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EIBB_Ray
12.03.2003, 21:05
Okay, please retrieve your minds from the gutter.

Here in the states, it's somewhat the norm not to start wind instrument lessons with kids until 4th or 5th grades (9 or 10 years old.) I have a son who's one year old tomorrow and he's been helping practice (by pushing down the third valve for me so I can play G-A, G-A over and over for hours, and by reaching for the bell to see where the sound comes from.) Anyway, the question is how young did you start playing brass and how young would you start a child? Any thoughts on better instruments to start with? Any do's/don'ts for young kids?

geordiecolin
13.03.2003, 00:01
You use the alternative fingering? 3 as opposed to 1+2?

I started when i was still at first school, at the age of about 6. on trumpet, before progressing to cornet and then bass.

I think all kids should learn recorder at first cos its easy to pick up and teaches the basics well

You wanna blow my what?
13.03.2003, 00:06
Back in my first band, they wouldn't let kids start until their front teeth grew through properly, which malkes sense really. This is normally age 7 :) well in my case it was!

super_sop
13.03.2003, 00:38
hi ther do you read minds i was just thinking of startinfg a similar thread bcose i would like my daughter to start playing, shes been comming to band with me since she weas 6 mths!!!
she seems to enjoy her self so was thinking of giving her a mouthpiece to use., just to get her used to blowing. any way ill b keepin an i out on this for ideas
cheers dude :lol:

Singapore Northern Lass
13.03.2003, 02:49
she seems to enjoy her self so was thinking of giving her a mouthpiece to use., just to get her used to blowing. any way ill b keepin an i out on this for ideas
cheers dude :lol:

Hi Super Sop

:idea: When you give her the mouthpiece, put it in a mute so she has something else to hold on to, a stonelined one works best for little hands, good luck, :D

Sarahjo
13.03.2003, 10:54
My four year old daughter is dying to learn, but we are waiting untill her frount teeth are through properly. She does have a cornet that she toots on when ever she fancies but we are not seriously teaching her yet.

Hasn't got the concentration yet anyway!!!! :lol: 8)

picju96
13.03.2003, 11:29
I started when I was 9 in primary school, didn't have a chance then before that, and couldn't have been introduced by any of my family coz none of them play.

YorkshirePudding
13.03.2003, 11:32
I honestly beleive that in most cases it is not mutually beneficial for kids or band for kids to start before they are about 10. I know this seems late but hear me out.
In our training band I have seen 5-7 year olds kids start who have been coming every week for several years and they have made some slow progress but very limited.
When a 10 - 12 year old starts (or an adult come to that) they seem to rapidly advance. Within 3 months they have overtaken the younger ones who have been there years.
Aha you say! But after several years the 5 - 7 year olds will be the same age as the 10 - 12 year olds and with their greater experience surely they will be much better and progress quicker. Well in our training bands experience that is not the case. Apart from the odd brilliant exception the youngsters seem to sink into a mediocre level of expectation and performance whereas the ones starting later seem to get excited and are more motivated to better themselves.

This presents training bands with a huge headache. You get the later starting improvers and adults itching to play proper adult stuff and getting bored of the kiddy stuff. Meanwhile the younger ones are intimidated by the more challenging stuff and dont want to move on. The end result is you get people leaving at either end of the spectrum.

Our band has a training/training band but you get the same problems there too. We have a very generous policy that we accept anybody and will give tuition no matter what the age. But this does present problems.
All this could be solved by parents realising that it is sometimes counter productive to push their kids too soon. You will not miss the boat. If they have it in them they will still blossom at a more reasonable age.

Nat
13.03.2003, 15:59
i was nearly six when i started playing

satchmo shaz
13.03.2003, 16:16
My four year old daughter is dying to learn, but we are waiting untill her frount teeth are through properly. She does have a cornet that she toots on when ever she fancies but we are not seriously teaching her yet.

Hasn't got the concentration yet anyway!!!! :lol: 8)thats spot on in my book, let them have a toot, then when they want to start properly let them! my son was dying to learn at age 6 so we let him, we just eased off when his teety were coming thru

Brian
13.03.2003, 16:22
I honestly beleive that in most cases it is not mutually beneficial for kids or band for kids to start before they are about 10. I know this seems late but hear me out.
In our training band I have seen 5-7 year olds kids start who have been coming every week for several years and they have made some slow progress but very limited.
When a 10 - 12 year old starts (or an adult come to that) they seem to rapidly advance. Within 3 months they have overtaken the younger ones who have been there years.
Aha you say! But after several years the 5 - 7 year olds will be the same age as the 10 - 12 year olds and with their greater experience surely they will be much better and progress quicker. Well in our training bands experience that is not the case. Apart from the odd brilliant exception the youngsters seem to sink into a mediocre level of expectation and performance whereas the ones starting later seem to get excited and are more motivated to better themselves.

This presents training bands with a huge headache. You get the later starting improvers and adults itching to play proper adult stuff and getting bored of the kiddy stuff. Meanwhile the younger ones are intimidated by the more challenging stuff and dont want to move on. The end result is you get people leaving at either end of the spectrum.

Our band has a training/training band but you get the same problems there too. We have a very generous policy that we accept anybody and will give tuition no matter what the age. But this does present problems.
All this could be solved by parents realising that it is sometimes counter productive to push their kids too soon. You will not miss the boat. If they have it in them they will still blossom at a more reasonable age.

Take a look at Shirland Training Band, and their Junior Band, they are playing in Solo Contest at 5 and 6 yrs old Brian

satchmo shaz
13.03.2003, 16:25
it hasn't done them any harm has it Brian? :wink: my kids were 6 and 7 when you adjudicated them....... they both got prizes and lovely comments for young kids! :)

Brian
13.03.2003, 16:34
it hasn't done them any harm has it Brian? :wink: my kids were 6 and 7 when you adjudicated them....... they both got prizes and lovely comments for young kids! :)

Good evening Sharon, O good afternoon....I teach kids in Thailand at 6yrs old in School...All pupils at 7 are taught either woodwind, brass,guitar,percussion or piano, and this is an American International School, so as with full Band rehearsals it's all done during the school day.
Just finished downloading Coda Finale 2003 into my computer, so my Scores and Parts will be really good,and neat, although I need a midi interface so I can use a keyboard to play it all in...doing it manually is mind bending....

Keppler
13.03.2003, 16:35
Too Young = any younger then your teachers can manage..

Like most bands, our members volunteer to teach the training classes.. We start them at 8, and are considering dropping it to 7..
However, if I asked them to take 5 and 6 year olds, I'm not sure we'd be able to manage them (lack of experience - most of us being 20-odd non-parents)

Three rules in our band:
1) Keep the kids happy.
2) Keep the teachers happy.
3) Keep everyone else happy.

It's worked so far..

Straightmute
13.03.2003, 16:57
My five year old son has just told me he wants to learn to play the cornet. (He already has access to a recorder and lots of percussion, and he 'plays' the piano from time to time). So I've got an old cornet for him to try. They'll be no pressure, only guidance on embouchure and production. It will be interesting to see how he gets on.

Of course, he really wants to be a conductor.

D

super_sop
13.03.2003, 17:03
she seems to enjoy her self so was thinking of giving her a mouthpiece to use., just to get her used to blowing. any way ill b keepin an i out on this for ideas
cheers dude :lol:

Hi Super Sop

:idea: When you give her the mouthpiece, put it in a mute so she has something else to hold on to, a stonelined one works best for little hands, good luck, :D
xcellent idea ill try that 1.
cheers
:lol:

hornblower
13.03.2003, 17:18
I learnt recorder at primary school... but started on the tenor horn at 11, think it depends on when children show an interest and if they come from a musical background....

Aidan
13.03.2003, 17:48
yeah i did a bit of the old recorder in primary school too.
Started a bit of piano near the end of primary school, but only took horn up about 6 years ago when i was 12/13. So im a bit of a late starter i spose for my age.
I know many people recommend not starting kids playing instruments until a certain age, but many of the famous players and soloists of today took their instruments up from a very early age (like 2 or 3 years old!)

twigglet
13.03.2003, 18:36
I started piano and recorder at 6 and then stumbled across the now infamous (thanks to Roger) Wem Jubilee Band at the age of 8. I think that is an ideal age to start playing as your teeth have pretty much sorted themselves out by then and plus now it feels as if I grew up in the band, they are pretty much like my second family!

But I think much younger than 7 is not a good idea because of teeth falling out, learning with one mouth position and then having to change it is a lot of hard work.

:lol:

cornetgirl
13.03.2003, 20:08
Ok, I'm just putting on my professional hat on for a sec...

From my point of view, the best time to start a brass instrument is around the age of eight, once the permanent incisors have fully erupted into the mouth - ie 4 at the top and 4 at the bottom. Give them chance to settle into position then go for it!

Of course, everyone develops differently and at different times so the age isn't set in stone, but by waiting it gives you less problems on the embouchure front and reduces the need for braces etc in future years which have been covered elsewhere on the forum.

I started recorder when I was 5 and flute when I was 6, didn't really blow a cornet properly until I was 15!

Rach x

Fishsta
14.03.2003, 02:01
Here's me when I first played a brass instrument.

http://www.fishsta.co.uk/yian08.jpg

Although I only really started learning about 5 years later. At the age of 10 and a bit.

Singapore Northern Lass
14.03.2003, 02:11
:) Aaaaahhh! You were so cute Fishsta, what happened to turn you into the Terminator????? :shock:

Aidan
14.03.2003, 13:30
james cameron presumably...

dyl
14.03.2003, 14:27
james cameron presumably...

Or Linda Hamilton! ;)

EIBB_Ray
14.03.2003, 18:01
You use the alternative fingering? 3 as opposed to 1+2?



I do when sitting on the floor letting a one year old push valves. :wink:

EIBB_Ray
14.03.2003, 21:20
Thanks for all the nifty input everybody. I hadn't thought about the permanent teeth issue (which is odd since I'm wearing braces on my own teeth now.)

We don't have a lot of really young training band opportunities around here, mostly school is their first chance for a band/orchestra situation. So I'd really just be looking at his playing for his own enjoyment. So, does everyone thing cornet is a good choice for "playing around with?" Seems like that's most people's experience (Fishta excepted.) I suppose it's the easiet for a little person to hold etc.

frisp
14.03.2003, 21:31
So, does everyone thing cornet is a good choice for "playing around with?"

I'd go for tenor horn-small enough to hold and easy enough to change from (if they want to) when he/she really starts playing :?

(I only started playing when I was 13. Tenor horn then, BBb Bass now)

geordiecolin
15.03.2003, 01:59
With regards to training bands, we set one up and this bloke came along interested in playing Bass. He had managed to grab one for free when sheffield city council schools chucked out old stock.. and i mean chucked out. it came from a skip!!

Anyhow, 6 months later he is in main band. 2 months later he plays his first contest and and 1 1/2 years after first blowing a bass, he plays his first area, and has me, the other EEb Bass player runing very very scared. If his progress continues like it is i'll be sacked or he'll be playing championship section!!! :shock:

Wen you get homegrown talent like that it makes all the pre-rehearsal time spent with the young and not so young un's sooo worthwhile! When someone takes the time to say "thanks for coming to help out, you playing along has given me loads of confidence and helps my playing" you feel very humbled! :oops:

satchmo shaz
15.03.2003, 09:31
yes, I know many parents who started playing to help out their kids and they have ended up good players themselves! the oldest player I have taught was 70 at the time! he has gone on to teach kids himself and still plays 2nd cornet with a local non contesting band! he will be 80 in August! :wink:

sparkling_quavers
15.03.2003, 17:12
With regards to training bands, we set one up and this bloke came along interested in playing Bass. He had managed to grab one for free when sheffield city council schools chucked out old stock.. and i mean chucked out. it came from a skip!!

Anyhow, 6 months later he is in main band. 2 months later he plays his first contest and and 1 1/2 years after first blowing a bass, he plays his first area, and has me, the other EEb Bass player runing very very scared. If his progress continues like it is i'll be sacked or he'll be playing championship section!!! :shock:

Wen you get homegrown talent like that it makes all the pre-rehearsal time spent with the young and not so young un's sooo worthwhile! When someone takes the time to say "thanks for coming to help out, you playing along has given me loads of confidence and helps my playing" you feel very humbled! :oops:

and he's such a lovely bloke too! :oops:

um_chuck
16.03.2003, 20:47
i've just started back into brass banding now my daughter has turned 4 years. Every time i practise she wants a turn at blowing a note or pressing the valves. she keeps changing her mind each week about which instrument she wants to play when she gets older. im waiting a bit, at least a couple of years for her teeth before proper lessons. :)

sparkling_quavers
16.03.2003, 22:02
Every time i practise she wants a turn at blowing a note or pressing the valves. :)

everytime? she plays more than you do Annette :lol:

WhatSharp?
17.03.2003, 14:45
My eight year old son has been bugging me for the last 2-3 years to learn cornet. I took the advice of a friend whos a teacher and she advised waiting until the second set of teeth had come through. Well he is just about to start though I've really struggled to find a teacher, in the end I found a local band that have a training school, which is good since it gives him something to aim for. Unfortunatley a scenario you find more and more these days is that the schools aren' t interested in music and the local education authorities are even worse!. Unless more than 4 kids want to learn the same instrument you can forget it. So it seems that its up to the brass bands themselves to make sure they teach and train kids (just like the old days eh!).

You wanna blow my what?
17.03.2003, 21:24
I took the advice of a friend whos a teacher and she advised waiting until the second set of teeth had come through.

The whole set? Mine didn't finish coming through until I was 16.

HBB
17.03.2003, 21:40
With all due respect Chris, you are kinda barmy :D:D:D

You wanna blow my what?
17.03.2003, 21:52
I try :D

WhatSharp?
18.03.2003, 08:49
The whole set? Mine didn't finish coming through until I was 16.

No just the front ones. Sorry I should have been more precise :D

yorkie19
18.03.2003, 11:22
Of course, he really wants to be a conductor.

D

David,

He'll have to wait until 18 to achieve that aim then, as he'll need excess amounts of alcohol to erode the brain cells before he starts wagging.

Congratulations, by the way, on your result at the weekend.



I started playing soprano cornet when I was about 7 in my dad's youth band. It's been a downward spiral since then.

Sam
Bb bass Imps

um_chuck
18.03.2003, 21:02
thats true rach :lol:

HBB
18.03.2003, 21:48
The whole set? Mine didn't finish coming through until I was 16.

No just the front ones. Sorry I should have been more precise :D


In you're message or playing ..... or both for you :D:D:D

picju96
19.03.2003, 16:34
Quote from 4BR- 'Hannah Evans won the Youngest Musician in the whole festival at the grand old age of 4 years'!!!

Now that's a bit excessive isn't it, after reading this thread!

Okiedokie of Oz
16.11.2003, 13:44
THis is a bit old, but I think we've neglected to look at something. Although, I'll be quite honest in admitting I never considered the teeth formation :oops:

I teach Instrumental Music in the Catholic Schools here, but I was a student, and hope to be a teacher, in the Government system. In the State system, they stake woodwind, brass and percussion students in grade 5 **counts on his fingers**, aged 9-10. Sometimes we make exceptions (I had a mate learn baritone age 7), but that's what the system is set to cope with.

Where I work however, we start one year younger. Now don't get me wrong. The kids love their music, they try their hardest, but some things they just don't seem to get. It's maturity!

At university, we learn Piaget's theorm of education. Basically, he says how we learn and what we learn is relative to our live's experiences. Now how many experiences are you going to have aged 8?

Also, in the Catholic system, in order to keep the numbers up, we do take beginners from older grades, although the State system tries very hard to avoid it. Now when you compare the progress of an older beginner to a younger one, it's chalk and cheese. An example, one of my first flute :oops: students was a grade 7 girl. She started because the opportunity had finally arrived for her to lean, and her best friend, another student, also played flute. She started with the beginners of the year, learning as they learned, what they learned. After a while, she took off, mastering the skills quicker, until she caught up to, and surpassed/i] her friend! Her friend had 3 and a half years of experience behind her, yet my beginner found that standard easy to reach.

Now admittedly, she may have been very motivated at home to keep the practise up, but is this always the case? because this wasn't the only student I've known like this.

Also, in regards to the grade 4 learners, the girls are [i]always more advanced than the boys.

I have also had 2 students younger. I had a 6 year old trumpet player, and a 7 year old trombonist. While both students do work VERY hard, their brains aren't quite ready for the amount of work involved in playing an instrument.


God, now I'm paranoid about my student's dental work!!!!!

Jo Elson
16.11.2003, 21:09
As someone has already mentioned I think the recorder is a good place to start. Thats how I started in music when I started Primary School, and that just taught me how to read music which is always a good start (And it meant I got to miss assembly!). Then at 7 I started the piano (my teacher wouldn't accept people under the age of 7), and 8 I started on the cornet.

Vickitorious
16.11.2003, 23:51
I played the recorder when I was 5 or 6 I think? :? and then moved onto flute for 2 years I never wanted to be a brass player until my mums conductor gave me a horn, so I started playing when I was 9, but the other day someone asked me when I started playing and I told them and they asked me why I had started so late. I do know people who have been playing since they were 3 though, but I think that any age is good really, if you have the interest!! :D

sharpnote
17.11.2003, 00:47
Can't remember when I started! I was that young! :lol:

shedophone
17.11.2003, 23:49
The answer is simple- giv'em a pair of sticks!
You're never too young to learn percussion, and once kids have been in the band environment for a while they'll be better prepared to learn a brass instrument (- if they want to! Hopefully that way more kids will start learning percussion- and never stop!)
Apart from that i cant say a lot, apart from i dont think learning at an older age is a bad thing either- i took up the euph september last year having never played a brass instrument before, and took my grade 6 at easter.