Do you think the move to a Kapitol Owned registry is Good, Bad or . . . . .

[JTKBrass]

So... as an Executive member of the SBBA you have stated you have not been kept up to date on this very serious progressing situation ?

Hi Jon. As far as i'm aware the disciplinary process was followed and your appeal was discussed a year ago (almost to the day) and reported in section 3 of this minute, which is available in the public domain. For me that was the end of the issue, and there's nothing else to keep up to date on. If it wasn't the end of the issue for you then i'm sorry to hear that.

I replied to someone with similar views about banding in Wales where the official line presented did not reflect the actual situation at grass roots.
I feel the same way about Scotland.
I am happily a member of more than one Brass Band in Scotland and yes, our secretaries speak on behalf of us.

I'm sure there are a lot of individuals who feel aggrieved about certain 'close to home' issues and think the system is against them for various reasons, but both the national bodies in Scotland and Wales are at various stages in their development and for every discontented individual i'm sure there are many hundreds of satisfied customers because of the work they are both doing. Having travelled to Wales on behalf of SBBA (my expenses were paid by Tredegar Band by the way) and met Iestyn Davies while I was there, I was encouraged by his enthusiasm for a national body for Wales, and I think Welsh banding is in safe hands, in much the same way as George Burt has pushed Scottish banding forward to a level that we couldn't have imagined even a few years ago.

I am glad the SBBA entertain the possability of discussion about different registration systems.
It would be good to know what the alternative could be, and if it would allow Scottish Banding more freedom.

As I said before, SBBA are a fully democratic body and if someone suggests an alternative system it would be discussed and voted on. The difference between that and this debate (and i'm conscious we're keeping people off topic here) is that the new Kapitol system is being applied without any debate (simply because England has no equivalent of SBBA) and according to recent polls, up to as much as 90% of bands being against the new system.

If 90% of bands in Scotland didn't want something to happen, then it wouldn't happen.

 

[its_jon]

Hi Jon, nice to speak to you again. As you know, all contesting bands in Scotland have to be members of SBBA. Those member bands are able to vote at the AGM on various issues. I'm sure someone could propose an alternative owner for the Scottish Registry (and therefore an alternative Registrar)

Thats good to know... I would like to see this on the agenda for next year and will contact secretaries of bands I am involved with.
Meanwhile what can Kapitol offer Scotland... ?

The SBBA subs aren't directly connected to contesting though. The SBBA subs assist with the administration of SBBA, and all the associated support and benefits member bands receive from their membership. The entry fee to various contests is a seperate payment.
I would welcome the debate, to see what Kapitol could offer us in contrast to the SBBA monopoly we have at the moment.

But you have to first pay a membership to SBBA before you make an additional payment to contest...double whammy. Especially if your band is recieving no visable benefit from bieng part of SBBA.

"For example, recent SBBA regional contests have been held inside run down shopping centres. "

When you say 'inside', i'm sure you mean 'near'? I can't recall any contest, regional or otherwise, being held inside shopping centres.

Oh... but I do. and no doubt others will also recall.
Not that thats a major thing... just not such a nice location, but obviously costs come into play and at least we got to contest.

It works for energy and telephone company's ... Open and democratic market.
And SBBA works very well in Scotland, in an equally open and democratic way.
SBBA receives funding from Creative Scotland through various grants. Part of the application to Creative Scotland will be for money through the Youth Music Initiative to pay for the fantastic work the Development Manager (Andrew Duncan) does. No money from Scottish bands is paid to Andrew Duncan.

Another amount of funding might be for infrastructure support, for example to assist with the work SBBA does through the various Area Associations (for example, the Fife Charities Band Association, where i'm the Secretary) or paying miscellaneous travelling expenses to SBBA executive members who give up their time to attend the various SBBA meetings. I myself travel from Fife to various SBBA meetings, and receive approximately £8 in expenses for attending a meeting.

The same grants through Creative Scotland YMI (youth music initiative) can be applied for directly by Brass Bands or any other musical organization for the employment of Development Workers to train youth. Prominent though, is that the credit goes to the Scottish Government as the Development Worker system is suggested, initiated and finantially provided for outside SBBA. Any band could apply directly to the fund ... but a vast majority of bands I have encountered have not been made aware of its existence. Its not an exclusive SBBA concept and you dont need to be a SBBA member band to obtain your own youth development worker. Credit where credit is due.

The increase in advertising on the SBBA website (and at SBBA run events) is down to the hard work John has put in over the past few months securing additional income to SBBA to cover that match funding. John is also project manager for the 2014 European Championships, which also needs vast amounts of financing to be successful.
The SBBA 'model' is based on growth, and Scotland can offer no more cash.
SBBA isn't a grant giving body. SBBA isn't based growth, but is there to facilitate it, something which it has done very successfully under George Burt's leadership.
SBBA have decided to attempt to influence the way the Kapitol Promotions Registry will operate.
SBBA Executive members were also prominent on the self appointed committee driving for restructuring of banding, (mainly in England) which failed.

From what I can tell, SBBA is turning into a cloaked commercial enterprise.
I expressed my fears about this 2 year ago and we all know how SBBA reacted back then.
I see little difference between Kapitol and SBBA (at grass roots)

"SBBA have decided to attempt to influence the way the Kapitol Promotions Registry will operate".

How are SBBA attempting to influence the way the Kapitol Promotions Registry will operate ?

 

[its_jon]

Hi Jon. As far as i'm aware the disciplinary process was followed and your appeal was discussed a year ago (almost to the day) and reported in section 3 of this minute, which is available in the public domain. For me that was the end of the issue, and there's nothing else to keep up to date on. If it wasn't the end of the issue for you then i'm sorry to hear that.

Since you bring up section 3 of this minute, (which I would advise everyone to take a look at)

The SBBA solicitor has idicated that Tom Allens wife had nothing to do with this case and was bemused when asked the very simplest of questions about her involvement.

We take the insinuation that Tom Allens wife was in some way pestered very seriously in this matter as an issue of charicter assasination. as in Tom Allens absence she simply took a message.

Tom was asked if he was aware he had handled/forwaded a fabricated document in the SBBA case against me.

SBBA initiated a solictor to respond to this.. That Solicitor did not deny that the document in question was fabricated (after been presented with undeniable proof)

You should be aware of this as an Executive member of SBBA

hmm.. curious you were not made aware by the SBBA Secretary.

I'm sure there are a lot of individuals who feel aggrieved about certain 'close to home' issues

Maybe some of them have good reasons to be aggrieved.

As I said before, SBBA are a fully democratic body and if someone suggests an alternative system it would be discussed and voted on. The difference between that and this debate (and i'm conscious we're keeping people off topic here) is that the new Kapitol system is being applied without any debate (simply because England has no equivalent of SBBA) and according to recent polls, up to as much as 90% of bands being against the new system.

If 90% of bands in Scotland didn't want something to happen, then it wouldn't happen.

SBBA Executive were one of the first to welcome the new Kapitol system almost before any debate started.
And you now suggest that a vast majority of bands do not welcome it ?

Sot ?.... Do SBBA welcome the Kapitol Registry ... or not ?

 

[JTKBrass]

Thats good to know... I would like to see this on the agenda for next year and will contact secretaries of bands I am involved with.

But you have to first pay a membership to SBBA before you make an additional payment to contest...double whammy. Especially if your band is recieving no visable benefit from bieng part of SBBA.

Oh... but I do. and no doubt others will also recall.
Not that thats a major thing... just not such a nice location, but obviously costs come into play and at least we got to contest.

Hi Jon. You're veering off topic with this. If you want an explanation of how the democratic process works in an organisation like SBBA then drop me a PM. Always happy to help when asked.

 

[its_jon]

Hi Jon. You're veering off topic with this.

Back on Topic

"SBBA have decided to attempt to influence the way the Kapitol Promotions Registry will operate".

1) How have SBBA decided to attempt to influence the way the Kapitol Promotions Registry will operate


2) Do SBBA welcome the Kapitol Registry ... or not ?

 

[johnmartin]

I was going to stay away from this thread but I cannot sit back and see it being hijacked by its_jon with his personal vendetta against SBBA. Suffice to say that the SBBA I know are very different from the picture painted by its_jon. If I had any gripe with the way things were run in Scotland then I wouldn't be slow in doing something about it. I will not be lured into a debate on this subject so please feel free to have the last word.

As for Kapitol and the English registry, this whole situation is borne out of the inability of English bands to organise a representative national body with control over its own contest rules and its own player registry. BBE was heading in the right direction but unfortunately still had many hurdles to overcome to claim a mandate from English bands. I think that boat has sailed and it remains to be seen whether English banding can organise itself and claim back control of its own destiny. England is the crucible of brass banding, home of the top brass bands in the world. Surely there are some very capable people amongst band administrators who can step up and take control of this situation. I have no doubt such people exist. I wonder if the will to act exists? Kapitol, for all that people decry it as being undemocratic and a private company, is in the driving seat because they saw an opportunity and took it. I am sure that they will do a very good job, but the longer the situation is allowed to continue unchallenged the more it will become the accepted norm.

 

[tubafran]

As I said - - How do you know?

But isn't that the point a number of people have passed comment on? It's a bit of like the Schrodinger's cat scenario - it could cost the same or it could cost more? Until we open the box we don't know. But we could speculate on known information and comments already issued.

1) In the first year BBP are not charging for band membership = no income, or small amount for transfers etc
2) They are offering an identical system to the BBBR but they have to undertake this in a limited period and take on board 495 new band's record
3) This is a limited company and will have the same cost constraints as any business, insurance, premises, accounting etc
4) Let's speculate it costs them £80 per band (the current annual charge for registration) - at the end of their first trading year they will have incurred a loss of £80 per band plus set up costs per band 40 cards and record say £3 per card. So I'm speculating they will have sent £200 a band by end year one
5) How will this company recover that loss when sending out their registration fees for year 2?

Perhaps that's how people "know" it will cost more - or do you know different?

 

[JTKBrass]

Back on Topic

"SBBA have decided to attempt to influence the way the Kapitol Promotions Registry will operate".

1) How have SBBA decided to attempt to influence the way the Kapitol Promotions Registry will operate

From the press release - "SBBA implemented a player-based system two years ago, and would be pleased to share our experience of that"

So basically, if Kapitol ask SBBA how we do it, we'll tell them, and they might adopt a similar system. If BBBR ask SBBA how we do it, we'll tell them, and they might adopt a similar system.

SBBA are looking to make further improvements to the registration system we use, and even last week at the AGM were discussing, as an example, alterations to the guesting rules.

2) Do SBBA welcome the Kapitol Registry ... or not ?

From the press release - "SBBA will be supportive of any initiative that encourages the development of brass bands and we view the current situation as one which, with the right approach, could lead to a great opportunity to achieve far-reaching potential benefits for brass bands throughout the UK, especially if democratic control by bands can be introduced, and if a forward-looking registry system can be developed.

We welcome the fact that Kapitol recognises within its proposals the independence of Scotland and Wales, and hope that the long-term outcome of the current debate will see a strengthening of the six English regions and the general structure of the brass band fraternity in England."

It's all there in the press release.

 

[its_jon]

being hijacked by its_jon with his personal vendetta against SBBA.

SBBA Executive are in deep water over their own actions.
Thats about 5 people...
NOT the whole of Scottish Banding of which I am proud to be part of.
All my words are substantiated unlike many of the SBBA Executive insinuations against me

I have to also point out a SBBA Executive member initiated the personal discussion on this thread for which I am simply replying to with facts of the case he appears to be unaware of.[/QUOTE]

As for Kapitol and the English registry, this whole situation is borne out of the inability of English bands to organise a representative national body with control over its own contest rules and its own player registry. BBE was heading in the right direction but unfortunately still had many hurdles to overcome to claim a mandate from English bands. I think that boat has sailed and it remains to be seen whether English banding can organise itself and claim back control of its own destiny. England is the crucible of brass banding, home of the top brass bands in the world. Surely there are some very capable people amongst band administrators who can step up and take control of this situation. I have no doubt such people exist. I wonder if the will to act exists? Kapitol, for all that people decry it as being undemocratic and a private company, is in the driving seat because they saw an opportunity and took it. I am sure that they will do a very good job, but the longer the situation is allowed to continue unchallenged the more it will become the accepted norm.

So.... when could the Kapitol registry system be democratically challenged ?

 

[its_jon]

From the press release - "SBBA will be supportive of any initiative that encourages the development of brass bands and we view the current situation as one which, with the right approach, could lead to a great opportunity to achieve far-reaching potential benefits for brass bands throughout the UK, especially if democratic control by bands can be introduced, and if a forward-looking registry system can be developed.

We welcome the fact that Kapitol recognises within its proposals the independence of Scotland and Wales, and hope that the long-term outcome of the current debate will see a strengthening of the six English regions and the general structure of the brass band fraternity in England."

It's all there in the press release.

Yes....

Sounds like SBBA support Kapitol

 

[MoominDave]

It sounds like SBBA will work with anyone South of the border who it makes sense to work with.

 

[JTKBrass]

I have to also point out a SBBA Executive member initiated the personal discussion on this thread for which I am simply replying to with facts of the case he appears to be unaware of.

[/QUOTE]

Hi Jon. Yes i'm aware of that information, but chose not to comment on them because as far as i'm concerned, now that the disciplinary process and appeals process are exhausted, they're not really relevant to my role on the SBBA Executive. If they become relevant in the future and I need to consider them from a SBBA point of view, then I will.

 

[its_jon]

It sounds like SBBA will work with anyone South of the border who it makes sense to work with.

I really cant see any problems with Kapitol running the registry myself.

They could run all contesting nationwide, to let everyone else simply get on with the music.

Why put pressure on Kapitol and the way they might run the English registry. Just let them get on with it.
£5 says it will be a success

 

[MoominDave]

Defining "success" is basically what this thread (with the exception of your diversion of the last few pages) has been about. Will it be a success if it is long term a good plan but short term a disaster? How about if it's still a short term disaster but long term is about as good as leaving things be would have been?

 

[its_jon]

Hi Jon. Yes i'm aware of that information, but chose not to comment on them because as far as i'm concerned, now that the disciplinary process and appeals process are exhausted, they're not really relevant to my role on the SBBA Executive. If they become relevant in the future and I need to consider them from a SBBA point of view, then I will.

You chose not to comment, instead implying that the whole process was done and dusted leading others to assume I was in some way attacking the SBBA.

The process is only just about to start as far as I am concearned.
The hypocracy appears never ending.

 

[its_jon]

Defining "success" is basically what this thread (with the exception of your diversion of the last few pages) has been about. Will it be a success if it is long term a good plan but short term a disaster? How about if it's still a short term disaster but long term is about as good as leaving things be would have been?

Anything which makes the creation of music easier is a good thing.

To keep the whole contesting side of banding openly commercial is in my opinion a good thing.
That way our grant applications and general day to day banding can be focused on the music.

Contesting (in the eyes of those outside brass banding) is a very alien concept.

It would be better for bands to have the freedom to 'buy into' contesting without having a contesting system central to their existence.

One band in my area found it difficult to sack a useless conductor who was doing the job for free.
Had he been on a payrole it would have been much easyer.

Same with an openly commercial system of contesting.
If they fail to deliver, its easier to remove them.
They HAVE to strive for a better service.

 

[its_jon]

Defining "success" is basically what this thread (with the exception of your diversion of the last few pages) has been about. Will it be a success if it is long term a good plan but short term a disaster? How about if it's still a short term disaster but long term is about as good as leaving things be would have been?

Anything which makes the creation of music easier is a good thing.

To keep the whole contesting side of banding openly commercial is in my opinion a good thing.
That way our grant applications and general day to day banding can be focused on the music.

Contesting (in the eyes of those outside brass banding) is a very alien concept.

It would be better for bands to have the freedom to 'buy into' contesting without having a contesting system central to their existence.

One band in my area found it difficult to sack a useless conductor who was doing the job for free.
Had he been on a payrole it would have been much easyer.

Same with an openly commercial system of contesting.
If they fail to deliver, its easier to remove them.
They HAVE to strive for a better service.

 

[JTKBrass]

You chose not to comment, instead implying that the whole process was done and dusted leading others to assume I was in some way attacking the SBBA.

The process is only just about to start as far as I am concearned.
The hypocracy appears never ending.

Hi Jon. Firstly, my decision not to comment was based on what you said being irrelevant. SBBA went through a process of disciplinary and appeal, which ended a year ago with a final decision being made and upheld. You've said that process is ongoing, and also said that it's about to start, so it does sound like you're confused over the matter. I'm sure you do lots of worthwhile work with the bands you're connected to, and I would advise you to concentrate your efforts there. If those bands need help from SBBA to develop further, then that's what they pay their annual fees for. We'll be more than happy to come and help you and your bands.

Secondly, while I do admit to 'leading others' in both my professional and banding life, in this case I didn't make anyone assume you were attacking SBBA. You hijacked this thread and tried to make a personal attack on SBBA once more. I can understand you're now frustrated that every argument you made has been dashed on the sharp rocks of fact, but that's generally what happens when I step in.

If you want to continue this discussion, i'd be happy to give you some time in Perth in a few weeks, but for now this thread should return to the Kapitol question.

 

[its_jon]

Hi Jon. Firstly, my decision not to comment was based on what you said being irrelevant. SBBA went through a process of disciplinary and appeal, which ended a year ago with a final decision being made and upheld. You've said that process is ongoing, and also said that it's about to start, so it does sound like you're confused over the matter. I'm sure you do lots of worthwhile work with the bands you're connected to, and I would advise you to concentrate your efforts there. If those bands need help from SBBA to develop further, then that's what they pay their annual fees for. We'll be more than happy to come and help you and your bands.

Secondly, while I do admit to 'leading others' in both my professional and banding life, in this case I didn't make anyone assume you were attacking SBBA. You hijacked this thread and tried to make a personal attack on SBBA once more. I can understand you're now frustrated that every argument you made has been dashed on the sharp rocks of fact, but that's generally what happens when I step in.

If you want to continue this discussion, i'd be happy to give you some time in Perth in a few weeks, but for now this thread should return to the Kapitol question.

Hi John,

You are aware (as you have eventually submitted) that the SBBA Executive have presented a fabricated document in the case against me.
The process dealing with this and many other matters surrounding this case is as you are very aware by your admission ..current.
You can not talk about many aspects of the case for legal reasons.

I hope this clears up the confusion you express.

No attack has been made on the SBBA, certainly not a personal attack of any type. (you know this)
I am simply correcting you as you present more hypocrytical statements.
You have presented a large paragraph of text above containing nothing about Kapitol, then you accuse me of hyjacking the thread, steering it away from topic.
The facts (when you look back over the thread) I have continuously attempted to stick to the Kapitol discussion, inbetween correcting you.

"argument you made has been dashed on the sharp rocks of fact, but that's generally what happens when I step in."

What have you stepped in ?

I am sure you would like the issue to go away..
Up to now it has been delt with behind the scenes legally, but when you initiated refference to it publically, of course I had to respond.
You are aware there are many aspects of this case you are not awarded freedom to speak about for legal reasons. I have also tempered my responces likewise.

I don't feel frustration or anger.... Im WAY past that.

back to Kapitol.... and how we can influence them

 

[WoodenFlugel]

Its_jon / JTKBrass et al. Can I remind you that this thread is about the move to a Kapitol based registry and not what has / could have / might have happened between idividuals North of the Border. Feel free to continue this discussion via PM, or any other means but this thread. Any more posts like this will be removed on sight without explaination.

Its_jon - please take notice of this - it is especially disappointing as we have already warned you on more than one occasion about hijacking threads to present your own agenda. It seems you have forgotten...