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TrumpetTom
30.05.2011, 18:02
Another one from me: enjoy! .... and feedback obvs :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfk6R8fSOxY

simonium
30.05.2011, 19:30
Total Broadbent. :)

Andrew Norman
31.05.2011, 03:52
And arranged with appropriate copyright clearance of course..........

TrumpetTom
31.05.2011, 11:11
Completely educational, I've made no money what so ever.

Andrew Norman
31.05.2011, 11:26
Sadly it doesn't make any difference..

TrumpetTom
31.05.2011, 11:27
I thought there were educational exemptions?

Andrew Norman
31.05.2011, 11:35
I don't think you will find that arranging copyright material is covered.

simonium
31.05.2011, 11:37
Yes, how dare you do something for fun. ;) With arrangements like yours I fancy the Obrasso sweatshop beckons.

TrumpetTom
31.05.2011, 11:41
I did it for the Orchestra actually, drove the builders up the wall last summer! So should I leave it up?

Anglo Music Press
31.05.2011, 21:14
I thought there were educational exemptions?

Don't think so .......

You would do well to check out the tMP Fact Sheet. It's very good!

http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19730

MoominDave
01.06.2011, 10:52
You know there's something wrong with a portion of the law when it contradicts the intuitions and expectations of almost everyone who comes into intelligent and uncynical contact with it...

But it's the law.

Anglo Music Press
01.06.2011, 10:57
You know there's something wrong with a portion of the law when it contradicts the intuitions and expectations of almost everyone who comes into intelligent and uncynical contact with it...

But it's the law.

You might also think there is something wrong when arranging The Birdie Song is considered educational...

I'm rather comforted that there is a law against it!

:rolleyes:

MoominDave
01.06.2011, 11:21
You might also think there is something wrong when arranging The Birdie Song is considered educational...



A symptom of a diseased society?

Andrew Norman
01.06.2011, 12:04
A symptom of a diseased society?

Bird flu ?

Pauli Walnuts
01.06.2011, 17:06
And have you heard? Bird is the word....
dS74WjF2wOE

tgfoxley
01.06.2011, 20:17
Better than the last arrangement of this I played...

...12 cornet players blowing across tuned J20 and Coke bottles

TrumpetTom
02.06.2011, 10:23
Are we sure it's not in the public domain? There's seems to be that many midi files and copies and stuff on the Internet and it ain't always 70 years after the death is it? Enescus not been dead that long I don't think and legend is in the public domain becuase I got my copy from imslp.

MoominDave
02.06.2011, 10:57
It's always 70 years in the UK, sorry. IMSLP makes things available that are public domain in the US, which has a less strict copyright term, and then puts the onus on you, the downloader, to check that it is legal for you to download it in the country where you are - they put up a very clear notice screen whenever you request anything spelling this out. So it is legal for IMSLP to put up an Enescu piece - but because he died 'only' 56 years ago, in 1955, it is not legal for you to download it in the UK, and quite ill-advised to advertise that you're doing it...

Just because something's widely done, it doesn't mean that it's legal - what it does mean is that lawmakers should give priority to reexamining the relevant legislation, as a law that makes criminals out of well-meaning people is clearly out of step with the society that it polices.

Anglo Music Press
02.06.2011, 11:04
Are we sure it's not in the public domain? There's seems to be that many midi files and copies and stuff on the Internet and it ain't always 70 years after the death is it? Enescus not been dead that long I don't think and legend is in the public domain becuase I got my copy from imslp.

From the Enescu page on imslp:-

Works by this person are most likely not public domain (http://imslp.org/wiki/Public_Domain) within the EU and in those countries where the copyright term is life+70 years. They may also be protected by copyright in the USA, unless published before 1923 (http://imslp.org/wiki/Pre-1923_copyright_law), in which case they are PD there as well. However, this person's works are public domain (http://imslp.org/wiki/Public_Domain) in Canada (where IMSLP is hosted), and in other countries where the copyright term is life+50 years.

It would be a good idea for you to familiarise yourself with current copyright law if you want to do some arranging. Much good stuff is available to you and copyright material can be licenced. Or you could move to Canada.... :)

TrumpetTom
02.06.2011, 11:14
Ah just read that. They should make it more like YouTube where it blocks it if it's illegal in your country! Anyway the video isn't listed anymore and I'm looking into getting copyright permission becuase then can publish it too..... If anyone will have it :p btw does the fact I spelt it wrong make a difference? it was stolen from elsewhere anyway.

We need a better copyright system where you have to list your pieces and then have details up where you can be contacted - not hard!!! I'd be up for listing mine.

TrumpetTom
02.06.2011, 12:14
Thought I was on a win here! But then saw Swiss copyright law. Gets me out of the eneso thing though I think!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/3297/regulation/5/made

MoominDave
02.06.2011, 12:30
But then saw Swiss copyright law. Gets me out of the eneso thing though I think!


:confused: How?

Anglo Music Press
02.06.2011, 13:13
Thought I was on a win here! But then saw Swiss copyright law. Gets me out of the eneso thing though I think!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/3297/regulation/5/made

Indeed, how??

You are subject to UK copyright law (unless there is a Skelmanthorpe in Switzerland that I am not aware of).

Swiss copyright law does not come into it. Even if it did, it is the same as EU copyright law in terms of duration, so...... I'm really puzzled what you mean!

TrumpetTom
02.06.2011, 13:28
Either way it does not make a difference as Swiss copyright law is the same, BUT read point 6. I probably am wrong but this is how I understand it. And turns out enesco was Romanian and no American like I thought.

Anglo Music Press
02.06.2011, 13:34
Either way it does not make a difference as Swiss copyright law is the same, BUT read point 6. I probably am wrong but this is how I understand it. And turns out enesco was Romanian and no American like I thought.

And Romania is in the EU, so....................

brassneck
02.06.2011, 13:35
Either way it does not make a difference as Swiss copyright law is the same, BUT read point 6. I probably am wrong but this is how I understand it. And turns out enesco was Romanian and no American like I thought.

It doesn't matter where the composer was born. What's important is the copyright law of the country you live in.

TrumpetTom
02.06.2011, 13:40
But then why does it say differently there!!! I don't want an argument I want a discussion so can somebody explain point 6 please becuase I don't get it, presuming you are right.

Anglo Music Press
02.06.2011, 13:55
But then why does it say differently there!!! I don't want an argument I want a discussion so can somebody explain point 6 please becuase I don't get it, presuming you are right.

He is right.

In practice, any published work will have a subpublisher in the UK. This makes the country of 'origin' (of the published edition) the UK. So, as far as you're concerned, UK law applies to everything, in practice.

Before UK copyright was extended to 70 years, there was a period when Gershwin was still copyright in the States, but pd here. UK laws superceded those of the 'country of origin'. Ravel is pd here (d. 1937) but still copyright in France - even though we are both in the EU - as the French passed a law to say he's still alive (or something!!). So please don't try Swiss law (why???). Stick to 70 years and you'll be fine.

If you want to find out if a work is pd or not, PRS for Music will help you.

brassneck
02.06.2011, 13:56
But then why does it say differently there!!! I don't want an argument I want a discussion so can somebody explain point 6 please becuase I don't get it, presuming you are right.

When you mention the "Swiss Copyright Law", I assume you meant the Berne Convention? Have a look at the details surrounding it's implementation and membership. It should clarify things a little more ...

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p08_berne_convention

TrumpetTom
02.06.2011, 14:10
Thankyou Philip that explains! And Swiss law is 70 years also anyway so this was more of a for other works kindo thing. So (completely hypothetical) say there was a piece of music not published in this country that's origins were in some country where copyright laws are at the composers death and the composer died last week, would an arranger be able to use it without permission legally?

Anglo Music Press
02.06.2011, 15:05
Thankyou Philip that explains! And Swiss law is 70 years also anyway so this was more of a for other works kindo thing. So (completely hypothetical) say there was a piece of music not published in this country that's origins were in some country where copyright laws are at the composers death and the composer died last week, would an arranger be able to use it without permission legally?

That composer's works would still be protected in this country, so far as I am aware.
But we are now in the realms of fantasy!

TrumpetTom
03.06.2011, 16:21
Right, I've done my research and spoken to people and turns out I'm in the clear, so its alll guuurd :D

MoominDave
03.06.2011, 16:39
In the clear on what? The Birdie Song, or Enescu? I'm inclined to doubt either, I must admit...

Edit: Unless you've spoken to the relevant copyright holder and obtained a specific legal waiver for this usage, of course.

TrumpetTom
03.06.2011, 16:40
Birdie. I'll buy the Enescu.

MoominDave
03.06.2011, 16:44
But how and why? I don't mean to be a persistent irritation, but unless you've got some kind of hotline to the holder of the copyright, there's no way what you've done is legal.

Charming, yes, harmless, yes. But not legal.

MoominDave
03.06.2011, 16:56
Here we are - the tune was written by Werner Thomas (born 1931, still alive - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Thomas and http://www.oldworld.ws/chickenhistory.html)

Unless you have the specific permission of Herr Thomas for this and/or whoever he's licensed it to since, it's not legal. Have you got that permission?

TrumpetTom
03.06.2011, 16:57
It just apparently is! I don't know either mate, but that's what the person who's published birdie song arrangments before said when I asked him "Hi, I was wondering whether you'd be able to tell me where to get copyright permission to do an arrangement of the birdie song?" You do have to apply from publishing rights and recording rights though.

Andrew Norman
03.06.2011, 17:26
You'd be better off asking Valentine Music (http://www.valentinemusic.co.uk/home/music/the-birdie-song)who are the publishers

Thirteen Ball
03.06.2011, 17:29
Tom, I seem to remember having this discussion with you on the band bus back from some contest or other.

I don't know who's told you you're in the clear - but they're wrong I'm afraid. And if they've told you that you're exempt because it was done for educational reasons, that's hogwash too. That applies to the license to copy "A reasonable part" of a work for academic purposes, such as analysis of a score, and photocopying in one or two bars (with proper acknowledgement) if they prove something you're trying to say in your analysis. It does not run to arranging a whole work, by any stretch!

It doesn't matter why you want to do the arrangment. Death+70years is the law over here for anything and everything that hasn't specifically been released by the copyright owner into the public domain. That applies if you're writing for the London Phil, or for the Macclesfield albanian nose-flute choir - and whether it's for making money, or doing your music homework.

The long and the short of it is that unless you have a copyright license from the UK copyright holder then it isn't even legal to have done the arrangement. It really is that simple. Plus the license agreement for the copyright permission is between the copyright holder and the arranger - not any other ensemble/establishment you're doing the arrangement for. That means that if you've been told to arrange somthing that's still on copyright by (for example) a schoolteacher, and you do it, then yes, they'll probably get the book thrown at them for leading you astray, but it doesn't change the fact that it's you that's broken the law.

Everything Brassneck, Moomin and Mr Sparke have said over tha last few pages is spot on. It's really good advice from people who really do know what they're on about.... and you've got it all for free!

I'd take it if I were you..... quickly.....

TrumpetTom
03.06.2011, 17:32
You'd be better off asking Valentine Music (http://www.valentinemusic.co.uk/home/music/the-birdie-song)who are the publishers


Thanks, I have a list of mechanical rights and they are one of 3 publishers. I may drop them an e-mail later, although I do trust the information I already have.

Anglo Music Press
03.06.2011, 17:33
Birdie. I'll buy the Enescu.

All the advice we are giving you is well-meant, honestly!

It's NOT legal for you to do an arrangement of the Birdie Song without paying for a licence from the UK copyright holder - Valentine, it seems.

Similarly with the Enescu. Buying a copy does not mean you can make an arrangement without a licence.

Please listen to those who know, rather than 'a person who's done arrangements of the Birdie Song'.........

Thirteen Ball
03.06.2011, 17:37
Everything Brassneck, Moomin and Mr Sparke have said over the last few pages is spot on. It's really good advice from people who really do know what they're on about.... and you've got it all for free!

Not forgetting Mr Norman too.... (Sorry Andrew....)


Thanks, I have a list of mechanical rights and they are one of 3 publishers. I may drop them an e-mail later, although I do trust the information I already have.

I'm going to go out on a limb here Tom - you know me personally and you also know full well I'll not tell you any nonsense. The information you already have is wrong, and I don't care where it came from. Please don't find out the hard way!!!!

TrumpetTom
03.06.2011, 17:38
Tom, I seem to remember having this discussion with you on the band bus back from some contest or other.

I don't know who's told you you're in the clear - but they're wrong I'm afraid. And if they've told you that you're exempt because it was done for educational reasons, that's hogwash too. That applies to the license to copy "A reasonable part" of a work for academic purposes, such as analysis of a score, and photocopying in one or two bars (with proper acknowledgement) if they prove something you're trying to say in your analysis. It does not run to arranging a whole work, by any stretch!

It doesn't matter why you want to do the arrangment. Death+70years is the law over here for anything and everything that hasn't specifically been released by the copyright owner into the public domain. That applies if you're writing for the London Phil, or for the Macclesfield albanian nose-flute choir - and whether it's for making money, or doing your music homework.

The long and the short of it is that unless you have a copyright license from the UK copyright holder then it isn't even legal to have done the arrangement. It really is that simple. Plus the license agreement for the copyright permission is between the copyright holder and the arranger - not any other ensemble/establishment you;re doing the arrangement for.

So if you've been told to arrange somthing that's still on copyright by (for example) a schoolteacher, and you do it, then yes, they'll probably get the book thrown at them for leading you astray, but it doesn;t change the fact that it's you that's broken the law.

Everything Brassneck, Moomin and Mr Sparke have said over tha last few pages is spot on. It's really good advice from people who really do know what they're on about.... and you've got it all for free!

I'd take it if I were you..... quickly.....



I'll ask valentine music, but other people who know as much are saying opposite. Maybe there are exceptions with this one - they've published it before - I don't know. But either way someones wrong here which means copyright law needs reformation because if it was so straight forward, publishing houses would know the answer to a simple question.

TrumpetTom
03.06.2011, 17:42
All the advice we are giving you is well-meant, honestly!

It's NOT legal for you to do an arrangement of the Birdie Song without paying for a licence from the UK copyright holder - Valentine, it seems.

Similarly with the Enescu. Buying a copy does not mean you can make an arrangement without a licence.

Please listen to those who know, rather than 'a person who's done arrangements of the Birdie Song'.........


I know Philip and thankyou but I've been told very different things off very knowledgeable people so there for I sway each time I read something. And I wasn't planning on doing the Enescu, I focus on composition these days :D much easier. And this blokes from a big company who've published it before.

Thirteen Ball
03.06.2011, 17:50
I know Philip and thankyou but I've been told very different things off very knowledgeable people so there for I sway each time I read something.

General John Sedgwick was a very knowledgeable soldier in the union army, Tom. His last words were "Come on boys! They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...."

Anyone can be wong. What I'm saying is, if your source IS wrong, (and I'm absolutely convinced he is) then you take the fall for it - not him.

TrumpetTom
03.06.2011, 17:59
Okay, I'm assuming nothing, my video has extra protection and I've emailed valentine. If they look at it on my facebook, they'll run the risk of pedofilia.. or something :D lol

Anglo Music Press
03.06.2011, 18:29
Okay, I'm assuming nothing, my video has extra protection and I've emailed valentine. If they look at it on my facebook, they'll run the risk of pedofilia.. or something :D lol

Trust us, Tom, The Birdie Song is in copyright - I'm 99.9999999% sure. (This figure is not 100%, because it is, of course, conceivable that the composer was so ashamed of it that he denied all knowledge of the piece...)

But no-one in his right mind would make an exception of a piece which will probably pay his pension.

Don't believe people just because they give you the answer you want. :)

Maestro
03.06.2011, 19:58
Sorry Tom, but I've got to say this.
You have had many pieces of top advice from people who actually know, and still, it seems that you want to go against their advice.
Well, if you do continue against their advice, then you deserve everything that comes your way if someone shops you.
It will be your own fault.
When people as well respected as those that have tried to advise you (free advice as well) - Andi, Philip, Andrew, Moomin etc - and you ignore that advoce, then I'm sorry, that just smacks of arrogance and you could be heading for a very nasty experience.


Regards

Kev

eflatbass
03.06.2011, 22:43
This particular thread now reports in excess of 1100 views, and that, to me, increases the risk to the op. Had he not announced his intentions on tMP, perhaps none of the audiences listening to his work would have given a second thought to the copyright implications.

I sincerely hope there are no vindictive members on this forum, but for complete peace of mind, I strongly recommend that TrumpetTom abandons the exercise.

And, before anyone should ask, I would never report anyone for copyright infringement, unless of course it involved one of my own original compositions.

JesTperfect!
03.06.2011, 23:27
Little bit off-topic perhaps, but....


And, before anyone should ask, I would never report anyone for copyright infringement, unless of course it involved one of my own original compositions.

One rule for you, another for everyone else, perchance? :confused:

katieeuph
04.06.2011, 00:00
I think Liza Minelli must read tMP- even she (on the Graham Norton Show tonight) was on about making sure that songs she covers are in the public domain !!

TrumpetTom
04.06.2011, 00:41
Yes I am not ignoring the advice and I am seeking extra info to what I have already got as suggested where suggested. If I was that solid on not taking it would I really be writing on here? Seriously? No, becuase as I say when loads of very respectful people say very different things you cant believe anything - for a start you don't know what to believe! But yeah I'll be cautious and take some of barry's advice.

eflatbass
04.06.2011, 14:57
Little bit off-topic perhaps, but....



One rule for you, another for everyone else, perchance? :confused:

No. All I am saying is, that I would do my best to protect my own interests, as would any other composer. I consider that it is the duty of other composers/copyright holders to protect their interests (as I am sure most of them do!).

Thirteen Ball
06.06.2011, 10:37
Yes I am not ignoring the advice and I am seeking extra info to what I have already got as suggested where suggested. If I was that solid on not taking it would I really be writing on here? Seriously? No, becuase as I say when loads of very respectful people say very different things you cant believe anything - for a start you don't know what to believe! But yeah I'll be cautious and take some of barry's advice.

As regards the use of work for educational purposes - you may with to consult the UK copyright service's online factsheets, like this one.

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p27_work_of_others

Particularly this section:


Copying parts of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work or a sound recording, film or broadcast for the purpose of instruction or examination is allowed under the following conditions:

•The copying is done by the student or the person giving instruction.
•The copying is not done via a reprographic process.
•The source of the material is acknowledged.
•The instruction is for a non-commercial purpose.

So under the terms of copyright law it appears you would be covered if (for example) you or your tutor took four bars of a copyrighted work, and from that you expanded your own piece. Or if they gave you the melody line alone and asked you to harmonise it. But in each of these cases only if you also met the other criteria, which does not run to arranging the entire work. Or to putting it onto the internet, even for free.

I was told recently by a chap who's effectively a professional musician that he could quite legally arrange anything by anyone as long as it was only used for performance in a church at which no-one would was charged an entrance fee. (I must confess this was a new one on me, since our local church even got into trouble for photocopying the words from hymn books and putting them up on overhead projectors for the congregation to sing!) I've been checking the UK copyright service website on and off since, and have so far found no justification in law for this assertion. Anyone else know if this one holds any water?