Democrats to flee the country?

Tom-King

Well-Known Member
Personally I’m not hoping for his nomination or re-election but IMHO Tom’s assessment of the situation is spot-on.
Yep... It's a sorry state of affairs, but when we've put up Johnson Vs Corbyn we can hardly judge the yanks system for giving them two awful options.

As bad as Trump is, the democrats seem to be making the same mistake Labour has been - the far left on twitter represents a tiny but noisy minority, not an election winning volume of voters.
 

Jack E

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you have against Donald Trump; as far as I can see, regardless what the rest of the world thinks of him, he has done a great deal of good for average Americans - and he was, after all, elected to put their interests first.
The numbers of people in employment have risen, unemployment is down, the numbers of people on food stamps are down, American manufacturers who had previously off-shored their production facilities are moving their plants back to the US, thanks to the significant drop in the costs of both energy and chemical feedstock, thanks to fracked gas.
As for the constant accusations against him; since he was sworn in, his administration has achieved the following results:
1. unemployment amongst black Americans is at its lowest ever level;
2. the numbers of black business start-ups have increased by over 400%;
3. average wages for black Americans have significantly risen;
4. he has pardoned a significant number of black Americans who were wrongfully convicted, and pushed through significant prison reforms;
Yet the Democrats call him a racist!
But I've said my piece, and I'll leave it at that.
 

2nd tenor

Well-Known Member
Is Trump good or is Trump bad? He’s not my ‘cuppa of tea’ and I’d have preferred Hilary, but that’s just my preference. The one thing I’d hate is for friends here to fall out over politics.

I’m a centre ground type of chap myself and annoyed with polarised politics that pleases 51% of the voters and disregards the rest. I’m not expecting PR anytime soon but note that if the Scottish MP’s had been elected by PR then the SNP would have a very much reduced presence in Westminster. As for the recent U.K. election result I voted Tory but think that a more politically central Labour Party with a more credible leader could have snatched it from Boris. Will the US Democrats wake up and take the centre ground? I doubt that they will.
 
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Tom-King

Well-Known Member
think that a more politically central Labour Party with a more credible leader could have snatched it from Boris. Will the US Democrats wake up and take the centre ground? I doubt that they will.
Setting aside PR (not in favour at all).

Yes, a credible and sane labour party would've fared far, far better.

And the Dems aren't looking at all interested in the center right now... When it comes to winning elections it's all about voter coalitions and you don't create those by moving to extremities and handing over most of the swing voters.
 

jobriant

Active Member
The USA HAS NO FAR LEFT. Everything that the more liberal Democratic Candidates propose is, in every other developed country, considered middle-of-the-road, everyday common-sense, standard operating procedure. There is ONLY ONE developed country without some sort of national health care for all, for example, and that is the USA.
 

Jack E

Well-Known Member
Jim - I'd hardly call a policy of wide-open borders and sanctuary cities common sense, but that's my personal view. The image I posted at the top was just meant as a light-hearted joke at those (on both sides of the Pond) who say "If such and such gets elected, I'm leaving the country!"

I shan't post anything with even a hint of my political views on here again.
 
"I shan't post anything with even a hint of my political views on here again."

Say it ain't so, Jack E !

I support:

- The "racist" whose policies have done more for minorities than arguably any previous president has and who, on a personal level, both in the eye of the public and out of the eye of the public helped individuals who are considered by those to whom race matters as members of minority classes.

- The "sexist" who has hired and placed into positions of authority within his organization more women than most business leaders have done and who has placed women in positions of power within his own presidential administration.

- The "homophobe" who insists that LBGTQWHATEVERS be treated with equality, not persecution, worldwide.

- The "Nazi" whose many business associates have been Jewish and whose daughter, son-in-law, and grandchildren are Jewish, all of whom he is extremely proud. This "Nazi" is the president who, unlike every previous president since the creation of the State of Israel, actually fulfilled their promise to move the United States Embassy from Tel Aviv to the nation's capital, Jerusalem.

BTW - I find the numbers in the recent vote to support Boris Johnson to be interesting, at the very least.
 
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2nd tenor

Well-Known Member
I shan't post anything with even a hint of my political views on here again.
Your experience might be different to mine but in the last year or so I’ve found social media sites who’s members are very anti any point of view but their own. IMHO that’s not a healthy situation, but polarised politics and he who shouts loudest seem to be becoming the norm. Personally I’d rather have a discussion every time and be persuaded of the errors in my logic, persuade others of the errors in their logic or simply agree to differ.

As to any discussion of politics on tmp well my recollection is of it all ending unhappily and people, who would otherwise be friends, falling out. Of course it doesn’t need to be that way at all ... As for your original post I didn’t find it particularly political and saw the (intended by you) lighter side of it. Personally Trump wouldn’t be my preferred candidate but equally I don’t think that Bernie Saunders is right for the USA either, I liked Obama but to an extent what he achieved beyond stability (important in its own right) was limited - just my recollection. Others to note please that those are just my personal views and I don’t share them for furthering any particular view or party.

My best wishes to you in the New Year Jack. I look forward to and hope to read your many entertaining and informative comments over 2020 and long beyond.
 
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Jack E

Well-Known Member
Thank you, 2nd Tenor - and a very Happy New Year to you and your family :)

With best regards,
Jack
 

Anno Draconis

Well-Known Member
I read recently (can't remember where) that major players in the DNC were watching our recent election very closely and took some lessons from Labour's shellacking in terms of abandoning (or not) the centre ground. Although the 'centre ground' in US politics, as jobriant points out, is not where it is in the UK. Sanders' "most extreme left wing" policies would seem vaguely Blairite to most UK voters, I suspect.
 
"Personally I’d rather have a discussion every time and be persuaded of the errors in my logic, persuade others of the errors in their logic or simply agree to differ."

This used to be possible, and it certainly would be my preference, too, but, as you say, many people have succumbed to polarization, perhaps out of lazy ignorance and fragile egos.
 

Tom-King

Well-Known Member
This used to be possible, and it certainly would be my preference, too, but, as you say, many people have succumbed to polarization, perhaps out of lazy ignorance and fragile egos.
It's also a symptom of our social media era...

Even if you have the wherewithal to access a variety of sources/viewpoints, you'll still be consistently bombarded by biased information that conforms to the profile that's been built up on you...
 
It's also a symptom of our social media era...

Even if you have the wherewithal to access a variety of sources/viewpoints, you'll still be consistently bombarded by biased information that conforms to the profile that's been built up on you...
I'm old enough to have been taught how to think. It's sad and also disturbing that today's youth seem to be told what to think, but not given the tools to test an idea's validity.
 

2nd tenor

Well-Known Member
I'm old enough to have been taught how to think. It's sad and also disturbing that today's youth seem to be told what to think, but not given the tools to test an idea's validity.
Perhaps it’s just my particular experience but the most ridged, dogmatic and often outright aggressive people that I come across on-line are older people. To an extent that’s been a surprise to me that folk who are more than old enough to know better do, in fact, behave badly towards others. Having a passion for your ideas and commitment to them is no bad thing but, IMHO, to (knowingly) behave badly towards others is next to inexcusable.

With regard to youth and misguided thought the situation has ever been thus. When I talk to youngsters I find some young adults who really do think and run intellectual rings around their older colleagues, and some others who might manage to do similar in time - so a wide spread of thought from independent to herd mentality. Perhaps my (friends and family) experience here in the U.K. isn’t typical but home and educational life here has facilitated and encouraged questioning thought and it’s just been down to the abilities and nature of the individual as to whether or not to continue with group think or not.
 
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Perhaps it’s just my particular experience but the most ridged, dogmatic and often outright aggressive people that I come across on-line are older people. To an extent that’s been a surprise to me that folk who are more than old enough to know better do, in fact, behave badly towards others. Having a passion for your ideas and commitment to them is no bad thing but, IMHO, to (knowingly) behave badly towards others is next to inexcusable.

With regard to youth and misguided thought the situation has ever been thus. When I talk to youngsters I find some young adults who really do think and run intellectual rings around their older colleagues, and some others who might manage to do similar in time - so a wide spread of thought from independent to herd mentality. Perhaps my (friends and family) experience here in the U.K. isn’t typical but home and educational life here has facilitated and encouraged questioning thought and it’s just been down to the abilities and nature of the individual as to whether or not to continue with group think or not.
I bless the memory of my parents for ensuring and encouraging me to interact with adults from a very early age, and as a consequence, I have always had friends in all age groups. I share your frustration with those old enough to know better than to treat people badly, but I find that it's an individual trait more than a collective one; there are Alpha Hotels in every age group.

Most, but not all, of my Millennial friends do know how to think, how to evaluate concepts, and absolutely loathe those who accept groupthink. They hate that discussion is impossible with their contemporaries whose only and predictable response to any alternate idea is met not with debate, but with intransigent hostility. The thinkers point to the indoctrination by teachers of ideas that prove to be and have proven to be false and the encouragement of the exercise of an attitude of entitlement as the cause of this. They tell me that there are massive amounts of information deliberately excluded from study, and therefore unknown to students who do not seek more information elsewhere. This is a serious problem, as societal evolution is being forced in a direction that can only be harmful to humankind, due to its false bases, premises, and conclusions.
 
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I'm not sure what you have against Donald Trump; as far as I can see, regardless what the rest of the world thinks of him, he has done a great deal of good for average Americans - and he was, after all, elected to put their interests first.
The numbers of people in employment have risen, unemployment is down, the numbers of people on food stamps are down, American manufacturers who had previously off-shored their production facilities are moving their plants back to the US, thanks to the significant drop in the costs of both energy and chemical feedstock, thanks to fracked gas.
As for the constant accusations against him; since he was sworn in, his administration has achieved the following results:
1. unemployment amongst black Americans is at its lowest ever level;
2. the numbers of black business start-ups have increased by over 400%;
3. average wages for black Americans have significantly risen;
4. he has pardoned a significant number of black Americans who were wrongfully convicted, and pushed through significant prison reforms;
Yet the Democrats call him a racist!
But I've said my piece, and I'll leave it at that.
Speaking as an average American, I must, respectfully disagree. I know these points are spoken, however we don't see all of this in real time.
 
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