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    "Average Grand Shield band" and "can hold their...

    "Average Grand Shield band" and "can hold their own in the Championship section" aren't incompatible statements, are they?
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    OK, fair enough.

    OK, fair enough.
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    This is an important point for anyone dismissing...

    This is an important point for anyone dismissing the lower section contests - are there any other contests which come anywhere close to offering two grand for the 4th section winner?


    Having...
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    It's a revelation. Until now, I thought Butlins...

    It's a revelation. Until now, I thought Butlins did it as a philanthropic effort to support the miners.

    If the biggest problem with Butlins is "The best band who regularly appear here has has got...
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    Yep. In particular, ask them to point to anything...

    Yep. In particular, ask them to point to anything in the rules for the areas which says anything about this: http://www.nationalbrassbandchampionships.com/index.php?id=5
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    Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant that it would be...

    Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant that it would be an ad hominem dismissal of the (hypothetical) young persons' views, but in any case I doubt this was the intention.
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    Don't remove one potential barrier, because...

    Don't remove one potential barrier, because others might still exist? What a bizarre position that was to take!
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    Don't forget third place at the Open, too.

    Don't forget third place at the Open, too.
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    There's a hint of the opposite ageism creeping in...

    There's a hint of the opposite ageism creeping in here: many older people formed their 'modern' points of view long ago, while others fail to change at all no matter how strong the evidence against...
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    One which we've all overlooked until now:...

    One which we've all overlooked until now: http://www.trinitygirlsbrassband.org.uk/
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    How short does one have to be for this to really...

    How short does one have to be for this to really be a problem, and why is it only a barrier for the top bands?
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    Fulham had a black conductor at Butlins this...

    Fulham had a black conductor at Butlins this year, I think?
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    Agreed, it's never easy to see a promising player...

    Agreed, it's never easy to see a promising player move on. But irrespective of whether they head off to study music in those places, the reality is that young people move around the country more than...
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    True, although one cannot blame them if that's...

    True, although one cannot blame them if that's where the better opportunities lie. Plus, the flip side is things such as the creation of Zone One Brass, filling a gap which the London music colleges...
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    [/COLOR] There's quite a lot of similarity...

    [/COLOR]
    There's quite a lot of similarity between a description such as this and the earlier example from Munich, despite the reasons for an all-male environment existing being so different.

    ...
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    There's a regular in our band pub, who props up...

    There's a regular in our band pub, who props up the bar and gives unsolicited advice to other customers as to which guest ales cause him digestive difficulties (I paraphrase).

    Yeah, I'm at...
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    I fully agree that quotas wouldn't be any kind of...

    I fully agree that quotas wouldn't be any kind of solution.

    I thoroughly endorse the 'education and encouragement' line, too, rather than any top-down approach. Discrimination and prejudice can...
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    This is telling: ...

    This is telling: http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/showthread.php?51496-Butlins-Entertainment&p=855270&viewfull=1#post855270

    Taking the supposed 'tounge in cheek' comments out of this thread and...
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    I want to emphasise, once again, that when we...

    I want to emphasise, once again, that when we have mentioned institutional discrimination, this is specifically not talking about deliberate attempts to discriminate.


    Correct about orchestral...
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    There's a circuitousness in this argument. ...

    There's a circuitousness in this argument.

    Ignoring the possiblity of institutional discrimination, you've assumed that women remaining as a minority in banding is due to lesser ambition. Then, on...
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    I hope you like Burger King.

    I hope you like Burger King.
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    A glass ceiling is quite possibly an indicator of...

    A glass ceiling is quite possibly an indicator of institutional discrimination, though? (Also, just because a few individuals poke holes in one doesn't mean it doesn't still exist for most others.)
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    Qualifications and credentials in brass banding,...

    Qualifications and credentials in brass banding, or in gender equality? Or do we have to have both to voice an opinion?
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    I'm not sure my education can really be described...

    I'm not sure my education can really be described as 'modern' in any way, though....
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    No, it would be a debate, one which might...

    No, it would be a debate, one which might challenge some people's preconceptions and prejudices. This seems to make you feel uncomfortable?
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