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frisp
19.03.2003, 16:52
I am currently reading Simon Schama's "A History of Britain" and came across a mention and photograph of the Cyfartha Brass Band (formed in 1838).

I was just hoping someone could recommend a good book that gives a history of the banding movement, preferably one that relates it to the political and social issues prevailing at the relevant time.

Also, do Cyfartha survive?

What is the oldest band in the country?

Thanks in advance :D

dyl
19.03.2003, 17:00
I take it you mean the Cyfarthfa Band? If so, then this might be useful:

Cyfarthfa Reborn (http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/cyfarthfa.htm)

My Band was established in 1835 but I'm sure there are many bands that were established before that.

PeterBale
19.03.2003, 17:06
The following give a useful overview of the development of brass bands in the United Kingdom:

Herbert,Trevor - Bands: The Brass Band Movement In The 19th And 20th Centuries - Open University Press, 1991 - ISBN: 0335097030
Herbert,Trevor - The British brass band a musical and social history - (Published May 2000) Oxford University Press, 2000 - ISBN: 0198166982

There was also an Open University programme about the Cyfartha band, and the recording made by The Wallace Collection of some of their repertoire using period instruments (cd The Origin of the Species)

frisp
19.03.2003, 19:22
I take it you mean the Cyfarthfa Band? If so, then this might be useful:

Cyfarthfa Reborn (http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/cyfarthfa.htm)

My Band was established in 1835 but I'm sure there are many bands that were established before that.

Sorry, dyl, about the spelling, took it straight from the book.

Thanks PB, I'll take a look when I get the chance-no I won't I'll go and order the second one now. Cheers!

HunkySteve
22.03.2003, 09:02
1835 eh? Crikey. What sort of instruments were in the band then and what was the line-up/configuration? Piston valves didnt become used until later that century I thought.

hornblower
22.03.2003, 10:24
Our band is quite old too:

Dunston Silver Band, originally known as Dunston Temperance Band, has a colourful history which can be traced back as early as 1902. However it is thought the band was in existence long before this but documented proof is hard to find. Sometime between 1902 and 1913 the band changed its name to Dunston Silver Band. In 1913 the Band performed at Crystal Palace under the direction on Mr Alf Gale of Dunston Bank

You can find out more on our website:
www.dunstonband.com

neiltwist
23.03.2003, 01:58
who's in the youngest band? I'm a founder member of durham uni's band, and current president. we've been around for just about a year now!

iancwilx
23.03.2003, 11:19
Regarding the oldest band in Britain, Kippax Band (Nr. Leeds) have proof of being in existence in 1814 - It is recorded that a Tea Party was held in 1934 to Celebrate 120 years of music making - Any advance on 189 years??
( NO - I wasn't a founder member !!!)

PeterBale
24.03.2003, 10:31
1835 eh? Crikey. What sort of instruments were in the band then and what was the line-up/configuration? Piston valves didnt become used until later that century I thought.

The following article gives a lot of information regarding the band, instrumentation etc

http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/cyfarthfa.htm

Piston valves were around from early in the 19th century - Berlioz in particular wrote for the "cornet a pistons" (literally, little horn with pistons) - but it was only following the demonstration of the saxhorns at the Great Exhibition in the 1850s that things really took off, and a number of existing bands converted to the new instruments, that were more reliable, and represented a homogenious set in various sizes.

Aidan
24.03.2003, 14:47
Besses are first mentionned in records in the year 1818, but the band had been firmly established by then so I dont know an exact date of formation... see http://www.besses.co.uk/aboutus.htm

I think I'm correct in saying that Stalybridge Old Band are the oldest band in existence

Straightmute
24.03.2003, 16:12
But most of these early bands were not all brass, but combinations of brass, wind and possibly even strings. Since this sort of group had already been in existence for centuries as army bands, church bands and city waites they aren't particularly remarkable and it's now virtually impossible to determine which was the first.

More important for us surely should be to discover which was the first group to convert to an all-brass instrumentation, and therefore by definition become the earliest brass band.

D

iancwilx
24.03.2003, 18:04
Although Kippax Band were up and running in 1814 (A year before Napoleons defeat at Waterloo !!) - they did not convert to all brass instrumentation until 1834.
If you check out the Kippax Band website "Gallery" section on www.kippaxband.co.uk there are some very interesting old photographs and historical references.

geordiecolin
24.03.2003, 18:56
The Ovington Band part of Ovington Tynedale Band can be traced back as far as 1862. The original band hall is still standing though it is a house now. The band got a good price for it when it was sold despite is dilapidated condition.

My mate's at Durham Uni and plays cornet. i'll give him a push in your direction!! although i think he knows your flugel player quite well anyways.

HunkySteve
24.03.2003, 19:58
But most of these early bands were not all brass, but combinations of brass, wind and possibly even strings. Since this sort of group had already been in existence for centuries as army bands, church bands and city waites they aren't particularly remarkable and it's now virtually impossible to determine which was the first.

More important for us surely should be to discover which was the first group to convert to an all-brass instrumentation, and therefore by definition become the earliest brass band.

D

And that, I guess, neatly encapsulates where I am coming from.

So who was the first all BRASS band broadly in the style we see today? And more interestingly, what led it to happen?

Steve

Boneman
24.03.2003, 20:15
Jackfield Band - was formed as a drum and fife band - it becamer a Brass Band in 1895. We have photos all round the band room of the band from around 1900.

There were four brothers (Hudsons) who played for the band and they can be seen from some of the earliest photos (c1920 as young boys) right up to the early 80's - an amazing record of loyalty.

PeterBale
25.03.2003, 09:15
There is very informative (if long) article by Trevor Herbert regarding the history of brass bands, entitled "Nineteenth Century Bands - making a Movement":

http://www.oup.co.uk/pdf/0-19-816698-2.pdf

One of the major spurs towards the adoption of all-brass combinations was the availability of a reliable family of instruments, particularly following Sax's invention and development of the saxhorn in the 1840s. Although demonstrated in this country by the Distin family in 1844 they came particularly to prominence when they won medals at the Great Exhibition in 1851. Shortly after that they began to be adopted by existing bands, which started to gain considerable success in contests. (I came across prevously a reference to a particular band that did this but I couldn't track it down this morning.) John Foster & Sons bought a set of instruments for the Black Dyke Band from Joseph Higham in 1855 and others seem to have changed at about the same time.

Further standardisation was encouraged as contest rules on instrumentation were introduced. Of particular interest with some of the early Alexander Owen arrangements is his use of 2 or 3 flugel horns in the band.

Al
29.03.2003, 22:11
The Open University did a programme on the Cyfarthfa Band.

Gordon Higginbottom took part in the programme and knows a fair bit of social Brass Band history. He's often over in your neck of the woods Frisp, have a pint with him sometime.

HBB
29.03.2003, 22:54
It's a shame that Goff Richards told me that he has retired from playing and is living in Spain, isn't it! But I s'pose in this day and age you could have a cyber-pint!! :D

Can't blame me for not trying :D

Al
30.03.2003, 02:38
Apparently Gordon Higginbottom visits the Isle of Wight a couple of times a year, where Frisp comes from.

Roger Thorne
30.03.2003, 08:54
If this is going in the direction of 'Where do we go for our holidays when we're not at band', could we start another topic please. . . .

:wink:

frisp
31.03.2003, 21:56
Apparently Gordon Higginbottom visits the Isle of Wight a couple of times a year, where Frisp comes from.

It's the Isle of Man...and he was un-retired enough to conduct Douglas Town Band in Blackpool :shock:

The Judge
01.04.2003, 11:39
It's the Isle of Man...and he was un-retired enough to conduct Douglas Town Band in Blackpool :shock:



Maybe he's just trying to convince himself that he should retire !! :wink:

Al
05.04.2003, 10:39
A bit offensive that Shim, and I reckon out of keeping with the general atmosphere of the Mouthpiece forum. Are you folk from the Isle of Man not taught what respect is?

manx_yessir
05.04.2003, 19:19
A bit offensive that Shim, and I reckon out of keeping with the general atmosphere of the Mouthpiece forum. Are you folk from the Isle of Man not taught what respect is?

MOST of us from the Isle of Man have respect Al, it's just a few that let us down :roll: :hammer

neiltwist
06.04.2003, 16:33
sounded like a joke to me!

BoozyBTrom
07.04.2003, 09:13
who's in the youngest band? I'm a founder member of durham uni's band, and current president. we've been around for just about a year now!

I would reckon it would be Lockwood Brass from Cleveland. The formed around September last year.

WhatSharp?
07.04.2003, 12:03
Yeiwsley & West Drayton band go back to 1890 (not bad for a london band!). If you want more have a look at http://www.ywdband.com/history.html

HBB
07.04.2003, 21:30
Steve

on our forum you pick up on my spelling ......


I think that you better propose to the band that our new name is the

Yeiwsley and West Drayton Brass Band

and the concil for that matter!

"I after E, except after C!!"

The Judge
07.04.2003, 21:49
A bit offensive that Shim, and I reckon out of keeping with the general atmosphere of the Mouthpiece forum. Are you folk from the Isle of Man not taught what respect is?


I think you'll find that, like neil who commented also, this was meant as a humourous aside and not as some sort of disrespectful rant. Please don't take a sense of humour the wrong way.

The Judge
07.04.2003, 21:53
A bit offensive that Shim, and I reckon out of keeping with the general atmosphere of the Mouthpiece forum. Are you folk from the Isle of Man not taught what respect is?

MOST of us from the Isle of Man have respect Al, it's just a few that let us down :roll: :hammer


The above goes for you as well. Please don't mistake a humourous comment for a lack of respect.

frisp
09.04.2003, 14:19
A bit offensive that Shim, and I reckon out of keeping with the general atmosphere of the Mouthpiece forum. Are you folk from the Isle of Man not taught what respect is?

I try not to get annoyed by things posted on boards but sometimes it happens :oops:

Now that I am, I'd like to make a couple of points:-

1) The Judge made a joke, not a good joke, but just a joke. I think the 'winking' emoticon was a clue...

2) The moderators decide what is acceptable in this forum-we all have our views but why not just pm The Judge (if something he said is perceived as offensive) ?

3) Your rhetorical question could actually cause offence to the people who live on the Island

4) If TJ wanted to use his name on here he would. Could it be that Al using a name that identifies him is disrespecting him?

I'm hoping that Al's response was posted with his tongue firmly stuck in his cheek....'cos then I won't have to try and find 'Respect' classes here on the Isle of Man :)

(..and just so things are completely clear, yes The Judge and I are in the same band, and, yes, we're friends-but that's really not the point!)

frisp
09.04.2003, 14:27
The following give a useful overview of the development of brass bands in the United Kingdom:

Herbert,Trevor - Bands: The Brass Band Movement In The 19th And 20th Centuries - Open University Press, 1991 - ISBN: 0335097030
Herbert,Trevor - The British brass band a musical and social history - (Published May 2000) Oxford University Press, 2000 - ISBN: 0198166982

There was also an Open University programme about the Cyfartha band, and the recording made by The Wallace Collection of some of their repertoire using period instruments (cd The Origin of the Species)

...and to get back on thread

Peter-I got the Musical and Social History and very interesting reading it is too! Thanks for the advice. Might even get The Brass Band Movement etc. when I've finished, but not if it costs the same as the first one :D

HBB
09.04.2003, 18:42
A bit offensive that Shim, and I reckon out of keeping with the general atmosphere of the Mouthpiece forum. Are you folk from the Isle of Man not taught what respect is?

MOST of us from the Isle of Man have respect Al, it's just a few that let us down :roll: :hammer


The above goes for you as well. Please don't mistake a humourous comment for a lack of respect.

I only think that he was trying to find a lighter point --- we don't want to be 'bogged' down by really critising posts. I think that it was a joke (i make enough of them!) and I think that it has blown out of control ........ I think that you should try and show and inviting and funny side when on forums .... and if you are always totally serious no-one can be bothered to read it, this goes for snappy posts to 'jokes'

thats wot i think anyway! :D

The Judge
09.04.2003, 20:57
My oh my - what a big furore from such a small joke. Maybe sometimes we forget why we all joined this forum - for an exchange of information and views on what we all hold dear - banding.

And in banding, along with any walk of life, I see humour as a huge benefit to morale(ask anyone in MCB or who works with me how long they would last if they didn't have a sense of humour). Wouldn't it be dull if we were serious all of the time. My humour is well known amongst those who know me, which is perhaps why someone who doesn't know me has taken exception to one of my comments.

What isn't funny, however, is questioning the respect of a nation. Many of my colleagues are not very happy with that accusation. :evil:


Are you folk from the Isle of Man not taught what respect is?

However, let's move on, chill out 8) and keep laughing. Life's too short to be dull and boring. :D

Now - back to the thread......

manx_yessir
09.04.2003, 21:13
Oh b*gg*r!! :oops: my reply to The Judge's comments were only said in jest..Honest!
As you've gathered i'm from Isle of Man (now exiled in Leeds) and am a former member of Douglas Town Band...and have enjoyed much banter with Manx Concert for years...not least from my brother (steve g) who is a player there!
Anyway..it was just a jokey comment...on rereading it it probably doesnt look like it so i'm SORRY :D
I'd get back to topic....but i can't remamber what it was! :roll:

frisp
09.04.2003, 21:29
Al's quiet tho'....