English Nationals 2013

IanHeard

Member
People tackle the problems they feel that they can tackle. The organisational stand-off at high level that prevents the kind of federation you desire is so currently intractable that it seems better to most to symptom manage for now until a more tractable situation evolves in the hands of those who are on the inside.
I know I probably have a rather unhealthy obsession with this issue Dave, but where you see the pragmatic managing of symptoms, I see a general and widespread ignorance of the core problem itself.
 

MoominDave

Well-Known Member
There's overlap between the two attitudes, definitely. It's hard to say what is pragmatism and what is cosy short-sightedness when the two attitudes result in identical actions.
 

IanHeard

Member
There's overlap between the two attitudes, definitely. It's hard to say what is pragmatism and what is cosy short-sightedness when the two attitudes result in identical actions.
Good point, whilst ignorance of the problems are forgivable and even understandable amongst the rank and file of ordinary bands people, the most disappointing aspect for me is the lack of appreciation of the issues from people who could be described as the 'movers and shakers' in our movement. As an example I recall the Yorkshire regional secretary taking the time to write to the banding press, questioning the need for the English National and blaming the BFBB for forcing the 'her bands' to compete in an unwanted and unnecessary contest, now that might have been seen as a welcome intervention by certain bands under her umbrella and added to her kudos locally, but did it show a true appreciation of real issues involved in choosing an English rep. for the European, I think not.
 

ben16

Member
I know I probably have a rather unhealthy obsession with this issue Dave
unexpected self awareness there. I suppose when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. To everyone else, the "core problem" you speak of is irrelevant at best.
 

IanHeard

Member
unexpected self awareness there. I suppose when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. To everyone else, the "core problem" you speak of is irrelevant at best.
After years of wobbling on about this issue on here, I've long accepted that my view is a minority one, however not for me the lack of self confidence or is it arrogance, that I'd ever feel the need to represent my view as being one shared by "everyone else".
 

tkhbss

Member
I tend to be in agreement with a lot of the above. Black Dyke have not been on top form of late (no offence guys), but they will still represent England by virtue of winning this contest. If memory serves me correctly, the National Championships used to be the qualifier for the Europeans. Forgive me if I am wrong, but surely this is the most fair system? It remains the only major contest which any band can enter and any band can win if they are good enough. There is no invitation system. And, on the occasions where a Scottish or Welsh band have won, the highest placed English band will be the European representative. I do think that the organizers of the English Nationals have the best of intentions, but this is starting to look like a joke contest.
Just checked: 2012: Won Area, English Nationals, European, 2nd in Open; 2013, 3rd in Europe. Wow they are really struggling.
 

StellaJohnson

Active Member
Just checked: 2012: Won Area, English Nationals, European, 2nd in Open; 2013, 3rd in Europe. Wow they are really struggling.
I've just checked, you are a bit selective which contests you have chosen. Try the last 3 contest result , 9th national, 6th Yorkshire area, 3rd European. Again no disrespect to Black Dyke but they are not the form band at the moment
 

simonium

Member
With the greatest of respect to all participants, all of whom play at a much higher standard than I do, is anyone not involved expecting anything other than a Black Dyke victory? I'd love to see a shock but I'm pretty certain they'll be "on one".
 

Anno Draconis

Well-Known Member
I've just checked, you are a bit selective which contests you have chosen. Try the last 3 contest result , 9th national, 6th Yorkshire area, 3rd European. Again no disrespect to Black Dyke but they are not the form band at the moment
If they were competing against Grimethorpe, Fodens, Carlton Main, Fodens, Fairey, Leyland, Flowers and Desford you might have a point, but they're not. On paper they are without doubt the form band in that particular field.

However: Two-legged contests can be weird, especially if the adjudicators don't like, or get what you're trying to do with, the own choice piece. In theory they make a shock upset harder, because the "weaker" bands" have to outplay the "stronger" bands twice in a row. But bands that don't play a "known" piece, like "Pursuing Horizons" due to be one of the own choice selections at the weekend, or they play a classic like "Contest Music" (also on the agenda) but not so well, could come a cropper. If Paddy F was still around I'd be tempted to have a cheeky flutter on Hepworth who are likely to be bang tidy with Mr Fowles in charge (as they were at Bradford when they beat BD by a place), or GUS looking to give John Berryman a decent final season send off.
 
If they were competing against Grimethorpe, Fodens, Carlton Main, Fodens, Fairey, Leyland, Flowers and Desford you might have a point, but they're not. On paper they are without doubt the form band in that particular field.

However: Two-legged contests can be weird, especially if the adjudicators don't like, or get what you're trying to do with, the own choice piece. In theory they make a shock upset harder, because the "weaker" bands" have to outplay the "stronger" bands twice in a row. But bands that don't play a "known" piece, like "Pursuing Horizons" due to be one of the own choice selections at the weekend, or they play a classic like "Contest Music" (also on the agenda) but not so well, could come a cropper. If Paddy F was still around I'd be tempted to have a cheeky flutter on Hepworth who are likely to be bang tidy with Mr Fowles in charge (as they were at Bradford when they beat BD by a place), or GUS looking to give John Berryman a decent final season send off.
Actually they only have to outplay the form band once, and that is on the set test as it carries the weight in the event of a tie.
 

MoominDave

Well-Known Member
I suppose his point is that they will at least subconsciously be expecting to hear a single standout performance, and might find a situation where this doesn't occur disconcerting at some level.

Sincerely doubt whether it's an important thing to worry about.
 

ben16

Member
I've yet to go to a contest with a single prize where the adjudicator didn't try to claim that one band really stood out.
 
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