Sibelius First Question
- Thread starter DocFox
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DocFox
Well-Known Member
I think people are getting themselves wound up unnecessarily over this business of whether an instrument should be described as transposing or not. It is just a matter of convention, and it is more accurate to describe the process as being 'written as' a transposing intrument when using treble clef notation.
GJG
Well-Known Member
I think you may be misreading 2nd Tenor's post and confusing treble clef with tenor clef ... The TC abbreviation isn't helpful when it can mean one of two things.
Bbmad
Active Member
On the contrary, I can't wait to see who will get the last word on this one.
DocFox
Well-Known Member
Who wants the last word? All this talk about transposition was about composition and the sounds produced by music software. Euphonium, in TC when playing a tuning "Bb" playes "open". But it sounds a 9th lower.
This becomes a problem because I am cheap. The latest Sibelius (and probably Finale) has a templete that does the PLAYBACK transposing.
Without that, I have to try to trick Sibelius into playing Euph in TC down a 9th. Hence the beginning of this thread.
A full Sibelius 7.5 package is $795 US. An upgrade is $195/year every year. I have version 5 which does not work well with my computer.
So transposing and tricking to make my own template is my only choice. I bought Sibelius First (again being cheap) but it does not have a brass band template. So I can write anything but brass band arrangements.
Anno Draconis
Well-Known Member
Surely (unless I've misunderstood) WRITING them is not the issue. Playing them back at the correct pitch is the issue - and if you absolutely need the playback why not write the euphonium in bass clef concert pitch like the bass trombone (at sounding pitch as it would be in an orchestral score) so it sounds right and then, when you're happy with your score, create a transposition change to Bb and transpose it down a tone or something so it 'looks' right?
I used to have to do this with BBb bass parts. Minor PITA but that's all.
DocFox
Well-Known Member
This is the type of work aroound I am using. A lot of work if you go back and forth from writing to listening. But you brought up a good idea.
Correction on my part: Sibelius will upgrade my old version for $195 and no annual fee.
Apology to 2T: If I miss read Tenor Clef for Treble Clef, I apologize. Tenor trombone is an Eb transposing instrument.
Sibelius has a Brass Band template that does automatically what Anno Draconis suggested. At the price suggested, I might buy it. But my internet is down and I am using my iPad, which is hard to type on (and I am getting no email). A technician will be here in about 2 hours. I will be thankful!
GJG
Well-Known Member
The latest Finale (2014d) does not have a brass band template. It is no big deal to set one up, and, with the exception of BBb bass, all the transpositions are already set up and can be selected from a drop-down menu. All instruments will play back correctly.
The latest version of Finale PrintMusic (which is, I guess, the MakeMusic equivalent of Sibelius First, and is significantly cheaper) also does not have a brass band template, and it's a bit harder to set one up from scratch, although it can be done. However if you are friends with a tame user of the full Finale package, it's possible for them to set up a template and e-mail it to you, so you can open and use it in PrintMusic. MakeMusic, naturally, don't like you doing this, however they have no real way of stopping you.
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GJG
Well-Known Member
Ermm, no, it's not; I have to assume this is just a typo, otherwise I am really worried about your understand of transposition ...
At the time of writing I feared that something might become lost in translation from this 'side of the pond' to yours, and then discounted the idea. Oh well, misuderstandings happen but it is cleared up now.
The Tenor Trombone is a Bb transposing instrument and I assume that you wrote Eb in error.
There is such a thing a an Eb Trombone and it's called an Alto, the Alto Trombone isn't used by Brass Bands but is (I believe) occasionally used in Orchestras and Trombone 'Choirs'. For a picture of and more details about the Alto Eb Trombone please see: http://www.johnpacker.co.uk/Catalog...one/Student/JP136-Alto-Trombone-Eb-Lcq-101607 .
Bbmad
Active Member
Gee that picture sure is swell! Thanks for the share 2T
GJG
Well-Known Member
Oh dear; we are getting dangerously close to re-hashing the whole of the David Walton thread, but the clarification has to be made.
This statement is only true if it is being written for in treble clef, transposed up a major 9th from concert (sounding) pitch, with a +2 sharps/-2 flats key signature adjustment. (ie "brass band style). If the part is written in either tenor clef or bass clef, at concert pitch, then it is not a transposing instrument.
In short, the instrument itself, physically, is neither transposing nor non-transposing; what determines the definition is how the part is notated. In the same way, the Alto Trombone is normally written for in alto clef, at concert pitch, therefore it is not a transposing instrument; the fact that the fundamental pitch of the instrument is Eb is irrelevant.
The same is true for all baritones, euphoniums, and all sizes of tuba, irrespective of the fundamental pitch of the instrument.
I have tried to make the definition as succinct and precise as I can; I hope it's enough ...
This statement is only true if it is being written for in treble clef, transposed up a major 9th from concert (sounding) pitch, with a +2 sharps/-2 flats key signature adjustment. (ie "brass band style). If the part is written in either tenor clef or bass clef, at concert pitch, then it is not a transposing instrument.
In short, the instrument itself, physically, is neither transposing nor non-transposing; what determines the definition is how the part is notated. In the same way, the Alto Trombone is normally written for in alto clef, at concert pitch, therefore it is not a transposing instrument; the fact that the fundamental pitch of the instrument is Eb is irrelevant.
The same is true for all baritones, euphoniums, and all sizes of tuba, irrespective of the fundamental pitch of the instrument.
I have tried to make the definition as succinct and precise as I can; I hope it's enough ...
DocFox
Well-Known Member
You did. Keys and clefs are important. BTW, I got an answer from Sibelius. It does have a Brass Band template that works. It keeps you from doing any "work arounds". I guess $195 might be worth it rather than making my own template and work around.
THANKS to all the kind people who contributed.
DocFox
Well-Known Member
You are correct. My computer now works again and makes things a lot easier. You said TENOR, I mistakingly read ALTO. My mistake and again I apologize. Bb Tenor trombones in bass clef are concert instruments. Eb Altos are, as the name implies, in Eb. Thank you for politely pointing this out to me.
Bbmad
Active Member
Hey Doc, really glad that your computer is working again however, you may need to get your IT man back again as your font appears to have gone really really small.
DocFox
Well-Known Member
Weird -- I have had less than two hours sleep because of this computer. The radio station was down and I didn't even know. Is this better?
Bbmad
Active Member
Much better! I hope you can catch some kip soon, can't be good for you to only get 2 hours sleep and by my reckoning it must be 4 in the morning? Such lack of sleep would make Bbmad a very grouchy grouch indeed.
DocFox
Well-Known Member
Other way --> I am -6 GMT, It is 5:15 PM here which should make it close to 11:15 PM in London. I will go to sleep at a normal time so I do not screw up my sleep schedule.
Thanks