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towse1972
07.12.2010, 20:36
Brighouse are taking women. Its been rumoured for a while but apparently David King has had his way.
I get the imprresion that some members of the band don't feel comfortable with the idea.

What do you think?

themusicalrentboy
07.12.2010, 20:39
I think that not recruiting women is plain stupid, rather than just discriminatory. I mean, Brighouse haven't hardly been through a bad patch recently and I'm not saying they have, but if there was a top woman player available and they had a seat available, it is just stupid to disregard them on the grounds of their sex. Just my opinion, I simply believe it is an archaic way to look at the banding world.

AndyCat
07.12.2010, 20:47
RecruitED? They have one already don't they? According to last week's rumours!

berkshire_baritone
07.12.2010, 20:52
at last. and those that don't like it - where can they go. oops no top bands left with no women. guess they'll have to lump it.

only took several decades but the debate has now finished.

at flippin last.

Aidan
07.12.2010, 21:16
don't see many women at grimey on a regular basis though :)

edit: beurgh

Rambo Chick
07.12.2010, 22:16
Normally I would be 'yeah, let the women in, great idea'. But in this case I find myself having an abnormal stance on the subject.

It is the last band to let women in. If it was the ONLY top section band in the country and no women were allowed, I would think it unfair. But it's not like there aren't a fair few other top bands. So if they wish to remain all male, it's not such a bad thing.

And tis a brave woman who ventures into the all-male banding territory!

Addarb
07.12.2010, 23:36
I think the subject of women in brass bands would make an excellent article for 4barsrest, if they can manage to take it seriously.

My first Championship Contest, as a spectator was in the mid 1970s and I don't think there were more than half a dozen girls in the whole contest. Our village band took their first girl on board in the early 1970s (and she went on to marry within the band and their children and I think grandchildren are now involved). I realise it is a bit off topic from the top bands taking on women, but it is an indication of the changing times.

When/who was Dykes first female player?

Zappa
07.12.2010, 23:39
Bands not taking women is just the most ridiculous thing ever!!

I think i'm correct in saying that with Grimey at the Whit Friday marches a number of years ago, if a wife or partner wanted to attend, they had to follow the band coach in their car!!

First and foremost it's playing ability, then 'are you able to give required commitment', then does your personality 'fit' with the band? I.e. You wont rock the boat/egos left at the door etc.

Are you male or female shouldn't come into it!

I could be reaching too far here, but are some of our 'top' bands now more or less a business? With equal rights etc shouldn't they be careful with this issue?

DMBabe
08.12.2010, 00:01
It would be a very brave women to join B+R, if the disgusting alpha male behaviour I witnessed a couple of years ago at Whit Friday is anything to go by. Unless things have greatly changed it would not be a pleasant environment for any woman (or indeed most men) to be in.

Zappa
08.12.2010, 00:09
It would be a very brave women to join B+R, if the disgusting alpha male behaviour I witnessed a couple of years ago at Whit Friday is anything to go by.

Now will you elaborate on this???? :eek:

towse1972
08.12.2010, 00:17
Normally I would be 'yeah, let the women in, great idea'. But in this case I find myself having an abnormal stance on the subject.

It is the last band to let women in. If it was the ONLY top section band in the country and no women were allowed, I would think it unfair. But it's not like there aren't a fair few other top bands. So if they wish to remain all male, it's not such a bad thing.

And tis a brave woman who ventures into the all-male banding territory!
Nothing brave about it at all. Dont be such a girl!

towse1972
08.12.2010, 00:19
It would be a very brave women to join B+R, if the disgusting alpha male behaviour I witnessed a couple of years ago at Whit Friday is anything to go by. Unless things have greatly changed it would not be a pleasant environment for any woman (or indeed most men) to be in.
I repeat...Not brave. They are just people the same as everyone else.

brassneck
08.12.2010, 00:39
I repeat...Not brave. They are just people the same as everyone else.

... and here's me thinking that Dave King has got in touch with you! :rolleyes:

DMBabe
08.12.2010, 03:41
Now will you elaborate on this???? :eek:

Have sent you a pm.


I repeat...Not brave. They are just people the same as everyone else.

What? The women are people like everyone else or B+R are people like everyone else? And we all know there are varying types of "people"......

berkshire_baritone
08.12.2010, 07:21
as far as i'm concerned saying it's okay to have all male bands simply because they're are other bands who let in women makes about as much sense as if dyke had a 'whites only' policy which they justified by saying that grimethorpe were prepared to let in a few black people.

utterly daft argument.

in the next few years this debate will finally die. our future is in more women. it'll improve banding for all.

euphoria
08.12.2010, 07:29
I think we should leave it up to the individual bands to decide their policies. Do you also want Boobs and Brass to include male players?

What about male choirs? - are they chauvinistic (sp?)

I don't have to agree with the no-girls policy - I simply accept that it is not my decision to make and that tradition can cary a lot of weight in such matters.

Erik

subtlevib
08.12.2010, 07:44
I can't believe that in 2010 this discussion even has to take place. It's like suggesting that you can't be a member of a band because you have brown eyes. They would have to change the name of the band to justify their all-male stance, like a male voice choir, where it does what it says on the tin.
Tradition is fine, and has it's place, but it doesn't make it right. Bullfighting's traditional....

euphoria
08.12.2010, 08:29
I can't believe that in 2010 this discussion even has to take place. It's like suggesting that you can't be a member of a band because you have brown eyes. They would have to change the name of the band to justify their all-male stance, like a male voice choir, where it does what it says on the tin.
Tradition is fine, and has it's place, but it doesn't make it right. Bullfighting's traditional....

This discussion will go on for as long as we keep telling other people how we want them to organize themselves in their own spare time. As someone mentioned earlier, banding is not a business so I don't think that affirmative action comes into play here.
No ones livelyhood is under threat by B&R having an all male policy (or Boobs and Brass having an al female policy).

Why should B&R change their name to reflect this policy???

If the name Boobs and Brass reflects their entire recruitment policy I know a lot of guys that are eligible ;)

Erik

P_S_Price
08.12.2010, 08:41
Can somebody explain to me why Women are pre-occupied with gaining entry to Male Clubs etc, when Men dont feel the same way about Womens clubs?

Its like they cant stand the thought of men getting together and enjoying themselves without some woman putting the moccas on it?

I mean which young man in his right mind wanted to be in the Guides, yet Girls couldnt wait to Squeeze into the Scouts. Same with many other male clubs.

Which man in his right mind would want to Join the WI?

Cmon Ladies Give men somewhere (other than the Gents) where they can go without being nagged at for 24 x 7.

bassmittens
08.12.2010, 08:46
If the name Boobs and Brass reflects their entire recruitment policy I know a lot of guys that are eligible ;) Erik

PMSL...........



.....then i looked in the mirror :eek::eek::eek:

fatcontroler
08.12.2010, 09:00
Can somebody explain to me why Women are pre-occupied with gaining entry to Male Clubs etc, when Men dont feel the same way about Womens clubs?

the brass banding 'club' isnt a male only past time anymore though is it? So im not sure that your point stands there.
But i understand what you mean - double standards and all. Like when i didnt get an interview for the bra fitters job in La Senza:wink:

there may have been some 'vile' behaviour at Whit Friday, but i do know plenty of women banders who would fit in very well if that is what they are looking for!

P_S_Price
08.12.2010, 09:18
...the brass banding 'club' isnt a male only past time anymore though is it? So im not sure that your point stands there....


More of a General point really, I see no reason as to why Women are excluded from Bands (unless its explicitly a Male band for social purposes). My own band could nt function without its very talented women players.

BUT there are times when Guys just want to be Guys on their own; and this just seems to get right up the nose of the female of the species ;)!

Cant understand it. More than happy for my wife to clear off shopping without me, with her mates, or even to bog off down to the local restaurant for a GIrlie chat and general men slagging off session!

But if I wanna go to the footy? its ' ..what do you want to go there for ?...'

P_S_Price
08.12.2010, 09:22
... - double standards and all...

Also you will notice that no woman has come on here trying to justify there musclelling in to mens clubs - Maybe they feel Guilty :oops: about their double standards?

;)

Accidental
08.12.2010, 09:33
Also you will notice that no woman has come on here trying to justify there musclelling in to mens clubs - Maybe they feel Guilty :oops: about their double standards?

;)
Or maybe they're just resisting the temptation to wander off topic...... ;)

So, back to B&R - 20 years ago the number of all-male bands really did bother me because it represented a major lack of opportunities for women to get into the elite bands. But since Grimethorpe and B&R have been the only ones left holding out its been a non-issue for me really. Totally unsurprised that David King was the MD to see it happen at B&R though, and it will be interesting to see what happens next.

And I don't think the Boobs & Brass argument really holds water, because they're not a 'normal' (registered, contesting) band. They're effectively a 'scratch' band made up of women from other bands, specifically to raise money and awareness for charity. Not the same thing at all.

G D Bush
08.12.2010, 09:53
So, can we have names?? Women going into B&R..... vacancy on the horn section..... ex-YBS conductor.....ex-YBS players...... Mr Lingard already signed up..... is Mrs Lingard joining???? ;)

They wouldnt be the last all male band. Grimey still dont have any ladies.

And interestingly, there are still a small number of self-proclaimed 'prestigious' Salvation Army (ie Church!!) bands that vehemently "make it difficult" for ladies to be amongst their ranks..... :oops:

euphoria
08.12.2010, 09:53
And I don't think the Boobs & Brass argument really holds water, because they're not a 'normal' (registered, contesting) band. They're effectively a 'scratch' band made up of women from other bands, specifically to raise money and awareness for charity. Not the same thing at all.

I can't see what contesting has to do with it???
But again - I am all in favour of their right to decide who they want to play with - it is none of my business.

It has nothing to do with sexism.
If I want to make a club of slightly overweight (but still adorable) euph players, I reserve the right to deny access to any skinny cornet player that may want to join my club.

Bones
08.12.2010, 10:07
Or maybe they're just resisting the temptation to wander off topic...... ;)

So, back to B&R - 20 years ago the number of all-male bands really did bother me because it represented a major lack of opportunities for women to get into the elite bands. But since Grimethorpe and B&R have been the only ones left holding out its been a non-issue for me really. Totally unsurprised that David King was the MD to see it happen at B&R though, and it will be interesting to see what happens next.

And I don't think the Boobs & Brass argument really holds water, because they're not a 'normal' (registered, contesting) band. They're effectively a 'scratch' band made up of women from other bands, specifically to raise money and awareness for charity. Not the same thing at all.


But the fact remains, ttheir membership was and is limited (unless exceptional circumstances allow Mr March hold your tongue) to women, and i know of no man in the movement who 1. reveres a place in the hallowed portabls of B&B such that they will lobby for it on an open forum. or 2. underestimates the fabulous work that they do.

As for contesting bands

Trinity Girls

At the end of the day who cares. I've played with the so called all male bands, and I have played for the "free thinking co-ed mobs" as well. At the end of the day you join what makes you happy. There are plenty of cracking female players, so they join mixed sex bands and prove that all male bands arent as superior. Being an "enemy in the camp" puts a lot of stress on the individual to perform socially as well as musically.

This is a nothing argument. bringing racism into it by comparing it to a "whites" only argument, is really off the wall. One only has to look at B&R current line up to see that is definitely not the case.

Remember a lot of bands were work orientated bands. Their constitutions were set up in support of then the working man. I dont make the social divides, they were done historically. Pits had men working in them. and Recreationally they went to the working men's club and paid into a working mans social subscription which supported bands

Changing those constitutions in some cases is like rewriting the magna carta. Society changes at a slow pace and banding follows about 10 years later.

Lets face it, we can hardly call it a movement. It hasnt changed for years :-) When it moves, give me a shout.

Accidental
08.12.2010, 10:11
I can't see what contesting has to do with it???
just trying to make the point that to compare a band like B&R with Boobs & Brass is meaningless (or at best a red herring!) because one is in the same contesting/ranking system (with registered players that by definition can't also be members of another contesting band) as hundreds of other brass bands in this country, and the other is not.

doctor thick
08.12.2010, 10:13
So, can we have names?? Women going into B&R..... vacancy on the horn section..... ex-YBS conductor.....ex-YBS players...... Mr Lingard already signed up..... is Mrs Lingard joining???? ;)

They wouldnt be the last all male band. Grimey still dont have any ladies.

And interestingly, there are still a small number of self-proclaimed 'prestigious' Salvation Army (ie Church!!) bands that vehemently "make it difficult" for ladies to be amongst their ranks..... :oops:
I think I would be correct in saying the lady who you are implying in your post isn't the present Mrs Lingard. However if the stupid rule has been relaxed and chairs are at long last becoming available at B&R for the fairer sex, I would expect the M.D to try and offer her a place as soon as is possible.

Anno Draconis
08.12.2010, 10:50
If the name Boobs and Brass reflects their entire recruitment policy I know a lot of guys that are eligible ;)

Moobs and Brass? :biggrin:

Simon Preshom
08.12.2010, 11:28
So, can we have names?? Women going into B&R..... vacancy on the horn section..... ex-YBS conductor.....ex-YBS players...... Mr Lingard already signed up..... is Mrs Lingard joining???? ;)



The horn player you are referring to is no longer married to Mr Lingard.

P_S_Price
08.12.2010, 11:47
...
And interestingly, there are still a small number of self-proclaimed 'prestigious' Salvation Army (ie Church!!) bands that vehemently "make it difficult" for ladies to be amongst their ranks.....

I know - Shameful aint it :oops:?

I can honestly say that we dont though.

We have 12 Male and 8 Female (Just lost 1 female too so it was until recently 12/9)

Mattytheshark
08.12.2010, 11:50
It's all about tradition. Outside of the banding world there are hundreds of clubs and societies which only have either men or women in. This isn't discriminatory, it's just the way things are in some organisations.

Simon Preshom
08.12.2010, 12:09
Can somebody explain to me why Women are pre-occupied with gaining entry to Male Clubs etc, when Men dont feel the same way about Womens clubs?

Nothing like a good bit of generalising eh.

This is a non-story - B&R can appoint who they want to appoint. If they have the chance to appoint someone who is the best player/person for the chair (man or woman) but don't...their loss.

P_S_Price
08.12.2010, 12:13
Nothing like a good bit of generalising eh.

This is a non-story - B&R can appoint who they want to appoint. If they have the chance to appoint someone who is the best player/person for the chair (man or woman) but don't...their loss.


Generally SPeaking, All generalisations are inaccurate (including this one?)

:confused: :eek: :clap:

Accidental
08.12.2010, 12:19
It's all about tradition. Outside of the banding world there are hundreds of clubs and societies which only have either men or women in. This isn't discriminatory
Of course it is! To restrict membership in any way, for any reason, is by definition discrimination.
Whether its a good thing, a bad thing or a non-issue is an entirely different matter though, and the answer will be different for different groups.

2nd trom virtuoso
08.12.2010, 13:23
It's all about tradition. Outside of the banding world there are hundreds of clubs and societies which only have either men or women in. This isn't discriminatory, it's just the way things are in some organisations.

Spot on. it is not discriminatory. Good on Grimey or Brighouse if they wish to remain an all male organisation

Mattytheshark
08.12.2010, 13:46
Of course it is! To restrict membership in any way, for any reason, is by definition discrimination.


If we are talking dictionary definition then you are correct. But dictionary definition/black and white thinking is what the politically correct brigade always default to and they are wrong to think like that as they discriminate against the way people chose for their organisations to be run.

Many traditions in this country are spoilt by this politically correct rubbish.

Accidental
08.12.2010, 14:04
If we are talking dictionary definition then you are correct. But dictionary definition/black and white thinking is what the politically correct brigade always default to and they are wrong to think like that as they discriminate against the way people chose for their organisations to be run.

Many traditions in this country are spoilt by this politically correct rubbish.
Indeed, but with respect I think you missed my point - I certainly wasn't arguing against tradition or trying to be PC, and I was talking grey areas not black & white - at times I think some people forget that tradition doesn't automatically make something right, and discrimination doesn't automatically make something wrong.

I will freely admit to being pedantic about the use of the English language though ;)

STUART HAIGH
08.12.2010, 14:47
Don t know what all the fuss is about ! Brass Bands have always been more fun with woman in them....sometimes it s the only way to get players to a practice by setting on some nice looking ones.

MoominDave
08.12.2010, 15:07
Indeed, but with respect I think you missed my point - I certainly wasn't arguing against tradition or trying to be PC, and I was talking grey areas not black & white - at times I think some people forget that tradition doesn't automatically make something right, and discrimination doesn't automatically make something wrong.

I will freely admit to being pedantic about the use of the English language though ;)

I think Matty ironically went a bit B&W on interpreting your point...

Or perhaps I'm going a bit B&W on him for using that dreadful meaningless polarising term "PC brigade"!

Anyway... My take is that maintaining tradition is all well and good, when it makes sense to do so. Does it make sense here? Not really; as far as I can see, it was all about maintaining a rugby-club style brand of masculine bonding - powerful and full-on - but also easily capable of spilling over into a nasty type of lewdness. Is that worth getting all noble about protecting? Seems unlikely to me.

B&R will continue to do well, and will continue to work with the players that suit them. It's not the end of the world (contrary to what I saw proclaimed on Facebook this morning!).

Rapier
08.12.2010, 16:34
as far as I can see, it was all about maintaining a rugby-club style brand of masculine bonding - powerful and full-on - but also easily capable of spilling over into a nasty type of lewdness.


I never knew you were a member of my rugby club. :cool:

DMBabe
08.12.2010, 16:47
I think we should leave it up to the individual bands to decide their policies. Do you also want Boobs and Brass to include male players?

What about male choirs? - are they chauvinistic (sp?)


Am pretty sure on occasion Boobs and Brass have included male players.... after all breast cancer isn't just a female disease....

And the choir argument doesn't wash and is a pretty poor comparison because male voice choirs and female choirs produce completely different sounds. Can't say the same for brass bands. It'd be like trying to compete with a brass band with only Baritones up or Euphs down. Not gonna sound the same is it? :roll:

eflatbass
08.12.2010, 17:08
For anyone who has never seen it, please watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIbM6c7DW_U

Comments?

Bass Trumpet
08.12.2010, 17:13
I never knew you were a member of my rugby club. :cool:

'Crusher' Taylor, top try scorer. His motto; 'retaliate first'

Sorry, semi-serious cap on....

Having occasionally depped with one of the last all-male bands, my only reservation would be the dressing arrangements. I have recurring flashbacks of seeing a larger-than-life bass player (who will remain nameless) wandering around the dressing room clad only in Y-fronts. I wouldn't want to subject any ladies to that sight!

MoominDave
08.12.2010, 18:04
His motto; 'retaliate first'


As on bass trombone, so in life...

critic
08.12.2010, 18:57
Brighouse are taking women. Its been rumoured for a while but apparently David King has had his way.
I get the imprresion that some members of the band don't feel comfortable with the idea.

What do you think?

flippin eck! nuns will be sleeping wth monks next!

BlowRob
08.12.2010, 22:09
So, can we have names?? Women going into B&R..... vacancy on the horn section..... ex-YBS conductor.....ex-YBS players...... Mr Lingard already signed up..... is Mrs Lingard joining???? ;)

Yes, there is a vacancy on the horn section. And i think Sheona White will be as likely to go to B&R and sit 1st horn as Plymouth Argyle are to win the Champions League next season.

subtlevib
08.12.2010, 22:27
Anyway... My take is that maintaining tradition is all well and good, when it makes sense to do so. Does it make sense here? Not really; as far as I can see, it was all about maintaining a rugby-club style brand of masculine bonding - powerful and full-on - but also easily capable of spilling over into a nasty type of lewdness. Is that worth getting all noble about protecting? Seems unlikely to me.



Well put. My thoughts entirely.

subtlevib
08.12.2010, 22:36
And the choir argument doesn't wash and is a pretty poor comparison because male voice choirs and female choirs produce completely different sounds. Can't say the same for brass bands. It'd be like trying to compete with a brass band with only Baritones up or Euphs down. Not gonna sound the same is it? :roll:


You are absolutely right, but it would appear that they are cutting off their noses to spite their faces , when it doesn't actually make a difference to the music? The 'tradition' is there simply for social purposes, surely?

PAB
09.12.2010, 09:02
So, can we have names?? Women going into B&R..... vacancy on the horn section..... ex-YBS conductor.....ex-YBS players...... Mr Lingard already signed up..... is Mrs Lingard joining???? ;)

They wouldnt be the last all male band. Grimey still dont have any ladies.

And interestingly, there are still a small number of self-proclaimed 'prestigious' Salvation Army (ie Church!!) bands that vehemently "make it difficult" for ladies to be amongst their ranks..... :oops:


B&R, as Champions of both Yorkshire and Great Britain have a a need to recruit the best possible player when a vacancy occurs. We are somewhat flattered by all the "noise" that this change in the make-up of our ranks has created. Dave King has been a contributor to our decision but B&R is a democratic and well run organisation (institution?) and together the MD (Sandy Smith) and Professional (Dave King), players and management committee made the decision to relax our "boys club" attitude and recruit the best person to fill the vacancy. Yes, you will see further female additions to the ranks at B&R but they will audition alongside male candidates and the best player / cultural fit will be offered the position.

Thanks again for everyone's interest in B&R.

The Band is playing two concerts in Brighouse on Saturday (evening is sold out) and then one at Huddersfield Town Hall (with Colne Valley Malke Voice Choir; again sold out I believe) on Sunday followed by two concerts in the Royal Hall, Harrogate on the following Saturday (18th) and Buxton Opera House on Sunday (19th); the boys and presently our one young lady would be pleased to see you there.

Merry Christmas to everyone from B&R!

Regards,
Paul Beaumont - President, The World Famous Brighouse & Rastrick Band.

Bass Trumpet
09.12.2010, 09:12
B&R, as Champions of both Yorkshire and Great Britain have a a need to recruit the best possible player when a vacancy occurs.

Agreed, Paul. Thanks for contributing to this. As in any appointment in any job, the best candidate should be offered it, irrespective of gender, race, religion etc. Brass bands have a wonderful history and tradition, but bigotry has it's place in the 19th and 20th centuries and not now.

JR
09.12.2010, 09:42
Agreed, Paul. Thanks for contributing to this. As in any appointment in any job, the best candidate should be offered it, irrespective of gender, race, religion etc. Brass bands have a wonderful history and tradition, but bigotry has it's place in the 19th and 20th centuries and not now.

Thanks Duncan for a serious contribution - well said!

P.S well done at Leicester!

John R

agentorange
09.12.2010, 09:51
If I want to make a club of slightly overweight (but still adorable) euph players.......

I think i qualify! Where do i sign? ;)

Bass Trumpet
09.12.2010, 09:52
Thanks Duncan for a serious contribution - well said!

P.S well done at Leicester!

John R

Thankyou John

agentorange
09.12.2010, 09:57
..... the name Boobs and Brass reflects their entire recruitment policy I know a lot of guys that are eligible ;)

Erik

I think I qualify, where do I sign......:rolleyes:

tkhbss
09.12.2010, 10:51
the boys and presently our one young lady would be pleased to see you there.

Who is the young lady? Heard it might be Laura Hurst who had been playing principal with Fairey then flugel with Dyke before Zoe Hancock arrived?

Someone asked who first female at Dyke was - that was surely Leslie Howie on solo horn.

doctor thick
09.12.2010, 11:56
EDIT: Insulting and unnecessary. Removed. Take this as a final warning.

PAB
09.12.2010, 12:09
What a negative and personally insulting reply. If this is the level of behaviour and intelligence that this post has reduced itself to I'm afraid that there will be no more input from myself.

To put the record straight; yes, Laura has joined B&R and an official release will be going out shortly.

PABeaumont
President, B&R

Rapier
09.12.2010, 12:24
PAB, please ignore any post by dr thick. He/she is just a forum troll that endeavours to wind everyone up and is not worthy of note.

MoominDave
09.12.2010, 12:31
^ What he said.

WoodenFlugel
09.12.2010, 12:56
Quite. Post now edited. Can we move on?

Thirteen Ball
09.12.2010, 14:23
Am pretty sure on occasion Boobs and Brass have included male players.... after all breast cancer isn't just a female disease....

Yes they have.

I believe they're tactfully referred to as 'Implants.'

And no, I'm not joking!!

tromwinst
09.12.2010, 14:33
I don't really care if the bands are mixed or not. I had great time at B&R when I was there and it was all male then. I didn't join because it was an all male, however I did like having a great time with the lads. Even though the band was all male B&R have a great spirit that involved all the families within the band.

What is concerning me is the grief that people/bands are getting for wanting or having all male bands!

Is it such a big problem?
Is it harming anyone?
Is it against the law?

People have tried to make lots of comparisons on here to try and justify it, but I just don't think they need to be made.

What is wrong with a band wanting it to be just male or just female?

Having said all that, I have played in bands and orchestra that are mixed and either way doesn't really bother me.

The grief that players and bands get for wanting it is a little harsh.

MoominDave
09.12.2010, 14:54
Times have changed. 100 years ago people in the main simply accepted acting out traditional gender roles. Now, it is socially acceptable for any part of either role as people used to understand them to be performed by a person of either gender - indeed, further, it is socially unacceptable to seek to restrict other people to traditional gender roles.

That's just where we are as a society at the moment. An institution that has held a single-sex membership policy static since the earlier time for no clearer purpose than "tradition", as B&R have, is inevitably going to feel tensions on that policy from the outside world, as serious questions are asked about the sense of maintaining a hangover from a long-gone time. Looking in from outside, I find it hard to see exactly what that is worthwhile will be lost by inviting female players in. Perhaps someone more familiar with the band could lay out what they think will be lost?

eflatbass
09.12.2010, 15:06
What is wrong with a band wanting it to be just male or just female?



A serious question. How long do you think it will be before we have an all-female championship section band? Presumably, there are sufficient numbers of extremely talented female players for this to be a consideration?

Then I suppose a new debate would follow: should all-female bands allow males into their domain?

tromwinst
09.12.2010, 15:16
Times have changed. 100 years ago people in the main simply accepted acting out traditional gender roles. Now, it is socially acceptable for any part of either role as people used to understand them to be performed by a person of either gender - indeed, further, it is socially unacceptable to seek to restrict other people to traditional gender roles.

That's just where we are as a society at the moment. An institution that has held a single-sex membership policy static since the earlier time for no clearer purpose than "tradition", as B&R have, is inevitably going to feel tensions on that policy from the outside world, as serious questions are asked about the sense of maintaining a hangover from a long-gone time. Looking in from outside, I find it hard to see exactly what that is worthwhile will be lost by inviting female players in. Perhaps someone more familiar with the band could lay out what they think will be lost?

I really don't see it as a hangover from the past.

Please can someone tell me what is wrong with wanting to play in a group that is all male, and what is wrong with having such groups??

People jump on a this type of thing and make a big deal about it. In the end people have to bow down to these stupid pc gripes that people go out of their way to create because of an uneeded push.

MoominDave
09.12.2010, 15:36
I think you've misinterpreted my use of the word 'hangover'. It wasn't meant to convey anything negative - simply that a stance adopted in one time has been carried through to another time - another time in which that stance wouldn't have been adopted. It's a... What's a word that won't get people's back's up?... Relic? Anachronism? No, those sound as if they are making a judgement too. You know what I meant now, anyway.

For me, the primary problem with a group such as B&R being all male by policy is that it is a) a group many people aspire to join, and b) features a skill that is not gender-specific (although it may have once seemed that it was). It represents a sizeable fraction of the opportunities to play in a world-class band that are available, and so denying people access on the basis of something they were born with is quite simply unkind and harsh. You could argue that B&R are victims of their own success - Finius P. Cockwinkle's Chutney Works band wouldn't cause such a stir.
A second problem is that, as has been alluded to, the laddishness that people value sometimes gets out of control. A third problem is that it propagates the perception that other people have of brass bands as being stuck in a timewarp.

Would you care to give an answer to the question that finished my last post? You seem ideally situated to do so.

StellaJohnson
09.12.2010, 15:43
Please can someone tell me what is wrong with wanting to play in a group that is all male, and what is wrong with having such groups??

Nothing at all in my view, single sex organisations, reglion, whatever do serve a purpose in society example. I go to a female only gym and I wouldn't personally want to an mixed gym, because I'm a bit chubby and feel uncomfortable being in that environment. What I fail to see is you pupose of staying all male? I personally haven't got a problem if you want to be all male. There are plenty of mixed top section bands for women to join.

tromwinst
09.12.2010, 15:51
I am not in the band and wouldn't like to comment on the thoughts and feelings of the band.

Would there be such a big fuss about an all female band that were very successful. There are thousands of fantastic female players out there that could if put together rival any top band. Why do they not form?

I must repeat that I don't care if women join any band, but still gets me that the male/female don't seem to have a choice anymore or the right to play or run an all male/female groups??:confused:

PC gone mad if you asked me. Its a matter of choice, surely?

In regards to there been few bands of B&R quality, why don't women form one? Surely they can travel just like other playing members of said bands?

Just seems a great shame and a telling sign of our society that people can't accept that people would like to play in a same sex group.

StellaJohnson
09.12.2010, 15:55
Do people join B&R or even faireys, black dyke a few years ago simply because they were all male?

GJG
09.12.2010, 16:01
Do people join B&R or even faireys, black dyke a few years ago simply because they were all male?

Not sure about that, however there were rumours at the time that certain players were "compelled" by their better halves to leave certain top bands once they began appointing female players ...

MoominDave
09.12.2010, 16:06
James,

Okay, fair enough. It would help me to understand why people are against it if somebody could supply reasons why allowing females would harm the band. "Tradition" on it's own doesn't seem a good enough answer to me. I could imagine that internal sulking at the decision could harm the team ethos - which is also a bad reason, but a potentially compelling one. In the absence of any information (and all I'm asking for is personal takes from supporters of the case to keep females out, not definitive statements of band policy), I truly am floundering to understand the attitude, which doesn't seem to intersect mine anywhere.

It seems from the rest of your post that you are talking more generally, while I am talking more specifically, which is maybe why we seem to have so quickly moved to talking past each other. To talk more generally, I appreciate the spirit in which you say 'Why shouldn't we be allowed to do what we want?' - but the problem is one of exclusion. You could found a single-sex little village band, but would you turn away the little girl who showed up wanting to join? You're having fun, but she's not. We're all people underneath - what's the big deal?

Thirteen Ball
09.12.2010, 16:10
So is anyone going to start "Balls and Brass" to raise money for Testicular cancer then?

eflatbass
09.12.2010, 16:22
Okay; so let's reverse the situation. We have, hypothetically, an all-female band. After a few years of preserving their one sex membership, they invite a male to join them. If you were that particular male, how would you feel? Would you accept the invitation, or would you be too embarrassed to join the ladies?

I believe that many men would reject the offer, thereby proving that ladies are more resilient than men, and that they have a stronger ability to hold their own within the male dominated world of brass bands.

Simon Preshom
09.12.2010, 16:22
So is anyone going to start "Balls and Brass" to raise money for Testicular cancer then?

There is one. Its called NOBBS - National Old Boys Band of Scotland.

Phillip McCann conducts.

brassneck
09.12.2010, 16:47
There is one. Its called NOBBS - National Old Boys Band of Scotland.

Phillip McCann conducts.

:clap: ... beat me to it!

http://www.sbba.org.uk/index.php?section=2&id=408

towse1972
09.12.2010, 17:23
.......best player / cultural fit will be offered the position.

.
Could you expand on this part of your statement please?

towse1972
09.12.2010, 17:29
A serious question. How long do you think it will be before we have an all-female championship section band? Presumably, there are sufficient numbers of extremely talented female players for this to be a consideration?
Never, because two wrongs don't make a right (if you get my drift!).There are many, many females that have the talent to make up the best band in the world....actually, I'm warming to the idea! ;)

tromwinst
09.12.2010, 18:14
James,

Okay, fair enough. It would help me to understand why people are against it if somebody could supply reasons why allowing females would harm the band. "Tradition" on it's own doesn't seem a good enough answer to me. I could imagine that internal sulking at the decision could harm the team ethos - which is also a bad reason, but a potentially compelling one. In the absence of any information (and all I'm asking for is personal takes from supporters of the case to keep females out, not definitive statements of band policy), I truly am floundering to understand the attitude, which doesn't seem to intersect mine anywhere.

It seems from the rest of your post that you are talking more generally, while I am talking more specifically, which is maybe why we seem to have so quickly moved to talking past each other. To talk more generally, I appreciate the spirit in which you say 'Why shouldn't we be allowed to do what we want?' - but the problem is one of exclusion. You could found a single-sex little village band, but would you turn away the little girl who showed up wanting to join? You're having fun, but she's not. We're all people underneath - what's the big deal?


If there were no other bands for anybody to join I would agree with your post, but, there are hundreds of bands if not thousands of top quality bands around for people to join?

berkshire_baritone
09.12.2010, 18:17
it amazes me that we all surely want things to improve in banding in one way or another, yet i get the impression some people want improvement whilst not changing anything.

imagine what it would feel like to be playing at a contest up against a band which you are barred from joining simply because of your gender, race, sexuality, or some other measure that only belongs in predudice. how would you feel?

it's things like this that mean we loose players. few quit because they can't play the top c in tune. people leave because they fall out of love with banding. it's the c**p politics that makes people loose the love for it, and sexism annoys.

also any argument about boobs and brass is just daft. they are what they are for a good cause. plus as it's women who have been historically discriminated against then a small amount of women only-ness in our movement seems fair.

live with change. no change = no hope of improvement.

thanks.

MoominDave
09.12.2010, 18:40
If there were no other bands for anybody to join I would agree with your post, but, there are hundreds of bands if not thousands of top quality bands around for people to join?

According to the 4BR rankings, B&R are currently the 5th most successful contesting band in the world. Some way from hundreds, let alone thousands. Seats at top bands don't tend to become available very often, so far as I can see; I'd be raging if I was a female player with the aptitude and desire to play for a top band who couldn't get a seat because the other big boys were full up and I was barred from an available seat at B&R by my gender.

tromwinst
09.12.2010, 18:54
Ok, going to leave it at that I think. I still struggle to believe that people have no longer got the choice to play in or run an all male or all female band, without coming under fire from pc crazyness.

Al
09.12.2010, 18:56
imagine what it would feel like to be playing at a contest up against a band which you are barred from joining simply because of your gender, race, sexuality, or some other measure that only belongs in predudice. how would you feel?


I don't get all this stuff.

Surely if there is a band that has a bar because of "gender, race, sexuality, or some other measure" surely a person wouldn't want to play with them in the first place if they felt that strongly about it..

MoominDave
09.12.2010, 19:29
Ok, going to leave it at that I think. I still struggle to believe that people have no longer got the choice to play in or run an all male or all female band, without coming under fire from pc crazyness.

It seems slightly bad manners to respond to someone who's declared that he's not going to post again, but an interesting angle on it pops into my head in response to your phrasing...

Which is that bands are products of their constituencies (and I don't mean in the political sense). A single-sex band came into existence because it served a single-sex environment (e.g. working men's club, colliery, etc.). However, that single-sex environment no longer exists. Does it make sense to maintain the band as single-sex? I don't see how it ever really could...

Still waiting for anyone out there to explain what it is that a female presence would make poorer about a single-sex band...?

MoominDave
09.12.2010, 19:30
I don't get all this stuff.

Surely if there is a band that has a bar because of "gender, race, sexuality, or some other measure" surely a person wouldn't want to play with them in the first place if they felt that strongly about it..

Unless they were so good that playing with them was a rare prize... As here...

Al
09.12.2010, 20:04
...or that rare prize is actually being the first woman to play in that band.

PeterBale
09.12.2010, 22:17
Still waiting for anyone out there to explain what it is that a female presence would make poorer about a single-sex band...?

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, many of the more prominent Salvation Army bands were for a long time male-only preserves. Amongst the arguments brought forward for this in the past have been:

Would women be able to give the same commitment?

Would it spoil the "male-only" spirit ? (odd maybe, but relevant when one considers that it was at least in part the bands that gave the Salvation Army a higher proportion of male members than other churches)

What would be the effect on the deportment, both indoors and on the march?

I was privileged to be in a meeting in the Manchester Division when Stockport Citadel band appeared for the first time in public with female members: I'm happy to say that the new arrivals were a credit to the band in all respects, and I think all the arguments listed above have been countered by now, even if it has meant some inevitable compromises regarding attendance, particularly where both husband and wife are involved with the band and there are child-care duties to be considered.

eflatbass
09.12.2010, 22:36
As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, many of the more prominent Salvation Army bands were for a long time male-only preserves. Amongst the arguments brought forward for this in the past have been:

Would women be able to give the same commitment?



I grew up in a SA corps where the band numbered around 40, all of whom were men. The songster brigade (choir to those of you not familiar with SA jargon), however,consisted of about 20 ladies, plus 8 men from the band.

The level of commitment shown by the ladies of the songster brigade was no less than that shown by the band members, except that the male singers had two practices per week to attend, one with the band and the other with the songster brigade. I admit that the band also conducted most of the open air meetings without their female counterparts, but of course the ladies also had the important household duties to perform in between attending three meetings on a Sunday.

Bayerd
09.12.2010, 23:33
Still waiting for anyone out there to explain what it is that a female presence would make poorer about a single-sex band...?


Porn on the band bus.

I wouldn't necessarily say that an all male band is better or worse than a mixed sex band, just different. This has nothing to do with playing or music, it's about the social aspect and how men behave differently when not in the company of women.

DMBabe
10.12.2010, 02:09
Porn on the band bus.

I wouldn't necessarily say that an all male band is better or worse than a mixed sex band, just different. This has nothing to do with playing or music, it's about the social aspect and how men behave differently when not in the company of women.

Some men....... :roll:

GM3
10.12.2010, 06:44
Porn on the band bus.


So these "men" all get together in a confined space and participate in an activity (watching porn)that is solely designed to induce sexual arousal - and they don't want women around ...that sounds a bit gay (not that there is anything wrong with that if that's your cup of tea)

jezza23361
10.12.2010, 09:09
My wife runs and sings in a ladies voices choir - she got very stroppy with me when I suggested that I could sing falsetto and join them.

Jeremy

G D Bush
10.12.2010, 09:23
As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, many of the more prominent Salvation Army bands were for a long time male-only preserves. Amongst the arguments brought forward for this in the past have been:

Would women be able to give the same commitment?

Would it spoil the "male-only" spirit ? (odd maybe, but relevant when one considers that it was at least in part the bands that gave the Salvation Army a higher proportion of male members than other churches)

What would be the effect on the deportment, both indoors and on the march?

I was privileged to be in a meeting in the Manchester Division when Stockport Citadel band appeared for the first time in public with female members: I'm happy to say that the new arrivals were a credit to the band in all respects, and I think all the arguments listed above have been countered by now, even if it has meant some inevitable compromises regarding attendance, particularly where both husband and wife are involved with the band and there are child-care duties to be considered.

Good points...... But how do you explain the existing SA bands that still seem to pride themselves on being 'male only' groups....??? I know at least two centres where women are not in the bands, but that openly have girls in the junior band. Why arent they allowed to play in the main bands!? (particularly when there are regularly gaps in the 'Sunday' band, as opposed to the 'Saturday' band!!!)

P_S_Price
10.12.2010, 09:39
Good points...... But how do you explain the existing SA bands that still seem to pride themselves on being 'male only' groups....??? I know at least two centres where women are not in the bands, but that openly have girls in the junior band. Why arent they allowed to play in the main bands!? (particularly when there are regularly gaps in the 'Sunday' band, as opposed to the 'Saturday' band!!!)

Actually according to Regulations there arent any valid Reasons unless


All commissioned musicians must:
a) Be soldiers of The Salvation Army.
b) Undertake their responsibilities as members of the group with
integrity, having a clear understanding of current regulations and a
respect for the position and authority of their section leader.
c) Be committed to regular financial support of their corps through the
systematic giving scheme.
d) Accept the responsibility of subscription to sectional funds, thereby
sustaining the ongoing ministry of the section.
e) Regularly attend rehearsals and sectional activities, informing of
absence when unable to attend.
f) Conform to the required uniform code applicable with the corps
(which will in turn operate under territorial guidelines as issued from
time to time).
g) Be prepared to speak, sing, play or pray as opportunity arises.
h) Young people who have already been commissioned as musicians in
junior music sections/groups may be commissioned in senior music
sections/groups at any time subsequent to their becoming senior
soldiers.

You can be Dismissed for :


i. ceasing for any cause to be a soldier.
ii. persistent refusal to comply with regulations.
iii. proven consistent musical incompetence.
iv. conduct or lifestyle which continues to conflict with the standards
outlined in ‘A Soldiers Covenant’ and Chosen to be a Soldier.


I would suggest that any Women who feels they are excluded from an SA Band for any reason except one of the above, Speak to their Officer, and if that fails to resolve the situation, Speaks to their DC.

(BTW If any Women so affected are in our Division and they feel they want to play immedately, they can come to Rochdale and we will welcome them most warmly)

Simon Preshom
10.12.2010, 09:52
You can be Dismissed for :




iii. proven consistent musical incompetence.
iv. conduct or lifestyle which continues to conflict with the standards
outlined in ‘A Soldiers Covenant’ and Chosen to be a Soldier.


Woah, I can think of a fair chunk of bandmasters (iii) and bandsmen (iv) who should be sweating at this news.....

P_S_Price
10.12.2010, 10:03
Woah, I can think of a fair chunk of bandmasters (iii) and bandsmen (iv) who should be sweating at this news.....


I could probably include myself in Both Categories ;).

bariwizard
10.12.2010, 10:51
I can't believe that we still debate women being in top bands. The last two bastions of male only banding (B&R/ Grimy) have in recent times been pretty patchy and inconsistent when compared with the likes of Dyke and Cory, both of whom embrace the best of both sexes.
As far as protecting a "culture" goes I think that there is such a thing for bands as bad PR, and anything which helps these bands to escape the sad and embarrassing image of the Floral Dance on TOTP/ Brassed off (cringe!) is a good thing. David King has realised that he has taken the current crop at B&R about as far as they can go (a fortunate though not undeserved result at the Nationals) and wants the band to be as good as the ones which allow ladies.

G D Bush
10.12.2010, 10:53
Actually according to Regulations there arent any valid Reasons unless


All commissioned musicians must:
a) Be soldiers of The Salvation Army.
b) Undertake their responsibilities as members of the group with
integrity, having a clear understanding of current regulations and a
respect for the position and authority of their section leader.
c) Be committed to regular financial support of their corps through the
systematic giving scheme.
d) Accept the responsibility of subscription to sectional funds, thereby
sustaining the ongoing ministry of the section.
e) Regularly attend rehearsals and sectional activities, informing of
absence when unable to attend.
f) Conform to the required uniform code applicable with the corps
(which will in turn operate under territorial guidelines as issued from
time to time).
g) Be prepared to speak, sing, play or pray as opportunity arises.
h) Young people who have already been commissioned as musicians in
junior music sections/groups may be commissioned in senior music
sections/groups at any time subsequent to their becoming senior
soldiers.



Mmmmmm I wonder how many of the London based SA band (no Women!) actually comply to all the above! Rumours that some of them actually only have a 'red' tunic, no need for the black one! :confused:

To offer a slightly different slant to this thread, given that the split of male/female players in *most* brass bands (of all genres) is now pretty equal- why do so few females make it through to a conductorship or musical leadership position within bands?

DobX Dave
10.12.2010, 10:56
You can be Dismissed for :

iv. conduct or lifestyle which continues to conflict with the standards
outlined in ‘A Soldiers Covenant’ and Chosen to be a Soldier.




Have the rules been changed to include ‘extra marital relationships’ and the ‘consumption of alcohol’ ~ in order to keep the standard of the top SA Bands ?

Or are those in charge ‘turning a blind eye’ in order to keep the standard of their band.

Back to topic ~ best of luck to Brighouse.
My guess is that there has been more debate in other band rooms (and tmp) than there has been in Brighouse’s band room or band bus.

Simon Preshom
10.12.2010, 11:28
My guess is that there has been more debate in other band rooms (and tmp) than there has been in Brighouse’s band room or band bus.

Hmmmm, not sure about that!

JAlexK
10.12.2010, 11:50
Congrats due to Laura Hirst who has the job.
http://4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=12656

strongbow
10.12.2010, 12:57
:clap: congrats Laura, she's a fantastic player and has a wonderful sound

DMBabe
10.12.2010, 16:35
My wife runs and sings in a ladies voices choir - she got very stroppy with me when I suggested that I could sing falsetto and join them.

Jeremy

Probably cos she gets the impression you're taking the mick??? And she gets that you might be quite rubbish? :roll:

Bass Trumpet
10.12.2010, 17:16
My wife runs and sings in a ladies voices choir - she got very stroppy with me when I suggested that I could sing falsetto and join them.

Jeremy

She might have had to kick you somewhere first :eek:

Falsetto? I don't remember that one. I've played Rigoletto once or twice....:oops:

jockinafrock
10.12.2010, 22:58
Congrats due to Laura Hirst who has the job.
http://4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=12656

:clap:

towse1972
10.12.2010, 23:54
Have the rules been changed to include ‘extra marital relationships’ and the ‘consumption of alcohol’ ~ in order to keep the standard of the top SA Bands ?

Or are those in charge ‘turning a blind eye’ in order to keep the standard of their band.

Back to topic ~ best of luck to Brighouse.
My guess is that there has been more debate in other band rooms (and tmp) than there has been in Brighouse’s band room or band bus.
Ooof!

bigsound
11.12.2010, 06:45
:clap:well B and R join the 21 century good luck to them.

berkshire_baritone
12.12.2010, 09:22
i think all of the well informed salvation army comments here show how much of an issue this can be. the SA, which i was in, behaved over and over in a terrible way to your women by banning them from the senior band.

horribly un-christian. rubbish like that made me leave.

whilst the contesting world if different because it's easy to move to another band. in the army the band is only part of the corps, and moving elsewhere is much harder.

because it's a doddle to change bands in contesting and there's plenty of choice the debate falls down to if there's something fundermentally wrong with all male bands. i come back to the point i've made before in this thread, and say would you think it wrong if there was only one band who had a whites only policy. just one band. good black players had all the choice in the world apart from that one band.

would that be wrong?

if you think yes, (and i do to), then surely the same applies with women in bands.

Al
12.12.2010, 13:59
But it doesn't does it. You are trying to equate apples with bananas. Your just spouting the rhetoric of the politically correct.

As far as I am concerned if a band wants to be all men or all women that is entirely up to them. I really don't give a hoot. However, I can't same the same about a band that insisted on being all black or all white or whatever.

eflatbass
12.12.2010, 14:28
i think all of the well informed salvation army comments here show how much of an issue this can be. the SA, which i was in, behaved over and over in a terrible way to your women by banning them from the senior band.

horribly un-christian. rubbish like that made me leave.

whilst the contesting world if different because it's easy to move to another band. in the army the band is only part of the corps, and moving elsewhere is much harder.

because it's a doddle to change bands in contesting and there's plenty of choice the debate falls down to if there's something fundermentally wrong with all male bands. i come back to the point i've made before in this thread, and say would you think it wrong if there was only one band who had a whites only policy. just one band. good black players had all the choice in the world apart from that one band.

would that be wrong?


if you think yes, (and i do to), then surely the same applies with women in bands.

Perhaps I have been away from the SA too long to comment on your claim that women were actually banned from joining the senior band. Discouraged, perhaps, but surely not banned? I could give a number of reasons as to why I am no longer a uniformed salvationist, citing various weaknesses in the corps structure and amongst my fellow salvationists, but the root of the cause must be with the individual. That is why I point the finger at myself for not being worthy of wearing the uniform, rather than pointing it at others.

Your comments regarding men and women in bands, and whites and blacks, is not truly comparable. They are completely different issues.

towse1972
12.12.2010, 14:38
Your comments regarding men and women in bands, and whites and blacks, is not truly comparable. They are completely different issues.
In what way? Because the no women rule was "tradition"?

MoominDave
12.12.2010, 15:10
I'm guessing people are claiming this because there's inbuilt sexual tension between men and women. However, as a society, we've moved to a position where we've tacitly agreed to deal with this in the background, and effectively treat people as genderless for the purposes of hiring people to solve any task that isn't obviously gender-specific. We've done this because it seemed fairer on women, I should point out, lest somebody with a few buzzwords to throw about should start ranting on meannglessly about PC this, PC that..

Some people find this mental juggling act difficult. In my observation, it's these that tend to argue, and I can well understand why. It doesn't make them right, though.

eflatbass
12.12.2010, 15:17
In what way? Because the no women rule was "tradition"?

If I belonged to a band that a strict policy of not allowing women members, I would not be happy, but perhaps of not strong enough conviction to leave the band, particularly if I had been aware of the restriction before joining them.

On the other hand, if the band policy had been "whites only", I would not have become a member of that band.

Remember; these are my own personal views on the subject.

towse1972
12.12.2010, 15:52
If I belonged to a band that a strict policy of not allowing women members, I would not be happy, but perhaps of not strong enough conviction to leave the band, particularly if I had been aware of the restriction before joining them.

On the other hand, if the band policy had been "whites only", I would not have become a member of that band.

Remember; these are my own personal views on the subject.
So in your mind whilst racism isn't allowed, sexism is? We mustn't allow lack of equality for the ethnic minorities but we are allowed to discriminate against women? What a pile of Tosh! I would call you a biggot but I'm not allowed!!!! Shame on you and your aniquated views!

eflatbass
12.12.2010, 16:11
So in your mind whilst racism isn't allowed, sexism is? We mustn't allow lack of equality for the ethnic minorities but we are allowed to discriminate against women? What a pile of Tosh! I would call you a biggot but I'm not allowed!!!! Shame on you and your aniquated views!

Donna

I did state that I would not be happy if the band did not allow women members. In other words, I welcome the addition of female players to the ranks of banding at all levels. That’s hardly the attitude of a bigot, is it?

It’s been a while since I last played, so I suppose I could be accused of being antiquated! However; during my banding days I belonged to a number of bands of mixed sex, and never experienced any problems. The last band of which I was a member and where there were no women players, was way back in the dark ages, when I suspect this current debate was not even a considered issue. Proof again that I am indeed antiquated, but I have no way of apologising for my age.

Barry

leylandband
12.12.2010, 16:29
Congratulations to Laura on her, shall we say, 'discussion raising' appointment at B&R, from all your friends at Leyland.
Congratulations to the band too. We had the privilege of Laura's musicianship at London in October so we are well aware of what a superb player you have gained.

brassbandmaestro
12.12.2010, 20:37
Congratulations to B & R for signing Laura Hirst. A very talented musician and be a credit to the band.

P_S_Price
13.12.2010, 12:42
... That is why I point the finger at myself for not being worthy of wearing the uniform...

In all Honesty? I dont think that many of us in blue are worthy. It is nigh on Impossible in my view to live up 100% to the commitments made on the AoW. If I were that perfect I'd be deified!

eflatbass
13.12.2010, 14:40
In all Honesty? I dont think that many of us in blue are worthy. It is nigh on Impossible in my view to live up 100% to the commitments made on the AoW. If I were that perfect I'd be deified!

Hi Pete

You and I could probably spend all week discussing the pros and cons of being a uniformed Salvationist, but I reckon we would be booted off by the mods for diverting too much from the subject matter of this particular thread.

So; can I ask a relevant question? You have obviously been in and around SA bands for many years. Have you experienced situations where women have been banned from joining a band, or even discouraged?

Barry

Simon Preshom
13.12.2010, 15:17
Hi Pete

You and I could probably spend all week discussing the pros and cons of being a uniformed Salvationist, but I reckon we would be booted off by the mods for diverting too much from the subject matter of this particular thread.


Barry

So create a new thread then.... :-?

eflatbass
13.12.2010, 15:30
So create a new thread then.... :-?

Hi Simon

Having already gone a little off course, I do not think that TMP is quite the correct platform for such a thread, so I think I should stick to banding matters.

Barry

P_S_Price
13.12.2010, 15:33
Hi Pete

You and I could probably spend all week discussing the pros and cons of being a uniformed Salvationist, but I reckon we would be booted off by the mods for diverting too much from the subject matter of this particular thread.

So; can I ask a relevant question? You have obviously been in and around SA bands for many years. Have you experienced situations where women have been banned from joining a band, or even discouraged?

Barry

Its not an Officially recorded annal of the SA, but my Mum was the very First Woman to play with the ITC Cadets band (Companions of Christ Session). However as she was only allowed to play after the Band had already been formed and had its pictures taken, she is not the Official person I dont think (But she Defo played with them for most of the year).

Also Rochdale Citadel Band was for many years a Men Only Band. I think that this changed in the mid to late 70's (After we had transferred to Shaw and then moved to the ITC). Certainly when Rochdale SOngesters cam to Plumstead in the 80's they had women then.

Plumstead was I think a men only band for many years (At one point having ISB members in it), but by the time we got there (80s again) that policy had long gone.

I am trying to cast my mind back to Nunhead (agan mid to late 70's) to see if we had any women players at the time, and I have to say that I cant remember any off the top of my head.

In my experience most bands changed their policy when they were no longer able to form enough players with Men Only (Cynical Eh)? That was the main reason why my mum was able to join the Cadets Band.

All of the other SA bands I have played for have all had Women members.

As you say this is off topic , so best to leave it here (or start a new thread maybe), but in general for most of my life in SA Bands they have been 'Exclusive' in one form or another. That is to say, like many things in the SA a Club for Soldiers (and mainly long established ones at that - Songsters too for that matter). Far too many people have been lost because of problems in the sections. Too many Bandsmen/women and not enough Christans I think. I like to think that this is a problem that we have now addressed, and are well on the way to resolving at Rochdale! Certainly I think that our BM has one of the most progressive approaches you will find in the SA. :)

RussQ
13.12.2010, 22:56
Another consideration is the number of young people, particularly girls, taking up an instrument and sticking with it. I know when I joined the Marines Band back in '96, more than half our troop was female. If the same is happening in schools/colleges, perhaps these all male preserves might need to start entering the 21st Century!

Rapier
13.12.2010, 23:30
Russ, I think you'll find that you joined the ROYAL Marines! Get a grip, that man.

RussQ
13.12.2010, 23:41
Russ, I think you'll find that you joined the ROYAL Marines! Get a grip, that man.

Lol, Apologies, of course, once a Royal always a Royal! *****c***g accepted!

astreet83
14.12.2010, 08:58
Another consideration is the number of young people, particularly girls, taking up an instrument and sticking with it. I know when I joined the Marines Band back in '96, more than half our troop was female. If the same is happening in schools/colleges, perhaps these all male preserves might need to start entering the 21st Century!


Agree

When I was in the school band many moons ago, I was the only bloke :biggrin::tup and got out of lessons :clap:

Accidental
14.12.2010, 09:39
We mustn't allow lack of equality for the ethnic minorities but we are allowed to discriminate against women? What a pile of Tosh! I would call you a biggot but I'm not allowed!!!! Shame on you and your aniquated views!
:clap::clap::clap:

Couldn't agree more - discrimination is discrimination.

G D Bush
14.12.2010, 09:52
Have the rules been changed to include ‘extra marital relationships’ and the ‘consumption of alcohol’ ~ in order to keep the standard of the top SA Bands ?

Or are those in charge ‘turning a blind eye’ in order to keep the standard of their band.



Excellent post, and oh so true! The level of hypocrisy shown by some SA bands on many levels (lack of women, alcohol consumption, extra marital affairs, even not needing to attend on a Sunday!) still staggers me! :eek:

Al
14.12.2010, 11:12
No mention of Trinity Girls yet.

Having followed that band at the Regional Championships and their achievements for over 10 years I have never thought that having an all girl band is anything wrong.

No doubt there are some right on politically correct folks on this forum might like to label them bigots too, but I would say to do so would be shameful.

Bones
14.12.2010, 11:37
No mention of Trinity Girls yet.

Having followed that band at the Regional Championships and their achievements for over 10 years I have never thought that having an all girl band is anything wrong.

No doubt there are some right on politically correct folks on this forum might like to label them bigots too, but I would say to do so would be shameful.

Check post 27

pbirch
14.12.2010, 13:30
I
As you say this is off topic , so best to leave it here (or start a new thread maybe), but in general for most of my life in SA Bands they have been 'Exclusive' in one form or another. That is to say, like many things in the SA a Club for Soldiers (and mainly long established ones at that - Songsters too for that matter). Far too many people have been lost because of problems in the sections. Too many Bandsmen/women and not enough Christans I think. I like to think that this is a problem that we have now addressed, and are well on the way to resolving at Rochdale! Certainly I think that our BM has one of the most progressive approaches you will find in the SA. :)

we perhaps overlook the reason for brass bands being a men only institution, there was an elememt of social control in it, if you were not at band your mate would tell his wife, who would tell yours and you had to account for your whereabouts - women in the band were seen as an unnecessary temptation to the men. It is an historical reason that no longer applies.
As for the Salvation Army, every band that I have played in admitted women players because one of them was related to the bandmaster.
the outcome is right even though the means of getting there might be suspect.
I am opposed to any form of discrimination in banding, whether based on gender, race, age or disability, but as far as the Salvation Army is concerned, being a musician is based on being a full member of the worshipping community and accepting all the terms of membership. it would be harsh to judge all of us because some of our members either fail to live up to those terms or are duplicitous in their behaviour

towse1972
14.12.2010, 13:31
No mention of Trinity Girls yet.

Having followed that band at the Regional Championships and their achievements for over 10 years I have never thought that having an all girl band is anything wrong.

No doubt there are some right on politically correct folks on this forum might like to label them bigots too, but I would say to do so would be shameful.
I'm no Right on politically correct person either. Anyone that has ever known me would testify to that.
I ask you this question. Is it discrimination to say an all male band is ok but an all white band isnt? Is that a discrimnatory attitude?
Everytime I've seen Trinity girls band their has been a man right in their midst conducting them and generally a couple playing.

Brenda
14.12.2010, 13:58
It used to be that an errant husband could be packed off to band practice leaving his long-suffering wife happily cleaning the home, safe in the knowledge that her potentially adulterous spouse would be constructively occupied for two or three hours. Now there are women in bands and it just isn't safe for the dutiful wife to let her husband carry on with his musical activities. No wonder there are less brass players around - they're joining all-male gyms instead. Bring back all-male bands so our menfolk can be protected from the wiles of single, attractive young ladies....

DMBabe
14.12.2010, 14:32
It used to be that an errant husband could be packed off to band practice leaving his long-suffering wife happily cleaning the home, safe in the knowledge that her potentially adulterous spouse would be constructively occupied for two or three hours. Now there are women in bands and it just isn't safe for the dutiful wife to let her husband carry on with his musical activities. No wonder there are less brass players around - they're joining all-male gyms instead. Bring back all-male bands so our menfolk can be protected from the wiles of single, attractive young ladies....

Or maybe all-male bands are a cover-up? The old boys network may close ranks and protect a member who is misbehaving outside band by providing his alibi. After all, if a man wants to cheat there are plenty of places to find women and bear in mind people don't just cheat with single women.... :dunno

Brenda
14.12.2010, 14:43
.....bear in mind people don't just cheat with single women.... :dunno

Agreed. All-male gyms are roofed with attractive, single young men.....

notsosilentbob
14.12.2010, 15:35
Well Done to Laura :clap::clap:

It was clear to me 10 years ago (Oldham Brass '97) that she was going to a special player. Nice big article and picture in todays Daily Mirror as well. ;)

Hats Off :)

pbirch
14.12.2010, 16:15
Also Rochdale Citadel Band was for many years a Men Only Band. I think that this changed in the mid to late 70's (After we had transferred to Shaw and then moved to the ITC). Certainly when Rochdale SOngesters cam to Plumstead in the 80's they had women then.

. :)

Actually that is not strictly true, in the 1940s Rochdale SA band was almost a women only band, ask around, i am sure someone will still have the photographs. :)

Red Elvis
14.12.2010, 16:24
Have seen a picture of Old Ford band ( where my granddad was CSM ) with just women in although I gather that this was done as a bit of a novelty at the time ( ? late 50's / early 60's ) - it was though a mixed combination at the time anyway.

My dad was the BM at Colchester that let women into the band for the first time ( mid to late 70's ).

HelenPlaysBaritone
14.12.2010, 16:35
Bring back all-male bands so our menfolk can be protected from the wiles of single, attractive young ladies....

I hope you're taking the mick there! The tendancy of certain people to cheat is their fault and their problem, and should not be used as an excuse to discriminate.

According to today's Metro newspaper, Brighouse have taken on Laura Hirst.

This is corroborated at B&R's list of players on their own site:

Repiano Cornet Laura Hirst
http://www.brighouseandrastrickband.com/band/players.htm

Tiggerteach
14.12.2010, 18:07
Well done Laura...


Caroline Tighe

brassneck
14.12.2010, 18:25
... on BBC1 news at the moment!

eflatbass
14.12.2010, 18:44
... on BBC1 news at the moment!


Thanks to the BBC, but why oh why did they have to revive the Floral Dance?

Bungle
14.12.2010, 20:57
Nice big article and picture in todays Daily Mirror as well. ;)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/12/14/first-woman-player-for-world-famous-brighouse-and-rastrick-band-115875-22782252/

No picture though :(

Couldn't find anything on the Metro website

Al
14.12.2010, 22:17
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338246/Brassed-Off-Woman-27-plays-cornet-break-men-band.html

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/First-woman-musician-joins-allmale.6658434.jp

David Mann
14.12.2010, 23:07
"Brass ceiling" - excellent phrase.

Bones
15.12.2010, 00:23
Actually that is not strictly true, in the 1940s Rochdale SA band was almost a women only band, ask around, i am sure someone will still have the photographs. :)

Would that be because in the 40's there was a war on and many women slipped into male bastion type roles.

Thirteen Ball
15.12.2010, 11:16
<Applies devil's advocate hat>

Is it not tragic that this is headline news? And still more tragic that this will almost certainly be the only thing that Joe public hears about brass bands this year?

Taking nothing away from the achievement of the individual (Any player achieving appointment to B&R is always a personal triumph worthy of sincere congratulation) and while wholeheartedly agreeing with PAB's statement that the best exponent of the instrument and character-fit should get the chair regardless of any other factors.... I still think it's sad that biggest brass banding headline since the whole Dinnington Colliery TV thing is when we finally catch up with the 20th century, long after everyone else has left it.

There is fresh work commissioned and performed by our movement every year and brass bands entertain and educate thousands throughout the year. Bands support community events, raise money for local charities, encourage local youngsters into a worthy recreational pursuit, teach self-dicipline, personal self-betterment, the ability to take criticism constructively, respect for authority and the ability to work together as a team.

It's very sad that the only brass band story the national media have deemed newsworthy is one that must have made us seem even more quaint and outdated to Joe and Josephine public.

Just a thought.

<Removes Devil's advocate hat>

pbirch
15.12.2010, 12:26
Would that be because in the 40's there was a war on and many women slipped into male bastion type roles.

yes, as it was in all sorts of areas of life at that time. women weren't just kicked out of bands, but out of factories, offices and farms as well.

euphonium_john
15.12.2010, 13:42
....................it all went wrong when they got the vote!

GM3
15.12.2010, 13:54
Alan Hobbins Soprano! When did that happen?

Bones
15.12.2010, 13:56
yes, as it was in all sorts of areas of life at that time. women weren't just kicked out of bands, but out of factories, offices and farms as well.

Yep, sad indeed

jockinafrock
16.12.2010, 07:27
Good bit of publicity for B&R, Laura and lads on morning programme earlier :icon_biggrin:

StellaJohnson
16.12.2010, 08:20
Good bit of publicity for B&R, Laura and lads on morning programme earlier :icon_biggrin:

I have to disagree, she was interviewed on BBC radio Leeds last night. Didn't actually hear the interview, but heard the preview before. I don't think its great publicity for a band in the 21st century to allow there first female player. Its showing the public what an out dated movement we really are.

Bayerd
16.12.2010, 09:47
I have to disagree, she was interviewed on BBC radio Leeds last night. Didn't actually hear the interview, but heard the preview before. I don't think its great publicity for a band in the 21st century to allow there first female player. Its showing the public what an out dated movement we really are.

It could be argued that it's better than no publicity.....

Besides, it can't be that outdated anymore, there's only one all male band left :biggrin:.

astreet83
16.12.2010, 09:54
It could be argued that it's better than no publicity.....

Besides, it can't be that outdated anymore, there's only one all male band left :biggrin:.

My point too :clap:

Thirteen Ball
16.12.2010, 13:05
I have to disagree, she was interviewed on BBC radio Leeds last night. Didn't actually hear the interview, but heard the preview before. I don't think its great publicity for a band in the 21st century to allow there first female player. Its showing the public what an out dated movement we really are.

Exactly what I was trying to put accross in post #148

StellaJohnson
16.12.2010, 14:37
Exactly what I was trying to put accross in post #148

Just don't read posts do I.:D

Why do people repeat things are already said, is it to make you look clever or boost your post count;)

tromwinst
16.12.2010, 15:46
So what happens IF Laura was to leave and the next person that came along who was the right person and best player for the job, but sadly they were male?
Then.....even worse the bands personel didn't change for a few years.....what then?

Do we have to start the whole tarnishing of all male and female groups again?

All male schools.
All female schools.
All faith schools.
All female gyms.
All male changing rooms.
All female changing rooms.
All male toilets.
All female toilets.

Where does it start and stop???

Once again, please do not assume I am against mixed ensembles. That is NOT the case. You can see from my experience in playing that this is not the case.

Still nobody has addressed the point that the choice to play in an one sex ensemble, without being pigeon holed as being in the dark ages or being sexist or racist, IS being taken away?

geordiecolin
16.12.2010, 17:11
So what happens IF Laura was to leave and the next person that came along who was the right person and best player for the job, but sadly they were male?
Then.....even worse the bands personel didn't change for a few years.....what then?

Do we have to start the whole tarnishing of all male and female groups again?

All male schools.
All female schools.
All faith schools.
All female gyms.
All male changing rooms.
All female changing rooms.
All male toilets.
All female toilets.

Where does it start and stop???

Once again, please do not assume I am against mixed ensembles. That is NOT the case. You can see from my experience in playing that this is not the case.

Still nobody has addressed the point that the choice to play in an one sex ensemble, without being pigeon holed as being in the dark ages or being sexist or racist, IS being taken away?

So essentially what you are saying is that by providing choice, the ability to choose is being lost - that is to say the basis of a non-discriminatory society is itself ultimately discriminatory?

That's deep.

eflatbass
16.12.2010, 18:26
Still nobody has addressed the point that the choice to play in an one sex ensemble, without being pigeon holed as being in the dark ages or being sexist or racist, IS being taken away?

Personally, I have never chose to belong to a band of all males, and would never seek to do so. If there are members of this forum who would prefer to join an all-male or all-female band, I rather doubt they would state openly their preference for fear of severe reprisal from certain other members.

On a slightly different note, I contacted one of our top Salvation Army bands this week , and asked the leading question, "Is it your policy to bar women from your band, or are their other reasons for not having any women members?" The response was that there was no such policy, and that previously there had been female members. "It's just that we do not have any at present." Hmm; I wonder!

bariwizard
16.12.2010, 18:44
I contacted one of our top Salvation Army bands this week , and asked the leading question, "Is it your policy to bar women from your band, or are their other reasons for not having any women members?" The response was that there was no such policy, and that previously there had been female members. "It's just that we do not have any at present." Hmm; I wonder!

I don't think you can expect any paramilitary organisation to have a robust sexual equality policy. Your phone call probably wasted the time of someone who could have been banging a tamborine or playing carols instead - therefore indirectly depriving the needy. Shame on you;)

eflatbass
16.12.2010, 19:31
I don't think you can expect any paramilitary organisation to have a robust sexual equality policy. Your phone call probably wasted the time of someone who could have been banging a tamborine or playing carols instead - therefore indirectly depriving the needy. Shame on you;)

I was not looking to attract criticism of the Salvation Army as an organisation of which I am still very proud. The posting is related to the stance of bands allowing/not allowing female members.

critic
16.12.2010, 19:36
<applies devil's advocate hat>

is it not tragic that this is headline news? And still more tragic that this will almost certainly be the only thing that joe public hears about brass bands this year?

Taking nothing away from the achievement of the individual (any player achieving appointment to b&r is always a personal triumph worthy of sincere congratulation) and while wholeheartedly agreeing with pab's statement that the best exponent of the instrument and character-fit should get the chair regardless of any other factors.... I still think it's sad that biggest brass banding headline since the whole dinnington colliery tv thing is when we finally catch up with the 20th century, long after everyone else has left it.

There is fresh work commissioned and performed by our movement every year and brass bands entertain and educate thousands throughout the year. Bands support community events, raise money for local charities, encourage local youngsters into a worthy recreational pursuit, teach self-dicipline, personal self-betterment, the ability to take criticism constructively, respect for authority and the ability to work together as a team.

It's very sad that the only brass band story the national media have deemed newsworthy is one that must have made us seem even more quaint and outdated to joe and josephine public.

Just a thought.

<removes devil's advocate hat>

great post

Bones
17.12.2010, 00:54
Personally, I have never chose to belong to a band of all males, and would never seek to do so. If there are members of this forum who would prefer to join an all-male or all-female band, I rather doubt they would state openly their preference for fear of severe reprisal from certain other members.

On a slightly different note, I contacted one of our top Salvation Army bands this week , and asked the leading question, "Is it your policy to bar women from your band, or are their other reasons for not having any women members?" The response was that there was no such policy, and that previously there had been female members. "It's just that we do not have any at present." Hmm; I wonder!

I've been a member of all male bands and mixed. At the end of the day, I count my choice on the basis of do I get any musical satisfaction. It's got naff all to do with whether or not a member of the opposite sex plays or not, its about the music.

So yes Mr Eflat I would join an all male band, but only if I was musically satisfied. Which oddly enough is the same criteria for joining any band.

Any one fancy a pop. Clearly I am sexist..... :-)

eflatbass
17.12.2010, 14:45
So yes Mr Eflat I would join an all male band, but only if I was musically satisfied. Which oddly enough is the same criteria for joining any band.

Any one fancy a pop. Clearly I am sexist..... :-)

Ah; but that's not the same as actively seeking to join an all male band, so you are probably safe from any attacks...:).....but I may be wrong!

andreab
23.12.2010, 13:13
Laura Hirst is going to be on Woman's Hour tomorrow (Christmas Eve 10 - 10.45 am Radio 4), discussing being the first woman to play for Brighouse.

Beesa
24.12.2010, 13:39
Interview is here:

http://www.4shared.com/account/audio/2iMM4Zr3/20101224_Womans_Hour_-_Laura_H.html

Full Womans Hour Programme here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00wqgmd/Womans_Hour_24_12_2010

go to 37minutes 30 seconds

ploughboy
24.12.2010, 19:53
Laura Hirst is going to be on Woman's Hour tomorrow (Christmas Eve 10 - 10.45 am Radio 4), discussing being the first woman to play for Brighouse.

But a friend of a friend who saw B&R playing at Buxton said A) No Lady's playing, rumour amongst the bandsmen in the crowd was she's already left? B) band had a lot of guests, including conductor and didn't play at their best . . . anyone else see this concert can confirm any of this?

Bayerd
24.12.2010, 22:58
But a friend of a friend who saw B&R playing at Buxton said A) No Lady's playing, rumour amongst the bandsmen in the crowd was she's already left? B) band had a lot of guests, including conductor and didn't play at their best . . . anyone else see this concert can confirm any of this?

Laura wasn't there, however Lucy Murphy played Flugel and Anna Hughes played bumper up.

I'm not one to say that no ladies were playing......http://img.cyclechat.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/whistling.gif

MickM
25.12.2010, 01:21
But a friend of a friend who saw B&R playing at Buxton said A) No Lady's playing, rumour amongst the bandsmen in the crowd was she's already left? B) band had a lot of guests, including conductor and didn't play at their best . . . anyone else see this concert can confirm any of this?


Hi Garry,

Firstly, your friend of a friend wasn't paying attention.

As Bayerd said, we did have 2 (two) ladies playing with us at Buxton, and a very fine job they did for the band.

Being a loyal person, Laura wasn't with us at Buxton due to a prior commitment.

We do have a few vacancys at present which we are working very hard to fill with the right 'persons'. Hence some of the guests!

Our guest conductor (who we have a very good association with) was booked to take the band at all our Christmas concerts approx 6 months ago.

I'm sorry your friend of a friend didn't enjoy the concert, I personally prefer the more serious concerts, allthough I did enjoy the more relaxed Christmassy atmosphere.

Thanks for your interest.

Hope this helps!

Merry Christmas!

cornet96
25.12.2010, 22:17
Thanks for the more exact info.

Is Laura now with the band 100 percent?

basebonetone
26.12.2010, 12:41
She is

tindagrae
28.12.2010, 23:40
I've been a member of all male bands and mixed. At the end of the day, I count my choice on the basis of do I get any musical satisfaction. It's got naff all to do with whether or not a member of the opposite sex plays or not, its about the music.

So yes Mr Eflat I would join an all male band, but only if I was musically satisfied. Which oddly enough is the same criteria for joining any band.

Any one fancy a pop. Clearly I am sexist..... :-)

:clap: Excellent post

pbirch
29.12.2010, 09:24
:clap: Excellent post

I am afraid that I am not so sure that it is an excellent post, or that it represents anything like a reasonable approach to eliminating discrimination in any of forms within brass bands or society. There can be no doubt that such discrimination is a bad thing, and I am reminded of Edmund Burkes words that *for evil to triumph all that a good man has to do is nothing", and I am sure that we are all "good men". And, whilst women playing in a particular band may seem like a rather trivial issue, it should prompt a serious consideration of all the other forms of discrimination (race, disability, age, sexual orientation etc) that might just be bubbling below the surface.

PeterBale
29.12.2010, 10:41
I see Lucy Murphy is the second female recruit, joining on flugel.

tindagrae
29.12.2010, 11:18
I am afraid that I am not so sure that it is an excellent post, or that it represents anything like a reasonable approach to eliminating discrimination in any of forms within brass bands or society. There can be no doubt that such discrimination is a bad thing, and I am reminded of Edmund Burkes words that *for evil to triumph all that a good man has to do is nothing", and I am sure that we are all "good men". And, whilst women playing in a particular band may seem like a rather trivial issue, it should prompt a serious consideration of all the other forms of discrimination (race, disability, age, sexual orientation etc) that might just be bubbling below the surface.

I think you miss the point of Bones post and the reasons of why it is an excellent post - it's nothing to do with race, sex, disability or sexual orientation, it's to do with the fact of whether you feel musically satisfied playing in the band you are with. I wholeheartedly agree with those sentiments - does that mean I am sexist? I don't think so, it means that I exercise one of the most fundamental human rights, choice, which should not be incorrectly misplaced as being discriminatory in any way.

MoominDave
29.12.2010, 13:33
Well, I didn't comment when Rich made his post, but I did think 'I bet he'd feel a lot less passive about it if a 50/50 flip of genetic chance had gone the other way'...

That's the key, as pbirch pointed out. As a fair-minded individual, you can passively stand by and live with something that you wouldn't personally have set up that way, but at the cost of hypocrisy. We all make trade-offs in life, and it's clear that many are happy to make a trade-off here.

towse1972
29.12.2010, 15:31
I am afraid that I am not so sure that it is an excellent post, or that it represents anything like a reasonable approach to eliminating discrimination in any of forms within brass bands or society. There can be no doubt that such discrimination is a bad thing, and I am reminded of Edmund Burkes words that *for evil to triumph all that a good man has to do is nothing", and I am sure that we are all "good men". And, whilst women playing in a particular band may seem like a rather trivial issue, it should prompt a serious consideration of all the other forms of discrimination (race, disability, age, sexual orientation etc) that might just be bubbling below the surface.
Now, that is an excellent post! :clap: