NW Areas Result - What happened? #Regs2016

[Seffblatter]

I'm making this post from a new account as, due to the sorry state of banding, I cannot risk jeopardising the integrity of myself or my band which is incredibly important to me.

As many of you will be aware, lots of banders have sadly quit the hobby due to a disillusionment with the world of banding and how things are controlled/dealt with.

When concerns are raised, the response seems to be: 'That's Banding! ' which has always irked me slightly. So by that people mean: 'This is how things are done and even if they are corrupt and don't reward the players that deserve it.. it will always be like this so there's no point trying to change things for the better'. We don't live in a bloody military state - people are allowed freedom of speech for crying out loud.

Plus the people who always crack the 'That's Banding! ' line are always the ones who the bad decisions never affect because their bands aren't likely to win or don't have the desire to climb to the top and are simply competing for fun rather than to gain titles. Or it's the ones who seem to benefit from the corruption: I.E - in this case.. FODENS.

Well I'm sick of just sitting around and hearing about how banding will never change. The Championship Section result yesterday was an absolute joke and I'm more than entitled to have that opinion. I'm aware that many others have the same but choose to air their thoughts over a pint rather than using the internet as their platform. So I speak on behalf of all of us who were norked off yesterday and quite frankly disgusted and astonished that The Fairey Band or Leyland didn't scoop up the #1 spot. Fairey blew everyone out of the water and Leyland were similarly excellent and didn't even make the top 3! It's an absolute farce.

Obviously nobody can raise concerns because if His Majesty Nicholas Childs loses his high-ranking position in the banding universe then the whole system would collapse due to distrust and everything would need to be rebuilt again. But when you put your heart and soul into banding and take it seriously then stupid decisions like the one yesterday seriously affect you.

The bottom line is, Fairey should have won and Leyland should have qualified for the Nationals.

Would anybody else like to share their insight?

Discuss guys! It would be nice if we used this forum as a platform for discussion like we used to. It's been so quiet recently..

 

[James Yelland]

My random thoughts:

• You are indeed entitled to your opinion. So is everyone else, including the adjudicator.
• The adjudicator has no rules to adhere to, so his opinion is as valid as everyone else's.
• The adjudicator does not hear what everyone else in the hall hears, because
  • he's sitting in a box which common sense suggests must impede the sound which reaches his ears
  • he spends quite a lot of the performance time writing, and while he's doing so he isn't listening to the music or following the score
• The contest system is constructed so that it's only the adjudicator's opinion which is relevant - which when you think about it is the only way it can be
  
• Disillusion with 'banding' isn't the same as disillusion with 'making music'. In my playing days, I was happiest when I quit contesting and played only for non-contesting bands.

Just my tuppence worth.

 

[Bbmad]

So the adjudicator didn't agree with you? Happens at every contest, thats banding.

 

[stevetrom]

Largely agree with James, it is, in the end, the opinion of onw (or two) adjudicators.

If they got it 'wrong' there are a few possible reasons:
1. They had a difference of opinion with you - fair enough
2. They are not good enough at adjudicating - John Berryman & Stephen Roberts?
3. They are corrupt and did not judge fairly - again John Berryman & Stephen Roberts?

Just for information John Berryman has adjudocated at, at least, 341 contests and Stephen Roberts 70 so it think its hard to say they are not qualified to adjudicate.

John Berryman - Adjudicator - Brass Band Results

Stephen Roberts - Adjudicator - Brass Band Results

 

[grezz]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by corruption. Are you suggesting someone took a brown envelope stuffed with cash to ensure Fodens won?

 

[Euphonium Lite]

I'm making this post from a new account as, due to the sorry state of banding, I cannot risk jeopardising the integrity of myself or my band which is incredibly important to me.

...

In before I get accused of Sour Grapes.. I'm actually in Wingates band and have been for a long time. I am confused myself at why we were awarded second place. I felt that our performance didn't deserve that spot compared to other offerings on the day.

.

OK - so if you don't want to risk jeopardising yourself or your band, why name them?

In terms of your last statement around your own performance, you get a different perspective sitting amongst the stands to the one that the MD will get. And his will be slightly different to the Adjudicator. So you - personally - may not have felt you did well but it may well have come across differently

With regards to integrity of the adjudicator, each of the "top bands" has a unique sound - which admittedly makes a mockery of the closed system - but I think you have to either accept that most if not all adjudicators want to do a fair and balanced job, or you look for alternatives - which are probably just as open to "corruption". The system is generally better with 2 rather than 1 adjudicator, but I don't think anyone would consider it perfect. However if you don't like it, you have 3 choices :

1) Accept the status quo
2) Come up with a feasible working solution that will get rid of any issues whilst remaining cost effective for contest organisers
or
3) Don't contest

Most of our movement opt for 1 or 3 seemingly. However I'm sure there would be plenty willing to listen to you if you've got a decent (2).

Obviously we all want that holy grail of fair system that everyone agrees with, but trouble is we have a subjective system - and it has to be unless you are judged by a computer against a recording - and your location in the hall, whether you've got a cold, whether you have neighbours talking will all affect - slightly - how you hear a piece of music. And none of us - except the men that matter - are sitting in a tent

 

[Tom-King]

"That's banding".
Usually accompanied by a shrug of the shoulders and intended to kill that line of conversation (especially if you're clearly really unhappy and/or lining up conspiracy theories).

1) I'm not one of the adjudicators so it wasn't my decision
2) I'm not telepathic, so I don't know what the adjudicators were looking for
3) I'm not as experienced at judging a contest as the adjudicators
4) 99% of the audience isn't as experienced at judging either (and most of them haven't even seen the score, nevermind followed it through the performances), so I'm not going to trust "everyone who heard the bands thought...." as a more informed opinion than the adjudicators.
5) Interpretation counts for an awful lot - both within the piece and within approaches to adjudication, too. Listening to 2 different recordings of Cambridge V's: the Fairey 1993 Euro's and BNFL one on the area cd - very different interpretations of the piece: the Fairey one is mighty impressive, but whether every adjudicator would appreciate the wild deviations from marked tempo is the question? (And if you don't know which approach will be rewarded, best guess due to knowledge of adjudicators aside, then you choose to gamble on certain elements of interpretation or to play it safe - not knowing which will find favour).
6) I've been wondering recently whether there would be a lot of unpopular results this year... I think that the technically easier the pieces are for each section, the more nuances come into play and the more subjective the result becomes (vs technically difficult pieces, where mistakes knock a lot of bands out of contention) and clearly the more subjective the judging must be, the more potential there is for disagreements... and let's face it, none of the pieces this year are technically difficult picks (though none are inappropriate).

 

[Adam Taylor]

Never in my life have I replied to one of these but I must say, to whomever you are - how can you be so sure of the results and 'corruption' (if you are a member of Wingates band) as you didn't hear either Leyland or Fairies.

It is a sad world at times when people take pleasure in trying to create bother from behind their computers.

Well played to everybody at the regionals yesterday and best of luck to all who have their contests in the coming weeks.

Adam Taylor (trombone, Wingates Band, dancing in the changing room for both Leyland and Fairies performances pre and post our contribution).

 

[Rob2]

For clarification, when you say you are "in Wingates Band" is that as a player? If you were playing then with Leyland, Wingates & Faireys drawn 7th ,8th & 9th getting in for a proper listen would have taken some doing.........

 

[whitewitch]

I sat through all perfomances and I am in agreement with the original poster. Leyland were brilliant and it is disgusting where they were placed. On another day they would have easily won, but Faireys outdid them on the day. All the audience were talking about it and all the online predictions said the same. For the other placings, I would have put Foden's 3rd or 4th with Ashton in the other place. Foden's had a greater error count and were quite brash. The other top 6, I liked Blackburn and Darwen and Wingates. They had a very similar performance. Percussion prize, either Leyland or Fairey's. As long as people say 'that's banding' this will keep happening. It seems like hard work and perfection don't count in this game.

 

[Bbmad]

I sat through all perfomances and I am in agreement with the original poster. Leyland were brilliant and it is disgusting where they were placed. On another day they would have easily won, but Faireys outdid them on the day. All the audience were talking about it and all the online predictions said the same. For the other placings, I would have put Foden's 3rd or 4th with Ashton in the other place. Foden's had a greater error count and were quite brash. The other top 6, I liked Blackburn and Darwen and Wingates. They had a very similar performance. Percussion prize, either Leyland or Fairey's. As long as people say 'that's banding' this will keep happening. It seems like hard work and perfection don't count in this game.

The thing is that your opinion doesn't actually matter. The adjudicators came up with a different result. Thats just banding for you.
If you are so bothered, what are you going to do about it?

 

[Seffblatter]

I love that someone thinks that voicing a fairly common but not regularly voiced opinion is 'creating bother'! Bother! Love it. Nope I've no intention of creating so-called bother, I'm just using the brass band forum to voice my opinions on brass band happenings. No bother intended by friend and I'm sad that you've taken it this way - that's the problem with banding really and you've kind of proved my point. Any dissenters just get shot down and dismissed because they don't agree with the status quo.

And I LOOVE how people are getting so preoccupied with who I am. Nope I didn't play yesterday obviously. I was in the room when I heard Fairey and Wingates play. Not specifying anymore though because I'm under no obligation to and it will be a large clue as to who I am - aside from the fact that it's not relevant haha.

I appreciate the support Tom King and Whitewitch - it's nice to see that some of you guys who I was talking to yesterday are making an appearance on this thread.

The majority of posts on this thread are pretty funny. James Yelland, who has told you that being in the box distorts the sound of the bands so much so that they sound completely different? From experience, I can tell you that it's codswollop. Yes, the sound is slightly muffled so a little quieter but it's quite clear who performs the best as the actual musicality does not change... Or there'd be no point in the contests taking place if the adjudicators couldn't hear properly and were just placing bands randomly.

I love all the 'that's banding' comments - you are what is wrong with this hobby - congrats!

And saying about how amazingly experienced, professional, knowledgeable etc the adjudicators were.. Are you seriously telling me that they are perfectly objective individuals who have zero personal interests? I surely don't have to tell you how many people have been thought to be amazing and have turned out to be shown up as having personal interest.

If this post may influence the opinion of one person, then it's a success. I know that old habits die hard which is why the majority of you are too closed minded to see that as the hobby is made up of us... banders then if we want something to change then it has to or the hobby won't successfully continue. Let's make this hobby more open instead of a hush hush cloak and dagger affair with people making decisions in 'darkened rooms'

 

[whitewitch]

There is nothing anyone can do. The gasps from all the audience when Leyland came 6th and Fairey's came 3rd said it all. The frustrating thing is that you can't do anything about it. What do other people do - walk away from banding. So it's not very constructive is it. I didn't play in the section, so don't have an axe to grind in any way.

 

[Euphonium Lite]

So - WhiteWitch presumably from your comment, you're an adjudicator for one of the other top section areas or an MD in the top section? And you were sitting in direct line with the adjudicators?

If not then how do you know Foden's error count was higher? I appreciate that people often buy study scores to follow at contests, but adjudicators and MDs have put in months of study.

Obviously if you do fall in to the stated group and you've been studying the score for months then fair enough

As for the media, more often or not 4BR and others get their predictions totally wrong. Especially in the lower sections. That's probably because they are sitting in a different area of the hall and hear things differently - and haven't been studying the score for months either

 

[bigman_holland]

Northwest area results- what happened?
I'll tell you what happened. Thornton Cleveleys were crowned 4th section champs and are heading to the finals for the 1st time in our history. Get in there.

 

[Seffblatter]

The thing is that your opinion doesn't actually matter. The adjudicators came up with a different result. Thats just banding for you.
If you are so bothered, what are you going to do about it?

I laughed out loud at this. You're a 'that's banding' champion. Love it. Would you say this to people who revolt against autocratic governments and stuff.

Why have a crappy version of banding when we can have an awesome improved version?

 

[Tom-King]

I appreciate the support Tom King and Whitewitch - it's nice to see that some of you guys who I was talking to yesterday are making an appearance on this thread.

Sorry - just to be clear... I wasn't at NW area yesterday, and I'm not sure there's much on this thread I agree with you on.

Not sure whether I know you or not (due to anonymity) but I wasn't there so I didn't speak to you there.

 

[Seffblatter]

So - WhiteWitch presumably from your comment, you're an adjudicator for one of the other top section areas or an MD in the top section? And you were sitting in direct line with the adjudicators?

If not then how do you know Foden's error count was higher? I appreciate that people often buy study scores to follow at contests, but adjudicators and MDs have put in months of study.

Obviously if you do fall in to the stated group and you've been studying the score for months then fair enough

As for the media, more often or not 4BR and others get their predictions totally wrong. Especially in the lower sections. That's probably because they are sitting in a different area of the hall and hear things differently - and haven't been studying the score for months either

I'm an adjudicator, me me pick me!

 

[Seffblatter]

Sorry - just to be clear... I wasn't at NW area yesterday, and I'm not sure there's much on this thread I agree with you on.

Not sure whether I know you or not (due to anonymity) but I wasn't there so I didn't speak to you there.

What you on about Tom we go way back?!

 

[Tom-King]

What you on about Tom we go way back?!

Think you may be confusing me with someone else (mostly because I was NOT at NW area contest at any point - was at band practice in Brum when the results came up).