Grimethorpe Announcement

[centralbankofdad]

A band like Grimethorpe ARE professional players! They have played on Film, T.V. Top Venues and to C.D standard LIVE. They just happen not to all get a wage. The band gets paid for every gig and rightfully so. The M.U's previously mentioned grumble (if they have one) is either because they can’t accept the fact that un-paid players can play as well as paid players or because said un-paid player are not part of their little club.

Perhaps I should have said "full-time professional".

[Ianroberts]

I can't believe that you reckon the public can't tell the difference between professional and amateur musicians.

never mind the public, theres a few adjudicators that cant seem to either !!

[Bungle]

Perhaps I should have said "full-time professional".

Like the British army brass band?

[Stracathro]

Is there not a distinction to be made here between workers (such as bus drivers etc) being asked to their usual job under unusual circumstances and musicians being offered the chance to take part in a once in a lifetime event?

Any ensemble would be perfectly entitled to turn down the chance to take part in the Opening Ceremony but I doubt many would simply because of the prestige of the occasion. There is also the issue of exposure and how much additional revenue performers may reap due to becoming more well known or popular.

A problem only arises in my opinion if you have a brass band, playing for free, stood next to an orchestra (or whoever) being paid to perform. Either you pay the market rate for ALL performers, or perhaps a little less due to the prestige etc, or you ask everyone to perform on a voluntary basis.

[Ali]

Is there not a distinction to be made here between workers (such as bus drivers etc) being asked to their usual job under unusual circumstances and musicians being offered the chance to take part in a once in a lifetime event?

Any ensemble would be perfectly entitled to turn down the chance to take part in the Opening Ceremony but I doubt many would simply because of the prestige of the occasion. There is also the issue of exposure and how much additional revenue performers may reap due to becoming more well known or popular.

A problem only arises in my opinion if you have a brass band, playing for free, stood next to an orchestra (or whoever) being paid to perform. Either you pay the market rate for ALL performers, or perhaps a little less due to the prestige etc, or you ask everyone to perform on a voluntary basis.

Bang on!!!

[GJG]

Is there not a distinction to be made here between workers (such as bus drivers etc) being asked to their usual job under unusual circumstances and musicians being offered the chance to take part in a once in a lifetime event?

Any ensemble would be perfectly entitled to turn down the chance to take part in the Opening Ceremony but I doubt many would simply because of the prestige of the occasion. There is also the issue of exposure and how much additional revenue performers may reap due to becoming more well known or popular.

A problem only arises in my opinion if you have a brass band, playing for free, stood next to an orchestra (or whoever) being paid to perform. Either you pay the market rate for ALL performers, or perhaps a little less due to the prestige etc, or you ask everyone to perform on a voluntary basis.

"Dear Mr. Bank Manager,
I'm sorry, but I will be unable to make my mortgage repayment this month due to my having been invited to perform at the Olympics for no fee. Perhaps you would be so good as to accept this envelope full of prestige in lieu ... ? "

[Ianroberts]

"Dear Mr. Bank Manager,
I'm sorry, but I will be unable to make my mortgage repayment this month due to my having been invited to perform at the Olympics for no fee. Perhaps you would be so good as to accept this envelope full of prestige in lieu ... ? "

How much does being a Drama queen pay now a days ?

[Stracathro]

"Dear Mr. Bank Manager,
I'm sorry, but I will be unable to make my mortgage repayment this month due to my having been invited to perform at the Olympics for no fee. Perhaps you would be so good as to accept this envelope full of prestige in lieu ... ? "

"Dear Seb Coe, Thank-you for your invitation to perform at the Olympic Opening Ceremony. Unfortunately, it is not feasible for our band to attend due to the cost involved and so we regret that we will have to politely decline. We know that you are not paying any musical groups to perform so no hard feelings. Yours etc."

As I said before, I only see a problem here if some are being paid and others not. I don't think there is going to be a precedent set but I understand the concern of those who fear there might be. For instance, for other major sporting events etc. I simply think that the Olympic Opening Ceremony is so unique an event that nothing can compare. Also, though you dismiss it, the band probably will earn more in the long run via the extra exposure. How much less $$$ do you think Grimey would have raked in over the last 20 years if it weren't for Brassed Off (and yes I'm sure the band got paid for appearing in the film!). In that context, it works as a business decision.

[DRW]

A problem only arises in my opinion if you have a brass band, playing for free, stood next to an orchestra (or whoever) being paid to perform. Either you pay the market rate for ALL performers, or perhaps a little less due to the prestige etc, or you ask everyone to perform on a voluntary basis.

I disagree. Presumably all parties will attend on terms that they have agreed to. For any purchaser / seller relationship, both parties have the option to refuse the terms offered. Whether or not those terms are consistent across contracts is irrelevant.

Linked with comments from fatcontroler, musicians are not immune from market forces. Unfortunately for the professionals, they are in an industry where there is possibly unparalleled competition from amateurs.

[GJG]

How much does being a Drama queen pay now a days ?

No drama involved; just making the point that for a working musician, prestige doesn't pay the bills ...

[Space Cowboy]

Like the British army brass band?

I did wonder about this band too and why when the Military and the BBC are the largest employers of professional musicians in the country do they actually need anyone else at extra cost.

[Ianroberts]

No drama involved; just making the point that for a working musician, prestige doesn't pay the bills ...

thanks for clearing that up !

[DRW]

No drama involved; just making the point that for a working musician, prestige doesn't pay the bills ...

But there's no reason why it couldn't help. Cadbury's, McDonalds, Coke etc. are paying to take part for the prestige and business benefits.

[Stracathro]

No drama involved; just making the point that for a working musician, prestige doesn't pay the bills ...

Ok, lets look at a quick scenario: An event asks your band to attend for free but with the promise that the free advertising generated will vastly excede any fee that may have usually been payable. You therefore have two choices.

1) Do your sums and if you agree that the long term return outweighs the short term loss sign on the dotted line.

2) Whilst accepting premise of '1)' you feel that the precedent you set by playing for free will actually harm your income in future and/or negatively affect other bands even if you do yourself benefit.

My argument is that the Olympics is unique and therefore '1)' is justifiable. I completely undertand the counter position but feel that it might be overly cautious. Also, with regard to the effect on other bands, worldwide exposure of brass bands is surely good for eveyone in the long term.

[GJG]

Ok, lets look at a quick scenario: An event asks your band to attend for free but with the promise that the free advertising generated will vastly excede any fee that may have usually been payable. You therefore have two choices.

1) Do your sums and if you agree that the long term return outweighs the short term loss sign on the dotted line.

2) Whilst accepting premise of '1)' you feel that the precedent you set by playing for free will actually harm your income in future and/or negatively affect other bands even if you do yourself benefit.

My argument is that the Olympics is unique and therefore '1)' is justifiable. I completely undertand the counter position but feel that it might be overly cautious. Also, with regard to the effect on other bands, worldwide exposure of brass bands is surely good for eveyone in the long term.

Don't disagree with any of that, from the perspective of an "amateur" brass band. However the discussion seems to have become twisted and slightly misdirected; when I made my original points several pages back, it seemed to me that some people were objecting to professional musicians expecting to be paid for performing.