing of the accounts which I find astonishing seeing as though the money sitting there has come from bands and bandsmen and women.
IMHO
The legal status of this rule is dubious as it is not defined enough to apply. That is it will be open to interpretation and abuse and as it is posted on line it is by the nature of the wording a threat to individuals (I.e. Other members of the band who may be penalised) and interpreted as a breach of their own rule!
 

Mesmerist

Well-Known Member
What does the last point mean about seeking absolute clarity on the individual's views and the band he/she belongs to? If we join a band we must all think alike or at least not disagree openly? Does it mean the individual must be sacrificed and sacked by the band? Since when were individual opinions not allowed? I understand not accepting rudeness or derogatory comments but this almost reads as if no dissent is allowed at all.
 

boourns

Member
It is quite ridiculous that in 2016, open adjudication isn't used for the area contests. o_O
I tend to agree; if you insist on sticking your adjudicators in a box then you are implying from the outset that you don't trust them to give an unbiased opinion. However the adjudicators I've spoken to about this actually prefer to be in the box, not least because it allows them to focus solely on the performance without any visual distractions.
 
What I don't understand is how two adjudicators can hear different things to each other, or have different ideas of how the piece should sound. Surely beforehand the 2 of them should agree on things like style/acceptable variations in tempo etc.

A couple of years ago my daughter's band couldn't believe the differences in the comments. Adjudicator no.1 "good broad sounds to open". Adjudicator no.2 put "too legato for me". So a clear disagreement there. Then later one put "the waltz flows with good energy", whilst the other adjudicator wrote Waltz - sounds lumpy and doesn't flow". And again with the same piece one adjudicator heard "a good well balanced sound", as for the other .... "basses too heavy".

So if they are sat next to each other hearing different things, no wonder people in the audience all around the room will have different opinions on what they heard.
 

Adam Taylor

New Member
Hi there again,

Sorry to pop in on the middle of the thread - but I have been asked to post the following statement on behalf of my band, just to further clarify the situation.

As those who have read through all the responses will have seen, despite the original posters claim to be a member of Wingates band in their first post, they later clarified themselves that this is indeed not the case. But out of respect to our friends in other bands and to the people in the box and background, our Chairman would like to add publicly the following response to an email received from NWRBBCC:

"On behalf of Wingates Brass Band, I want to add our utter disgust, dismay
and astonishment regarding the publication on 'themouthpiece.com'website.

We completely refute, categorically, any involvement in connection with this
publication by 'Seffblatter' on said website.

I am saddened to hear that a representative of nwrbbcc.org.uk could possibly
think that a member of Wingates Brass Band would publish or be associated
with such defamatory remarks on the said website. You will note from the
communication trail that the said individual refers to listening to numerous
bands competing on the day, immediately before and after our performance
which as you know could not have been a player.

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that members of Wingates Brass
Band in the audience on the day were: -

Joy Mooney (my wife and Secretary/Assistant Treasurer)
Tony Smith (Vice Chairman and Contest Secretary)
Pam Black (Contest Secretary)
Sharon Billington (Wife of 1st Horn player)
Jane Day (partner of Eb Bass player)

None of whom have had any association with said website and who would
certainly not engage in such disgraceful and disrespectful behaviour.

It is our intention to attach a copy of this email on 'themouthpiece.com'
website to totally refute any association from this alleged and dishonest
connection to Wingates Brass Band.

Should any other bands contact you regarding this matter, I would ask that
our position be known and clearly explained as detailed above.

Please do not hesitate to share or publish the contents of this email with
your association and any other affiliated bodies as you see fit.

It is with regret that this situation has occurred but I would like to
'thank you' for your communication in this matter.

Kind regards

Andrew Mooney
Chairman of Wingates Brass Band and Player/Member"


From my point of view (Adam here again) - and I should imagine I speak on behalf of most people - opinions on matters of great meaning in our lives should never be discouraged (even if we disagree with said opinions). I'm similarly sure that most people want a movement that continues to grow, improving and building on strengths and weaknesses. But the above is entirely in response to those opinions that are not reflective of the strong team (and indeed family) that we have down in Westhoughton.

The band are proud of their achievements at the weekend and want to thank those who have sent messages.

I suspect that there could be strong responses to the above and I hope that those who are following the thread make the most of the opportunity for good discussion. I would like to add though, that after this message, neither I nor any other current member of the band will be entering into further discussion on this particular thread - we've a big gig coming up in October, the hard work continues - there's no one who can dampen that spirit ;)

Best wishes to all,

Adam Taylor - trombone - Wingates Brass Band
 
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Seffblatter

New Member
Hi there again,

Sorry to pop in on the middle of the thread - but I have been asked to post the following statement on behalf of my band, just to further clarify the situation.

As those who have read through all the responses will have seen, despite the original posters claim to be a member of Wingates band in their first post, they later clarified themselves that this is indeed not the case. But out of respect to our friends in other bands and to the people in the box and background, our Chairman would like to add publicly the following response to an email received from NWRBBCC:

"On behalf of Wingates Brass Band, I want to add our utter disgust, dismay
and astonishment regarding the publication on 'themouthpiece.com'website.

We completely refute, categorically, any involvement in connection with this
publication by 'Seffblatter' on said website.

I am saddened to hear that a representative of nwrbbcc.org.uk could possibly
think that a member of Wingates Brass Band would publish or be associated
with such defamatory remarks on the said website. You will note from the
communication trail that the said individual refers to listening to numerous
bands competing on the day, immediately before and after our performance
which as you know could not have been a player.

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that members of Wingates Brass
Band in the audience on the day were: -

Joy Mooney (my wife and Secretary/Assistant Treasurer)
Tony Smith (Vice Chairman and Contest Secretary)
Pam Black (Contest Secretary)
Sharon Billington (Wife of 1st Horn player)
Jane Day (partner of Eb Bass player)

None of whom have had any association with said website and who would
certainly not engage in such disgraceful and disrespectful behaviour.

It is our intention to attach a copy of this email on 'themouthpiece.com'
website to totally refute any association from this alleged and dishonest
connection to Wingates Brass Band.

Should any other bands contact you regarding this matter, I would ask that
our position be known and clearly explained as detailed above.

Please do not hesitate to share or publish the contents of this email with
your association and any other affiliated bodies as you see fit.

It is with regret that this situation has occurred but I would like to
'thank you' for your communication in this matter.

Kind regards

Andrew Mooney
Chairman of Wingates Brass Band and Player/Member"


From my point of view (Adam here again) - and I should imagine I speak on behalf of most people - opinions on matters of great meaning in our lives should never be discouraged (even if we disagree with said opinions). I'm similarly sure that most people want a movement that continues to grow, improving and building on strengths and weaknesses. But the above is entirely in response to those opinions that are not reflective of the strong team (and indeed family) that we have down in Westhoughton.

The band are proud of their achievements at the weekend and want to thank those who have sent messages.

I suspect that there could be strong responses to the above and I hope that those who are following the thread make the most of the opportunity for good discussion. I would like to add though, that after this message, neither I nor any other current member of the band will be entering into further discussion on this particular thread - we've a big gig coming up in October, the hard work continues - there's no one who can dampen that spirit ;)

Best wishes to all,

Adam Taylor - trombone - Wingates Brass Band
My deepest apologies for the utter disgust, dismay, and astonishment caused to yourselves.

I am also sorry that you perceived my behaviour to be disgraceful and disrespectful :oops:

Just a note that nothing I've said is defamatory though since you haven't actually categorically proved my identity as false.

You gave it a good go though.

However, I will refute all connection to the band as its seemingly causing issues and in the interests of the thread continuing to be a positive discussion I think this is the way forward.

I have deleted part of my first post - because everyone who's associated with a band must have a uniform opinion because we're all homogenous eh?

P.S. I don't speak on behalf of any organisation at all, all opinions are my own..

NOW, let's actually continue the discussion as it was getting interesting - open adjudication and all :)
 
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Pauli Walnuts

Moderator
Staff member
This thread is now under moderation - all posts will be moderated before being approved.

Apparently that function doesn't work here after all - which is a shame.
 
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Sydney Fowlcoup

New Member
Having read with interest over many years the varied topics and opinions expressed on this site, I have finally felt the need to join simply to express my profound disappointment at what Mr Blatter thinks about Sundays Championship results in Blackpool.
Implied corruption amongst bands, and more particularly amongst adjudicators is deeply offensive and I suspect totally without foundation.
Might I suggest that he follow the example of his namesake and take similar action. ie, Get out of the brass band movement, and let those of us who enjoy it continue to do so without being subjected to such downright offensive, and slanderous drivel.
 

Seffblatter

New Member
Having read with interest over many years the varied topics and opinions expressed on this site, I have finally felt the need to join simply to express my profound disappointment at what Mr Blatter thinks about Sundays Championship results in Blackpool.
Implied corruption amongst bands, and more particularly amongst adjudicators is deeply offensive and I suspect totally without foundation.
Might I suggest that he follow the example of his namesake and take similar action. ie, Get out of the brass band movement, and let those of us who enjoy it continue to do so without being subjected to such downright offensive, and slanderous drivel.
Apologies that you feel profoundly disappointed with my drivel.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion - tis a free country after all :)
 

marksmith

Active Member
I am saddened to see how the thread has developed, as the various tangents have served to fuel true open discussion.
We are all becoming over-sensitive to generic, well meant observations, too often making them personal (when they are rarely meant to be so!)
Once tarred with being out to cause offence, it is difficult to be heard without bias, even to the point of being socially accepted by one's peers.
I feel that both Wingates and the modrator, have slightly over-reacted to this thread and created the feeling of a witch hunt against the original poster (which was obviously acceptable by mod standards, until today's statement?)
This is where we are losing the ability to share balanced, like-minded subjects without being condemned for individual viewpoints.
Personally, I have never considered the original post representative of Wingates, or their band management's views or beliefs and their name seemed to appear at a 'weak point' in the original poster's judgement.
Keep discussion open and as free as is possible, please tmp, as the site's success depends upon it.
 

Pauli Walnuts

Moderator
Staff member
Apologies that you feel profoundly disappointed with my drivel.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion - tis a free country after all :)
Opinion yes, libel, no.
You used the word Corruption in your OP - now unless you can back that up with fact, then that isn't opinion. So no, it isn't a free country.
 
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