Percussionists at Contests

[Anno Draconis]

How is any band to second guess what the adjudicators expectations are? Some adjudicators are sympathetic to the bands percussion resources than others.
Again though, why should an adjudicator make allowances for a learner percussionist that they wouldn't make for a learner cornet player?

True. All the same points made in this thread about percussionists could be potentially made about (for example) soprano players - there are some pieces that place great demands on them and some that don't, there are occasions when a missing sop part simply can't be covered by anyone else in the band (because of the range), it's a specialist position that is (or should be) blatantly obvious if it's missing, competent players can be hard to find especially in the run-up to area season, sometimes the player in the seat might be inexperienced or learning their craft, etc.

But no-one is proposing that allowances be made if the sop part doesn't go in, or gets sprayed over the wall. Why the difference? Players are either wanted as part of the band or they're not. For me most modern band music requires at least two percussionists in the same way that it requires two baritones or a full section of three horns. There's no "special case" to be made.

As far as test-pieces are concerned, it's kind of a no-win situation. Because there are no funds available to commission area test-pieces (or even finals ones, these days...) the panel have to pick existing pieces written for other events, quite often NOT written as test-pieces. They don't have the luxury of specifying "only one percussionist" or "one plus optional extras", or anything like that, because the pieces already exist. To remove the requirement for ANY percussion one would have to restrict the selection of pieces to only those written pre-1960 (ish). Zzzzz... For example: technically, The Mermaid of Zennor requires three and in one place, FOUR percussionists (there's a bar near the end that's only playable as written with four players if you include the optional clash cymbals), but that's because it was written for the Cornish Youth Band, who would otherwise have folk hanging around spare at the back - it wasn't commissioned by the music panel as an area piece. I'm sure Philip wrote it with contest use in the back of his mind, but his first objective would be to write for the forces that commissioned it. If music selection was limited to those pieces that are perceived as somehow "ideal" in terms of difficulty and percussion requirements, we'd be playing the same set of pieces every ten years or so on a repeating cycle.

Separate issue, but: I'm with Pauli on registration - in fact one of my first ever posts on here many years ago was about scrapping registration. Certainly outside the top flight it's destroying banding for the sake of bureaucracy. I know a number of people whose "main" band is in the top section but who regularly help out their "B" band, or the band their kids play in, or the band their mate conducts at concerts. Why are they excluded from contesting with a band that they regularly play with just because they also play with another? It's beyond stupid, especially if said "B" band or kids band is short of a few. We're running 2016 banding on 1950s rules simply because "that's what we've always done", as far as I can see. I don't give a mouse-sized $hit if a local lower section band imports a top section soloist (and that happens anyway, registration notwithstanding) but I DO want to see players who help out their "2nd" band week in, week out, able to give the same help on the contest stage as they do in the local park. After all, isn't it a regular complaint that some bands don't turn out the same team for a contest that they turn out for a concert the following week? Registration appears not to prevent that. It DOES however discourage and prevent participation in the lower sections, and has for years.

 

[Anno Draconis]

How about an automatic deduction of 'x' points if a band chooses to play without percussion?

Would the same apply if they have no sop? Or no bass trombone?

 

[Euphonium Lite]

Very true bar one issue Pauli - it gives a big advantage to areas where you have a larger number of bands, especially at the higher level. It could be argued that the main areas - NW and Yorkshire - are reasonably successful already on a national stage, but opening it up potentially means that a lower section band from these regions could use (for example) players from Grimethorpe (who haven't qualified for the finals), whereas a band in the far SW or East Anglia could be disadvantaged as the number of top level bands is a lot smaller.
And then of course there is Wales - reasonably successful but likely to suffer detriment as there aren't the same number of top level bands - and the bands that are there are likely to be in the finals anyway.
On a local level it works - most of the bands taking part in the SCABA contest are within a reasonable distance (50-60 miles of each other) so its less of an issue. Even - potentially - the areas, although again it could be argued that (in LSC for example) bands in locations such as Oxfordshire would have an advantage to those based in Suffolk or Kent as a lot of the better Midlands bands are not far away.
The areas of course determine your section - so there is potentially way more at stake and therefore bands are more likely to indulge in pushing the boundaries (and yes I know they do now anyway).
Another option would be to allow borrowing - even from sections above - which would probably cover most of the situation around "usually play in the concert band" - but limiting numbers (ie 4 non-reg players with a maximum of 2 from sections above)

 

[MoominDave]

I think that overstates by quite a bit the likelihood of players with top bands wanting to turn out at lower level. Why would players do this? I can think of only a couple of reasons - 1) Genuine connection to the band in question, or 2) Getting paid.

(1) seems a good thing, and what Andy is arguing for. (2) isn't barred now - there is already a large pool of high quality players around in areas of some population density that can be hired in to sign a registration form and play parts for contests. Some bands do, some bands don't, and it isn't those that pay to have superstars on the day that tend to win lower section contests - "champion band over band over champions", etc.

So I don't see a problem with it. The days when contest prize pots were large enough relative to salaries that people cared hugely about gaining any possible edge of gamesmanship that they thought they could derive are well over a hundred years gone.

 

[Pauli Walnuts]

Here's the scaba rules on this which I think covers part of one of the points you raise;

Rules for Day Transfer of Players a) IMPORTANT A Band may borrow no more than 4 players for any one contest. Unattached or Non-registered players will NOT be permitted. b) A player may have only one Day Transfer per contest. That player must be registered at least fourteen days before the date of the contest (in accordance with the scaba Contesting Rules). c) A Player on Day Transfer for a Contest may play for: 1. The band which has applied for the transfer and has completed the appropriate form to the satisfaction of the contest promoter (subject to the restrictions on Sections itemised below). 2. The band with which he/she is normally registered if that band is competing. d) Championship Section Borrowed players in the above section shall be registered players from bands registered either the same grade or grades lower than the borrowing band. e) First, Second and Third Sections Borrowed players in the above sections must be registered players from bands registered the same grade or lower/ or, of the four permitted borrowed players, up to two may be from one section higher. f) In the case of a player being registered both Nationally with one band and with a band with a local association grading, the lower of the two grades will be taken. g) In the case of an entertainment type of contest where a prize is available for a 'stand-up' soloist it is not permitted to borrow the soloist. h) The inclusion of borrowed players will be permitted up to and including the day of the contest. i) This 'Day Transfer Rule' does not eliminate the options of borrowing a player due to illness on the day of the contest as defined in scaba

If something like this were put into place but without the ability to use players from a higher section, then it could work.

UPDATE: scaba do have some changes planned for these rules so anyone attending one of their contests should seek the current position from the association. The form I have quoted may be slightly out of date. However, the example is still valid as a foundation for change to national contest rules.

 

[Anno Draconis]

Very true bar one issue Pauli - it gives a big advantage to areas where you have a larger number of bands, especially at the higher level. It could be argued that the main areas - NW and Yorkshire - are reasonably successful already on a national stage, but opening it up potentially means that a lower section band from these regions could use (for example) players from Grimethorpe (who haven't qualified for the finals), whereas a band in the far SW or East Anglia could be disadvantaged as the number of top level bands is a lot smaller.

That assumes that (for example) "players from Grimethorpe" have the time or interest to do so - from memory they do on average nearly a gig a week, so time might be an issue. Other bands might have workloads not quite as heavy, but they're still pretty damn busy.
It also assumes that having a player from Grimethorpe or Leyland (for example) would give a lower section band more of an advantage than having a player from Woodfalls, Camborne, Friary or Aveley.
It also assumes that parachuting said player in for a contest (as opposed to using a player who regularly helps the band out on concerts anyway and is a part of the "team") will improve the lower section band's results.

It might not surprise you to learn that I don't agree with any of those assumptions...

 

[stevetrom]

Totally agree

Would the same apply if they have no sop? Or no bass trombone?

Unlikely.

Bands have players that can cover bass trombone or sop parts, or learn to play the instruments.

Percussion is a completely different skill and not so easy to learn for a brass player.

 

[MoominDave]

Playing brass requires a certain amount of muscular training to make the notes happen at all with any degree of reliable control. If one has the musicianship imparted by learning a brass instrument, then for many people it is actually easier to learn to make a passable job of hitting one drum at once (which is often all that's required in band contest pieces, which don't tend to have kit parts) than it is to transfer to a different brass instrument that requires a change of embouchure. If they also have some piano skills, then they're well on the way to decent tuned percussion bluffing too.

Filling your percussion section with transferred brass players isn't going to produce a world-beating team overnight. But it is very doable for most brass band repertoire.

 

[stevetrom]

Playing brass requires a certain amount of muscular training to make the notes happen at all with any degree of reliable control. If one has the musicianship imparted by learning a brass instrument, then for many people it is actually easier to learn to make a passable job of hitting one drum at once (which is often all that's required in band contest pieces, which don't tend to have kit parts) than it is to transfer to a different brass instrument that requires a change of embouchure. If they also have some piano skills, then they're well on the way to decent tuned percussion bluffing too.

Filling your percussion section with transferred brass players isn't going to produce a world-beating team overnight. But it is very doable for most brass band repertoire.

and the kit part?

 

[MoominDave]

band contest pieces, which don't tend to have kit parts

If that isn't totally clear, let me clarify. It is rare to find a band contest piece at any level that requires the kind of specialist kit skills that specialist kit drummers need and display. Even parts marked "kit" in brass band competition pieces don't tend to make those demands - because it usually sounds dreadfully cheesy to add a kit beat behind a serious piece of music... The scoring we see tends more and more to the 'orchestral percussion' way of writing - individuals with particular percussion instruments to mind.

Park jobs - a different and harder matter! You need a specialist kit player to make that stuff sound good.

 

[Ianroberts]

and the kit part?

make em wear the same uniform as everyone else !

 

[Tom-King]

Even parts marked "kit" in brass band competition pieces don't tend to make those demands - because it usually sounds dreadfully cheesy to add a kit beat behind a serious piece of music...

Exactly - its not uncommon to see the "kit" part played from standing positions (on a contest stage) to allow the player to move to other percussion parts more easily, a reflection both of bands going on without (quite) enough perc players AND the lack of content in the "kit" part.

 

[Euphonium Lite]

That assumes that (for example) "players from Grimethorpe" have the time or interest to do so - from memory they do on average nearly a gig a week, so time might be an issue. Other bands might have workloads not quite as heavy, but they're still pretty damn busy.
It also assumes that having a player from Grimethorpe or Leyland (for example) would give a lower section band more of an advantage than having a player from Woodfalls, Camborne, Friary or Aveley.
It also assumes that parachuting said player in for a contest (as opposed to using a player who regularly helps the band out on concerts anyway and is a part of the "team") will improve the lower section band's results.

It might not surprise you to learn that I don't agree with any of those assumptions...

Fair point. I don't think the odd player makes a difference - it's potentially the parachuting a number in that doesn't sit totally comfortably with me, although I also take on board Moomin's comment around why would they do that unless they are helping a mate OR are being paid (and in the latter case spending that sort of money is probably out of most band's remit....)

The issue around training bands is a good one - part of me is much in favour of having an "organisation" registered, not individual bands. So if you have a number of training/B/Academy bands (Wantage is the first that springs to mind) then you are registered with that band - and can appear for any of them. However the flip argument is that is there anything stopping the entire Wantage A band turning out for the academy band for example.......I think there would have to be some sort of controls to stop that happening to that extent, but my main gut feel is that where bands have put time money and other resources into training and continuing our movement, why shouldn't they get an advantage of some kind of free movement. More so than perhaps giving an advantage purely through luck of geography?

 

[Euphonium Lite]

Exactly - its not uncommon to see the "kit" part played from standing positions (on a contest stage) to allow the player to move to other percussion parts more easily, a reflection both of bands going on without (quite) enough perc players AND the lack of content in the "kit" part.

I'd suggest that "Kit parts" generally appear in lower section testpieces - Music for a Festival and Five French Masters (used in Sec 4 Butlins in 2015) springs to mind straight off but I'm pretty sure there are several others

 

[MoominDave]

You may well be on to something there, and something interesting too. Do composers consciously aim 'cheesier' when writing for lower sections, and hence write untuned percussion in a more 'kitty' way? Thereby making life harder for lower section percussion fixers.

Though I do not think I recall any kit percussion part from my lower section contesting days (or higher section playing some of these pieces in concerts days - 'Music for a Festival' we did at our Xmas concert a couple of years ago) that calls for levels of kit skill that couldn't be happily split between two non-specialist players.

 

[Euphman2]

With reference to Anno Draconis' post earlier, (I am too inept with computers to cut and paste the bit I want), I played at Hard Raw Scar with a band that registered my father, aged 80, to hit a cymbal and then do a drum roll at the end of one piece o music on the programme. This was due to too few percussion players even for an entertainment contest.
His only other involvement in playing had been as a bass drummer on the march for most of my 49 years playing.He could march well having been in the Guards.

 

[nethers]

Scrap registration for percussionists?

 

[PeterBale]

I haven't got an answer to the problem of the shortage of players, but I do feel there is a need for consistency regarding adjudication. It must be disheartening for a band (and players) that has gone to a lot of effort to include the percussion parts, only to find they are overlooked in the adjudication, and they find themselves placed below bands who do not appear even to have made an effort. That is certainly not the way to encourage percussionists to become affiliated to bands, where they have to feel wanted all year round, and not just for a few weeks a year to win brownie points.

 

[nethers]

At the Aussie nationals we are playing two major works with five percussionists running around like headless chickens... Excellent chance that the adjudicator won't even mention them!

 

[MoominDave]

Our four percussionists were the stars of the crit sheet at our win at Leicester in November. They're not always ignored!