Grand Sheild Poser?

Steve

Active Member
Helped out at a bands first rehearsal on this the other week on trombone and the bone parts have nothing in them at all. Its well within a half decent trombone player so those with aspirations to play at the open should have no problem. As for the other parts, I dont remember anyone having problems with the notes and it was do-able after an hours work, obviously not to winning standard though. Any band wanting to play at the open should be able to play this with ease.
 

bassinthebathroom

Active Member
Steve said:
Helped out at a bands first rehearsal on this the other week on trombone and the bone parts have nothing in them at all. Its well within a half decent trombone player so those with aspirations to play at the open should have no problem. As for the other parts, I dont remember anyone having problems with the notes and it was do-able after an hours work, obviously not to winning standard though. Any band wanting to play at the open should be able to play this with ease.

Surely not - just cos the Trombone parts are easy doesn't mean the other 22 brass players get off lightly!! :shock:
 

Darth_Tuba

Active Member
"Do-able" after an hours work? Takes that long to go through the errata sheet surely? :lol: Seriously though, apart from the trom and perc parts this piece is very hard. The sop part is an absolute nightmare, the opening is extremely hard to pull off (hence why it's completely missing from the Rimmer arrangement), and there are plenty of exposed passages where all the basics will show up (balance, tuning, dynamics, etc.). The shield is packed with good bands, but I don't think any of them will find it easy! :)
 

johnflugel

Active Member
Steve said:
Any band wanting to play at the open should be able to play this with ease.

A bold statement - I think even the winner of the open 2001 (YBS) will tell you that their fantastic winning performance was not achieved with ease, so by that rational, all of the shield bands will have their work cut out.

In terms of the full band, virtually every player is tested stamina, tuning and nerve wise. The basics in this piece are tough enough, take the first few notes for example....not so easy at pp, in unison, with a hot stage and heart pounding...not always the techincal stuff that is demanding. The soloists have big demands placed on them, particularly sop, flugel ( :shock:) and solo horn.
 

Ste69

Member
johnflugel said:
The basics in this piece are tough enough, take the first few notes for example....not so easy at pp, in unison, with a hot stage and heart pounding...not always the techincal stuff that is demanding. The soloists have big demands placed on them, particularly sop, flugel ( :shock:) and solo horn.

Agreed, it's not all about technicality but musicality will play a big part - but then again, who knows what Mr adjudicators is looking for?
 

Steve

Active Member
Darth_Tuba said:
"Do-able" after an hours work? Takes that long to go through the errata sheet surely? :lol: Seriously though, apart from the trom and perc parts this piece is very hard. The sop part is an absolute nightmare, the opening is extremely hard to pull off (hence why it's completely missing from the Rimmer arrangement), and there are plenty of exposed passages where all the basics will show up (balance, tuning, dynamics, etc.). The shield is packed with good bands, but I don't think any of them will find it easy! :)

Fully agree, please dont think my previous post was a flipant one and I replace the word ease with the words a little hard work. To put it more precisely I dont recall any players sitting there staring blankly at any of the notes with the " :shock: :? :cry: "look on their face. To be fair their sop is excellent and I appreciate there are some real nasty parts but to hope to compete with Pete Robert, Michelle Ibotson, Kerwintootle et al I think the shield players should be capable of playing this and playing it well. I think tuning, stamina etc should not be too great an issue at this level. Balance however, yes, thats down to the MD's and nerve I couldnt comment on as i dont really understand nervous players all that well (sorry :( ).
 

johnflugel

Active Member
Ste69 said:
Agreed, it's not all about technicality but musicality will play a big part - but then again, who knows what Mr adjudicators is looking for?

True, but I would think tuning and balance would be pre-requisites for any piece. Technically, there will not much out of reach for any of the bands...so it will have to come down to musicality. Don't think that Messers Scott and Newsome will have any problems sorting the top six or so out. Although the overall standards of bands is much higher this year, the piece doesn't take any prisoners....alot of bands in the Open 2001 struggled with it.
 

johnflugel

Active Member
Steve said:
I think tuning, stamina etc should not be too great an issue at this level. Balance however, yes, thats down to the MD's and nerve I couldnt comment on as i dont really understand nervous players all that well (sorry :( ).

Any band has a complacent attitude towards tuning and stamina will come a cropper, particularly in this work. 'At this level', balance is as much the players responsibility as the conductor's. As for nerves, you are very fortunate not to suffer from them :!:
 

Thirteen Ball

Active Member
johnflugel said:
As for nerves, you are very fortunate not to suffer from them :!:

Too right. I'm going into this as my second competition EVER. (First one being the areas.) You wanna know about nerves, ask me! :shock: :cry:
 

iggmeister

Member
I dont think that it follows that, just because the Troms and Perc have relatively little to do in the piece, their parts are easy.

All that waiting around can leave you complacent and then little bits and pieces that have to be played may be bodged up or simply sound uninteresting. Concentration will be the hardest task for perc and troms.

There aren't many more annoying things than having only a few things to do and then messing them up. I'd rather be kept busy.

However, Darth, I think the Rimmer version does have the opening part of the piece but it has been left out in when used in competition, (usually 2nd and 3rd section), because it is considered too difficult. As regards this arrangement there are loads of octaves and tuning needs to be spot on. Sops need to have recently rubbed Alladins lamp and used up one of their wishes prior to taking the stage!

I think it is a really hard piece and one that really stretches the back row cornets- in fact some of their parts are harder than the front row.

Just my tuppence worth.

Igg
 

Darth_Tuba

Active Member
iggmeister said:
However, Darth, I think the Rimmer version does have the opening part of the piece but it has been left out in when used in competition, (usually 2nd and 3rd section), because it is considered too difficult

I stand corrected Igg. :) It's years since I've played the Rimmer version, I just remember it not being as true to the original? Anyway, my point remains that many bands will have been discounted by the adjudicators after the opening section. Harsh, but fair I suppose! :roll:
 

Ginge

Member
missflugel said:
It was the Open piece in 2001 i think.

The back row cornet part isnt that hard (personally speaking) but I know Sop and Flugel have a lot of work to do

Jo x

It isn't? Maybe i'm just not a very good player but i think it's quite hard :!: It's quite a heavy blow!
 

iggmeister

Member
Darth_Tuba said:
It's years since I've played the Rimmer version, I just remember it not being as true to the original? Anyway, my point remains that many bands will have been discounted by the adjudicators after the opening section. Harsh, but fair I suppose! :roll:

I think the Rimmer one has higher Rimmer to Liszt ratio as compared to the Gay ( :? ) version which more Liszt, less Gay!

I think you are right that the opening will have a big impact. It will also be interesting to see whether bands put 'optional' BBb bass notes in throughout the piece and what the adjudicators will make of that :?:

Igg
 

drummerboy

Member
bassinthebathroom said:
Seriously though, a great composition, but (in my lowly opinion) poorly arranged and impractical at times, with more mistakes and errors than I'd care to list. AND it's the 2nd version too!!! Unbelievable!! Assumedly it's been proof read twice?!? WHO BY?!?! I'd like to meet him. End of rant - see those who're going at the Grand Shield weekend.

Cannot agree more here. :D
Bram Gay has obviously never tried playing the sop part
 

Darth_Tuba

Active Member
iggmeister said:
It will also be interesting to see whether bands put 'optional' BBb bass notes in throughout the piece and what the adjudicators will make of that :?:

Interesting point this, especially after all the debate we've had over use of pedals etc. Apparently when the piece was used at the Open one of the adjudicators (I think Jim Scott) when asked about the use of pedals said that no, they shouldn't be used. The winners were YBS who did use pedals in the opening sections. Fodens, who didn't use any (Bram Tovey won't allow them) came 7th. Now, obviously YBS had a great performance, and I'm not getting into wether the pedalling is "right" or "wrong". Neither am I suggesting that the performance of a bass section is in any way pivotal! However, it's interesting that even adjudicators aren't sure what they want. In a contest where bands are looking to sound like the big boys and get into the Open, it's likely many will play the "contest game" and use pedals. Would have to be very careful in this piece though.
 

Steve

Active Member
johnflugel said:
Steve said:
I think tuning, stamina etc should not be too great an issue at this level. Balance however, yes, thats down to the MD's and nerve I couldnt comment on as i dont really understand nervous players all that well (sorry :( ).

Any band has a complacent attitude towards tuning and stamina will come a cropper, particularly in this work. 'At this level', balance is as much the players responsibility as the conductor's. As for nerves, you are very fortunate not to suffer from them :!:

I fail to see how that post indicates complacency! It merely states it shouldnt be an issue, at no point does it say dont think about it cos it is bound to be fine. Agree on balance to a point, but I am sure every MD at the contest will have made changes to the balance of chords throughout this piece and not just left it to the players. Especially with it being an orchestral transcription, not something most brass banders (myself most definately included) fully understand! By the sound of their performance, YBS certainly didnt play the planets like a brass band piece and I reckon Dave King had more than a little imput rather than leave it to the players discretion!
 

iggmeister

Member
Darth_Tuba said:
In a contest where bands are looking to sound like the big boys and get into the Open, it's likely many will play the "contest game" and use pedals.

Are pedals being used to 'beef up' the sound of the band or is it because the BBb bass parts are just stupidly high at times? You could say, "BBb basses, leave that bit out" but then you lose the sound of 2 players. Perhaps it is the lesser of 2 evils as opposed to deliberately trying to beef up the sound of the band.

It is just one of those problems with transcriptions. I can understand objection to 'additional' pedals in pieces written specifically for band. It may be that Mr Gay wanted to stay as close to the orchestral version as possible and, in order to do so, had to write high BBb bass parts.

Igg
 

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