Area Appeals

Tuba Miriam

Member
In a section of 8 - 4+4+8=16

In a section of17 - 8+9+17=34

Assuming the sections are the same size each year with no new entrants, the effect is exactly the same.
Maybe, maybe not, your example doesn't work without reference to other bands in the section and the permutations different results would give.

My point is, in some cirmcumstances, does 8th place in a field of 8 have something of a levelling effect that doesn't exist with 17th in a field of 17?
 

Pauli Walnuts

Moderator
Staff member
let's add another parameter - the fire alarm goes off after the band have started a very poor performance - they return and the second time around, it's a lot better.

We can argue statistics until the cows come home - at the end of the day, this is an opinion rather than a position of fact so there will be many and varied opinions!

I am intrigued as to which contest featured the mop and bucket - can you share more on that one one Will?
 

stevetrom

Well-Known Member
Scrap the 3 year average system, straight forward 2 up, 2 down (or 1 or 3 depending on section size).

No appeals.

No big deal being relegated - if you're good enough you can bounce straight back up.

No big deal being promoted - if you're not good enough you will have the fun & excitement of playing in a higher section for a year and then come back down.

Also, section sizes can be easily adjusted (i.e. 1 down, 2 up for a couple of years)
 

Red Elvis

Active Member
I am intrigued as to which contest featured the mop and bucket - can you share more on that one one Will?
If memory serves , it was Butlins 2007 , 1st section ,and the band concerned were Ipswich and Norwich Co-op (some months before I joined them - I was still with Becontree at the time) and so it wouldn't have any impact on gradings. From what I gather , the band were offered the option of going on again last and playing again - as far as I know they decided to let it stand as was. Becontree came bottom of the section that year without the aid of interruptions from cleaners or fire alarms !!
 

MoominDave

Well-Known Member
No big deal being relegated - if you're good enough you can bounce straight back up.
Not really how it works - look at Scotland for an example, where the top two are promoted each year and relegation is done on a weighted aggregate (but still one that works more quickly than the English/Welsh system). Bands move through the sections much more freely, and consequently more players tend to be less long-term loyal to bands. A band that is relegated while holding a number of talented players whose commitment is dependent on playing for an x-section band is likely to stay relegated. In fact, I could cite a number of cases where more than one relegation has happened to a band in close succession in Scotland. Lochgelly is one good example - a band that's been to both bottom and top in the last 20 years - but it's not the only one.

IMO, the Scottish system moves bands around too fast, whereas the English/Welsh system doesn't move them around quickly enough. Your proposal would be even faster than the Scottish system.
 

stevetrom

Well-Known Member
...IMO, the Scottish system moves bands around too fast, whereas the English/Welsh system doesn't move them around quickly enough. Your proposal would be even faster than the Scottish system.
you didn't expect me to do any research, or even think for very long, before offering my opinion did you?
Where's the fun in that?

I agree that the current system in England is way to slow and, when combined with some stupidly large sections, bands )like mine) can get stuck in the middle of a section never to go up or down.

If players leave a band simply because it gets relegated are they really the type of characters you want in the band?
 

MoominDave

Well-Known Member
My point was that having a system that moves bands around too quickly encourages an atmosphere where it is seen as a more reasonable thing to move bands more often. Relegation (or promotion) can become a feedback loop under such circumstances due to this. Our system damps that feedback loop more than sufficiently - too much, in fact; the Scottish system doesn't damp it enough.
 

stevetrom

Well-Known Member
ok then.

1st place automatic promotion
Last place automatic relegation
1 (or 2) more band promoted/relegated based on weighted average similar to Scotland
 

MoominDave

Well-Known Member
We won't know until we try it! But I suspect it would still be a bit fast - promotion would be a little slower than Scotland, but relegation would be a little faster.

Incidentally, I believe the Scots have been looking at a play-off system recently.
 

yoda

Member
Incidentally, I believe the Scots have been looking at a play-off system recently.
At the end of the contest, the bands placed 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (in the league not the contest) would play again to secure promotion, while 3 bands making up the bottom 4(in the league) would play again to see who escapes religation, assuming the bottom one gets relegated and the top one gets promoted as of right.............

Interesting idea.........

not sure it would do much for the bar sales ;) :D

also, the midlands 4th section would last at least another 2 hours :) which everyone wants of course :p
 

Will the Sec

Active Member
When would the play offs take place? Allowing for the propensity for bands beng in the bottom four to have been absent from the qualifier, it would not work on the same day, and why would a band turn up on a different day just to be relegated? Especially given the distances and associated costs in some regions.
 

Laserbeam bass

Active Member
I might compose some rubbish, Pauli, but I haven't stooped that low. Yet. ... ... ... Leaves gap for LBB to say something... ... ... Oh, hang on, there was this. :D
Thanks for the nod Bro. I was intending to write a comedic piece, but as I have now been given a great idea from Pauli, I will have to reconsider.

Whilst the band finishing ninth was promoted. I wonder which is happier? Egham for going up or Becontree for staying down?:D
Didn't want to get promoted, and don't want to win the Nationals neither. That way we can defend our Butlin's 1st section crown :-D

If memory serves , it was Butlins 2007 , 1st section ,and the band concerned were Ipswich and Norwich Co-op (some months before I joined them - I was still with Becontree at the time) and so it wouldn't have any impact on gradings. From what I gather , the band were offered the option of going on again last and playing again - as far as I know they decided to let it stand as was. Becontree came bottom of the section that year without the aid of interruptions from cleaners or fire alarms !!
I have one thing to say

:guiness

We were actually lead astray by a prominent cornet player. Drank until silly o'clock on the Saturday morning, and managed to put in a performance of such a low standard, that we actually awarded last place in the 4th Section :oops:
 

simonium

Member
I wonder if the unnamed band's successful appeal against relegation adversely affected my band's appeal for promotion?
 
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