Cambridge International Masters

[Gareth Westwood]

I think you need reminding of where YOU were and who you were there with.

Your entire rant has been embarrassing.

Right Im not really supposed to be posting but I'll reply to this one.

Irony is a wonderful thinkg. As I would beg the question, when I go on to people about having heard all the performances etc, then I say, actually I didn't hear many bands.... do you not think its tongue in cheek. Maybe my humour has passed you by or maybe I just wasn't to successful in convaying it, to that end I apologise.

Second, as I have alluded to many times, my PERSONAL gripe on this thread has never been with the result. If one or two paragraphs did allude to the result then they are either said in passing, not ment to be the main subject of my point, or said ironically (as stated in previous paragraph).

Third, my main point however has been with some peoples delight at certain bands (and not especially my own either) not doing well.

I have found this puzzling to say the least and I think my arguement in this case is a fair one. It is neither my intention and certainly NOT my bands intention to quesiton the result or adjudication.

Indeed I believe there have been other posts that have done that already.

If you wish to debate my main point (please refer to paragraph 3) then please do so (although even I think that particular point has been now exahusted). If you wish to refer to my 'rant' about the result, then please be aware that there wasn't any intentional debate from me regarding this. I have congratulated the winners and anything I have said about my bands position in the field etc, has been tongue in cheek and DEFINATELY not the view of my band. I hope that puts things streight and people will appreciate that I have tried to take a back seat from this, and thus stop giving me a hard time.

 

[ballyhorn]

Excellent comment

Thank you

Sorry Rob...when the young lad stated Mark had resigned I thought it was out in the press..Didn't mean to pee anybody off...Hope you get it sorted though...

Bally

 

[JonP]

At the end of the day these contests are almost like lotteries. Normally at the Open or the nationals on a good year you find there is almost a separate contest between the top 5 or 6 bands (these days) and then the rest are left scrapping for a the next couple of positions in the top 10. We know, at least i do, that some of the adjudicators, expecially David Read do like to try and pick out which band is which. They spend some time trying to work out who is playing. What they then do with that information, well thats anyones guess i suppose, but it does happen. Not sure if its positive or negative, im not commenting on that.

The truth is that on Sunday last, the judges either really did just award the prizes on the interpritation only, ( I hope so) or they failed to pick out Fodens and then made a hash of trying to ensure they were in the top couple. I hope it was the prior but no one knows and no one ever will.

My main gripe here is that with Mr Read (which is unfair but he is around so much its easy to use him as an example) in particular, we dont seem to get a consistent reqirement from him. He openly addmitted a couple of years ago that he separated the 2,3,4,and 5th places at the welsh area on splits as he could not separate them. I remember Tred and BTM (who both played well) missed out on places at the nationals, and Parc and Burryport promptly came last and last but one at the contest teh following October.

On sunday it seems that splits were not taken into account at all. Players from Desford openly admit they did not consider their performance to be clean or what they would consider to be winning performance but in this case the music is what won them the proizes, which can only be down to the md, SO WELL DONE, thats great, but how do we have any idea what to try and do gto satisfy Mr Read, if there is no guarentee what he may bve listening out for on different days. there is no consistency in my view, which i think is wrong. In Boxing, when a decision is made by the judges tyhere is a set code of what tehy can award points for and what they should punish a contender for. We have no such guideline, leaving teh adjudicators ina position to change and alter what tey are looking for, mid contest if they like. This seems crazy to me.

Well done Desford and Nigel Seaman. Great Result for you both.

Does not Mr Morrisons suggestion of a mark scheme make sense, where there are definate perameters a judge should be tied to, with only a cirtain number of marks being awarded for personal preference. Someting like a grade or diploma exam i suppose. It would make sense. The masters may be the perfect place to try it out? Mr Biggs??? Any Chance?? maybe Poll the bands?? Why Not?

 

[ballyhorn]

I think if a band gives a superb exhibition of playing with no splits...just because you arent keen on the interpretation it should still win.....if there are 5 or 6 such performances then interpretation comes into play and only then....especially if the piece is a premiere and the composer isnt judging.....Which is a mystery to me because surely only he could judge the interpretations.

 

[little_miss_marcroft]

I think it would have been a better idea for him to stay until after the English Nationals though as he will have worked on the test piece and there wouldn't be much to work for with immediate effect after it.

Somehow i can see there may be a couple of vacancies arise at hepworth soon?

Sorry, who are you?

Unbelievable!

 

[Simon Preshom]

but in this case the music is what won them the proizes, which can only be down to the md

So Sir Simon Rattle conducts the Blimgby Trollope Silver Jubilee Band at the open: the reading is first rate but the playing is truly shocking. Would they would win? I doubt it.

What I am saying is that Desford's performance may not have been blemish-free but you still have to have the band capable of realising and putting into practice the MDs reading. Suggesting that Desford's fine bunch of players had nothing to do with the win is off the mark.

Well done both Desford Band and its fine conductor.

 

[DannyCollin]

Sorry, who are you?

Unbelievable!

Couldn't have put it better myself !

 

[Simon Preshom]

I think if a band gives a superb exhibition of playing with no splits...just because you arent keen on the interpretation it should still win.....if there are 5 or 6 such performances then interpretation comes into play and only then....especially if the piece is a premiere and the composer isnt judging.....Which is a mystery to me because surely only he could judge the interpretations.

Interpretation MUST always come into play.....that is what musical is all about. Otherwise why bother with a professional musician judge...we will get someone to sit next to you and count the sucks through your teeth at every split note, and the one with the least at the end of the day wins.

Not in my name!!!!

 

[DannyCollin]

Interpretation MUST always come into play.....that is what musical is all about. Otherwise why bother with a professional musician judge...we will get someone to sit next to you and count the sucks through your teeth at every split note, and the one with the least at the end of the day wins.

Not in my name!!!!

Interpretation means ****** ALL if the players don't play, does it?

 

[scotchgirl]

I wasn't at the contest, but I just wanted to say a big CONGRATULATIONS to Desford for winning!!

Ultimately its the adjudicators who choose who the winners and losers are...if you feel they've made a wrong decision/were biased/can't adjudicate, then get in touch with the organisers of the contest so that the same issues hopefully don't arise the next time....otherwise...tough!

Desford won because the ADJUDICATORS said so...they obviously played the best on the day according to the ADJUDICATORS....and well done to them...a win for the Midlands is a good thing in my book!

Nic
xxx

 

[andylockett86]

i can't believe what's been put on this thread abouth Hepworth and Mark. speculation this, rumour that. if you want some real news type in Amy Winehouse to any search engine.

"Somehow i can see there may be a couple of vacancies arise at hepworth soon?" even mystic Meg wouldn't have come up with such tripe!

start discussing when you know the facts, otherwise it's all as good as asking wikipedia about Denshaw Village - If you don't understand try it now ;-)

 

[Simon Preshom]

Interpretation means ****** ALL if the players don't play, does it?

Are you asking me or telling me?

 

[JohnnyEuph]

What mystifies me is how often bands seem to think they are exempt from rumours being circulated about them, and discussed on what is (after all) a public forum?

Nothing official was said about Avram Grant prior to his departure, did it stop people discussing rumours of it? Er, No.

If an organisation tries and put across a high profile, professional, corporate(ish) image, as many top bands do - can the organisation really complain when people discuss with interest any little (or massive in this case) rumours in the same way they would a top sporting team or company?

You can talk about it but cant write it? (even if it's within the law and non defamatory?)

Masterblaster jnr wasn't slagging anybody off, he was just posting something that is probably circulating around Huddersfield at the moment.

I think, if someone has the balls to post something that most likely has an element of truth in it, they shouldn't be shouted down with such arrogant 'who are you?' (ie 'what do you know') comments. Don't be offended. It's a two way street, and people have a right to post what they want within the law.

 

[ballyhorn]

So Sir Simon Rattle conducts the Blimgby Trollope Silver Jubilee Band at the open: the reading is first rate but the playing is truly shocking. Would they would win? I doubt it.

What I am saying is that Desford's performance may not have been blemish-free but you still have to have the band capable of realising and putting into practice the MDs reading. Suggesting that Desford's fine bunch of players had nothing to do with the win is off the mark.

Well done both Desford Band and its fine conductor.

You have just contradicted yourself by saying in the next post interpretation MUST always come into play......make your mind up about which way you want it!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[brittm]

You have just contradicted yourself by saying in the next post interpretation MUST always come into play......make your mind up about which way you want it!!!!!!!!!!!!

What I understand from the original post is that musicianship doesn't just come from the MD and so to say that an adjudication based on musicianship is a test of the MD only, just isn't the case.

I'd like to think I am not just a machine operator - my aim is to lift the music off the page. If whilst attempting to do just that I knock a couple over (which doesn't happen often ) I'd like to think there is still merit in the performance.

Split counting, for me, is a quantifiable but cheap way to judge a performance.

That said, there is a point at which imperfections get in the way of the music - but then, that's the point at which the music is starting to fail to lift off the page.

Martin (still smiling 5 days on)

 

[ballyhorn]

What I understand from the original post is that musicianship doesn't just come from the MD and so to say that an adjudication based on musicianship is a test of the MD only, just isn't the case.

I'd like to think I am not just a machine operator - my aim is to lift the music off the page. If whilst attempting to do just that I knock a couple over (which doesn't happen often ) I'd like to think there is still merit in the performance.

Split counting, for me, is a quantifiable but cheap way to judge a performance.

That said, there is a point at which imperfections get in the way of the music - but then, that's the point at which the music is starting to fail to lift off the page.

Martin (still smiling 5 days on)

Not having a go at Desford like I said earlier its been coming well done and enjoy it....but sometimes the only way you can judge a performance is by how clean it is..but this time it appears Desford did win because of the man in the middle not necessarily because of the performance.....Did Paul play horn on Sunday?

 

[brittm]

Not having a go at Desford like I said earlier its been coming well done and enjoy it....but sometimes the only way you can judge a performance is by how clean it is..but this time it appears Desford did win because of the man in the middle not necessarily because of the performance.....Did Paul play horn on Sunday?

I understand that we're talking principles here, that's why I didn't really want to comment on this thread ('cause it looks very partisan).

Again though, I'd have to say that the idea of an MD being almost entirley responsible for the musicianship in a performance is not one I would consider viable.

Sorry to labour the point "but" the music is the first and last reason I play in a band. I am not a passive cog in the grand plan of an MD (as a couple of MD's would probably agree!) and therefore to judge a performance on its musical success does not mean you are judging the MD alone.

I expect more of an adjudicator than split counting and I think they should expect more from us than merely playing all the right notes in the right order.

Unfortunately Mr Bennett, having been instrumental in organising the band in the run up to the Masters, then had a work trip that put him out of action...

Thanks for the sentiment, it's nice to have notched up Desford's first "Major" since 1991

 

[ballyhorn]

Well all I can say is make sure he works more often ......tell him hello from me.

Bally

 

[Gareth Westwood]

Im thinking a couple of things on the whole interpretation thing. Not sure if people agree.

I'm thinking we are the keys and the conductor is the piano. Ie we (as players) must be capable and musical enough to realise the conductors musical requests and carry them out. But ultimately the MD makes all the musical decisions. It is the MDs job to lift the page off the score. It is the players to realise the interpretation set out. Ie we all have to conform to the MDs musical judgement otherwise we'd have 25 different interpretations... and that doesn't work.

Second, music is very subjective surely. One mans idea of a nice intepretation may not mach another mans. Indeed we have seen it on this thread where some posters prefered band x's interpretation and some prefered band y's interpretation.
With that in mind is it fair at all to judge PURELY on interpretation. Im not saying it doesn't play a part but if we are judging, surely the quantafiable has to take precedent over the subjective.

So we arrive at the question, is contesting music?

In my opinion yes... a very small percentage. The rest is sport. Thats why I do concerts as well!

Just my 2 pence worth, again.

 

[brassbandmaestro]

Ive always had an idea of that way of thinking Gareth Westwood.

What I always find in brass banding is that its so similar to sport, especially football, rugby, etc.

The MD is the coach/manager and we are the players, so to speak. Thats how I always tell people who are not in the know and they seem to understand about it really.