Mephistopheles - To DC or Not to DC

ploughboy

Active Member
Mephistopheles - To DC or Not to DC that is the question, If we were to play this aas a contest march do we have to DC?

On the (very aged) copy we have there's no DC marked but there is a pause over the double bar live just before the trio.

So to DC or not to????????

I know we've had a thread on DC's etc etc. It's just this one piece i'm interested in, Many thanks for any opinion.
 

The Cornet King

Active Member
I know when i played it at an old Whit friday March we definately did the DC.

Suppose at the end of the day it's your own choice though. Normally for contest Marches i think you play the DC, no repeats second time round.
 

Roger Thorne

Active Member
deave said:
I think at Whit Fri's is defo DC with ALL repeats.....
Having listened to the Delph Contest CD from last year bands DON'T play the repeats on the DC. Pity really cause it would give you another 3 hours drinking time.

:wink:
 

andywooler

Supporting Member
We had a similar dilemma at the Hove Contest with Punchinello- didn't do the DC and adjudicator asked me why not!
The answer may be do some research on adjudicators preferences!
We forgave him as we got the 1st prize and conductors cup anyway!
 

bassinthebathroom

Active Member
I seem to remember that there was no D. C. marked, but indeed a fermata mark before the Trio. Baffling! Musically, I feel the march itself rounds off very nicely at the printed finish (i.e. bottom of the page). A matter of preference though, of course.
 

Straightmute

Active Member
If you don't make the DC the march ends unresolved, in the wrong key.

That's less of a problem for minor key marches (where the trio usually ends in the relative major) than in major key marches where it might end in the dominant, but it is still not really a serious option.

Miss out the repeats on the DC, but not the DC itself.

D
 

andywooler

Supporting Member
Now there's another can of worms! To repeat on DC or not? Do we know what the composer intended?
As a good example, 2 different arrangements of Radetsky - one correctly marked to repeat on DC, the other as ambiguous as most marches are.
I had quite a heated discussion in one band with a bass player who insisted I was wrong to do the repeats.

Mind you, Strauss doesn't appear to be on email or tMP so we can't ask him.
 

Naomi McFadyen

New Member
Yes defo do a DC...

...Don't know if it is coincidence or not ( :p ), but in all the bands I've been in or depped for, I don't think that we've ever done repeats on the DC, which I feel is correct...

:wink:
 

Fishsta

Active Member
andywooler said:
Now there's another can of worms! To repeat on DC or not? Do we know what the composer intended?
As a good example, 2 different arrangements of Radetsky - one correctly marked to repeat on DC, the other as ambiguous as most marches are.
I had quite a heated discussion in one band with a bass player who insisted I was wrong to do the repeats.

Mind you, Strauss doesn't appear to be on email or tMP so we can't ask him.
The correct musical procedure would be to not repeat on DCs or DSs, unless otherwise marked.
 

Straightmute

Active Member
WhatSharp? said:
We played it last year, and there is no DC marked, surely if there isn't one marked you shouldn't "invent" one.
I don't think it is a question of inventing one: that's the convention in the contest march (like the Minuet and Trio!) and the fermata before the trio confirms this.

The issue with Mephi is whether or not to make the short repeats (6 or 8-bar phrases) on the DC. Convention dictates no repeats on the DC (again like the minuet) but missing them seems to leave the phrases unbalanced.

I would make the repeats!

D
 

Dave Payn

Active Member
Straightmute said:
WhatSharp? said:
We played it last year, and there is no DC marked, surely if there isn't one marked you shouldn't "invent" one.
I don't think it is a question of inventing one: that's the convention in the contest march (like the Minuet and Trio!) and the fermata before the trio confirms this.

The issue with Mephi is whether or not to make the short repeats (6 or 8-bar phrases) on the DC. Convention dictates no repeats on the DC (again like the minuet) but missing them seems to leave the phrases unbalanced.

I would make the repeats!


D
Quite. In the Cossack for instance, it definitely unbalances the phrase if you don't play the last repeat on the DC (I seem to remember YWD playing said repeat on DC when I played it with them a couple of weeks ago! ;-))
 

WhatSharp?

Active Member
Dave Payn said:
Straightmute said:
WhatSharp? said:
We played it last year, and there is no DC marked, surely if there isn't one marked you shouldn't "invent" one.
I don't think it is a question of inventing one: that's the convention in the contest march (like the Minuet and Trio!) and the fermata before the trio confirms this.

The issue with Mephi is whether or not to make the short repeats (6 or 8-bar phrases) on the DC. Convention dictates no repeats on the DC (again like the minuet) but missing them seems to leave the phrases unbalanced.

I would make the repeats!


D
Quite. In the Cossack for instance, it definitely unbalances the phrase if you don't play the last repeat on the DC (I seem to remember YWD playing said repeat on DC when I played it with them a couple of weeks ago! ;-))
Yes we do, cause it's such a short passage that it doesn't work any other way. Mind you for the Whits we may end up doing ALL the repeats on the DC (ugh, means doing the first section 4 times!)....
 

bassinthebathroom

Active Member
Straightmute said:
WhatSharp? said:
We played it last year, and there is no DC marked, surely if there isn't one marked you shouldn't "invent" one.
I don't think it is a question of inventing one: that's the convention in the contest march (like the Minuet and Trio!) and the fermata before the trio confirms this.

The issue with Mephi is whether or not to make the short repeats (6 or 8-bar phrases) on the DC. Convention dictates no repeats on the DC (again like the minuet) but missing them seems to leave the phrases unbalanced.

I would make the repeats!

D
I would agree on the point of completing an ABA structure, but I do remember several years ago we competed at Bugle contest and had to play Mephistopheles. We called the organisers and they said all bands should make no DC, but then again, that's contest organisers for you! Perhaps it's just that I'm used to it finihsing at the bottom. Good point about the phrase lengths too, so probably if you did make a DC then I would include repeats.
 

2nd man down

Moderator
Staff member
There is no DC marked in Meph tho!! There's a pause before the trio but it's not marked as a fine either and if you finish it there the whole march just sounds unfinished.
On every recording I've heard of it the band finishes at the bottom and doesn't go back to the top.
And the phrasing is all wrong in meph if the repeats aren't played so if you do a DC (against what's written on the score!!) it becomes a hellishly long march... and for the likes of Whit Friday you'll only manage 4 villages before;
A. you're band's too exhausted to continue
or
B. Everybody else's gone home cos it's Saturday morning.

All repeats, no DC!!! :?
 

bitmore

New Member
The way I see it, any band that can do a DC and all repeats and still sounds strong (and in tune) at the end has to be in with a shout. I know some adjudicators would agree. The only problem is, if you like slow marches some of them might fall asleep or die before you finish.

I never liked Mephi with a DC - it just doesn't seem to finish right, but on Whit Friday you're not going to get anywhere without it. On the other hand you could follow YBS and not get anywhere anyway!
 

markyboy

Member
Doing the DC gets my vote as well, although like Graham has said it doesn't seem to end quite right.
I remember someone from Yorkshire Co-op telling me that when they did Mephi on Whit Friday a few years ago they didn't do the DC and were heavily criticised for it in their remarks. Although that was with a guest conductor, their usual conductor does do the DC.
I also feel bands should do repeats on the second time through as well.
 

Will the Sec

Active Member
Do the DC for the reasons that Straightmute indicated.

As to the multiple repeats on the DC, I'd treat theme A and theme B as 16 bar phrases, and play them once on the DC accordingly.

If there are repeats marked after 8 bars, it sounds to me like the repeats were more "restate the phrase" than "play it again".

8 Bar repeats in this context appear to be for shorthand and ease of printing rather than for reasons of sonata or tertiary form.

(In some marches there's barrels of fun when the conductor says from the repeat for the second time and some people chip in with "We haven't got a repeat there!")

Just my threepennorth. You won't catch me marching, so maybe my opinion doesn't count!
 
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