PDA

View Full Version : Brass band members targeted with 'abusive' tweets



Bungle
26.01.2012, 13:56
Just seen this on BBC website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-16726674) appalling.

YRBBC
26.01.2012, 14:21
Totally agree. Let's hope the police use their powers and the persons responsible are brought to book. They may be in the minority but we don't need them and there is no excuse like "it was just a bit of fun" the persons responsible know exactly what they are doing. They are a disgrace to the banding movement and the bands they are connected to - they deserve to be sacked.


Please note I am expressing my personal views and not the views of the regional committee.


P.

Cornishwomble
26.01.2012, 14:28
Having read the tweets, i agree it got out of hand and would not defend them in anyway

However i hope this debate doesnt go into "Daily Mail" mode with people who never saw any of them professing how offended and disgusted they were without having first hand exposure to them

tubafran
26.01.2012, 14:33
The Twitter account and Facebook page have both been removed as of Monday - they had something less than 200 twitter followers, not sure how many on Facebook

Oh and no connection with what was written

The Wherryman
26.01.2012, 14:39
This was reported on 4br (http://www.4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=14568) three days ago. The BBC is just catching up. It's such a pity the Beeb didn't balance their report with the more positive side of the contest, great music, camaraderie etc. Unfortunately, good news isn't good news.

Cornishwomble
26.01.2012, 14:41
Think a quiet message to them at the time saying they were being monitored and that the tweets were offending and a warning them that further action would be taken if they continued would have sufficed

Wonder how much of this is also certain people/organisations trying to get publicity and media exposure on the back of it

YRBBC
26.01.2012, 14:50
The Twitter account and Facebook page have both been removed as of Monday - they had something less than 200 twitter followers, not sure how many on Facebook

Oh and no connection with what was written

I heard about this on Monday and you can rest assured your name wasn't mentioned.

I asked the question "Why do it in the first place" - someone was bound to pick up on it and I find it so sad that those responsible don't have the forethought to think how it reflects on them, the movement and what the band they play for may think.

P

Flumpet
26.01.2012, 15:07
I saw most of the tweets as they were happening live, and I have to say that some of them were dreadful! I can see that whilst they were probably intended as "a bit of fun/having a laugh" they did overstep the line and the language used was so offensive!!

I have also (through the grapevine) heard that one or more people were involved, and that these people involved actually play in some of the country's most prolific bands...if this is true then shame on them and I hope they get "asked to leave" as it surely brings the name of their band down into the gutter along with their own name

ploughboy
26.01.2012, 15:08
Think a quiet message to them at the time saying they were being monitored and that the tweets were offending and a warning them that further action would be taken if they continued would have sufficed

Wonder how much of this is also certain people/organisations trying to get publicity and media exposure on the back of it

One of them was pulled to one side by Stan to my knowledge and warned - didn't do any good as it carried on the next day!

It seems strange to me, the guys that are doing it seem to think they are "cool" bandsmen and the rest of us are not! And they set out to poke fun at us enjoying a contest and the weekend! Wallies, as Peggy says, I would be considering my position if I were band manager and they played in my team colours!

Ysl641
26.01.2012, 15:44
Not condoning anything, as some of the comments were way way too far, but I've been offended with some comments 4barsrest have made in the past in their live updates of contests. Covering all things from racist and homophobic, to overtly sexual and offensive to indivuduals concerned. This isn't a dig at 4barsrest, but if they are going to so closely scrutinize what others write, shouldn't they be doing the same?

It does seem as if this could, and should have been nipped in the bud rather than being put forward into the public domain as a witch-hunt to whoever was posting these things, and more to the point, actually drawing negative mass media attention to something which had less than 200 twitter followers?! If a person was warned and it carried on, then who's to say that person was responsible, unless they were really stupid. Even the article on the BBC website states:

"A spokesperson for Butlin's said the person they thought was responsible was dealt with by competition organisers at the time"

I think 'thought' should be the important word.

I do think that a sacking from a band is a bit extreme, there was a lot of people commenting on the posts, re-tweeting the posts and actually viewing them as a positive thing, are they all to be sacked as well?

High profile banding for me is no different to any other banding. It is a cultural, and social activity that people at any level do and enjoy, which, disgracefully, get's absolutely no exposure in the wider world. To put the issue of a problem into the wider world to be picked up on by anyone who views the BBC website is far worse for the perception of brass banding than something that was done to an audience of less than 200.

Just my opinion obviously, but this really does have potential as someone has already said, to go very Daily Mail and lose sight of just how significant a thing it actually was. My perception is it is being blown totally out of proportion, and that for me is the most damaging thing for the movement.

agentorange
26.01.2012, 16:00
Wonder how much of this is also certain people/organisations trying to get publicity and media exposure on the back of it

Roy, I suspect this is a large part of it.

It seem's that I must have been one of the few that wasn't offended! Yes, the tweets were in bad taste, and the language was coarse but they were quite obviously tongue in cheek, and not to be taken seriously. I never met anyone all weekend who'd read them that didn't find them amusing. Comedians such as Chubby Brown and Frankie Boyle have made a living from similar types of comment, yet this is accepted (if not enjoyed) by everyone. To me certain people/organisations are making a mountain out of a molehill. No one was forced to follow the comments on twitter. Those involved should perhaps think twice about posting similar comments in future, but Police involvement - GET A GRIP! There are far worse things in the world than a few jokes made in bad taste and far more important things for the police to be investigating than this.

valveman
26.01.2012, 16:09
I do think that a sacking from a band is a bit extreme, there was a lot of people commenting on the posts, re-tweeting the posts and actually viewing them as a positive thing, are they all to be sacked as well?

You can hardly sack someone for following it?? I was one of those that followed it at the start of the day but only saw the first couple of tweets, i unfollowed when i came back at the end of work to see the more abusive tweets. I think people retweeting are as bad.


High profile banding for me is no different to any other banding. It is a cultural, and social activity that people at any level do and enjoy, which, disgracefully, get's absolutely no exposure in the wider world. To put the issue of a problem into the wider world to be picked up on by anyone who views the BBC website is far worse for the perception of brass banding than something that was done to an audience of less than 200.

I agree and disagree, how many quiet words do people need to start behaving and giving other band members respect. There used to be healthy rivalry between bands but now it seems quite nasty and vindictive.


Just my opinion obviously, but this really does have potential as someone has already said, to go very Daily Mail and lose sight of just how significant a thing it actually was. My perception is it is being blown totally out of proportion, and that for me is the most damaging thing for the movement.

Try being one of the people they were talking about in the awards and see how out of proportion it is then. What if you job was in teaching, especially small children and then you receive a fictitious award for sexually abusing children.

The Wherryman
26.01.2012, 16:11
It does seem as if this could, and should have been nipped in the bud rather than being put forward into the public domain as a witch-hunt to whoever was posting these things, and more to the point, actually drawing negative mass media attention to something which had less than 200 twitter followers?! I don't use twitter, but my understanding is that any 'tweets' are automatically in the public domain, inasmuch that anyone who logs into twitter can read them (unless the tweets have been made private, which doesn't seem to be the case here). It is not necessary to be a 'follower' to be able to read the tweets, so the suggestion that only 200 people read them would seem to be incorrect.

davejenkins
26.01.2012, 16:13
I agree with the "get a grip" sentiment of Agent Orange. What was a shame for me was the lack of independent and sensible comments and observations of the days' events on Twitter. We either had the dogmatic, often irritating, but at least sometimes informative, tweets from 4br, or the ridiculous, immature outbursts of you-know-who. Although I didn't see anything racist or homophobic on there, I did find the language used totally unnecessary. I think that references to people's size is offensive, I did see that.

So whilst the whole thing has been blown well and truly out of proportion, I do think that the fool(s) who were involved in the closed Twitter account should take a long, hard look at themselves and do some growing up.

Alyn James
26.01.2012, 16:23
The fools who did this (I saw the tweets) are nowhere near as funny or as clever as they think they are. The world-class bands they represent would be better off without these infantile clowns.

The Wherryman
26.01.2012, 16:25
It seem's that I must have been one of the few that wasn't offended! Yes, the tweets were in bad taste, and the language was coarse but they were quite obviously tongue in cheek, and not to be taken seriously. I never met anyone all weekend who'd read them that didn't find them amusing. Did you speak to the people about whom the remarks were made? It's very easy to trivialise such things when you're not the target.

agentorange
26.01.2012, 16:31
Wherryman, I shared a room with one of the 'victims' and can confirm that he took the comments in the spirit that they were intended - a bit of harmless fun.

Ysl641
26.01.2012, 16:32
My point is how many people would be searching for the comments, even if they were completely in the public domain, in comparison to how many people will see the story on the BBC news website.

I also think that whoever was concerned needs to look at their actions, however a public flogging really isn't entirely fair is it? What ever happened to being able to accept you've done wrong, give a SINCERE apology and being allowed to make amends?

I didn't say for following it, I said for commenting, re-tweeting, and viewing in a positive light (by which I should have been more specific and said commenting on in a positive light, I don't think anybody should be sacked, posters or re-tweeters)

I know some of the people who the awards were named after. Maybe they took them in the context that they were put across? (Although the mention of paedophilia was for me, the one thing that was completely out of order and to be fair, for me that should be the focus of where attention is driven rather than for bad language, coarse comments and divisive humour)

My main point was, and is, the fact that something which happened and a small number knew about has been put into the public domain, and the reasons why I can't fathom. That for me, is the really damaging aspect for the movement.

BigHorn
26.01.2012, 16:52
GET A GRIP! There are far worse things in the world than a few jokes made in bad taste and far more important things for the police to be investigating than this.


My thoughts exactly. No doubt a bit of a lark that has backfired. I actually feel sorry for the culprit !! He/she will now be suffering far more anguish than the 'victims' - most of who would have been unaware of the tweets.

The Wherryman
26.01.2012, 17:01
My main point was, and is, the fact that something which happened and a small number knew about has been put into the public domain, and the reasons why I can't fathom. That for me, is the really damaging aspect for the movement.Yep, that's the answer. Something very unsavoury happens, so we blame the whistle-blower.

JimboFB
26.01.2012, 17:12
Thing i dont get is when apparently challenged by one of the organisers about it, the guilty party(ies) denied all knowledge?

If you've got the nerve to write it, then be brave enough to admit it.

Whether you love him or hate him, Iwan doesnt hide behind a fake ID.

Ysl641
26.01.2012, 17:13
Very unsavoury in your opinion. It used humour and language which is very divisive, this is apparent in everyday life all of the time. As I previously said I have found things in 4barsrest's own live comments to be bad taste, personal, homophobic, racist and needless, much as others will have, and people will have done with this scenario as well as countless others!
I'm not blaming anybody, all I'm saying is, the fact that a contained event being brought to considerably wider attention is more damaging, in my opinion.
I don't profess to be the definitive answer on this, so I don't understand why your tone had to be so condescending?

Ysl641
26.01.2012, 17:14
Thing i dont get is when apparently challenged by one of the organisers about it, the guilty party(ies) denied all knowledge?

If you've got the nerve to write it, then be brave enough to admit it.

Whether you love him or hate him, Iwan doesnt hide behind a fake ID.

Unless that person wasn't guilty of course?

MissBraz
26.01.2012, 17:44
I just think its very sad the little exposure the brass band movement is limited as it is and then this gets to the beeb... Also who ever did it would they sit in a room with the people they spoke about and say It too their face..? If not why do it behind technology. That's a little cowardly.

The Wherryman
26.01.2012, 18:04
Very unsavoury in your opinion.Not just my opinion.

These are quotes from the BBC and 4br articles and other tMP members:

"One comment suggested a male musician had received an award for sexually abusing children, while a percussionist was compared to Adolf Hitler."

"Other tweets have been described as racist, sexist and homophobic."

"One of the euphonium players was described as looking like "a serial rapist"."

"Another comment compared the competition to being like the Auschwitz concentration camp."


... I have to say that some of them were dreadful!...they did overstep the line and the language used was so offensive!!

Try being one of the people they were talking about in the awards and see how out of proportion it is then. What if you job was in teaching, especially small children and then you receive a fictitious award for sexually abusing children.

...I did find the language used totally unnecessary. I think that references to people's size is offensive...

...(Although the mention of paedophilia was for me, the one thing that was completely out of order and to be fair, for me that should be the focus of where attention is driven... )

Finally,


I don't profess to be the definitive answer on this, so I don't understand why your tone had to be so condescending?Please accept my apologies. I didn't mean to sound condescending. I was short of time and submitted a very brief response. I have now taken a bit more time to put my thoughts together.

You clearly have the advantage of me, I haven't read any of the tweets, only the reports on the BBC, 4br and tMP and I have tried to keep my comments general.

However, I still regard the culprit(s) as being culpable and, whatever the reason may be for 4br bringing this to attention, this is a type of behaviour that needs stopping before an apparent lack of action is perceived by those who would indulge in it as being a tacit seal of approval. I hardly think that turning this into an attack on 4br is productive in that respect. There is already another thread running for that.

Leyfy
26.01.2012, 18:14
I read all of the tweets, as someone I know (who is connected to a top band in the north) retweeted a comment linked to someone I know personally, and then I clicked on the the user to get the whole story. I didn't 'follow' them though, so there is definitely more than 200 people who saw them!

I found some of the comments offensive, and some of them funny. However, I wouldn't want my band (which is the band of nowhere at the moment) associated with the comments that were made as I can see why some people would find them offensive. I remember commenting to Essex Elvis as I read them that it yet another person making personal comments and hiding behind the mask of the internet. It's been said before on this thread, but at least 4barsrest are brave enough to put names to comments.

needmorevodka
26.01.2012, 18:15
However, I still regard the culprit(s) as being culpable and, whatever the reason may be for 4br bringing this to attention, this is a type of behaviour that needs stopping before an apparent lack of action is perceived by those who would indulge in it as being a tacit seal of approval. I hardly think that turning this into an attack on 4br is productive in that respect. There is already another thread running for that.

I agree. I support 4br in bringing this to attention, and if it has brought more negativity to the image of brass banding then so be it, whoever was behind it should have thought about that beforehand. I've seen some of those tweets, (and comments and retweets by people I hoped would know better) and I have to say I would've been very hurt to find myself on the receiving end.

Uncle Bryn
26.01.2012, 19:54
Roy, I suspect this is a large part of it.

It seem's that I must have been one of the few that wasn't offended! Yes, the tweets were in bad taste, and the language was coarse but they were quite obviously tongue in cheek, and not to be taken seriously. I never met anyone all weekend who'd read them that didn't find them amusing. Comedians such as Chubby Brown and Frankie Boyle have made a living from similar types of comment, yet this is accepted (if not enjoyed) by everyone. To me certain people/organisations are making a mountain out of a molehill. No one was forced to follow the comments on twitter. Those involved should perhaps think twice about posting similar comments in future, but Police involvement - GET A GRIP! There are far worse things in the world than a few jokes made in bad taste and far more important things for the police to be investigating than this.

You weren't offended by the tweets? We're any of the particularly offensive ones aimed at you? I seem to remember when Frankie Boyle made a joke about the children of a certain celebrity, said celebrity didn't see the funny side. Difference is, you expect to be shocked when at a Boyle gig, you don't really expect it at a contest.

The comments were way beyond the mark so don't go blaming others for highlighting it when the blame lies at the feet of the perpetrators.

Mello
26.01.2012, 20:06
Having learned of all this was to me ....sickening. That isto say, after first being shocked , I then felt sick, that this happened within the Brass Band Movement which I have loved for so long.

However, I feel that whatever the resulting actions may be, those responsible should be at least named and shamed , together with their band details .
The latter being that their own bands may wish to take some sort of preventative or punitive action.

Bass Trumpet
26.01.2012, 20:30
Sickening really. The trolling of this site was bad enough (now almost stamped out), now we have a small minority of cocky little Herberts with nothing better to do abusing people on Twitter.

A laugh and a joke between friends/colleagues is one thing, but to abuse somebody on a public forum is very different. My only reply to the people on here who are defending this scum is - just wait until it's you on the receiving end!

One sliver lining though, is the bloke sending all of these nasty tweets (yes I did see them) wasn't intelligent enough to cover his tracks. If it was one of my band, I would have them removed immediately.

agentorange
26.01.2012, 20:39
You weren't offended by the tweets? We're any of the particularly offensive ones aimed at you? I seem to remember when Frankie Boyle made a joke about the children of a certain celebrity, said celebrity didn't see the funny side. Difference is, you expect to be shocked when at a Boyle gig, you don't really expect it at a contest.

The comments were way beyond the mark so don't go blaming others for highlighting it when the blame lies at the feet of the perpetrators.

No, I wasn't offended in the slightest, in the same way that I'm not offended by any other jokes made in bad taste. And no, there were none aimed at me, or at least I think so! However, if there were any then I wouldn't have been bothered, because I have the ability to distinguish between comments made in jest and genuine abuse.

I'm not defending the comments either by the way, I can see how they could be misconstrued as abusive, if taken seriously. However i still cannot see how they would be taken as anything other than a joke by anyone using a degree of common sense. Childish- yes, irresponsible - perhaps, to be taken literally - no way, a police matter - you're having a laugh! Absurd to even suggest it. A complete and utter waste of police time if you ask me, and i really can't see why it's been blown out of all proportion.

Bryn, I'm not blaming others for highlighting it, I simply cannot see what is to be gained by doing it. If complaints have been made to Butlins, and Butlins are aware of who's involved (as has been suggested), then let Butlins deal with it. It didn't have to be reported on 4BR, and I see no positive reason for doing so.

mdfreeman
26.01.2012, 21:06
If someone is so stupid as to post anything of the nature we are talking about (I haven't seen the tweets in question) then they deserve to be a) caught b) prosecuted to the fullest extent. What a large number of the population seem to misunderstand is that you can post anything you want and its ok. If it's offensive then it is a breach of the telecommunications act :-

127 Improper use of public electronic communications network


(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.

Please feel free to shoot me down at this point. It's sad that the media have got hold of this but don't blame 4barsrest, blame the people who committed the crime!

Thats my two pence worth lol

PS I''m an IT Manager working for a private company before anyone jumps to conclusions!!

agentorange
26.01.2012, 21:40
If someone is so stupid as to post anything of the nature we are talking about (I haven't seen the tweets in question) then they deserve to be a) caught b) prosecuted to the fullest extent. What a large number of the population seem to misunderstand is that you can post anything you want and its ok. If it's offensive then it is a breach of the telecommunications act :-

127 Improper use of public electronic communications network


(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.

Please feel free to shoot me down at this point. It's sad that the media have got hold of this but don't blame 4barsrest, blame the people who committed the crime!

Thats my two pence worth lol

PS I''m an IT Manager working for a private company before anyone jumps to conclusions!!



Again, I'm not blaming 4BR, I just feel that they could've acted with a little more discretion rather than adding fuel to the fire.

In isolation it does appear that these tweets are offensive. However in context (i.e. following all the tweets from the start) then it is obvious that it is in fact just a p*#s take, and shouldn't be taken seriously. What it was, was a parody of the contest commentary that 4BR provide - perhaps that's why they felt the need to get involved?

I hadn't realised the legal implications - I'd assumed free speech was free speech.

Right that's enough, I've said my piece. It's starting to sound like i have something to hide!


:dunno

agentorange
26.01.2012, 21:42
It's not me by the way........!!!

mdfreeman
26.01.2012, 21:55
Again, I'm not blaming 4BR, I just feel that they could've acted with a little more discretion rather than adding fuel to the fire.

In isolation it does appear that these tweets are offensive. However in context (i.e. following all the tweets from the start) then it is obvious that it is in fact just a p*#s take, and shouldn't be taken seriously. What it was, was a parody of the contest commentary that 4BR provide - perhaps that's why they felt the need to get involved?

I hadn't realised the legal implications - I'd assumed free speech was free speech.

Right that's enough, I've said my piece. It's starting to sound like i have something to hide!


:dunno


Not aimed at anyone in particular my comment so hope you didn't take offence.

The whole thing could of been avoided by the people in question putting their hands up and apologising. It wouldn't of got any coverage at all then most likely.

PS

It wasn't me either

agentorange
26.01.2012, 21:57
Not aimed at anyone in particular my comment so hope you didn't take offence.




Absolutely none taken.:)

The Wherryman
26.01.2012, 22:01
The whole thing could of been avoided by the people in question putting their hands up and apologising. It wouldn't of got any coverage at all then most likely.

PS

It wasn't me eitherThis will soon become old news, but if it has given a 'heads up' to others and there is no repetition, there is a silver lining to the cloud.

PS

It wasn't me either (this is beginning to sound like a re-run of Spartacus)

agentorange
26.01.2012, 22:34
Lets hope so.

iaindrum
26.01.2012, 23:48
I had a 'award' named after me but to honest it didn't bother me a bit, I'm to busy and have to much stuff going on in my life to worry about things like that and probably so do half of you guys. the chances are most of you didn't read the tweets and are just jumping on the bandwagon but for the ones who did, if it offended don't read it..... Simples.

towse1972
27.01.2012, 00:16
The one thing that has struck me is that it seems like 4bars have pushed the issue. The postcard from Butlins article is hardly informative and unbiased reporting to my mind.

Bayerd
27.01.2012, 00:18
Sickening really. The trolling of this site was bad enough (now almost stamped out), now we have a small minority of cocky little Herberts with nothing better to do abusing people on Twitter.

A laugh and a joke between friends/colleagues is one thing, but to abuse somebody on a public forum is very different. My only reply to the people on here who are defending this scum is - just wait until it's you on the receiving end!

One sliver lining though, is the bloke sending all of these nasty tweets (yes I did see them) wasn't intelligent enough to cover his tracks. If it was one of my band, I would have them removed immediately.

From what I've read on Facebook this evening, that's exactly what has happened.

hobgoblin
27.01.2012, 01:05
I've had a good look at the pictures on 4br from the weekend and I'm really struggling to spot either the "serial rapist" or the recipient of the "award" - all very confusing. 4br have obviously pushed this as hard as they can, but the police are only "considering" action (not interested). I suspect the (mis)use of the 4br logo is probably the most likely thing to result in any action. In the meantime I think the culprit(s) band(s) should use tried and tested witch-hunting methods such a throwing the accused off a cliff to see if they fly, or into a pond and burning them if they float!

boourns
27.01.2012, 01:33
"Another comment compared the competition to being like the Auschwitz concentration camp."

The most offensive of all surely - they've presumably never been to Ponditz

fartycat
27.01.2012, 08:27
I read all the tweets on both days (unlike most of here I suspect). Some were very offensive. Some involved my band. But as someone else says they were no worse than a Frankie Boyle gig (and on twitter you should expect to come across anything and if you don't like it, block it or don't follow).

What I have a problem with is 4BR's inflation and misreporting of this issue. As I say, I saw all the posts. I didn't see any racism unless you count the mickey taking out of 4BR's supposed Welsh bias. I'm a lifelong anti racist/fascist campaigner with welsh ancestry, I don't consider that racism. Making a false accusation of racism actually gives succour to any bigots out there and allows them to use the old chestnut 'it's political correctness gone mad'. I also note that Iwan has dropped the 'R' bomb before.

Similarly, the anti religious tweet was very inoffensive. It made a joke out of one band playing an SA piece by calling them 'God botherers'.

Section 127 of the Telecommunications Act 2003 based on the 1984 Act of the same name is an interesting one. Whilst the CPS are keen to see a few prosecutions from social media, the law is weak, flawed and about to be tested in the appeal courts with the Paul Chambers 'Twitter Joke' case.

I actually find it more offensive that at a time when the police are under severe pressure due to cuts that they (and the national media) should be dragged into this witchhunt.

fartycat
27.01.2012, 08:35
By the way, the funniest thing he/she wrote all day was;

'My name is Frank Renton and today I will be mostly talking about myself accompanied by a band'

johnflugel
27.01.2012, 10:28
I hadn't realised the legal implications - I'd assumed free speech was free speech.
:dunno

It is...but there is a line which the law covers

rutty
27.01.2012, 11:01
They may have had only 200 followers but they were directly replying to @4barsrest - so that they could see the abuse they were getting I suppose - and they were using the #Butlins2012 hashtag in their tweets. For those not Twitter users, this means that anyone following that hashtag (I was) could see every one of their tweets.

Hashtags are a great way of following certain topics. I thought they were funny at first, then they started directly insulting 4barsest (something I doubt they'd do to their faces) then they started insulting various people on stage. I remember one tweet that called Russell Grey a word that rhymes with Bertie Blunt.

I got fed up with their inanity and blocked them, but their tweets still showed up in the hashtag search. In the end, I gave up following it.

It's OK to be offensive if you're Frankie Boyle because you'll only get Frankie Boyle fans listening to him. He can be immensely funny. I'm all for satire and the account in question certainly seemed to start off in that vein. If they'd kept it within reasonable limits of offensiveness then no-one could reasonably complain. However, they pushed their tweets into the public domain and some of what they said was unsuitable in the context of a national contest. I don't think it's unreasonable for the contest organisers to expect a certain level of behaviour from the attendees.

Put it like this, would these people have said the same things to the faces of the people they were abusing? If they knew them, perhaps, if they didn't know them then they're just being incredibly rude.

Having said all that, I doubt this is such a scandal as deserves being reported by the BBC, Sky and the Telegraph. People being rude on Twitter? Happens every day. Do these people deserve some of the stick they're getting? I certainly think so. Be offensive within your circle of friends or with people you know appreciate that level of humour (I certain do with certain friends) but they expanded out of that context, and here we are, having a thread about it on tMP.

Be offensive, if you must. I certainly can be. But don't expect others to not be offended if you do it where everyone can hear you.

Pondash
27.01.2012, 11:31
This makes me realise why I retired from banding.

Pondash.

The Godfather
27.01.2012, 13:02
They may have had only 200 followers but they were directly replying to @4barsrest - so that they could see the abuse they were getting I suppose - and they were using the #Butlins2012 hashtag in their tweets. For those not Twitter users, this means that anyone following that hashtag (I was) could see every one of their tweets.

Hashtags are a great way of following certain topics. I thought they were funny at first, then they started directly insulting 4barsest (something I doubt they'd do to their faces) then they started insulting various people on stage. I remember one tweet that called Russell Grey a word that rhymes with Bertie Blunt.

I got fed up with their inanity and blocked them, but their tweets still showed up in the hashtag search. In the end, I gave up following it.

It's OK to be offensive if you're Frankie Boyle because you'll only get Frankie Boyle fans listening to him. He can be immensely funny. I'm all for satire and the account in question certainly seemed to start off in that vein. If they'd kept it within reasonable limits of offensiveness then no-one could reasonably complain. However, they pushed their tweets into the public domain and some of what they said was unsuitable in the context of a national contest. I don't think it's unreasonable for the contest organisers to expect a certain level of behaviour from the attendees.

Put it like this, would these people have said the same things to the faces of the people they were abusing? If they knew them, perhaps, if they didn't know them then they're just being incredibly rude.

Having said all that, I doubt this is such a scandal as deserves being reported by the BBC, Sky and the Telegraph. People being rude on Twitter? Happens every day. Do these people deserve some of the stick they're getting? I certainly think so. Be offensive within your circle of friends or with people you know appreciate that level of humour (I certain do with certain friends) but they expanded out of that context, and here we are, having a thread about it on tMP.

Be offensive, if you must. I certainly can be. But don't expect others to not be offended if you do it where everyone can hear you.
You think it's OK for Boyle to be offensive ? and you doubt that the BBC/SKY/TELEGRAPH should report it ? You are 42 years of age ! Grow up !!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope you are not offended by my comment. Corleone.

Alyn James
27.01.2012, 13:11
From what I've read on Facebook this evening, that's exactly what has happened.

I don't have Facebook. Have the idiots been chucked?

boourns
27.01.2012, 13:19
This makes me realise why I retired from banding.

Pondash.
You retired from banding because of offensive tweeting?

WoodenFlugel
27.01.2012, 13:26
Rutty has it bang on as far as I am concerned.

I only have three things to add:

1) The news reports fail to mention that I believe most of the protagonists involved knew each other (I don't know all of the people behind it so can't say for sure), so some if not, most of the Tweets were effectively friends taking the **** out of each other. The BBC report in particular makes it read like they were all random attacks, which to my mind at least, is somewhat worse than the reality. I say this for the purposes of balance only as...

2) That said, it doesn't mean it was OK to put this stuff in the public domain - and however you spin it, Twitter is public domain. Far from it - at best it was naive and at worst it was just plain stupid. I've heard the 'its just a bit of banter' excuse before - usually involving some of the trolling that went on on this site previously. The golden rule with banter is that it simply isn't funny to anyone out of the immediate social circle that it relates to, so comments get read on face value by those outsiders. Its best to keep the banter to the small focussed group that understands the context. So, while you might call your best buddy a serial rapist on the band bus, and get away with it, if you shouted it to him across the street you (and he) would probably get some funny looks. Its the same online. Therefore the 'I was a target and I wasn't offended' comments really don't wash in this case.

3) Like it or not 4BR have worked extremely hard to build their reputation within the movement over the years, so its quite understandable that they will work equally hard to protect it. Some of the most 'unfortunate' comments were made with a spoofed 4BR logo at the top of the page. While the spoof was pretty obvious to those in the know, it would be less so to the less familiar. 4BR are quite within their rights to demand it be removed - even more so given the content. Incidentally I'm surprised the spoof Butlin's logo hasn't been picked up on yet. That doesn't excuse some of the hyperbole they (4BR) have written since, which is in danger of turning a regrettable incident into something much more unfortunate and damaging.

Was it stupid, naive, reckless, unfortunate, misjudged? Yes - and knowing who some of them play for, I imagine the main culprits will be dealt with by their bands in a swift and decisive way.

Is it the End Of Banding As We Know It? No absolutely not, and it shouldn't be reported as such.

(these are my opinions alone and are not the opinions of either theMouthPiece.com or Enderby Band)

WoodenFlugel
27.01.2012, 13:36
In case anyone is wondering - I did read most of the Tweets during the weekend.

I also wondered how they all got such good network coverage - I was still receiving texts sent to me on Saturday night on Monday morning...

The Godfather
27.01.2012, 13:46
Rutty has it bang on as far as I am concerned.

I only have three things to add:

1) The news reports fail to mention that I believe most of the protagonists involved knew each other (I don't know all of the people behind it so can't say for sure), so some if not, most of the Tweets were effectively friends taking the **** out of each other. The BBC report in particular makes it read like they were all random attacks, which to my mind at least, is somewhat worse than the reality. I say this for the purposes of balance only as...

2) That said, it doesn't mean it was OK to put this stuff in the public domain - and however you spin it, Twitter is public domain. Far from it - at best it was naive and at worst it was just plain stupid. I've heard the 'its just a bit of banter' excuse before - usually involving some of the trolling that went on on this site previously. The golden rule with banter is that it simply isn't funny to anyone out of the immediate social circle that it relates to, so comments get read on face value by those outsiders. Its best to keep the banter to the small focussed group that understands the context. So, while you might call your best buddy a serial rapist on the band bus, and get away with it, if you shouted it to him across the street you (and he) would probably get some funny looks. Its the same online. Therefore the 'I was a target and I wasn't offended' comments really don't wash in this case.

3) Like it or not 4BR have worked extremely hard to build their reputation within the movement over the years, so its quite understandable that they will work equally hard to protect it. Some of the most 'unfortunate' comments were made with a spoofed 4BR logo at the top of the page. While the spoof was pretty obvious to those in the know, it would be less so to the less familiar. 4BR are quite within their rights to demand it be removed - even more so given the content. Incidentally I'm surprised the spoof Butlin's logo hasn't been picked up on yet. That doesn't excuse some of the hyperbole they (4BR) have written since, which is in danger of turning a regrettable incident into something much more unfortunate and damaging.

Was it stupid, naive, reckless, unfortunate, misjudged? Yes - and knowing who some of them play for, I imagine the main culprits will be dealt with by their bands in a swift and decisive way.

Is it the End Of Banding As We Know It? No absolutely not, and it shouldn't be reported as such.
OK, No it's not the end of banding, but if they must hurl foul abuse, even in fun, they could text it, and save the public at large from adding further ridicule to what is generally considered to be the pass-time of the working classes. Corleone.

WoodenFlugel
27.01.2012, 13:48
...which is kind of my point - or one of them.

The Godfather
27.01.2012, 14:04
...which is kind of my point - or one of them.
Yes, agree. The media generally are only too happy to 'S--T in ANYONES GARDEN', and I don't subscribe to the argument that all publicity is good publicity. I don't suppose the Beeb, or anyone else outside our little world would have given us the slightest attention if there was'nt a whiff of scandal in the air. Such is the high esteem in which we are held. I did'nt see anything in the media about the brilliance of amateur musicians etc !

Bayerd
27.01.2012, 14:21
I don't have Facebook. Have the idiots been chucked?

One has, although I understand that the main perpetrator remains in-situ. His band may have gone for the 'toilet chat' approach and leave it at that instead.

Interestingly, if I've read between the lines correctly, one of them once took part in the 'junior 4br' reporting held at the areas a few years ago.

Bungle
27.01.2012, 14:23
OK, No it's not the end of banding, but if they must hurl foul abuse, even in fun, they could text it, and save the public at large from adding further ridicule to what is generally considered to be the pass-time of the working classes. Corleone.

Even forwarding texts or tweets could lead to prosecution or disiplinary action from the company you work for, as was highlighted in a recent case against a chief inspector in Hastings. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-15968842) The supension put a lot pressure on his familly, from which they may not trully recover, so be careful what you send, even if you think it is private.

Here is a link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/9042440/Brassed-off-Harmony-of-the-brass-band-world-broken-by-sickening-insults.html)to the Daily telegraph article

iRyan
27.01.2012, 14:35
Bayerd, I think that last comment is a bit too close to name and shaming one of the culprits, especially when you're not aware of which person posted what on the twitter..

The Godfather
27.01.2012, 14:41
Even forwarding texts or tweets could lead to prosecution or disiplinary action from the company you work for, as was highlighted in a recent case against a chief inspector in Hastings. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-15968842) The supension put a lot pressure on his familly, from which they may not trully recover, so be careful what you send, even if you think it is private.

Here is a link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/9042440/Brassed-off-Harmony-of-the-brass-band-world-broken-by-sickening-insults.html)to the Daily telegraph article
Ah, fair comment Bungle, I prefer to hurl abuse 'face to face' without witnesses of course, in the true Mafioso fasion. When one works in banking, one is taught to be cautious. Seriously, I take your point. Corleone.

The Godfather
27.01.2012, 14:46
One has, although I understand that the main perpetrator remains in-situ. His band may have gone for the 'toilet chat' approach and leave it at that instead.

Interestingly, if I've read between the lines correctly, one of them once took part in the 'junior 4br' reporting held at the areas a few years ago.
Hey Bayerd, I'm not sure what 'Toilet Chat' is. Please elaborate. Corleone.

towse1972
27.01.2012, 15:17
One has, although I understand that the main perpetrator remains in-situ. His band may have gone for the 'toilet chat' approach and leave it at that instead.

Interestingly, if I've read between the lines correctly, one of them once took part in the 'junior 4br' reporting held at the areas a few years ago.
I had forgotten about that....Irony indeed!

towse1972
27.01.2012, 15:19
Bayerd, I think that last comment is a bit too close to name and shaming one of the culprits, especially when you're not aware of which person posted what on the twitter..I think it's pretty much common knowledge anyhow Ryan.

Bayerd
27.01.2012, 15:46
Hey Bayerd, I'm not sure what 'Toilet Chat' is. Please elaborate. Corleone.

Your family may use another term, use your imagination.

Alyn James
27.01.2012, 16:01
Bayerd, I think that last comment is a bit too close to name and shaming one of the culprits, especially when you're not aware of which person posted what on the twitter..

Name him, shame him, sack him.....idiot.
I won't be paying out for tickets the next time his band visits Cardiff if he does remain in situ.

Kiz7
27.01.2012, 16:17
well perhaps he will have the chance to redeem his name and the name of brass banding when he takes to the BBC Young Musician Category final stage as he's the only brass band representative left? He and the others have made a mistake - albeit a big public one - but surely there is no need to hang them out to dry? Perhaps if they were to take the initiative and publicly apologise (via 4barsrest or whatever) then this would all die down and it would take the sting out of the tale as far as the papers are concerned. Can't even begin to imagine how they must be feeling right now - young people rarely think their actions through completely and I'd hazard a guess that none of those involved considered the far reaching consequences.

sorry, screwed up the quote - meant to be in reply to the previous post

The Wherryman
27.01.2012, 16:28
well perhaps he will have the chance to redeem his name and the name of brass banding when he takes to the BBC Young Musician Category final stage as he's the only brass band representative left? He and the others have made a mistake - albeit a big public one - but surely there is no need to hang them out to dry?I think you just did. I was one of the many (majority?) who didn't have a clue who was involved in this...until now.

Kiz7
27.01.2012, 16:31
I think you just did. I was one of the many (majority?) who didn't have a clue who was involved in this...until now.


Ah, I was under the impression that it was common knowledge having read the previous posts. Unfortunately I can't edit that post above now so will ask the mods to do so as I certainly didn't mean to do that.

Will the Sec
27.01.2012, 16:52
#iwishihadntsaidthat

Kiz7
27.01.2012, 17:08
#iwishihadntsaidthat


I have reported my own post and contacted the mods. Not sure what else I can do. The intentions were good though, and I do stand by what I say in terms of giving a break. Just didn't realise (having read all of this thread which suggests that everyone knows anyway) that some people didn't know.

Dr Bob
27.01.2012, 17:36
Its a shame that someone has already been sacked by their band for this.......what makes it worse its the wrong guy from the wrong band :(

The Wherryman
27.01.2012, 17:52
Its a shame that someone has already been sacked by their band for this.......what makes it worse its the wrong guy from the wrong band :(???...so why was he sacked?

Dr Bob
27.01.2012, 18:15
???...so why was he sacked?

Because he was involved... albeit a minor role.

The Wherryman
27.01.2012, 18:18
Because he was involved... albeit a minor role.Oh, OK. I thought for a moment that someone not involved had been wrongfully accused and sanctioned.

mikelyons
27.01.2012, 18:37
And now I know exactly why I am not a member of the twittering classes. People (particularly young people) need to realise that what they write on twitter or facebook today might very well come back and bite them in the bum tomorrow. Not only do they manage to display their pathetic ignorance of spelling, punctuation and grammar, but they also show their blissfull lack of awareness of the likely consequences of the misfortunate word going out to a global audience. Whoever it was - and I remain in blissfull ignorance - deserves to be taught a lesson, not in an attempt to punish, but in the hope that they will never be so foolish again.

trombone-john
27.01.2012, 18:38
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-16762645

GJG
27.01.2012, 18:44
And now I know exactly why I am not a member of the twittering classes. ...

Me too. It's bad enough coming back from the pub at silly-o'clock and posting some mindless drivel on tMP without stopping to think about it (even if it is superbly worded with faultless grammatical construction and impeccable spelling); God only knows how much more stupid I could make myself look if I was on Twitbook ...

eflatbass
27.01.2012, 20:22
And now I know exactly why I am not a member of the twittering classes. People (particularly young people) need to realise that what they write on twitter or facebook today might very well come back and bite them in the bum tomorrow. Not only do they manage to display their pathetic ignorance of spelling, punctuation and grammar, but they also show their blissfull lack of awareness of the likely consequences of the misfortunate word going out to a global audience. Whoever it was - and I remain in blissfull ignorance - deserves to be taught a lesson, not in an attempt to punish, but in the hope that they will never be so foolish again.

Thank you, Mike, for speaking such good sense, and with perfect spelling and grammar! I share in your blissful(l!) ignorance.

Bass Trumpet
27.01.2012, 20:32
So, it's sort-of been revealed who it was. It turns out this is a cocky little teenager. If I had behaved like that at that age, my Dad would have kicked my ar$e so hard - but that was then. Let's hope his parents have taken the appropriate steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.

ploughboy
27.01.2012, 20:37
I think you might find Dad thought it was all rather jolly fun! But they're all members on here, so I'm sure they can come and defend themselves, or apologise, or chose to let speculation run riot.

For those not on FB, Andy Kennedy has apologised (twice now) and said although he was part of the guys doing it, he did not provide any of the serious comments about race/sex etc. . . and obviously with all modern technology he can prove it. Although he has lost his seat at B&R over the whole thing. He also names the other young man involved, but I don't want to repeat that on here.

Alyn James
27.01.2012, 21:19
So, it's sort-of been revealed who it was. It turns out this is a cocky little teenager. If I had behaved like that at that age, my Dad would have kicked my ar$e so hard - but that was then. Let's hope his parents have taken the appropriate steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Same here. Let's hope it's not just his parents who sanction him. Perhaps a year out of top-class banding might help him grow the h*ll up.

The Godfather
27.01.2012, 21:58
Your family may use another term, use your imagination.
Thanks Bayerd, I got it now. My non-British education is to blame.

Will the Sec
27.01.2012, 22:02
I have reported my own post and contacted the mods. Not sure what else I can do. The intentions were good though, and I do stand by what I say in terms of giving a break. Just didn't realise (having read all of this thread which suggests that everyone knows anyway) that some people didn't know.

To be honest, Kiz, it wasn't aimed at you, more a comment on the whole scenario. I had typed about 200 words to comment, and found that the phrase I'd put at the end had summed it up.

tromwinst
27.01.2012, 23:51
As much as I didn't like everything that was tweeted. I am shocked that 4br, BBC and some of you on here are happy with the spotlight it has put banding under. You seem happy with how it has been dealt and some are even pushing for more consequences. Sad really. Yes, it was right that they should be pulled up on it but sadly this has done nothing for brass banding at all. It would have been better to deal with this in a much more private way.

I really do hope that anyone on here that has shot the culprits down have now stopped watching any comedy acts, tv sitcoms, tv, films and have deleted and disowned any friends that have ever been or hinted at anything that was not perfectly PC.

Shocked at some peoples reactions on here.

mdfreeman
28.01.2012, 00:11
As much as I didn't like everything that was tweeted. I am shocked that 4br, BBC and some of you on here are happy with the spotlight it has put banding under. You seem happy with how it has been dealt and some are even pushing for more consequences. Sad really. Yes, it was right that they should be pulled up on it but sadly this has done nothing for brass banding at all. It would have been better to deal with this in a much more private way.

I really do hope that anyone on here that has shot the culprits down have now stopped watching any comedy acts, tv sitcoms, tv, films and have deleted and disowned any friends that have ever been or hinted at anything that was not perfectly PC.

Shocked at some peoples reactions on here.

Yes it's done nothing for brass banding at all. But these ended up in the public domain with a hashtag which meant you would see them whether you wanted to or not. If I want to watch something non PC (and sometimes I do I happen to be a chubby brown fan for just one) then I can choose to watch it. If the people in question wanted to have a private joke then a private joke they should of had not posted them to the world.

I don't believe that anyone on here would want the brass band world under a microscope for this, but we didn't cause the problem others did. It's a grown up world now and we need to realise that our actions now have consequences that are not limited inside the brass band movement.

boourns
28.01.2012, 00:20
I don't believe that anyone on here would want the brass band world under a microscope for this, but we didn't cause the problem others did. It's a grown up world now and we need to realise that our actions now have consequences that are not limited inside the brass band movement.
Hashtag or not, how many people outwith the banding world would have known anything of this if 4BR hadn't taken it upon themselves to mount a crusade?

tromwinst
28.01.2012, 00:21
you could see who had posted them before you read what it says. This is why they highlight it on the tweet. It took me maybe half a second to scroll down and not read the ones from these individuals. Less time than it would take for you to reach over and change the channel with your remote if something came on the tv you didn't wish to view. Yet we manage that?
A telling off yes, but nothing as much as what has been suggested on here. It has got to this because people have pushed it to this and wanted this to happen. My goodness, humour has changed and you only need to watch tv, sit coms, films to realise that. It is simply another form of humour that exists. If you don't like it don't read/watch it.

I have yet to hear or see a post where individuals that have been mentioned have objected to the tweets. Would they want all this attention and all the action that has been taken?
Banding is hard enough to promote never mind all this. I see these sorts of arguments in my year 5 class and deal with it better than what is going on.

mdfreeman
28.01.2012, 00:28
OK I've had enough of being flamed here. The point is not how it got out or who leaked it, but that it did and how we now deal with this in a professional manner. Maybe we should just keep banding in the 19th century.

boourns
28.01.2012, 00:38
OK I've had enough of being flamed here. The point is not how it got out or who leaked it, but that it did and how we now deal with this in a professional manner. Maybe we should just keep banding in the 19th century.
I'm not flaming anyone, but I think 'how it got out' is an important consideration. For whatever reasons, and I'd imagine they weren't entirely altruistic, 4BR pushed what was some ill advised but essentially harmless 'banter' beyond the boundaries of the normal brass band press. So we're now left with a ridiculous situation, hyped out of all proportion with talk of police involvement and sackings from high profile bands, but at least Iwan Fox got his name on the BBC website and in the Telegraph.

brassneck
28.01.2012, 00:42
Thanks to Donna Towse for making me aware of a recent response to the tweets ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-16762645

mdfreeman
28.01.2012, 00:47
I'm not flaming anyone, but I think 'how it got out' is an important consideration. For whatever reasons, and I'd imagine they weren't entirely altruistic, 4BR pushed what was some ill advised but essentially harmless 'banter' beyond the boundaries of the normal brass band press. So we're now left with a ridiculous situation, hyped out of all proportion with talk of police involvement and sackings from high profile bands, but at least Iwan Fox got his name on the BBC website and in the Telegraph.

Fair enough. I believe they used a modified version of 4barsrest logo at first, so much as I hate to defend them I can see the gripe they had with that. What worries me is that we see the brass band world as a small isolated community. Again Banter is Banter but you wouldn't shout across the road in public accusing someone of being a rapist or I hope you wouldn't as a joke? Social media sites are just that...Social and the whole world can see them is it the image we want to portray?

Alyn James
28.01.2012, 08:35
I think you might find Dad thought it was all rather jolly fun!

Perhaps Dad is part of the problem. This deluded young fool thinks he's a wit. He isn't. I would suggest that if Dad had intervened when his son was misbehaving on this site (fake IDs etc.) the boy would not have gone on to drop himself in this ****. For the boy's long-term sake he needs someone to come down on him hard.

fartycat
28.01.2012, 09:25
Some of what has been written about above beggars belief. It's almost as though I've stumbled upon the Daily Mail readers comments. Criticising his father for his parenting skills? Calling for Bands to sack players. Really? The amount of people laying into a 16-year-old kid on here is astonishing. Perhaps unlike me, you all behaved like angels when you were 16, didn't drink, didn't smoke and certainly didn't swear? If so, feel free to chuck the first stone.

Sorry but this is really showing up the worst from some people in our movement and I'm not talking about the kids here.

mikelyons
28.01.2012, 10:42
To me, it's not what the lad has done, it's where he has done it - in my day, the worst that could happen was that you would upset someone in the bar and they might thump you and that would be it. Now these things end up with world-wide coverage and can damage the lad's reputation, his family's and his band's - not to mention, in this case, the people he and others lambasted. I don't really think the family can be blamed here, it's the culture the children are growing up in, where it's ok to put your private thoughts out in the open for millions (possibly) of other people to see. Adults realise how much difficulty that can cause. Children don't. I agree that 4br might have over-reacted a little and, to an extent, they are also partly to blame for the excessive media coverage that is bringing the brass band world into disrepute. How better to reinforce the coarse and vulgar stereotype of cloth cap, clogs and whippet!

hobgoblin
28.01.2012, 10:45
Some of what has been written about above beggars belief. It's almost as though I've stumbled upon the Daily Mail readers comments. Criticising his father for his parenting skills? Calling for Bands to sack players. Really? The amount of people laying into a 16-year-old kid on here is astonishing. Perhaps unlike me, you all behaved like angels when you were 16, didn't drink, didn't smoke and certainly didn't swear? If so, feel free to chuck the first stone. Sorry but this is really showing up the worst from some people in our movement and I'm not talking about the kids here. Quite - it would seem that in 4br's (understandable) anger at the parody of their contest tweets someone has done their best to cause as much trouble with the police who are clearly not interested, and then using any media contacts available to try and induce Daily Mail type hysteria. I can understand the kids band trying to mitigate the bad PR by getting rid - I'm sure any other top band like Dyke, Cory or whoever would do the same but it seems a bit harsh.

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 11:30
...then using any media contacts available to try and induce Daily Mail type hysteria...Slightly hyperbolic, IMHO. Apart from 4br reporting it, this has reached the dizzy media heights of the BBC Lincolnshire web site.

fartycat
28.01.2012, 11:39
and the Telegraph, and Sky. Iwan Fox had tried to create a media storm, the fact that he pretty much failed doesn't negate that fact. I also hear he has been ringing up bands of the accused. This is a witchhunt.

Dago
28.01.2012, 12:22
Perhaps Dad is part of the problem. This deluded young fool thinks he's a wit. He isn't. I would suggest that if Dad had intervened when his son was misbehaving on this site (fake IDs etc.) the boy would not have gone on to drop himself in this ****. For the boy's long-term sake he needs someone to come down on him hard.

Correct in every way Alyn. Not only has this person disgraced himself and the brass band movement but has placed his own band in a very difficult position. Yes, he does think he's a wit - unfortunately he's not, but has been encouraged by the people who think it's amusing to use a barrage of abusive language on social network sites for all to see. Of course, many of his co-conspirators and cronies seem to think that this behaviour is acceptable? I wonder what the management of Butlins now feel about running a band contest which attracts such bad publicity - it could jeopordise the future? I feel, for the honour of his own band, of whom I am a patron, he should resign with immediate effect before these disgraceful acts tarnish the name of the band he plays for.

Dago

boourns
28.01.2012, 12:30
I feel, for the honour of his own band, of whom I am a patron, he should resign with immediate effect before these disgraceful acts tarnish the name of the band he plays for.
Dago
And you obviously want your money's worth for your forty quid. What's the going rate for a pound of flesh these days?

Dago
28.01.2012, 12:33
And you obviously want your money's worth for your forty quid. What's the going rate for a pound of flesh these days?

You missed this bit:-

"Of course, many of his co-conspirators and cronies seem to think that this behaviour is acceptable?"

boourns
28.01.2012, 12:43
You missed this bit:-

"Of course, many of his co-conspirators and cronies seem to think that this behaviour is acceptable?"
I am neither, if that's what you're implying, and nowhere have I seen anyone say it was acceptable. It's just that many people, including apparently some of those who actually have a right to be offended, think that the reaction has been blown massively out of proportion. There has already been one knee jerk sacking, and people are baying for more blood. It beggars belief.

hobgoblin
28.01.2012, 12:43
Correct in every way Alyn. Not only has this person disgraced himself and the brass band movement but has placed his own band in a very difficult position. Yes, he does think he's a wit - unfortunately he's not, but has been encouraged by the people who think it's amusing to use a barrage of abusive language on social network sites for all to see. Of course, many of his co-conspirators and cronies seem to think that this behaviour is acceptable? I wonder what the management of Butlins now feel about running a band contest which attracts such bad publicity - it could jeopordise the future? I feel, for the honour of his own band, of whom I am a patron, he should resign with immediate effect before these disgraceful acts tarnish the name of the band he plays for. Dago It sounds like some of the tweets did indeed go beyond the acceptable, but the only person to disgrace the band movement is the one who has tried to court maximum publicity to this whole mess, otherwise this particular storm in the tiny tea-cup of banding would have been forgotten by now. As for the future of Butlins contest, I don't think there is any danger of them pulling the plug on the cash cow that sees a few hundred mugs paying through the nose for a weekend on the p**s in a Baltic 1950's slum. Maybe you should resign as a patron if your sensibilities are so enraged? - by next week both your patronage and this incident would be history.

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 12:54
I can understand the kids band trying to mitigate the bad PR by getting rid..Have they 'got rid'? I must have missed something then. I have only seen mention of one of the others involved losing his seat.


and the Telegraph, and Sky. Iwan Fox had tried to create a media storm, the fact that he pretty much failed doesn't negate that fact. I also hear he has been ringing up bands of the accused. This is a witchhunt.You forgot to mention tMP. Strangely enough, I never read the BBC Lincolnshire web site or The Telegraph, very rarely look at 4br and don't watch Sky. I (and probably many others) became aware of this matter solely via tMP. Is tMP part of the witch hunt (rhetorical question)? Should this thread have been locked and deleted (ditto)?

Unfortunately, with electronic media, unless you actually know something about the correspondent, such as age, gender, social background etc., any communication has to be taken at face value. There is no body language by which to gauge it and you have to judge it by your own standards.

While I can understand that likening a player’s sound to that of a vacuum cleaner might be considered amusing, not so the suggestion that a player is a child abuser. Mud sticks and, if that comment had been made about someone in my band I would expect an instant retraction, together with an unequivocal personal and public apology.

What the band for which he plays does about it is up to them, but they will be aware that there are many eyes upon them – if that makes any difference.

hobgoblin
28.01.2012, 13:14
Have they 'got rid'? I must have missed something then. I have only seen mention of one of the others involved losing his seat. You forgot to mention tMP. Strangely enough, I never read the BBC Lincolnshire web site or The Telegraph, very rarely look at 4br and don't watch Sky. I (and probably many others) became aware of this matter solely via tMP. Is tMP part of the witch hunt (rhetorical question)? Should this thread have been locked and deleted (ditto)? Unfortunately, with electronic media, unless you actually know something about the correspondent, such as age, gender, social background etc., any communication has to be taken at face value. There is no body language by which to gauge it and you have to judge it by your own standards. While I can understand that likening a player’s sound to that of a vacuum cleaner might be considered amusing, not so the suggestion that a player is a child abuser. Mud sticks and, if that comment had been made about someone in my band I would expect an instant retraction, together with an unequivocal personal and public apology. What the band for which he plays does about it is up to them, but they will be aware that there are many eyes upon them – if that makes any difference. I can't see what any of this has to do with the respective bands of those involved - unless they were representing their bands at the contest. Without knowing those involved, it would appear from other posts on this thread that they are "top level" bandsmen, and therefore would only be attending a relatively minor contest such as Butlins as social spectators. By all means throw the disinterested long arm of the (six fingered) Lincolnshire law at them, and have a word with their parents if you must, but sack them from their bands - get a life! I'm pretty sure those involved have got the message loud and clear that what went on is not acceptable, probably feeling like complete idiots, and wishing they had not done it. Surely that is enough? Perhaps those baying for more sanctions against what seems to be a bunch of little more than kids need to question their own motives?

Steve
28.01.2012, 13:19
Regardless of the involvement of 4br etc and the manner in which this has been manipulated in certain circles lets get a couple of things cleared up.

No one involved in the Twitter account has said they are happy / proud of the comments (relating to race / sexuality etc) made.
The person that was asked to leave the contest and stop reporting did exactly that WELL before the worst tweets appeared.
This is NOT the same person that posted the worst twitter comments.
The person that ceased has since been sacked by their band. (B&R)
The person that tweeted the very serious comments has been retained by their band. (Black Dyke)

There is soooo much more to add, but that will come out in the wash I guess.

ps. I'm not involved in any way in the Twitter account

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 14:15
I can't see what any of this has to do with the respective bands of those involved - unless they were representing their bands at the contest. I don't think I have suggested that it has anything to do with the respective bands, only that what those bands do is up to them. However, in general terms, if a player behaves 'badly' within a banding scenario, and the band for which he/she plays appears to condone that behaviour by its inaction, it might be a cause for discussion.

Let's face it, the reprehensible and, sometimes illegal, behaviour of certain 'pop' stars only seems to increase their attractiveness to certain sections of society. Perhaps there are brass bands who would relish having that sort of reputation, if it brought the same financial rewards. There are so many calls for a greater involvement by the youth of today. It would be interesting to see if such a band could attract the same number of youthful players and followers as the' bad boys (and girls)' of pop.

kstring24
28.01.2012, 14:21
Some of what has been written about above beggars belief. It's almost as though I've stumbled upon the Daily Mail readers comments. Criticising his father for his parenting skills? Calling for Bands to sack players. Really? The amount of people laying into a 16-year-old kid on here is astonishing. Perhaps unlike me, you all behaved like angels when you were 16, didn't drink, didn't smoke and certainly didn't swear? If so, feel free to chuck the first stone.

Sorry but this is really showing up the worst from some people in our movement and I'm not talking about the kids here.

Oh come on, this 16 year old 'kid' should be old enough to take responsibility for his actions. No one is saying they were angels when they were 16, but I highly doubt anyone on here has openly made derogatory and damaging comments where other people can see? They probably didn't because there were no keyboards to hide behind or social networks that gave people a voice. However 16 year olds now probably still have the brains to work out where the line is, and even if they don't at least they don't attach themselves to an organisation that represents a large proportion of decent, self-respecting people who don't have the malice to call someone a pedophile.

fartycat
28.01.2012, 14:28
but I highly doubt anyone on here has openly made derogatory and damaging comments where other people can see?

What, you mean like 4BR regularly do on their own live reports? I've seen racist, sexist and homophobic output from them in the past.

Mrs Fruity
28.01.2012, 14:34
I think the internet has a lot to answer for. Since the advent of texts, internet forums and brass band "news" websites, the face of the organisaton has totally changed, and not always for the better. As someone said earlier, in the past if you had anything to say to another player, you'd say it face to face in the bar or at band and take the consequences. Now that photos taken on phones in the middle of band practices can be posted around the world in seconds, there's no mystique about the movement. Integrity is failing fast...

Grumpy Old Bird heads off into the sunset.

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 14:37
What, you mean like 4BR regularly do on their own live reports? I've seen racist, sexist and homophobic output from them in the past.Would you care to provide the links, so we can judge for ourselves?

hobgoblin
28.01.2012, 15:00
I don't think I have suggested that it has anything to do with the respective bands, only that what those bands do is up to them. However, in general terms, if a player behaves 'badly' within a banding scenario, and the band for which he/she plays appears to condone that behaviour by its inaction, it might be a cause for discussion. A cause for discussion, or do you mean stirring? With respect your argument is nonsense, and if you pursue its strange logic to its conclusion and have these individuals sacked by their employers, thrown out of their schools / colleges, diss-owned by their parents and chucked by their girlfriends as well as thrown out of their bands would you be happy? I suspect that if the lads concerned played for 4th section bands the outcry would be rather more muted, just because they play for top bands does not mean they are better people than the rest of us - just better players. They still have every right to make a mistake and move on having learned from it. I think they will have learned from this one by last Monday morning, they won't do it again, and all this fuss should deter others in future. With that in mind it seems a bit bitter and small minded for others to press for more action.

Steve
28.01.2012, 15:00
Ok!! Someone sent these to me but I know there have been many, many more. If someone else can be bothered to trawl their site then please do....

21 Nov 2010
Effective opening minus the Great Leader is a liitle dacha of a Russky into Hungary 1956 we go.
The hatted seaside postcard from Queen is as camp as Dale Winton in a bowler though. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be - even in black and white.


23 Jan 2011
Sounds like a young offenders institution but is in fact a decent old traditional march
Thankfully it all gets better with a neat take on the old 'When the Saints' theme that has more light loafered whistling apostles than a gay pride march through Brighton.

19 Nov 2011
High class playing with as many shiney baubles as can be found on a gypsies caravan in Essex.
A celebration of all things Argie - from Maradona and pampas cowboys to the tango and the SS Belgrano.
Two young player are brave but lacking the experience required to project the real intertwined sexuality needed.
The trip to redneck Alabama though is not great. Xylo/Marimba songs from the Ole' plantation.

ploughboy
28.01.2012, 16:01
fair enough points Steve - but at no point do 4BR actually directly name someone as a Pedo? I admit their word play gets close to the wire, but there is no direct name calling or deification.

Steve
28.01.2012, 16:09
Nor was there from the individual that was asked to leave the venue while tweeting.

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 16:19
A cause for discussion, or do you mean stirring?No, I mean discussion. This is a discussion forum, after all. Threads that are started with the intention of stirring the brown stuff (usually by an anonymous member) as soon identified as such.


With respect your argument is nonsense, and if you pursue its strange logic to its conclusion and have these individuals sacked by their employers, thrown out of their schools / colleges, diss-owned by their parents and chucked by their girlfriends as well as thrown out of their bands would you be happy? With respect, I haven’t made any argument that can be extrapolated to that extraordinary extent.


…just because they play for top bands…Isn’t that the point though? The higher the profile, the more intense the scrutiny.


They still have every right to make a mistake and move on having learned from it.So far, I only seen it suggested that one of those involved has showed any signs of contrition or of learning from it. It almost seems as if the prime mover couldn’t care less. That might be entirely wrong, but…?


I think they will have learned from this one by last Monday morning, they won't do it again, and all this fuss should deter others in future.

This will soon become old news, but if it has given a 'heads up' to others and there is no repetition, there is a silver lining to the cloud.
On that, we can agree.

ploughboy
28.01.2012, 16:25
Well, I was busy contesting so I did pay too much attention to the tweets on the Saturday so I can't comment on the timeline, However having had the bottle to come out and hold his hands up to certain comments (not the worst stuff) I'm happy to believe Andy.

On another note on this thread, People are asking who complained out of those who were tweeted about - I know Glyn Williams was keen to have a chat with whoever was commenting on Marsden's test piece work on Saturday!

MoominDave
28.01.2012, 16:29
fair enough points Steve - but at no point do 4BR actually directly name someone as a Pedo? I admit their word play gets close to the wire, but there is no direct name calling or deification.

Did these tweets do that? The two quotes singled out by 4BR (http://www.4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=14568) were:

"looks like a serial rapist" and 'that an award was being made for "services to s****ing children"'.
That is no closer to a direct assertion than many of the asides that 4BR turn out week in week out. I find 4BR's holier-than-thou stance on this hypocritical. After all (permitting bodily resurrection), what would we say if Bernard Manning called Frankie Boyle tasteless? Okay, so the tweets weren't as funny as Frankie Boyle can sometimes be - but then 4BR's attempts at humour so often only fail to be less funny than Bernard Manning was because there's no room to be less funny than he was... Their regular clumsy attempts at stereotype-based humour just make everyone cringe. They should get off their high horse and recognise their own faults before hounding a stupid kid.

Pondash
28.01.2012, 16:30
You retired from banding because of offensive tweeting?

No.
I have dont really know what twitter is all about have have not read anywhere the 'tweets' to which the article refers.

It seems that when you see people at contests who no longer play alot of them are very anti internet.

I check www.4barsrest.com (http://www.4barsrest.com) now, but having them comment on my every split when I was playing I would have found appalling! When I split a few (which i did often enough!) it was laughed at by my band, not the whole banding community.

I know you can choose not to read the website, yet lots of players must check it just to see if they are having fun poked at them whilst trying to enjoy their hobby.

Pondash

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 16:48
Ok!! Someone sent these to me but I know there have been many, many more. If someone else can be bothered to trawl their site then please do...I agree that the quoted extracts indicate a very low level of journalist skill, but not quite to the depth that appears to have been plumbed by the tweets. Perhaps 4br may take a closer look at itself as a result of this.

hobgoblin
28.01.2012, 16:57
I agree that the quoted extracts indicate a very low level of journalist skill, but not quite to the depth that appears to have been plumbed by the tweets. Perhaps 4br may take a closer look at itself as a result of this. Sound advice - in view of their youth it could well be applied to the tweeting lads as well. Perhaps a bit of reflection and growing up would better serve all concerned than being "sacked" from a brass band - it appears they play tenor horn / baritone which is surely a punishment in itself?

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 17:04
Did these tweets do that? The two quotes singled out by 4BR were:
"looks like a serial rapist" and 'that an award was being made for "services to s****ing children"'.
From the BBC web site, “One comment suggested a male musician had received an award for sexually abusing children…”

No asterisks there.


That is no closer to a direct assertion than many of the asides that 4BR turn out week in week out. I find 4BR's holier-than-thou stance on this hypocritical. Given the number of posters complaining about the language used by 4br, how many of you have made any official complaint?

MoominDave
28.01.2012, 17:15
The quote I made was direct from 4BR's coverage in the link in my previous post - the asterisks were presumably inserted by 4BR. The BBC phrase sounds like a paraphrase to me, whereas the 4BR phrase is presented as a direct quote.
I've had a look on Twitter to see if I can verify this, but the offending account seems to have been deleted, so no luck there.

I've never let 4BR know that I find some of their style ugly, spiteful, and casually racist, sexist, and homophobic. But then I wouldn't have done anything about those tweets if I had spotted them at the time. That seems consistent to me. In some ways, 4BR's case is the more serious one, inasmuch as it's been going on for a long time. But when you compare the problem of their writing in that style to the equivalent writing in The Sun, The Star, The Daily Mail, etc., and then consider the relative circulation of those organs, then it really doesn't seem worth bothering about.

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 17:29
I've never let 4BR know that I find some of their style ugly, spiteful, and casually racist, sexist, and homophobic. But then I wouldn't have done anything about those tweets if I had spotted them at the time. That seems consistent to me. In some ways, 4BR's case is the more serious one, inasmuch as it's been going on for a long time. But when you compare the problem of their writing in that style to the equivalent writing in The Sun, The Star, The Daily Mail, etc., and then consider the relative circulation of those organs, then it really doesn't seem worth bothering about.Perhaps turning a blind eye is part of the problem.

towse1972
28.01.2012, 19:06
To me, it's not what the lad has done, it's where he has done it - in my day, the worst that could happen was that you would upset someone in the bar and they might thump you and that would be it. Now these things end up with world-wide coverage and can damage the lad's reputation, his family's and his band's - not to mention, in this case, the people he and others lambasted. I don't really think the family can be blamed here, it's the culture the children are growing up in, where it's ok to put your private thoughts out in the open for millions (possibly) of other people to see. Adults realise how much difficulty that can cause. Children don't. I agree that 4br might have over-reacted a little and, to an extent, they are also partly to blame for the excessive media coverage that is bringing the brass band world into disrepute. How better to reinforce the coarse and vulgar stereotype of cloth cap, clogs and whippet! There was always ten times worse than this going on at Pontins. It's banter. It's a right of passage for teenage boys these days. I really can't help thinking that there is much worse going on in banding........

BikeBadger
28.01.2012, 19:49
It's banter. It's a right of passage for teenage boys these days.

Wow.
Have Dyke sacked Master Bates yet?

TrumpetTom
28.01.2012, 19:56
Here's a thought I've discussed with a few people (not trying to be malicious), because of this, will said young musician competiter be kicked out of the competition and a reserve will take his place, if he gets in trouble with the police or even if they just find out and he's let off??

I've heard people say both ways.

Discuss.... :)

towse1972
28.01.2012, 19:59
I doubt that the police/CPS will see this as anything worth prosecuting......If they do it's a shame. Teenage high-jinx!

Chippy_Cornet
28.01.2012, 20:00
........ I really can't help thinking that there is much worse going on in banding........

Much worse than allegations of serious criminal misconduct?

Its enough to make any parent think twice about allowing kids to join the brass band scene if that is the case......:-?

towse1972
28.01.2012, 20:01
Serious criminal misconduct????? Are you having a laugh?

brassneck
28.01.2012, 20:04
I doubt that the police/CPS will see this as anything worth prosecuting......If they do it's a shame. Teenage high-jinx!

I agree with you Donna but ... give the link of BBC finalist and Twitter comments to an interested news reporter, it might be escalated to more than just the Lincolnshire BBC news pages.

Chippy_Cornet
28.01.2012, 20:04
So what would you call making an allegation of paedophilia (to an innocent person)?

fartycat
28.01.2012, 20:11
It's slander Simon which is a civic matter not criminal.

Chippy_Cornet
28.01.2012, 20:13
Slander is civic - that is what the tweeter is guilty of, but they have accused someone of a serious criminal offence!

tubafran
28.01.2012, 20:23
So what would you call making an allegation of paedophilia (to an innocent person)?

Well as names have been named - the victim in this instance was his Dad.

cornetdiver
28.01.2012, 20:24
just a thought......
do you think this person was in for the whole contest or at the bar for some if not all of it?....
or was there more than one?.....doing it in relay taking it in turn to go to the bar....
by the sounds of it the rants got worse the more the day went on.......(alcohol induced?)

it still shouldnt have happened.......but Im just wondering about the hows and whys

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 21:17
Well as names have been named - the victim in this instance was his Dad.If this was the story line for a new soap, it would never get made. It just gets worse.

tubafran
28.01.2012, 21:29
It wouldnt get written because it wouldnt be believable - however one comment taken out of context has become the headline and justification for so much indignation and outrage.

simonium
28.01.2012, 21:50
Just the one?

The Wherryman
28.01.2012, 22:04
It wouldnt get written because it wouldnt be believable - however one comment taken out of context has become the headline and justification for so much indignation and outrage.I'm still trying to work out in which context a public comment from a teenager that his father is a child sex abuser would be considered acceptable.

mdfreeman
28.01.2012, 22:21
I'm still trying to work out in which context a public comment from a teenager that his father is a child sex abuser would be considered acceptable.

Just when you think it can't get any stranger......It does :confused:

Dr Bob
29.01.2012, 00:30
I'm still trying to work out in which context a public comment from a teenager that his father is a child sex abuser would be considered acceptable.

Nothing surprises me from that kid. Fantastic player but best leaving it at that.

Toxophile
29.01.2012, 02:25
Let's get this into perspective and stop acting like Daily Mail columnists. We all make mistakes online from time to time. I teach OU students about Netiquette and have got things wrong my self. A few years back at work, a colleague and friend got engaged and sent an email saying how happy he and his fiancée were and how she was excited to show everyone her ring. I saw an obvious smutty innuendo and hit the reply button asking when she was coming to our office to show everyone her ring. For the sake of brevity, let's say this did not go down well, especially as I made the mistake of hitting reply all.

I was faced with a very angry lady who initially took this very badly and wanted to involve HR, however I spoke to her personally and apologised for a spur of the moment comment and a misunderstanding of her perspective. There was no intent to cause hurt, but an extension of internal office banter to a wider audience was I'll conceived. I don't see this incident as anything too different, except that there are many people here who were not the subject of comment who seem to be taking offence by proxy.

The matter is one for the involved parties to sort out themselves, I less there were specific threats, then the police will not be interested, they are too concerned but the Twitter Joke Trial and it's potential fallout for that. If there is a case for libel then that is a civil and therefore very expensive matter for those directly involved. As for the rest of us, remember, it is very easy to find yourself in the position of posting something someone finds annoying, don't get into a flame war and ad
sk yourself, if you'd worked for years to get somewhere you really wanted to be and then made a few silly comments, would you expect to be treated fairly and given a strong warning as to your future behaviour as I was at work, or would you expect to be summarily dismissed?

Powhatan I really hope is that the high minded attitude exposed in this thread does not spell the end of careers in banding. High horses can be difficult things to find yourself falling from.

Pete Scott

mikelyons
29.01.2012, 08:44
There was always ten times worse than this going on at Pontins. It's banter. It's a right of passage for teenage boys these days. I really can't help thinking that there is much worse going on in banding........
I agree, Donna, but at least it's generally going on in private. It's the washing of dirty laundry in public, with the perpetrator apparently completely unconcerned, which is problematic. I think the lad might need his moral compass adjusting! :-) I wonder if he votes Tory?)

Alyn James
29.01.2012, 09:18
Let's get this into perspective and stop acting like Daily Mail columnists. We all make mistakes online from time to time.


The problem is that this idiot lurches from one stupid mistake to another with alarming regularity, seemingly learning/being taught nothing from each fan-hit. He's not a talented boy to be indulged, he's a talented adult who needs to be taught a lesson.
I have been impressed with the Brighouse people. Swift action/take it on the chin/move on. Mr. K is already putting this affair behind him whilst Mr. B is yet to demonstrate any awareness of the stupidity of his actions.

BigHorn
29.01.2012, 09:28
I'm still trying to work out in which context a public comment from a teenager that his father is a child sex abuser would be considered acceptable.

In the context that it was a serious complaint - OR as in this case, he and his father saw it as a bit of boisterous banter. It is for his father to decide if he is offended not you.

Alyn James
29.01.2012, 09:38
In the context that it was a serious complaint - OR as in this case, he and his father saw it as a bit of boisterous banter. It is for his father to decide if he is offended not you.

But this comment, like all the others, was made IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. Not in their kitchen, garden, car, band bus.....

brassneck
29.01.2012, 09:40
In the context that it was a serious complaint - OR as in this case, he and his father saw it as a bit of boisterous banter. It is for his father to decide if he is offended not you.

What about the use of 4BR's logo? ("At first, the Twitter account was used to try to parody the Twitter feed of 4barsrest.com and used the same logo." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-16726674)

Daisy Duck
29.01.2012, 09:47
What about the use of 4BR's logo? ("At first, the Twitter account was used to try to parody the Twitter feed of 4barsrest.com and used the same logo." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-16726674)

It used the 4br logo as the background but had the word BOC superimposed over it, I didn't even notice the 4br logo had been used until @bocbarsrest posted a screen grab from their phone of a direct message from 4barsrest asking them to stop using the logo. Which they did.

The Godfather
29.01.2012, 11:33
I agree, Donna, but at least it's generally going on in private. It's the washing of dirty laundry in public, with the perpetrator apparently completely unconcerned, which is problematic. I think the lad might need his moral compass adjusting! :-) I wonder if he votes Tory?)
Are you suggesting that Tories are the only people with morality problems ? You are now doing a dis-service to banding Mr Lyons. Please leave this one for another thread.

The Wherryman
29.01.2012, 11:56
In the context that it was a serious complaint - OR as in this case, he and his father saw it as a bit of boisterous banter. It is for his father to decide if he is offended not you.In none of my posts on this subject have I claimed that anyone was offended. I entirely agree that the subject(s) of the comment(s) are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves whether or not they are offended by them.

But I think you are missing the point here. A number of people have obviously found the tweeting to be offensive, i.e. “causing anger, displeasure, resentment or affront”. I actually referred to “Something very unsavoury” happening i.e. “objectionable, distasteful”. I stand by that comment.

Perhaps you think that the reputation of banding has, somehow, been enhanced by it.

Anno Draconis
29.01.2012, 13:22
I don't really think the family can be blamed here, it's the culture the children are growing up in, where it's ok to put your private thoughts out in the open for millions (possibly) of other people to see. Adults realise how much difficulty that can cause. Children don't.

Really? You sure about that?

I was at Butlins, and read quite a lot of the "offending material" on the day. I'm not a twitter user, but it was freely available to anyone who wanted to see it. The difference is, Twitter users who were looking for #Butlinsbrassband tag, or whatever it was, apparently had NO CHOICE but to read it all, and that's a critical distinction to make. This sort of stuff has been around for a while - I remember reading a mock retrospective of the 2008 Nationals on facebook a few years back, which was like a cross between 4BR and Viz. Hilarious in places, but not something you'd want the world to read necessarily. However, I only found that because someone sent me a link, and you'd have to be looking for it to find it. That's not the case here. That's the first issue.

My band came in for a bit of stick, nothing I'd be offended by (especially as we were, shall we say, not quite as good as we'd have hoped on both days :oops:). It was noticeable how the style changed over the course of the weekend - Saturday's were, on occasion, hilarious, but as the weekend wore on it got darker, more juvenile and less funny. Now I understand why. I have to say that I can't imagine the "younger perpetrator" being on the receiving end of anything more than a talking to (if that) from his band. The management seems to be very much in the hands of the MD there, and it doesn't appear to be his style to sack players for misbehaving "out of school". B&R, with their massive reliance on public subscription, appear to have a very different management structure and a more robust approach to anything that may conceivably bring the band's public image into disrepute - hence their swift action, presumably. I'd have to wonder what the BBC YMOTY people might make of it, though. Probably best for the person concerned if they remain unaware of it, I'd imagine.

I can understand Iwan taking the hump over someone nicking his logo, and wanting to distance his site from the twitter feed at the weekend. That's fair enough, and commercially sensible. However, I'm disturbed at the lengths he seems to have gone to to try and provoke people to complain - from what I've seen Lincolnshire Police might be prepared to act, but only if someone who was personally flamed complains, and 4BR seem desperate for that to happen. Hence the pushing of this minor parochial banding storm in a teacup into the face of the national media. As we can see from the length of this thread, it doesn't take much to get a whole gang of people who weren't at the contest, haven't read the comments and don't know any of the people concerned huffing and going red in the face about things they've heard second or third hand. Nobody who was personally slagged off has complained to Twitter, the rozzers or the bands concerned, to my knowledge; possibly because most of them know the twitterers personally and took it as banter rather than malicious insult. There seems to have been a self-promotion and self-aggrandisement agenda on the part of 4BarsRest in this matter, rather than any interest in reporting facts - that's the second issue.

(and inidentally, I shall be interested to see how the 4BR writing style, such as it is, changes in view of the things that have been said about their hypocritical propensity to make unsavoury and occasionally homophobic analogies - certainly any gay banders out there must have felt pretty damned uncomfortable reading their purple prose at times through the years.)

Finally, it seems to me a tragedy that all discussion and reporting of the best banding weekend of the year by far has been kicked out of the window. The Butlins thread has died on its ar$e, while this one continues to go from strength to ill-informed strength. There has been precious little comment about the entertainments contest on the Sunday, the Flowers/Youth Brass 2000 concert on the Friday night, the Syd Lawrence Orchestra on Saturday, the Grimethorpe reunion band on the Sunday, the "blow for heroes", or the general sociable brilliance of getting 3000+ band geeks on the same site at the same weekend for a great weekend of banding. Nah, stuff that. We'd all much rather talk about the bad news. I know bad news is more interesting; it sells newspapers and gets people reading websites, but isn't it a shame that instead of talking about all the multitude of good stuff that happened at Butlins, we're focussing on the one bad thing - the ill-thought-out actions of a few guys who, while undoubtedly brilliant players, possibly aren't playing with a full deck. I can't imagine that it will affect the future of the contest, given that Butlins' motivation in staging the contest in the first place is to fill chalets (and more importantly, bars and restaurants) during an otherwise dead January weekend, but it doesn't do the image of brass bands any favours at all. In Switzerland, or Norway, or the USA, they'd have been patting themselves on the back for a great weekend of well-organised, decent quality, entertaining banding. Here, we're not interested in all that, because we have a single negative thing that we'd much rather pick away at. That's my third, and frankly biggest issue.

So,

1) If they were going to do this sort of stuff, clearly twitter was a stupid place to do it. Create a closed facebook group, or something, and invite your mates in. Don't broadcast it to the world, you idiots.

2) It looks like whatever action was going to be taken has been taken. Doesn't seem much point in campaigning for further sanction, especially if you weren't personally attacked. It's made banding look even more stupid, to the few people who read the BBC Lincolnshire news website, but that's largely 4BR's doing from what I can see. Thanks for that useful contribution, lads.

3) Seems like yet again, we're more interested in the stuff that's wrong with banding than the stuff that's right. We're riveted by tales of disaster, sackings and upheaval, and like nothing better than proclaiming to the world that everything's gone to hell in a handcart (and in some cases, pointing out that this "would never have happened when I was young"). That's not a banding problem, that's a British problem seen in almost every area of society, but in a hobby that badly needs to publicly proclaim its few triumphs as loudly as possible, this determination to publicly focus on the stuff that's rubbish to the exclusion of the many good things, simply serves to hasten the decline in interest.

hobgoblin
29.01.2012, 14:21
I think Mr Bakers post says it all. With the passing of time those baying for more blood are losing any moral high ground they had to start with. The "reputation of banding" is pretty much where it was before all of this - only we know we exist for the most part. I'm sure action has been taken by the band / Md of Mr Bates as they deem appropriate. The fact that another band has dealt with it differently is their business. In view of this, and that it seems no one has taken any civil action against those involved suggests that the matter may be closed? I'm a bit thick and have no legal expertise, but perhaps it is time for the morally outraged to "put up or shut up" by pursuing a civil action lest they be accused of harassment / defamation as a result of their constant calls for further sanctions against the boys involved? Maybe it would be more prudent to let this sad matter recede into the past and move on.

The Wherryman
29.01.2012, 14:45
...but perhaps it is time for the morally outraged to "put up or shut up" by pursuing a civil action lest they be accused of harassment / defamation as a result of their constant calls for further sanctions against the boys involved?Where are all these potentially harassing and/or defamatory calls being made? I would have thought that if any of the posts on here fell into those categories, the mods would have been jumping in PDQ.

tromwinst
29.01.2012, 15:54
OK - how about we draw a line underneath it now. I'm sure The band that he plays for haven't got to where they are now without dealing with things like this in the correct way. After all unless you are one of the people mentioned it's nothing to do with you anyway.

How about we now spent more time thinking about how we can promote either your band or banding in general rather than keep going over the same things. As clearly from the 11 pages above nothing has changed, happened or been cleared up and the comments being made are not solution based just keeping that big spoon stirring.

Time to leave it now and move on and try and put more time in to promoting brass bands in a good light rather than thinking up long winded posts on here that quite frankly are also doing no good for brass banding either?

BikeBadger
29.01.2012, 16:17
Just got in. So they still haven't sacked him? Shameful.

tromwinst
29.01.2012, 16:31
Just got in. So they still haven't sacked him? Shameful.

What will sacking him achieve? Nothing at all.
What is shameful is you, like many others on here that may not be directly involved in the tweets but are continuing to destroying even further the face of brass banding. This could of been dealt with and forgotten about if people would let that happen. The sooner this happens the better.

Steve
29.01.2012, 17:35
What will sacking him achieve? Nothing at all.
What is shameful is you, like many others on here that may not be directly involved in the tweets but are continuing to destroying even further the face of brass banding. This could of been dealt with and forgotten about if people would let that happen. The sooner this happens the better.

This is an alarming post, however as I can only assume you are unaware of how this all got blown up to such a scale I think I should elaborate.

4br raised the issue of the logo, it was changed. 4br alerted the organisers to the rival commentary who asked Andy Kennedy to leave the hall and stop posting, which he did. 4br published the sorry tale of the malicious posts after that point in time on the world wide web, they also gave quotes to the BBC reporter who was made aware of the article. A letter from Jonny Bates was sent before anyone knew the extent of this to name Andy Kennedy as the guilty party, one can only speculate how his band were made aware of his involvement but at that point only the organisers and 4br had any vested interest in it. Jonnys band were aware of this letter (to the police and contest organisers) and a copy of this making its way to West Riding was what resulted in B&R sacking Andy Kennedy.

Frankly, the biggest brass band news source in the world stirred this whole thing up, there is no direct competition so Im sure they wont be too worried and 'we' will all still have to use them as our news source.

4br have made this public and their recent retrospective continued to fan the flames which I am sure isn't doing their online hits and revenue any harm! Their actions caused a player to be sacked and caused all this public debate. Personally, I find the inner circle of bandings hierarchy to be nothing more than a vehicle for its own protection and interests, which is why something like the initial (non malicious) tweets from a whole new source were complained about.

The sooner people do start questioning THAT and proposing solutions, the better.

centralbankofdad
29.01.2012, 17:48
Frankly, the biggest brass band news source in the world stirred this whole thing up, there is no direct competition so Im sure they wont be too worried and 'we' will all still have to use them as our news source.

4br have made this public and their recent retrospective continued to fan the flames which I am sure isn't doing their online hits and revenue any harm! Their actions caused a player to be sacked and caused all this public debate. Personally, I find the inner circle of bandings hierarchy to be nothing more than a vehicle for its own protection and interests, which is why something like the initial (non malicious) tweets from a whole new source were complained about.

The sooner people do start questioning THAT and proposing solutions, the better.

:clap: Agreed.

tromwinst
29.01.2012, 18:30
:clap: Agreed.

We are after the same thing here. Stopping 4br from fanning it any further and for the brass band scene to be out of the headlines from whatever media outlet. It's not helping anyone.

tromwinst
29.01.2012, 18:34
This is an alarming post, however as I can only assume you are unaware of how this all got blown up to such a scale I think I should elaborate.

4br raised the issue of the logo, it was changed. 4br alerted the organisers to the rival commentary who asked Andy Kennedy to leave the hall and stop posting, which he did. 4br published the sorry tale of the malicious posts after that point in time on the world wide web, they also gave quotes to the BBC reporter who was made aware of the article. A letter from Jonny Bates was sent before anyone knew the extent of this to name Andy Kennedy as the guilty party, one can only speculate how his band were made aware of his involvement but at that point only the organisers and 4br had any vested interest in it. Jonnys band were aware of this letter (to the police and contest organisers) and a copy of this making its way to West Riding was what resulted in B&R sacking Andy Kennedy.

Frankly, the biggest brass band news source in the world stirred this whole thing up, there is no direct competition so Im sure they wont be too worried and 'we' will all still have to use them as our news source.

4br have made this public and their recent retrospective continued to fan the flames which I am sure isn't doing their online hits and revenue any harm! Their actions caused a player to be sacked and caused all this public debate. Personally, I find the inner circle of bandings hierarchy to be nothing more than a vehicle for its own protection and interests, which is why something like the initial (non malicious) tweets from a whole new source were complained about.

The sooner people do start questioning THAT and proposing solutions, the better.


This is not an alarming post and you assume wrong about not knowing the story. I still can't see how pushing this any further will help any party?

BikeBadger
29.01.2012, 18:44
This is an alarming post, however as I can only assume you are unaware of how this all got blown up to such a scale I think I should elaborate.

4br raised the issue of the logo, it was changed. 4br alerted the organisers to the rival commentary who asked Andy Kennedy to leave the hall and stop posting, which he did. 4br published the sorry tale of the malicious posts after that point in time on the world wide web, they also gave quotes to the BBC reporter who was made aware of the article. A letter from Jonny Bates was sent before anyone knew the extent of this to name Andy Kennedy as the guilty party, one can only speculate how his band were made aware of his involvement but at that point only the organisers and 4br had any vested interest in it. Jonnys band were aware of this letter (to the police and contest organisers) and a copy of this making its way to West Riding was what resulted in B&R sacking Andy Kennedy.



Have I read this right? Are you saying this was all Andy Kennedy's fault and that Jonny Bates is entirely innocent? If so, then justice has been done. If not, Andy Kennedy must be feeling pretty p***** off to be left high and dry by young Jonny in this way.

ploughboy
29.01.2012, 19:44
I wonder if he votes Tory?

He's not old enough, yet!

Dr Bob
30.01.2012, 01:10
What will sacking him achieve? Nothing at all.
What is shameful is you, like many others on here that may not be directly involved in the tweets but are continuing to destroying even further the face of brass banding. This could of been dealt with and forgotten about if people would let that happen. The sooner this happens the better.

Surely you don't know him, otherwise you'd change your tune.

blue juice
30.01.2012, 01:42
To be honest I found a lot of the facebook posts or tweets really quite funny. There were some, especially on the sunday, that started to take things too far and one can only speculate as to what influence alcohol may have had on the situation. I didn't see anything racist on twitter or facebook either though it's possible I may have missed it.

As far as I'm concerned, pushing the issue further is only going to make things worse and attract more negative publicity. Both individuals have been dealt with by their respective bands, to the full extent that they are going to be anyway, there aren't going to be charges brought against those involved so a witchhunt isn't going to do any good, time to move on?

ophicliede
30.01.2012, 10:18
Surely people who are making remarks like this in the public domain should be banned from contesting for bringing the movement into disrepute. They obviously have a problem if they have to make these type of remarks, they have no place in the brass band world.

Laserbeam bass
30.01.2012, 10:34
I would imagine that at some point in our lives we have all been party to, or found funny, content that we would not wish to enter into the public domain.

“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone"

It is not up to anyone, other than the bands involved as to what sanctions are made against the individuals, or the Police and CPS should it get that far, which in all likely hood it won't.

If you don't like the outcome of a certain bands decision then take it up with that band. However, you will probably get short shrift as technically, it is none of your business.

I didn't read any of the twitter or facebook comments, and have probably heard and seen a lot worse living in the East End of London, whether it be at Football Matches, or when the National Front or English Defence League take up one of their causes and go out on the streets.

Old news, so let's all move on and get something positive from Butlin's rather than feeding this media "frenzy".

Pav
30.01.2012, 10:36
Would that be a lifetime ban or maybe just 5 or 10 years?

hobgoblin
30.01.2012, 11:06
Surely people who are making remarks like this in the public domain should be banned from contesting for bringing the movement into disrepute. They obviously have a problem if they have to make these type of remarks, they have no place in the brass band world. Surely a ban from the bar and twitter would be more effective? I think the thing that is fueling most of this moral outrage is that the guys from top bands seem to have regarded it as a days "sport" to come to Skeg and laugh at bandings lower echelons, It's a crude analogy, but its rather like Usain Bolt taking a day off training to laugh at the paralympics - which would hurt his reputation more than his "victims" in the long run. The top bands would do well to remember that they need us folk from the "w***er sections" (as I heard them called at the areas a few years ago by some "top" bandsmen) to buy their cd's and attend their concerts.

Red Elvis
30.01.2012, 11:13
I'd go with LBB and Anno Draonis on this. I can understand Mr Fox and his team wanting to protect the 4br branding but the fires do appear to have been stoked somewhat for what are , as tasteless as it has been at times , the actions of a couple of lads barely out of short trousers. Stupid , yes , immature , unquestionably , and offensive too no doubt but requiring police involvement and wider media exposure ? I have my doubts.

I would hope that the parents of the alleged protagonists have had words , and in the case of at least one the band has acted. Assuming the youngster concerned loves his banding then being given the spanish archer from B&R must have had an effect in terms of punishment.

With regards to Mr Bates , if indeed he was not involved then he is probably owed an apology from some that have posted his name. However , if he was and he has dropped Mr Kennedy in it (and short of investigating his mobile phone / computer I'll guess we'll never know ) then the dishonourable nature of that action would compound the original offense and in some ways is even worse.

Kiz7
30.01.2012, 11:38
Surely a ban from the bar and twitter would be more effective? I think the thing that is fueling most of this moral outrage is that the guys from top bands seem to have regarded it as a days "sport" to come to Skeg and laugh at bandings lower echelons, It's a crude analogy, but its rather like Usain Bolt taking a day off training to laugh at the paralympics - which would hurt his reputation more than his "victims" in the long run. The top bands would do well to remember that they need us folk from the "w***er sections" (as I heard them called at the areas a few years ago by some "top" bandsmen) to buy their cd's and attend their concerts.

How would a ban from the bar help? Isn't the main culprit only 16 anyway so surely he wasn't drinking in the Butlins bar as that would mean he or someone else on his behalf broke the laws regarding the sale of alcohol to minors. That certainly could hurt Butlins reputation (and they could have their license revoked).

The further into the public eye this gets the uglier it becomes as it seems to highlight all the negatives and prejudices about brass bands that can only hurt the "movement". Perhaps it's time bury it and move on and celebrate what was good about Butlins and this last weekend at the RNCM and in Gwent at the Youth Band Festival which was fantastic (no bar, no internet coverage and a fabulous day out.)

Anno Draconis
30.01.2012, 11:44
Surely people who are making remarks like this in the public domain should be banned from contesting for bringing the movement into disrepute. They obviously have a problem if they have to make these type of remarks, they have no place in the brass band world.
And who would implement and police that ban?

More importantly, who would decide whether a ban is appropriate and hand down the sentence? Butlins? The Registry? 4BR? Some sort of unelected Star Chamber of banding? Once a ban is decreed, who decides if it's fair? What/where/who is the court of appeal? Otherwise we've got the Wrexham Brass/Welsh Area Committee debacle all over again. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

In the wise words of Al Murray - you didn't think that through.

Anno Draconis
30.01.2012, 11:47
How would a ban from the bar help? Isn't the main culprit only 16 anyway so surely he wasn't drinking in the Butlins bar as that would mean he or someone else on his behalf broke the laws regarding the sale of alcohol to minors.

Yeah, 'cos that never happens ;)

Fully agree with your point about moving on, though, so I'll make this my last two penn'orth on this thread.

Kiz7
30.01.2012, 11:55
Yeah, 'cos that never happens ;)

Fully agree with your point about moving on, though, so I'll make this my last two penn'orth on this thread.

Exactly, it happens all the time at band contests (often without any major problems) so I wouldn't think that this mess being in the public or police eye is a good thing at all as it just highlights the other laws that regularly get broken at these events......

ISBBBb2
30.01.2012, 12:40
As someone who was one of the majority of people who took part at butlins (without feeling the need to tweet anything untoward) I feel the whole event has been totally overshadowed by the twittergate saga and to be honest am becoming increasingly bored and infuriated by certain members on here in particular who seem intent on ensuring the whole thing gets dragged out for as long as possible. I was somewhat appalled and let down by the Butlins retrospective on 4barsrest which seemed to be used as a chance for someone (Iwan?) to 'vent ones spleen' towards the "culprits" of the weekends activities. That in its self highlighted just how unprofessional we can be.

Many of you may be aware that Sky TV has taken an interest in the brass band movement, even filming with the Grimethorpe band in the initial stages of producing a documentary about Brass Bands! (Who knows, we may at last have some positive media stories for us to enjoy!)


Whilst I do not in anyway support Boc and his mates, I also do not support the public witch hunt that has ensued. Those involved will be dealt with, of that there is no doubt, but why do we seem so intent to devote our attention on the negatives (and haven’t we had enough of them recently). Can we, as committed brass musicians, work towards making this Brass Band movement something we can be proud of?

If your answer is no, leave your instrument by the door and thanks for all you've done!

chiephonium
30.01.2012, 12:43
Right people, i've followed this thread long enough and feel its time to make my one and only post on the matter. Those who know me will vouch that I'm and honest guy, and am no liar.

Firstly, having read the numerous posts by several, including particularly Hobgoblin an Red Elvis, I'd like to clarify a simple point. I'm 26 years of age so the constant references to being a 'kid', 'boy', 'youngster', 'youth' or 'barely out of short trousers' are slightly patronising.

Also, the fact that many of you seem to feel that I was naive and misguided to be part of this are also wrong, I entered into it knowing what was at stake. I've been around the block a bit and am pretty capable of making a balanced decision.

The most accurate perception of what happened seems to come in the shape of Steve's contribution to this thread, please take a look back to his comments, it will save me some typing time. If I typed it out I would be duplicating what he has said.

Another thing that needs clarifying, which has been commonly misquoted on this thread, is the fact that all the comments on the twitter page were actually on the hashtag of #Boclins2012 and nothing to do with Butlins, as you all seem to think. This is key in explaining that the comments had to be found, and were not there for all and sundry to read, as has been thought. The account was also set up to require followers to be authorised. Despite the thoughts of Iwan Fox in his postcard from Butlins, there was no 'luddite approach to technology' in this whatsoever.

Please take a look at the 2 facebook status' I have posted since last weekend regarding the matter:


- 26/01/2012
"was openly involved in the controversial twitter account, however, I can assure everyone that any comments relating to paedophiles, racism and the holocaust came from someone else's phone.

I'm sure the person responsible for those comments will step forward in the near future ........"


- 27/01/2012
"So, it appears that naming and shaming is key to survival, or that certainly appears to be the case for Jonny Bates (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1306584249) - the creator of @bocbarsrest.

Whilst i'm not the type of person to whistle-blow, having been named by said horn player as responsible, in his apology to all and sundry, i feel it only fair to do the same.

I'm not one to make idle accusations either, i have proof of this.

My intentions were to keep the @bocbarsrest coverage as light hearted and witty banter - alternative coverage of contesting to what we are used to, but after i withdrew my involvement on the request of the organisers things descended into the realms of darkness.

My position at B&R has been taken away, without the chance for defence, following the far too public witch-hunt, led by my suspicions by two well known brass band media outlets, I wonder whether said horn player will retain his position???

We will see.

Sleep well my people. x"


Now, if you didn't understand that, an admission of my involvment but not naming names on Thursday. Having been sacked from my band based on the letter of confession from Jonny and knowing that he hadn't been sacked, in the interests of salvaging some of my reputation I posted the second on Friday morning.

I realise that the account and comments went out of control, but can only assure you all that after being removed and asked to cease my involvement by Stan, whilst Woodfalls Band were on stage on Sunday, I did stop - and the comments went rapidly downhill from there. Believe what you want but; my conscience is clear and if this is investigated by the police then, and only then, will there be proof that the defamatory comments were not mine.

I will now offer an apology to those mentioned in the feed, contest organisers and hosts (none of whom to my knowledge have complained to the police).

I will not however apologise to 4br, whose narrow minded self centred-ness has brought this far too into the public eye, and have probably caused more damage to the movement's credibility than the twitter account itself. Not to mention their constant phone calls around banding management (which are still going on) calling for sackings and punishment. This is not sour grapes at all, you all know I've lost my position in B&R and as Alyn James says, have taken this on the chin and moved on, but I think its about time that 4br wound their necks in and stuck to their remit; reporting on banding not trying to run it.

Its up to you what to think of me, but I felt it only fair to let you have a testimony from the horses mouth. As I mentioned before, I'm an honest guy. I hope you can see fit to respect my honesty.

I have no regrets.

Leyfy
30.01.2012, 12:56
Firstly, having read the numerous posts by several, including particularly Hobgoblin an Red Elvis, I'd like to clarify a simple point. I'm 26 years of age so the constant references to being a 'kid', 'boy', 'youngster', 'youth' or 'barely out of short trousers' are slightly patronising.

.

Red Elvis wasn't being patronising, he genuinely was under the impression you were still a teenager. Not from anything you wrote, but he just (wrongly) made the assumption (as I did) that you were around the same age as Jonny Bates.

Red Elvis
30.01.2012, 13:11
Fair play to you Mr Kennedy - apologies for the incorrect assumption on my part.

Alyn James
30.01.2012, 13:20
Just a quick reply to Andy Kennedy: :clap:
I see your rehabilitation is well under way. Best wishes.

Leyfy
30.01.2012, 13:30
This is key in explaining that the comments had to be found, and were not there for all and sundry to read, as has been thought. The account was also set up to require followers to be authorised.


Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but I wasn't authorised to follow that feed but I saw every comment. Purely because the poster made a quite personal comment about a bandsman I know (not even about Butlins at this point!), and was subsiquently reposted by someone I actually follow on Twitter, and appeared on my newsfeed. When I clicked on the origional poster (as is very easy to do in Twitter, with the use of the @ symbol), it took me straight to the BocBarsRest feed. I didn't 'follow' it though, and I certainly wasn't authorised at any point.

I'm not sure if the account was made public later in the weekend, as this was Sunday evening when I got home, and therefore you were unaware that it was made public for everyone to see? However, at the time I had no idea it was going to blow up into this!

JimboFB
30.01.2012, 14:07
Good on you Andy, cant say fairer than that.

All the best - hope you get yourself sorted with a band soon!

The Wherryman
30.01.2012, 14:52
Its up to you what to think of me...Andy, we've never met and are unlikely to. The comments I have made have been directed towards the nature of the (reported) conduct and the consequences, rather than towards the individuals involved, precisely for the reason that I don't know them. Anyone with any interest could have looked at tMP profiles and FB (as did I) to gain a little more insight, rather than 'shoot from the hip'. I note that your FB page is still open but someone else's is now blank.

Throughout my managerial career, I always had more respect for someone who admitted, and faced up to, their mistakes and learned from them than someone who ducked and dived and tried to blame anyone but themselves. A previous poster suggested that things are picking up for you. I hope that is so, and wish you well.

I was going to put this in a pm, but as I have made public comments previously, I decided to make my feelings public as well. I am not being patronising - I do wish you well.

IanHeard
30.01.2012, 15:44
Good on you Andy, cant say fairer than that.

All the best - hope you get yourself sorted with a band soon!

Fully concur.
Anyone else dream of being good enough to be sacked by B&R? :)

Daisy Duck
30.01.2012, 16:37
Well done Andy for a very honest post and having the guts to stand by what happened.

I was at Butlins and followed bocbarsrest almost from the beginning after a friend retweeted something they'd written. On the Saturday, most of what was written was just a parody of the 4barsrest live coverage and some of it was very, very funny. The comments weren't always kind about bands but they were clearly tongue in cheek and not malicious. The tone definitely changed on Saturday night and I was less amused by what was written on Sunday in particular and I 'unfollowed' at that point. However, I've seen much much worse things written on twitter. This all seems to have been totally blown out of proportion and it seems that the two bands of the people involved have chosen to take different action, which is their decision, even if it seems unfair.

This was my first year at Butlins and I loved it. The memories I will take away with me are listening to some great bands, playing in the Blow for Heroes band, drinking, swimming, meeting some really lovely people. Not some twitter posts which overstepped the line. I hope the whole thing is forgotten soon and that Andy finds another great band to play with.

Matthew
30.01.2012, 17:51
Disgusting, childish, inappropriate behaviour that only serves to bring the Brass Band movement into disrepute. Most people will pass their judgment on what was read/seen on the BBC, which is obviously negative in its nature.

I saw it first on 4BR, but being picked up by the Beeb too only serves to make our fantastic movement look very poor as a result of the actions of some silly, small, little people. :-?

Dr Bob
30.01.2012, 18:27
Good luck in the future Andy....I hope you get straight back into banding. Personally I'd steer clear of Bradford :cool:

Haven't heard anything from up the road, Nick must be really struggling to find a replacement 1st Horn.

Steve
30.01.2012, 21:33
Andy, if we all chuck in £5 a piece will you do #BocIsBack and cover all the area contests for us as now you are sacked / fired / finished etc

sheilakey
30.01.2012, 22:14
The problem is that this idiot lurches from one stupid mistake to another with alarming regularity, seemingly learning/being taught nothing from each fan-hit. He's not a talented boy to be indulged, he's a talented adult who needs to be taught a lesson.
I have been impressed with the Brighouse people. Swift action/take it on the chin/move on. Mr. K is already putting this affair behind him whilst Mr. B is yet to demonstrate any awareness of the stupidity of his actions.


This post hits the nail right bang on the head! You obviously know him well.

I have absolutely no time for someone that openly brags that he's a better player than his Principal! Dream on......

fatcontroler
01.02.2012, 13:33
This post hits the nail right bang on the head! You obviously know him well.

I have absolutely no time for someone that openly brags that he's a better player than his Principal! Dream on......

If this lad reads the remarks about him on here then perhaps he will realise he isnt the 'big i am' that he likes to think he is.....and those of us that him think differently

tkhbss
01.02.2012, 18:47
If this lad reads the remarks about him on here then perhaps he will realise he isnt the 'big i am' that he likes to think he is.....and those of us that him think differently
Of course he reads the remarks. I would think that he has now had the biggest lesson in his life, and he must know that if he has been given a chance it will be his last. Let's move on.

Dr Bob
02.02.2012, 00:16
Of course he reads the remarks. I would think that he has now had the biggest lesson in his life, and he must know that if he has been given a chance it will be his last. Let's move on.

It'll go in one ear and out of the other, leopards never change their spots.....

marc71178
02.02.2012, 00:56
And neither do trolls.

Dr Bob
02.02.2012, 17:44
And neither do trolls.

Wow......its Master B posting :clap:

WoodenFlugel
02.02.2012, 17:51
No it isn't (FYI).

To be honest I think everything has been said that is going to be said about this now so, thread locked in the interests of moving on.