Is it cheating to borrow players for contests? 4bars think so

Is borrowing players for contests:

  • Cheating

    Votes: 8 11.6%
  • Not cheating

    Votes: 52 75.4%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 9 13.0%

  • Total voters
    69

tubafran

Active Member
The comments with in the Postcard from Butlns on 4bars say:

"The rules stated that up to four players could be borrowed but not to play in principal positions or as a soloist unless agreed prior to the contest by the organisers. It was a welcome move that when utilised in the way in which it was meant to allowed bands to compete – some for the first time.

The problems arose however with some of the more ‘inventive’ reasons for making the requests in the first place – especially in the top section.

If you have to borrow up to four players at this level for whatever reason, then you do have to start questioning whether or not such bands should be in the Championship Section in the first place"


Which seems to contradict with the editorial - or perhaps the conflict is that there should be a differential between the rules for the Championship and other sections. Unfortunately we all had the same rules but no band breached those rules.
 
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MoominDave

Well-Known Member
I must say that whenever someone implies it, I find the idea that championship section bands are somehow living in a different world to everyone else a particularly nutty one...
 

RamasII

Member
hmmm

"The rules stated that up to four players could be borrowed but not to play in principal positions or as a soloist unless agreed prior to the contest by the organisers.

If thats what was written to the bands then I would be very mad if bands then got players in when I shuffled and borrowed tutti players...:mad: If one band asked to do it then I think it should be up to the comp to tell the other bands as its giving an advantage, esp if your own band suffled to accomodate a tutti borrwed player...I guess if you knew loads in advance that a player couldnt do it then you could do that, but if its a few days before then thats slightly different..
 

tubafran

Active Member
"The rules stated that up to four players could be borrowed but not to play in principal positions or as a soloist unless agreed prior to the contest by the organisers.

If thats what was written to the bands then I would be very mad if bands then got players in when I shuffled and borrowed tutti players...:mad: If one band asked to do it then I think it should be up to the comp to tell the other bands as its giving an advantage, esp if your own band suffled to accomodate a tutti borrwed player...I guess if you knew loads in advance that a player couldnt do it then you could do that, but if its a few days before then thats slightly different..

there was an agreed proceedure for this in the same rules
 

RamasII

Member
yes i see that..but the point i was making was, I guess bad luck on the bands that didnt try and get a dep on a solo spot...:(
 

GJG

Well-Known Member
I must say that whenever someone implies it, I find the idea that championship section bands are somehow living in a different world to everyone else a particularly nutty one...

I'm not so sure; certainly not all championship section bands, but a few, maybe - and in some cases perhaps substitute "ivory Ttower" for "different world" ... ?
 

MoominDave

Well-Known Member
What I meant is that, even at the highest level, bands still have a need for deps on a regular basis. There's no way around it - no matter how well-intentioned and madly keen everyone is, someone's life will get in the way sometimes. And the bands at the top of the pyramid make much more of a call on a player's time than bands lower down.

Some people (and 4BR are notably happy with the phrase) like to lambast bands that have had the temerity to struggle with the available resources into the lower reaches of the championship section with harsh nonsense like the quote that Fran made from them above:
4BR said:
If you have to borrow up to four players at this level for whatever reason, then you do have to start questioning whether or not such bands should be in the Championship Section in the first place

This style of rhetoric is distinctly unhelpful to almost everyone, and commits the standard confusion between wanting a system that does the job in hand and wanting a system that glorifies a chosen few. If writers such as that of the 4BR article had their way, then about 5 bands countrywide would qualify to be included in the championship section, year in year out. There are plenty of bands in the championship section who struggle for players - and this is not new either. 4BR are stirring the pot to no purpose on this one.
 

GJG

Well-Known Member
... a system that glorifies a chosen few. If writers such as that of the 4BR article had their way, then about 5 bands countrywide would qualify to be included in the championship section, year in year out.

Reading between the lines, and taking into account other comments made during coverage of the regional qualifiers in particular, I suspect this is what they really do want ...

I take your point. Personally I see nothing wrong with a system that allows for borrowed players under certain controls. and in many ways I would prefer to see it extended to the regional/national contests as well. The problem, as always, comes because there are always going to be isolated cases of the system being abused, however the solution can never be to penalise the majority of bands who have genuine need of borrowed players on occasion.
 

IanHeard

Member
4br are spot on, the 'borrowing' of players has become a racket that runs the risk (if it has`nt already in some contests) of destroying the competitive integrity of contesting as a whole.
The whole borrowing racket is an exercise in obsfuscation that most of banding is involved in, until bands are made to go with what they got, without reference to the burgeoning group of musical mercenaries hanging around Banding then we will not do what is required to turn banding around.
Just imagine if the money we spent on Deps etc. was spent on the development of youngsters instead.
It`s time we restored the integrity of the Registry, IMO.
 

GJG

Well-Known Member
4br are spot on, the 'borrowing' of players has become a racket that runs the risk (if it has`nt already in some contests) of destroying the competitive integrity of contesting as a whole.
The whole borrowing racket is an exercise in obsfuscation that most of banding is involved in, until bands are made to go with what they got, without reference to the burgeoning group of musical mercenaries hanging around Banding then we will not do what is required to turn banding around.
Just imagine if the money we spent on Deps etc. was spent on the development of youngsters instead.
It`s time we restored the integrity of the Registry, IMO.

Who said what about "living in a different world" ... ?
 

IanHeard

Member
I think Ian was joking... But I'm not at all sure...

You were right not to be sure Dave, as my post was a serious one. :)

Despite GJG`s comment, I don`t inhabit a "different world", I play for a run of the mill second section band who like most other bands are obsessed with hanging on to their current status (or bettering it) and will throw good money after bad in order to do so.
In an attempt to try and become a tad less reliant on the uncommitted players who float around bands like 'flotsam and Jetsam' in our area, we invested in the formation of a training band a few years back and now have 34 youngsters who are coming on nicely and became SWBBA Training Band Champions in November, and it`s now our intention to move them up to Youth Band level sometime this year.
The 4br Editorial was discussed at our band`s committee meeting this week and it was decided that instead of relying on 'hired guns' so much, it was time we blooded some of our home grown talent.....it felt like a important moment in our band`s recent history.
Thankyou 4br for putting it on the agenda!
 

MoominDave

Well-Known Member
Glad to hear your band has resolved an issue! And sorry for doubting you...

But it isn't my experience that many second section bands are in the habit of offering deps notable remuneration... A pint and a fiver for petrol if you've travelled to help them is more like it. I'd reckon your band is coming back to the norm rather than departing from it.
 

ploughboy

Active Member
Spot on Ian. . . Allowing for the borrowing of a few players to cover holidays and sickness etc is fine, and a great advantage.

But bands are choosing not to go to area contests because they haven't a "Full" team, and can't sign enough players to get them there. Why not turn up and play a few players short, it's no the end of the world. . maybe because we've been brought up to have a "full" band means 25 + percussion?

We've recently signed on 3 youngsters from Sellers band, and they're loving senior banding, we're loving their enthusiasm and everyone's happy, and every concert we'll go to this year will see pretty much the same well drilled team performing (with a few friends for cover of holidays etc). But if we had a 2 or 3 empty seats for the area it wouldn't stop us going!
 

Thirteen Ball

Active Member
But bands are choosing not to go to area contests because they haven't a "Full" team, and can't sign enough players to get them there. Why not turn up and play a few players short, it's no the end of the world.

Depends what you're doing. To use your example, if you have three empty chairs and they're all trombones, then that makes life a bit difficult. Likewise if you're on Pagannini and only have three basses.....

I agree with your sentiment though Gary, and at Co-op we did that a few times - came within a gnats wing of winning butlins with three on front row, two trombones and only one second cornet, and competed at bolsover on 18 players (Steve March playing bass trombone, baritone, euphonium and tenor horn in one piece!!) after a horrible virus decimated the band....

The other side of the coin is when we had to raid my old junior band (non-contesting and they all went back afterards) and even sign my mum just so we had enough people hitting things for the 24 bars in rienzi that required five percussion......
 

Tubazz

Member
But bands are choosing not to go to area contests because they haven't a "Full" team, and can't sign enough players to get them there. Why not turn up and play a few players short, it's no the end of the world. . maybe because we've been brought up to have a "full" band means 25 + percussion?

have to agree, i played with a band in the late 70's that got a 4th prize in the 2nd section finals at London with only 19 players on the stand and the following year got 2nd with 23 on the stand

 

IanHeard

Member
But it isn't my experience that many second section bands are in the habit of offering deps notable remuneration... A pint and a fiver for petrol if you've travelled to help them is more like it. I'd reckon your band is coming back to the norm rather than departing from it.

You might be surprised at what quite lowly bands are paying for the average Dep for a contest and the appropriate amount of rehearsals beforehand, and the point of the 4br Editorial is that the proliferation of borrowed players has become the norm surely?
 

Alyn James

Member
Question is, IS soprano a principle seat? etc etc etc, the rules (which i'm sure MOST people havent actually seen in black and white) seem really vague. I'm guessing (i wasnt any part of the actual enquiry) that we asked if this was OK, they agreed, no problem from our side.

Even if soprano is not to be considered a principal seat, there can be little doubt that it has a very important role in Un Vie de Matelot. I watched your sop player in the warm-up tent and heard him from backstage - mighty fine!
If you don't ask you don't get. You guys asked, Redbridge didn't - simple. Congratulations on a well-deserved win. :clap:
 
Even if soprano is not to be considered a principal seat, there can be little doubt that it has a very important role in Un Vie de Matelot. I watched your sop player in the warm-up tent and heard him from backstage - mighty fine!
If you don't ask you don't get. You guys asked, Redbridge didn't - simple. Congratulations on a well-deserved win. :clap:

Alyn thank you, really appreciative of your comments shows the true spirit of banding. Flowers have been unable to get a Sop since Paul Eddy resigned through illness. We hate the situation and Paul Richards is without doubt one of the best around. It would be interesting to see which band or individual would have turned Paul down had their band been in the same position. Your comments have realistic grounding and you are clearly both honest and magnanimous, nice one!
 

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