Andy_Euph
Active Member
http://www.4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=15883
Just read the above article....banding shown in a positive light again(!)
Just read the above article....banding shown in a positive light again(!)
Misplaced "joke"...
- Thread starter Andy_Euph
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The Godfather
Member
Oh dear, here we go again. Come on the P C brigade, have a good rant and then get over it. You need to understand that being an adjudicator, or a top class instrumentalist does not always mean that you have either common sense, or any particular sense of occasion. Banding is obviously going the same way as premiership football. Certainly ill-judged, and just the sort of stuff that the local authority jobsworths will milk for all its worth. 'Entertainment' ? no, just unbelievable.
08cbinns
Member
:clap:
TUBAWAY ARMY
Member
Calm down now, it's all being blown out of proportion. It was funny to watch, the audience were laughing (and lets face it, 95% of brass band audiences are old enough to remember when The Black and White Minstrels were considered the height of light entertaniment) and took no offence whatsoever.
It's sad that we have become a nation where the 'so called' political corrective brigade have done more to increase racism ! Anyone remember the TV series Love Thy Neighbour ? About time it was shown again to put things into perspective.
TUBAWAY ARMY
Member
Why ??? Were you there to witness it ?
Louder/faster/higher
Member
If you read the s
Louder/faster/higher
Member
If everyone reads the statement before going off all guns blazing.
you will see that both graham and Stan have given their apologies.
They have admited it was a mistake.
Lets not go on another witch hunt especially against 2 of the brass band movements respected memebers.
It has already been mentioned in the bolsover thread lets not give the pot stirrers a chance to make more of a simple mistake /bad judgement and blow it out of all proportion.
The weekend was about the music and all the bands that performed whether they won or not.
I think the mods should lock all threads where this is being discussed before it turns in to character assanation.
you will see that both graham and Stan have given their apologies.
They have admited it was a mistake.
Lets not go on another witch hunt especially against 2 of the brass band movements respected memebers.
It has already been mentioned in the bolsover thread lets not give the pot stirrers a chance to make more of a simple mistake /bad judgement and blow it out of all proportion.
The weekend was about the music and all the bands that performed whether they won or not.
I think the mods should lock all threads where this is being discussed before it turns in to character assanation.
mikelyons
Supporting Member
If anybody has a right to be offended at this slightly off-colour joke (pun intended) then it is people of afro-american descent, whose ancestors were the negro slaves who were parodied in the Black and White Minstrel Show type of entertainment. Nobody else need apply. Bad taste and poor judgement can happen to anyone - particularly those of us getting on in years who wonder where common sense went to - I'm sorry to say that IanPorthouse should have known better. (But then so should Stan and Graham.)
Bones
Member
At the end of the day it was a poor error of judgement. Yes, the apologies have come quickly and sincerely and one would argue that should be the end of it. But to contenance some of the comments made.
1. The PC brigade, and Black and White Minstrels. That was 30 yrs ago, sadly we are living in the here and now, and the here and now doesnt allow nor care for it.
2. Ian Porthouse should have known better. Why should he. He felt the wordplay on his name and more so the comment that went along the line of "if I've offended anyone, I dont care", was too much and as such he made comment to it. Let's face, he certainly didnt mark the band down as they came 2nd and also Andy Kennedy deservedly won the solo prize.
3. Who sponsors the contest. Well, it is a local authority, and a local authority would have some pretty strong diversity regulations that need to be adhered to. Whilst they cant enforce them against non employees they certainly may think twice about sponsoring a contest if there was a danger that potentially inflammatory material was considered the norm.
At the end of the day, it was a dreadful error of judgement, and whether or not you think it is PC or not, in today's modern age, it just isnt right. Stan and Graham have on reflection seen that and apologised, I would have expected no less from them being the kind of guys they are.
Closing this thread down, I dont think so. As that sort of censorship is brutal and stifling of opinions that are valid. However, if I was John and the Mods, I would strongly recommened on this and other threads like it, that malicious and libellous comments against individuals and Racial inflammatory comments are not accepted and lock down the individuals not the thread. I am sure they are doing that already.
I agree with Mike K though, a shame that an excellent weekend's music is now remebered for this. Not disimilar to the whole twittergate element at Butlins. A real shame.
1. The PC brigade, and Black and White Minstrels. That was 30 yrs ago, sadly we are living in the here and now, and the here and now doesnt allow nor care for it.
2. Ian Porthouse should have known better. Why should he. He felt the wordplay on his name and more so the comment that went along the line of "if I've offended anyone, I dont care", was too much and as such he made comment to it. Let's face, he certainly didnt mark the band down as they came 2nd and also Andy Kennedy deservedly won the solo prize.
3. Who sponsors the contest. Well, it is a local authority, and a local authority would have some pretty strong diversity regulations that need to be adhered to. Whilst they cant enforce them against non employees they certainly may think twice about sponsoring a contest if there was a danger that potentially inflammatory material was considered the norm.
At the end of the day, it was a dreadful error of judgement, and whether or not you think it is PC or not, in today's modern age, it just isnt right. Stan and Graham have on reflection seen that and apologised, I would have expected no less from them being the kind of guys they are.
Closing this thread down, I dont think so. As that sort of censorship is brutal and stifling of opinions that are valid. However, if I was John and the Mods, I would strongly recommened on this and other threads like it, that malicious and libellous comments against individuals and Racial inflammatory comments are not accepted and lock down the individuals not the thread. I am sure they are doing that already.
I agree with Mike K though, a shame that an excellent weekend's music is now remebered for this. Not disimilar to the whole twittergate element at Butlins. A real shame.
P_S_Price
Member
There are some "jokes" that shouldnt be made, and this kind of racial slur is one of them, particularly if the ...I dont care who is offended... implication is true.
30 years ago there was a TV program - Love thy neighbour - would anyone claim that this programme should be resurrected, or the Racial slurs in it be re-hashed or tolerated?
So why should a re-hashing of the B&W minstrel be supported? It clearly has its origins back in American Slavery.
Its good that appologies have been tendered, and that should be the end of that.
But on a wider scale I dont consider myself too PC, But Racial slurs arent PC in my view, and we as a society; regardless of any kind of banding movenment, shouldnt tolerate them.
30 years ago there was a TV program - Love thy neighbour - would anyone claim that this programme should be resurrected, or the Racial slurs in it be re-hashed or tolerated?
So why should a re-hashing of the B&W minstrel be supported? It clearly has its origins back in American Slavery.
Its good that appologies have been tendered, and that should be the end of that.
But on a wider scale I dont consider myself too PC, But Racial slurs arent PC in my view, and we as a society; regardless of any kind of banding movenment, shouldnt tolerate them.
I read the comments on this thread before reading the article and assumed someone must have inadvertently said something in an off-the-top-of-the-head speech which hit a non-PC nerve. I was therefore ready to join the defending view, knowing that it is difficult to always say the right things in those situations.
However, on reading that it was a pre-planned activity which in my mind had no chance of being regarded as appropriate, I agree that there is no excuse for such behaviour. What on earth were they thinking about?
However, on reading that it was a pre-planned activity which in my mind had no chance of being regarded as appropriate, I agree that there is no excuse for such behaviour. What on earth were they thinking about?
Red Elvis
Active Member
Just read the story on 4br. I know they have a tendency towards sensationalism at times ( seem to recall a story a couple of years back after an ents contest when they castigated a band for dressing in KKK robes when they were actually dressed as monks or similar , and of course twittergate@Butlins has been mentioned...although I was interested to note that one of the alleged perpetrators of this , who's head on a plate 4br were calling for at the time was subsequently granted wide coverage and promotion by them in the run up to the Nationals this year!) but on this occasion the story does seem justified.
As above , this goes beyond a Daily-Mail-esque "its PC gone mad" story. Surely , in this day and age the whole concept of "blacking up" should be well understood for the racist overtones thereof (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface for more) and I can't understand how either the MD or soloist saw this as being appropriate. What on earth crossed their minds ?
The "If I've offended anyone then I'm not bothered" quote (IF true) would be as disturbing as the behaviour in itself. I appreciate that we are all human , all make mistakes and an apology has been made. But , rightly or wrongly , this came from one of banding's most well known ( and hitherto , most respected) personalities and as such Mr Lippeat , like perhaps a John Terry or Ashley Cole finds himself under more srutiny than the "ordinary" jobbing bander.
I've never met Mr Lippeat but having enjoyed Butlins so much over the past years and seen the work that he's put into that it's so dissapointing to see such a massive error of judgement on the part of his MD and himself.
As above , this goes beyond a Daily-Mail-esque "its PC gone mad" story. Surely , in this day and age the whole concept of "blacking up" should be well understood for the racist overtones thereof (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface for more) and I can't understand how either the MD or soloist saw this as being appropriate. What on earth crossed their minds ?
The "If I've offended anyone then I'm not bothered" quote (IF true) would be as disturbing as the behaviour in itself. I appreciate that we are all human , all make mistakes and an apology has been made. But , rightly or wrongly , this came from one of banding's most well known ( and hitherto , most respected) personalities and as such Mr Lippeat , like perhaps a John Terry or Ashley Cole finds himself under more srutiny than the "ordinary" jobbing bander.
I've never met Mr Lippeat but having enjoyed Butlins so much over the past years and seen the work that he's put into that it's so dissapointing to see such a massive error of judgement on the part of his MD and himself.
Bob Sherunkle
Active Member
Golly gosh!!
There is clearly no place in this day and age for such lazy cultural stereotyping.
What were they thinking about?
I guess it's a "northern" thing!
Bob
There is clearly no place in this day and age for such lazy cultural stereotyping.
What were they thinking about?
I guess it's a "northern" thing!
Bob
This is the crux point. Both Stan, Graham and the band will have been fully aware of the racial connotations of the golly doll. To perform such a stunt as this pre-planned and to the public shows them as, at the most positive, completely stupid. And at the worst, people with racist views.
And I'm afraid that anyone replying in defense of their activity, or quoting 'how dare the PC brigade'.. etc, really needs to take a deep long look at themselves. These dolls are caricatures of black slaves. And everyone is fully aware that they are considered offensive in today's society. You may resent this, you may like the doll itself. I had one as a child myself and loved it completely. I wasn't aware as a child of it's origins. If you have these views, discuss them in private with like minded people, don't try to pretend that they aren't offensive. They may not be to you, but we are ALL aware that they are to a lot of people. To flaunt an act like this in public is outrageous.
An even scarier part of this is that it highlights very clearly just how these very important figures in banding are complete dinosaurs. They obviously have no concept of the current society, and what makes people tick now. They are living in the 70s when this sort of thing was acceptable. And we wonder why our movement is in so much trouble! And we all know that this sort of attitude isn't just contained to messrs Lippeat and O'Conner. Racist speak, sexism and all the bad things that were acceptable 30 years ago are rife within the older portion of banding. We are being run by dinosaurs.
Ian Porthouse has my complete support in flagging an issue that we're all aware of but which is never confronted because 'that's just the way banding is'..
iancwilx
Well-Known Member
Stan is such a decent good hearted guy. I just can't understand how he became involved in this.
Whatever the outcome, it doesn't alter the fact that he is a great pillar of banding society and has contributed immensely to banding over many years. Let's not forget all the good stuff after one admittedly poorly judged action. (and verbal response).
~ Mr Wilx
Whatever the outcome, it doesn't alter the fact that he is a great pillar of banding society and has contributed immensely to banding over many years. Let's not forget all the good stuff after one admittedly poorly judged action. (and verbal response).
~ Mr Wilx
Bones
Member
I do agree, it seems a poor momentary error of judgement, like the contest, it would a shame if the only thing that was remebered was this incident.
Ianroberts
Well-Known Member
There are way too many people that cant wait to be offended now a days, a few are posting here ! Get a grip please !
GordonH
Active Member
Firstly, its a very bad pun and doesn't really make sense. Secondly, I can only be thankful it didn't happen at the Fife Charities as my girlfriend was there this week as her first ever exposure to brass band contests. She is part Burmese, part West Indian and would have been truly horrified by this. Its easy for us to say its "political correctness gone mad", but I suspect none of us have been spat at in the street as children because of the colour of our skin - as she was regularly when growing up here in Scotland.
I was quite conscious that I saw no black or asian bandsmen or women on Saturday, although I have lived in areas where this was more common. We do need to do more to attract people from ethnic minorities into brass playing and this kind of thing doesn't help that cause.
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