Is it cheating to borrow players for contests? 4bars think so

Is borrowing players for contests:

  • Cheating

    Votes: 8 11.6%
  • Not cheating

    Votes: 52 75.4%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 9 13.0%

  • Total voters
    69

Cornishwomble

Active Member
Cheating means breaking the rules
If the rules say you can borrow then you havent broken the rules hence you are not cheating

Its ok to criticise the rules but to say something that is legal is "cheating" is just wrong and maybe a case of 4barsrest falling into a habit of sensationalist journalism
 

shawneuph

Supporting Member
Certainly was when he played sop for GUS on "Les Preludes" at the Open ...

When Alan played Sop for GUS he was the bands current principal cornet (and was for several years) he swopped onto Sop just for that contest.
 

ploughboy

Active Member
I know that's why Emley don't do Brighouse march contest any more, and while I don't agree with their position, I can certainly respect that they've chosen to act on their beliefs rather than just complain on a website about it.

Very true, we spoke to David Horsefield on the matter several years ago, and therefore do not attend anymore, however that was more a statement against the term "in the spirit" which some bands just don't adhear too. I notice on the 4BR comments page John Edward has written in, talking about "the spirit" of banding, Where Sam Fisher played for Crofton as a guest (and won the best soloist prize) at a friendly 3rd and 4th section contest. . . It's just little things like that, that wind people up - admittedly the 4BR stand point of all borrowing is cheating is a little strong, although I do wonder where the encouragement is to work 24/7, 12 months a year on keeping a happy and full bandroom, when contest organisers aren't always sending out the same message!
 

GJG

Well-Known Member
When Alan played Sop for GUS he was the bands current principal cornet (and was for several years) he swopped onto Sop just for that contest.

Yes, sorry, I knew that; wasn't suggesting he was borrowed, just that he was "quality" as WoodenFlugel suggested ...
 

Chris Hicks

Member
As far as i see it, and as others said also, if there's no rules broken then it's not cheating.

To say that bringing in ringers is cheating i don't also particularly agree with, as lets be honest if a band need a player you're not going to borrow someone who is rubbish are you, and that's the same whether you're a championship section band or a 4th section band.
 

JimboFB

Active Member
Whereas GUS did not have any borrowed players, Flowers used borrowed players on principle positions. Its easy to see why a number of people have an issue with the way officials dealt with the borrowed player rule this year, it quite probably did make a real difference to the result in the Championship section.

I dont necessarily disagree with the sentiment, but perhaps the organisers should explain their reasoning behind the borrowing or not of certain players to certain bands. But then again, why should they???

And, as per a previous comment, the rules are set from the start, you cant complain after the event.

The other point is, it is the same rule for every band. If you are fortunate enough to have a full band (which i would guess there arent many around the UK), then great, if you havent for whatever reason, should you not go at all?

Hand on heart, Flowers have 1 vacancy at the mo, soprano. If anyone wants to apply, please let us know, we would be delighted to hear from you!
 
I dont necessarily disagree with the sentiment, but perhaps the organisers should explain their reasoning behind the borrowing or not of certain players to certain bands. But then again, why should they???

And, as per a previous comment, the rules are set from the start, you cant complain after the event.

The other point is, it is the same rule for every band. If you are fortunate enough to have a full band (which i would guess there arent many around the UK), then great, if you havent for whatever reason, should you not go at all?

Hand on heart, Flowers have 1 vacancy at the mo, soprano. If anyone wants to apply, please let us know, we would be delighted to hear from you!

:clap: Also might have played pretty well over the weekend and God forbid actually deserved to win??????
 
I dont necessarily disagree with the sentiment, but perhaps the organisers should explain their reasoning behind the borrowing or not of certain players to certain bands. But then again, why should they???

The simple reason they shoud have is that, other bands played as per the written issued rules, whereas Flowers, asked the question that they had a vacancy and were subsequently allowed to borrow - that should have been communicated to all bands. It wouldnt neccasarily have affected GUS but it might well have done for Redbrigdge who quite rightly could and possibly should feel a little upset.
 

Will the Sec

Active Member
Borrowing within the rules is not cheating. Whether people choose to put a value of ethics to it, that is up to them, but so far, no one has justified calling it cheating.

If the net result is that parties do not like or disagree with the end result, then their course should be clear. Approach the organisers. Voice your opinions. Ask for change. If that doesn't work, stand for committee membership. Be convincing enough to get on the committee. Voice your opinion again. Vote for change.

How many people voicing their opinions to the negative here will do that? (Though I note Ploughboy and Emley's stance.)

Incidentally, one band that I went to a contest with actually put out a player who was not the person whose card was presented at registration. Fortunately, they didn't need to be disqualified to come last that day.
 
Provided the bands borrow players within the rules applying to that particular contest then it cannot be classed as cheating when the same opportunity exists for all participating bands.
We went to Butlins with just one borrowed fourth section percussionist.
 

shawneuph

Supporting Member
Provided the bands borrow players within the rules applying to that particular contest then it cannot be classed as cheating when the same opportunity exists for all participating bands.
We went to Butlins with just one borrowed fourth section percussionist.

The issue with Butlins particularly in the Championship section refers to the original rules sent to the bands, every band that appeared to ask for an excepetion to rules had their request sanctioned so what was the point of the original rule ? If the rule was to be ignored then all bands should have been informed, as Mikey stated Redbridge stuck to the rules because they were unaware that they could borrow a Sop player.
 

Chris Hicks

Member
The issue with Butlins particularly in the Championship section refers to the original rules sent to the bands, every band that appeared to ask for an excepetion to rules had their request sanctioned so what was the point of the original rule ? If the rule was to be ignored then all bands should have been informed, as Mikey stated Redbridge stuck to the rules because they were unaware that they could borrow a Sop player.

Perhaps they should have enquired about it then, they'd have had less reason to have had any potential grievance that way.
 

Number1euph

Member
I can see everyone's point of view. Rules are there to be used. Sometimes bands bend them. As for the band I played with in the 4th Section. We had 2 borrowed players, which were from the 3rd section but not sat on corner seats. But we still had gaps in the band. We only had 3 Front Row, 1 Second Cornet, 2 Horns and 1 Euph All other seats were covered.

I would say that most bands at every contest will borrowed or registered someone for that contest. It's how banding numbers are currently. Hopefully this will change.
 

nethers

Active Member
And rather than setting up rules that prevent players and bands from competing without lots of hassle, create rules which make it easier for bands struggling with numbers to get up on stage and improve themselves.

In the D-grade in Victoria, Australia, I understand that the gates have been fully opened to basically allow them to get in helpers from wherever needed to compete at state level. I'll see if any of my friends over there can comment on how that's helping/hindering things.
 
Perhaps they should have enquired about it then, they'd have had less reason to have had any potential grievance that way.

Why on earth would they enquire - it was a new written rule sent to bands in July specifically for the purpose of telling them that borrowed players could not sit in principal seats.

IF you have had sanction from the contest for a different arrangement then that is fine - the contest management on this occasion has not subsequently made the playing field level for all competitors and for those disadvantaged directly i have some sympathy.

Congratulations on your win however, i heard you both days and wasnt surpised one bit at the result!!
 

GordonH

Active Member
It depends what you think constitutes a band. if its a long term group who play together regularly then borrowing players would be wrong, but if you think of it as collective of people you can get together for a job then borrowing would be OK. I have always thought bands should consider competing without a full band rather than borrowing people. Mind you, I think that contests have become too central to banding, andf for that reason i'm out!
 

John_D

Member
we had a couple of borrowed players at Butlins, how else can you cover unexpected illness / enforced changes to players work schedules etc.
 

GordonH

Active Member
we had a couple of borrowed players at Butlins, how else can you cover unexpected illness / enforced changes to players work schedules etc.

By having a larger pool of players in the first place?

Logically to get a group of 28 people together on any given day you need to have more than 28 possibles. Someone is always going to be unavailable for some reason.

Its a possible and logical conclusion which would also give room for those who are happy to do concerts but not contests.
 

James Yelland

Active Member
I went to a stage play the other day where the big star who played the lead role wasn't available and the part was played by his understudy. I complained that I was being cheated but didn't get anywhere. But then, the object of the production was only to entertain me and the rest of the audience. It wasn't like it was anything as important as a brass band contest or anything.
 

Primary

tMP Assistant
Here are some related products that tMP members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to tMP’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to tMP discussions about these products.

 
 
Top