View Full Version : Results Nationals 2010
Congratulations to Brighouse, Cory and Fairey in particular as being the three bands who gave exceptional performances according to the comments I have seen. Wasn't there, but 4Barsrest said they thought Dyke played well, but they didn't show in the top 6 - any ideas why anyone (other than that is what the adjudicators thought)?
Brian Bowen
11.10.2010, 13:54
It does seem strange that for a movement so utterly caught up in contesting there's been no comment as far as I can see about the result of one of the biggest contests going or the merits of the various bands. All I can find is a thread about the antics of one particular participant on the day.
Was everyone left feeling numb?
Anglo Music Press
11.10.2010, 17:31
It does seem strange that for a movement so utterly caught up in contesting there's been no comment as far as I can see about the result of one of the biggest contests going or the merits of the various bands. All I can find is a thread about the antics of one particular participant on the day.
Was everyone left feeling numb?
Well, here goes.....
There was some spectacularly good playing on Saturday. No-one got through the "easy" piece unscathed, even though some MDs tried to ameliorate the works challenges by rescoring it. (some examples of which left me open-mouthed!!).
Cory were sensational, Briggus very, very good indeed and Dyke very, very good indeed (didn't hear Fairey's I'm afraid.) Rothwell, Leyland and GUS played very well too. For me, Cory edged it (just) because the piece really came to life when they played it; lots of detail in the fast bits and a wonderful flow in the slow bits. But the judges said there was not much to choose between the top three. And I was listening quite high up in the hall, so the judges probably heard different performances anyway!
Not sure why Dyke didn't feature higher. From where I sat they didn't quite have the detail of Cory and Briggus in the loud sections but we are talking very small percentages indeed here!
Paid £25 for a ticket and felt as though I had bought a ticket to watch a 10K race where lots the runners took short cuts. I have such admiration for the quality of the top bands, I would LOVE to see them play the piece as the composer wrote it. They have the best players, so, why not? I have an interest in this as a composer, of course, but also as a punter in ths case.
Not sure why Dyke didn't feature higher.
'Twould be nice to be able to believe that they were penalised for the substitutions ...
Don't suppose we'll ever know.
Well, here goes.....
There was some spectacularly good playing on Saturday. No-one got through the "easy" piece unscathed, even though some MDs tried to ameliorate the works challenges by rescoring it. (some examples of which left me open-mouthed!!).
Cory were sensational, Briggus very, very good indeed and Dyke very, very good indeed (didn't hear Fairey's I'm afraid.) Rothwell, Leyland and GUS played very well too. For me, Cory edged it (just) because the piece really came to life when they played it; lots of detail in the fast bits and a wonderful flow in the slow bits. But the judges said there was not much to choose between the top three. And I was listening quite high up in the hall, so the judges probably heard different performances anyway!
Not sure why Dyke didn't feature higher. From where I sat they didn't quite have the detail of Cory and Briggus in the loud sections but we are talking very small percentages indeed here!
Paid £25 for a ticket and felt as though I had bought a ticket to watch a 10K race where lots the runners took short cuts. I have such admiration for the quality of the top bands, I would LOVE to see them play the piece as the composer wrote it. They have the best players, so, why not? I have an interest in this as a composer, of course, but also as a punter in ths case.
This is why all contests should be open adjudication... let the adjudicator see the performance as a whole and dont allow him/her to be hoodwinked at the bands leisure.
Lets face it, chances are the adjudicators MUST know by the lead players tones etc who they are (ie even I can recognise David Thorntons playing) and so therefore the bands identity is not a secret anyhow!
Let the adjudicators use their eyes as well as their ears and let bands who dont play the score as written be judged by the adjudicator for doing so! (my opinion only)
marc71178
11.10.2010, 18:54
Which is all well and good, but how do you propose adjudicators follow the score AND watch the people on stage whilst all the time having to concentrate on listening to the music AND make notes on it?
David Mann
11.10.2010, 19:34
Which is all well and good, but how do you propose adjudicators follow the score AND watch the people on stage whilst all the time having to concentrate on listening to the music AND make notes on it?
As other people have said, have another official in the open just looking for "infringements".
Did anyone go to the open rehearsals? Did the bands in question rehearse the swapping of parts there?
BrassFlyer
11.10.2010, 19:40
Congratulations to Brighouse, Cory and Fairey in particular as being the three bands who gave exceptional performances according to the comments I have seen. Wasn't there, but 4Barsrest said they thought Dyke played well, but they didn't show in the top 6 - any ideas why anyone (other than that is what the adjudicators thought)?
Does anyone know the actual results I cant find them anywhere:-?
Which is all well and good, but how do you propose adjudicators follow the score AND watch the people on stage whilst all the time having to concentrate on listening to the music AND make notes on it?
With Open adjudication, the bands wouldnt know whether or not they were being watched and so they either choose to run the risk of swopping parts etc or not...i would hazzard a guess that bands wouldnt want to take the chance!
I think the silence regarding this result is the collective sound of 4500 people suddenly realising they know nothing about brass bands.... How foolish we all feel that after listening all day to bands struggling with the test piece, we hear with Black Dyke (and Brighouse and Cory earlier) a truly outstanding peformance that had detail, class emanating from every page of the score, contrasts, accuracy, a fine sense of structure and musical shape with every phrase, with a sound as good as you are likely to hear this decade, only to be subsequently told it was the 8th best on the day. We all hold our collective heads in embarrassment at our foolishness.
The future though is potentially brighter, if we dare to contemplate open adjudication, separate marking from judges, marking to a universally agreed and accepted criteria, using the brightest musical talents to carry out this very important task of dishing out our brand of musical justice to all competing bands and fee paying punters.
Super Ph
11.10.2010, 21:27
Which is all well and good, but how do you propose adjudicators follow the score AND watch the people on stage whilst all the time having to concentrate on listening to the music AND make notes on it?
you don't need to follow the score - you can see your favourite band coming on stage.
iancwilx
11.10.2010, 22:09
This is why all contests should be open adjudication... let the adjudicator see the performance as a whole and dont allow him/her to be hoodwinked at the bands leisure.
Lets face it, chances are the adjudicators MUST know by the lead players tones etc who they are (ie even I can recognise David Thorntons playing) and so therefore the bands identity is not a secret anyhow!
Let the adjudicators use their eyes as well as their ears and let bands who dont play the score as written be judged by the adjudicator for doing so! (my opinion only)
I played a lower section piece at Butlins a few years ago where the back row had the main melody for quite a few bars.
The winning band totally transferred this section of the piece to the front row.
I was sat in the front row when they played and was amazed at this blatant jaw dropping subterfuge.
They won 1st Prize and we came second.
(Our back row played well)
I know that these things go on in banding, and I took it on the chin, but I think open adjudication would go some way to stamping out such blatant tricks.
BTW, these are strictly my own personal comments, and, having retired from playing quite some time ago, I do NOT speak for any band whatsoever.
- Mr Wilx
- Mr Wilx
PeterBale
11.10.2010, 22:49
I enjoyed the day on Saturday, hearing 17 of the 20 performances. We didn't stay for the results as we had family over for the weekend, but were very surprised not to see Dyke in the top 3. My personal feeling is that the adjudicators may have felt they took the opening a little fast, losing out on the clarity they were looking for. This was one of the concerns Martin Ellerby had highlighted in his talk at Regent Hall , which he illustrated with three different recorded versions.
No quibbles over the rest of the placings, though. Jonathan had Brighouse first whilst I thought Cory had done enough to hang on. I was particularly pleased to see GUS in the frame: I thought they handled the solo passages as well as anyone, and it showed you don't necessarily need to have a massive sound to produce a good result.
Splitzer
11.10.2010, 23:10
I think the silence regarding this result is the collective sound of 4500 people suddenly realising they know nothing about brass bands.... How foolish we all feel that after listening all day to bands struggling with the test piece, we hear with Black Dyke (and Brighouse and Cory earlier) a truly outstanding peformance that had detail, class emanating from every page of the score, contrasts, accuracy, a fine sense of structure and musical shape with every phrase, with a sound as good as you are likely to hear this decade, only to be subsequently told it was the 8th best on the day. We all hold our collective heads in embarrassment at our foolishness.
The future though is potentially brighter, if we dare to contemplate open adjudication, separate marking from judges, marking to a universally agreed and accepted criteria, using the brightest musical talents to carry out this very important task of dishing out our brand of musical justice to all competing bands and fee paying punters.
Hang on. This record has got stuck again.
Hang on. This record has got stuck again.
Well, keep listening ;)
doctor thick
12.10.2010, 09:10
I was really pleased for B and R. Their time will come again in yorkshire. They have the best conductor in that area by a country mile and with a couple of players recruited in key possitions which they have the pulling power to do, talent will prevail over the dark shadow of cliche ridden mediocrity that has made banding the bore fest it has been for the last 7/8 years. I was surprised at the relatively simple nature of what was obviously a concert item with a random cadenza section thrown in for contests. Why is it that was apparently a championship test peice yet the very hard and musically pukka Diversions on a bass theme is now a lower section peice? The Albert hall was fairly dead, time for a change? After all London is getting harder and harder to afford and navigate in these tough times.
I think the silence regarding this result is the collective sound of 4500 people suddenly realising they know nothing about brass bands.... How foolish we all feel that after listening all day to bands struggling with the test piece, we hear with Black Dyke (and Brighouse and Cory earlier) a truly outstanding peformance that had detail, class emanating from every page of the score, contrasts, accuracy, a fine sense of structure and musical shape with every phrase, with a sound as good as you are likely to hear this decade, only to be subsequently told it was the 8th best on the day. We all hold our collective heads in embarrassment at our foolishness.
The future though is potentially brighter, if we dare to contemplate open adjudication, separate marking from judges, marking to a universally agreed and accepted criteria, using the brightest musical talents to carry out this very important task of dishing out our brand of musical justice to all competing bands and fee paying punters.
So how do we move to open, separate adjudication for example? Who are we waiting for .... the bands themselves?
marc71178
12.10.2010, 13:11
With Open adjudication, the bands wouldnt know whether or not they were being watched and so they either choose to run the risk of swopping parts etc or not...i would hazzard a guess that bands wouldnt want to take the chance!
So not actually answering the question then...
So not actually answering the question then...
Sorry, I will try to make my point a little clearer....
Q: How would the adjudicator follow the score whilst at the same time watch the band on stage?
A: He wouldn't be able to, but the fact that he 'MAY' be watching would be enough to stop bands trying to deceive him.
bassendworld
12.10.2010, 18:26
How refreshing to hear a relative new comer to adjudicating at the highest level take the trouble that they had listened with interest to the composer on the pre contest talk and that they understood his requirements of the picture he painted with the music.
B&R obviously found that picture as well.
Others may have been technically faultless and produced a massive sound
Alas according to the only person that knows that wasn't what was required.
No issue
I think the silence regarding this result is the collective sound of 4500 people suddenly realising they know nothing about brass bands.... How foolish we all feel that after listening all day to bands struggling with the test piece, we hear with Black Dyke (and Brighouse and Cory earlier) a truly outstanding peformance that had detail, class emanating from every page of the score, contrasts, accuracy, a fine sense of structure and musical shape with every phrase, with a sound as good as you are likely to hear this decade, only to be subsequently told it was the 8th best on the day. We all hold our collective heads in embarrassment at our foolishness.
The future though is potentially brighter, if we dare to contemplate open adjudication, separate marking from judges, marking to a universally agreed and accepted criteria, using the brightest musical talents to carry out this very important task of dishing out our brand of musical justice to all competing bands and fee paying punters.
I Wonder what your view is of all the part swapping that goes on
rosolino
14.10.2010, 19:14
So how do we move to open, separate adjudication for example? Who are we waiting for .... the bands themselves?
Scottish Open 2010. Howard Snell, Hans Buchegger conductor of Brass Band Oberosterreich and Simon Dobson composer of the testpiece. All in the open and apart. SBBA lead the way again. :clap:
kingsmessenger
14.10.2010, 21:25
How refreshing to hear a relative new comer to adjudicating at the highest level take the trouble that they had listened with interest to the composer on the pre contest talk and that they understood his requirements of the picture he painted with the music.
B&R obviously found that picture as well.
Others may have been technically faultless and produced a massive sound
Alas according to the only person that knows that wasn't what was required.
No issue
Well said. We clearly p**sed this contest by a mile, and it is sadly only a matter of time before this turns into a bitter and retarded "we wuz robbed" thread as always on here after a contest.
Stephen Bourne
14.10.2010, 21:32
I sat in the front row so the acoustics are clearly different from those of the adjudicators. From where I sat the consensus was Brighouse, Cory and Fairey were all excellent but then so were Dyke. Dyke not being in the framewas the upset not Brighouse winning I would say.
As far as moving parts around most but not all did it. I think I noticed a well known former top seat Dyke player sitting fourth man down for Brighouse. This 4th man did the repiano cadenza wonderfully. And why not? The proof of the pudding is in the eating.....
Anyway you put it this was a wondeful test piece with some wonderful playing and one upset.
A great day out.
Stephen Bourne
14.10.2010, 21:40
I watched the faces of players from every band, even the experienced ones, as they came on stage and took in the wonderful arena that is the RAH. Long may it stay that way. Despite any arguments to the contrary about costs and acoustics, London is one of the greatest cities in the World and the RAH an icon within. Great to be able to tell your grand children you played there. And by the way you can get a pint for £2 only 3 minutes walk from the stage door.
Well said. We clearly p**sed this contest by a mile, and it is sadly only a matter of time before this turns into a bitter and retarded "we wuz robbed" thread as always on here after a contest.
Not my point, of course. My statement clearly congratulated the top three bands, just asked what happened to Dyke when 4Barsrest (and now others since) said they were very good. I don't think anybody has said B&R should not have won, just why were Dyke 8th?
Tubawolves
17.10.2010, 18:04
Not my point, of course. My statement clearly congratulated the top three bands, just asked what happened to Dyke when 4Barsrest (and now others since) said they were very good. I don't think anybody has said B&R should not have won, just why were Dyke 8th?
Bit controversial I know but Dyke have no divine right to be in the frame. An amazing band? Yes, amazing players? Yes, A baritone cadenza played on solo Horn? Yes! (last year the mutes?) Maybe, just maybe the failure to adhere to the composers scoring finally caught up with them? It is also surprising no one has mentioned the placed bands seem to have taken the piece less agressively than others and I believe those bands were rewarded because that's what the adjudicators wanted this year.
My own band played particularly well and sought to capture Australia's less romantic side, continent with the most poisonous/dangerous animals on the planet, most areas of hostile wasteland, bit of a place where you walk in the wrong direction and no one sees you again sort of thing. We were in your face but it wasn't nerves or lacking class we actually wanted to portray an aggressive continent. It didn't pay off and we accept it end of story. The composers notes weren't exactly romantic or gentle in nature either. We don't think we got it wrong but fully accept the result and the adjudicators right to their own tastes. They mentioned not to their own tastes no fewer than five times in our adjudication? Bit of a conundrum there? Adjudicators tastes or composers writing?
My own view is simple, you don't like the competition rules and sytem of adjudication
don't enter! It's been a great year for banding with two unexpected names on two major's - long may it continue.:clap:
Sir_Threepwood
19.10.2010, 15:51
Not my point, of course. My statement clearly congratulated the top three bands, just asked what happened to Dyke when 4Barsrest (and now others since) said they were very good. I don't think anybody has said B&R should not have won, just why were Dyke 8th?
I think, the hearable parts-swapping combined with a bit of a "boring" interpretation (boring is certainly the wrong word, but Mr. King was the one the brought emotions into the piece) maybe did the trick that day.
jockinafrock
19.10.2010, 18:07
Well said. We clearly p**sed this contest by a mile, and it is sadly only a matter of time before this turns into a bitter and retarded "we wuz robbed" thread as always on here after a contest.
Maybe I have interpreted your statement incorrectly, and if I have, I apologise... but if I haven't I find your attitude sad, arrogant, conceited and blase. :mad: To me it sounds as though you are a player from the winning band? How you think you pee'd this contest by a mile beggars belief and, if I were also a fellow member of the band, I would be embarrassed by this statement! :oops:
By the way - I was involved in the draw and heard what the adjudicators said they wanted from the piece - they had no preconceived ideas and only wanted to hear what bands could do with the music. No-one is claiming 'they wuz robbed' only their surprise about certain bands not being in the frame.
Incidentally I thought Dyke were too loud... ;)
kingsmessenger
19.10.2010, 23:17
Wouldn't sweat about the other places too much if I were you sweetheart. There is only one (Purple & Gold) winner, and 19 losers - put them in whatever order you like as far as I'm concerned.
Tubawolves
20.10.2010, 02:00
Wouldn't sweat about the other places too much if I were you sweetheart. There is only one (Purple & Gold) winner, and 19 losers - put them in whatever order you like as far as I'm concerned.
:D Enjoy while you can, I guess I would be pretty pleased with myself had my team lifted the big prize. Not knocking your moment as I have a number of friends who lifted it with you - They just have something about them I find endearing and which you appear (through your posts) to lack. Humility!
Shame
jockinafrock
20.10.2010, 07:33
Wouldn't sweat about the other places too much if I were you sweetheart. There is only one (Purple & Gold) winner, and 19 losers - put them in whatever order you like as far as I'm concerned.
If you say so..... :rolleyes:
kingsmessenger
20.10.2010, 07:36
If it's humility you are after at this point please contact a member of Black Dyke, Fodens, Cory or any of the other bands that took part. They have loads of it at the moment and I think you will find it most endearing.:tup
You're doing your best to bring a great band into disrepute. Shame on you.
Laserbeam bass
20.10.2010, 12:03
If it's humility you are after at this point please contact a member of Black Dyke, Fodens, Cory or any of the other bands that took part. They have loads of it at the moment and I think you will find it most endearing.:tup
Just wondering if these are your personal thoughts, or you are as your username suggests, the messenger. If it is the latter wonder what the alleged originator of these outbursts would think.
Any way, back on topic, congrats to your band for winning, and let's hope you can back up all your comments and return victorious next year, and for many years to come. If this is not the case, will we see you in the corresponding thread next year, and beyond, bringing into question the adjudicator, the acoustics, the hotel, the coach driver and the tea lady?
Masterblaster jnr
20.10.2010, 13:35
You're doing your best to bring a great band into disrepute. Shame on you.
Or maybe someone should message the mods, as with no playing experience, name in the signature or proof that he actually plays with Brighouse it seems obvious that it's some little sad act trying to stir things to get the band a bad name.
Funny how the join date was very recent too. Sour grapes from another top band maybe?
Personally i wasnt at the contest so can't say whether they ****ed it, but, even if they did, there's no people in that band who would be immature enough to post c**p like that.
Or maybe someone should message the mods, as with no playing experience, name in the signature or proof that he actually plays with Brighouse it seems obvious that it's some little sad act trying to stir things to get the band a bad name.
Funny how the join date was very recent too. Sour grapes from another top band maybe?
Personally i wasnt at the contest so can't say whether they ****ed it, but, even if they did, there's no people in that band who would be immature enough to post c**p like that.
A fifth columnist - thought as much. If you weren't there, who was that on 1st Horn Jonny?
Masterblaster jnr
20.10.2010, 14:54
A fifth columnist - thought as much. If you weren't there, who was that on 1st Horn Jonny?
:-?
Or maybe someone should message the mods
We're already keeping an eye on this thread and the possible trolls that are posting in it. :rolleyes:
towse1972
21.10.2010, 16:25
:-?
If your going to have a second account you need to keep it to yourself Jonny you twonk! hahahahahah...
Masterblaster jnr
21.10.2010, 23:21
If your going to have a second account you need to keep it to yourself Jonny you twonk! hahahahahah...
:-?:confused::rolleyes::):pig
sharpnote
28.10.2010, 13:57
An investigation has taken place to find who the 'kingsmessenger' is and I can confirm this is not a playing member of our Band.
I can assure you all that Brighouse and Rastrick are very thankful for all your kind words regarding our performance at London. It is a very proud day to win the Nationals after a 12 year wait!
Funny results happen to us all... I mean look at the Open! As a Band, we came off stage with the utmost confidence of a winning performance but only achieved 10th place and then the winning Band weren't even considered by most of the listeners (or the trialled scorecards). I'm sure it had the qualities that the adjudicators were looking for though. In hindsight, we could have been better, but we learned from the adjudicators comments and aimed to improve for the next contest.
As for Dyke.. They will get back on winning form soon enough. In the mean time, if they want to see the trophy, it's only down the road!
P_S_Price
29.10.2010, 09:49
Well Done to B&R. In reallity does the Brass Band movement really want a premiership style of operation where only one, 2 or 3 bands always win?
Isnt this diversity a good thing?
blasterbates
29.10.2010, 13:11
An investigation has taken place to find who the 'kingsmessenger' is and I can confirm this is not a playing member of our Band.
....... and I can assure you all that Jonny is as annoyed about this as anyone - indeed he reported these posts to the mods himself.
Fair play - a few years ago he used to post some real s**t on this site and I was the first to chastise him for it.
Now he has better things to do with his time, and leaves garbage such as this to the likes of 'kingsmessanger'.
....... and I can assure you all that Jonny is as annoyed about this as anyone - indeed he reported these posts to the mods himself.
Fair play - a few years ago he used to post some real s**t on this site and I was the first to chastise him for it.
Now he has better things to do with his time, and leaves garbage such as this to the likes of 'kingsmessanger'.
From your post it looks as if Jonny/Danny's been suspected of being the messenger. How many accounts has he had over the past few years?
Masterblaster jnr
30.10.2010, 00:26
2. Other is duck of something. Which got deleted i believe, as the mods judged it to be my second account.
Anyway, yet another nice little thread with around 5 relevant posts before people start picking holes in each other's posts and going back on what they say, etc etc etc. The point is kingsmessenger's views are not at all representative of the band's views on the result
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