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Di
30.09.2008, 09:27
Discussion thread for the Regionals 2009
Championship Section Test Piece

Salute to Youth
Gilbert Vinter

:)

brassbandmaestro
30.09.2008, 09:42
Although not in this section. This piece has been flogged to death at con tests. I am surprised to see it again. I would've thought, something of the ordrr of a Philip Sparke piece, eg Cambridge Variaitons etc would make a change. Others I have thought of are a couple of George Lloyd's, eg King's Messenger or Royal Parks.

Vinter has his anniversary year next year as well, so there be more of the same next year, no doubt. Why not Variations on a Ninth or John O'Gaunt?

HUDDSBASSBONE
30.09.2008, 10:03
Royal Parks was used not long since in the 1st Section areas. 2002 I think. Anyway, I remember it clearly 'cos the band I played with at the time played an absolute stonker - and came 4th!!

brassbandmaestro
30.09.2008, 10:07
Royal Parks was used not long since in the 1st Section areas. 2002 I think. Anyway, I remember it clearly 'cos the band I played with at the time played an absolute stonker - and came 4th!!

Maybe King's Messenger, what apiece. I love that ending!!

HBB
30.09.2008, 10:37
Or we could look forward.

snazzy_cornet_sound
30.09.2008, 10:52
The last movement could cause a headache for adjudicators , you have to play it as fast as possible, so if your playing it too slow your playing it safe, but if your playing it fast you could be rushing???

Ipswich trom
30.09.2008, 11:01
The last movement could cause a headache for adjudicators , you have to play it as fast as possible, so if your playing it too slow your playing it safe, but if your playing it fast you could be rushing???

Surely if it says"As fast as possible" then the speed you take it will be the relevant speed for the ability of your band and as such the tempo then isn't part of the adjudication.

I'm only joking of course!!!!

KMJ Recordings
30.09.2008, 11:04
The secret is in the making it sound like it's all under the finger even when it's flying....which is why it's hard ;)

snazzy_cornet_sound
30.09.2008, 11:13
it actually pretty much is all under the finger!! its the triple toungeing part that could cause problems for people!

KMJ Recordings
30.09.2008, 11:25
....plus making sure you don't stutter in the middle of the syncopation by trying to be too deliberate about it.....

Bass Man
30.09.2008, 19:11
I'm looking forward to it. Great choice :tup:tup:tup

sop 1
30.09.2008, 20:17
yea me too! great piece :D

Blagger
30.09.2008, 20:26
I like it - great euph solo

geordiecolin
01.10.2008, 12:50
I'm looking forward to it. Great choice :tup:tup:tup

What he said!

robcav
01.10.2008, 19:54
Fond memories of this piece with Yorkshire Co-op at the 1999 First section National Finals. Love the second movement and the euph solo. Looking forward to playing it again.

paddo
01.10.2008, 22:38
got to agree with you rob, love the piece, music, all of it, bring it on......

RussQ
01.10.2008, 22:44
Could see some interesting results as most bands should be able to give this a pretty good go. The big boys may not have it all their own way which is not necessarily a bad thing.
I'll be looking forward? to getting to grips with 'Pentacle' which by all accounts is quite a test for those of us languishing in the first section.
Good luck to one and all.

tam-tam2
02.10.2008, 00:30
I personally love the piece and will be looking forward to listening to the Championship Section bands in the South West playing it and being thoroughly jealous that I don't get to play it myself!! With the piece having being used as the Finals piece in the First Section in 1999(?) I was suprised by its choice so soon again, especially in the top section. Although, I am sure that getting music out of Romance and bands take on the final movement will sort the men from the boys next March!!

I will have to put up with Pentacle, hope the cornet part isn't too tasty!!!

DannyCollin
02.10.2008, 01:24
Fond memories of this piece with Yorkshire Co-op at the 1999 First section National Finals. Love the second movement and the euph solo. Looking forward to playing it again.


ahh yes, i remember it well, 3rd wasnt it? just back from Switzerland?

brassbandmaestro
02.10.2008, 08:14
In the last movement, the band certainly has to go at a cracking pace!! Good luck people!!

GeordieSop
03.10.2008, 21:58
I'm not really familiar with this piece at all but i've just listened to Dyke play the last section (Jewels of the crown CD3) and sounds like it's gonna be a good piece to practice/play

Just hope our band don't take it as fast as what Dyke have done lol :eek:

JR
06.10.2008, 13:06
ahh yes, i remember it well, 3rd wasnt it? just back from Switzerland?

yes 3rd Andy - a really good show as I remember. Needless to say my dad had us to win (as he did last week!)

I though it was just before the Swiss trip though

John R

geordiecolin
06.10.2008, 13:45
I'm not really familiar with this piece at all but i've just listened to Dyke play the last section (Jewels of the crown CD3) and sounds like it's gonna be a good piece to practice/play

Just hope our band don't take it as fast as what Dyke have done lol :eek:

Not much chance of that. (I hope!)

WhatSharp?
06.10.2008, 13:45
Or we could look forward.

Swapsies? :biggrin::biggrin:

eric
07.10.2008, 14:57
Great piece of music. Vinter was so ahead of his time

grandad
07.10.2008, 17:56
Great piece of music. Vinter was so ahead of his time


Yep not bad for a Bassoon Player!!:clap:

hicks
19.10.2008, 13:05
I'm glad that an older test piece has been selected. Gives me a chance to play some of the fantastic music from years ago.
Now all I've got to do is get my triple toungeing up to speed..

MightyForester
19.10.2008, 19:57
How many conductors for the last movement will look at the time it's supposed to take in the score (c. 4:50'ish)?

How many conductors for the last movement will try to take it the 1985/86 Dyke tempo and finish in 4:30'ish?

How many conductors for the last movement will try to take it the 2009 regionals cd tempo and finish in 4:20'ish?

How many conductors for the last movement will go like the 'bat out of hell' and hope the detail comes through!!!!!

:-?;):-?

Bass Trumpet
19.10.2008, 20:05
How many conductors for the last movement will look at the time it's supposed to take in the score (c. 4:50'ish)?

How many conductors for the last movement will try to take it the 1985/86 Dyke tempo and finish in 4:30'ish?

How many conductors for the last movement will try to take it the 2009 regionals cd tempo and finish in 4:20'ish?

How many conductors for the last movement will go like the 'bat out of hell' and hope the detail comes through!!!!!

:-?;):-?

Most of them! I think a lot of it will come down to the sort of adjudicator listening. I think a number of bands will hold out until they know who's in the box before deciding on tempi.

Bryan_sop
01.12.2008, 16:12
Well according to this (http://www.regional-contest.org.uk/london/index.php?page=contest_details) we've got Philip Sparke (I assume the P is for Philip?!)

scotchgirl
02.12.2008, 08:01
I love this piece already! I love Vinter generally though lol!

However, what's going on with the reset score and parts? What a load of tat? In the first quick run through I already spotted 5 or 6 errors on two parts (1st and 2nd bari) and others in the band had dynamics missed off, key signatures missed, missing beats in bars etc etc.....really bad!

Can't wait to see the errata for this one - it'll be aboout 10 pages long!

brassbandmaestro
02.12.2008, 08:59
I love this piece already! I love Vinter generally though lol!

However, what's going on with the reset score and parts? What a load of tat? In the first quick run through I already spotted 5 or 6 errors on two parts (1st and 2nd bari) and others in the band had dynamics missed off, key signatures missed, missing beats in bars etc etc.....really bad!

Can't wait to see the errata for this one - it'll be aboout 10 pages long!

Why not re=wrte the score yourself?:)

Simon Preshom
02.12.2008, 09:08
Why should they? You pay money for score and parts, errors should be minimal

brassbandmaestro
02.12.2008, 09:19
Why should they? You pay money for score and parts, errors should be minimal

I was having a joke Simon!!:D

scotchgirl
02.12.2008, 10:26
I think you could be on to something there lol!

brassbandmaestro
02.12.2008, 10:55
Say what you've done to the publishers and say, oi what about my fee!!

marksmith
02.12.2008, 11:47
Another excellent choice as a qualifier. The last movement will require decent lubrication of the valves!
The last movement was used as the set-piece within the top-section of the old Milton Keynes entertainment contest. It certainly saw a variety of tempos, the fastest spoiling otherwise excellent programmes.
This will definitely test the bands next year.

ian perks
02.12.2008, 14:25
I love Vinter generally though


Yes probably for me and many others there favorite Brass Band test piece composer.
I never get bored of listening to his music:clap:

Moy
05.12.2008, 23:39
Love all Gilbert Vinter music.
Salute to Youth is a great piece.
Am sure you will enjoy it.
Never played horn part but remember well solo cornet and flugel parts - excellent.

JesTperfect!
06.12.2008, 14:32
Do y'know . . .

Honestly, I hate to say it:

Does anyone else find that when they first get a testpiece out and start practicing it, they're not that keen, but then as you go on, you end up really liking it, and driving friends and family mad because you won't stop singing it?

This is the norm for me. I hated Macbeth with a passion right up until the last two days before the Scottish Open last year, then fell in love with it. Same with Isiah 40 and other various pieces.

BUT

I played Salute to Youth at Bugle Band contest in June, and never ever got that luvin' feelin'. I guess I kinda like the last movement, but the rest? Not all that struck to be honest.

So when I find out that it's the testpiece for the areas.....well, I wasn't that over the moon.

All Vinter lovers-please don't hate me! There's just something in this one, and I can't put my pinkie on it, but I just don't like it!

Here's hoping that I do fall in love with it......fingers crossed that it starts to happen in February and not 2 days before the contest, otherwise I shall be having a very miserable few rehearsals!

Red Elvis
06.01.2009, 09:27
Spent an hour on it last night as we had our first proper look at it .....well , I say an hour - we played for about ten minutes , the rest of the time was spent filling in dynamics etc and correcting errors grr!!
Do these firms not have proof readers ?

Ipswich trom
06.01.2009, 10:44
Do y'know . . .

Honestly, I hate to say it:

Does anyone else find that when they first get a testpiece out and start practicing it, they're not that keen, but then as you go on, you end up really liking it, and driving friends and family mad because you won't stop singing it?

This is the norm for me. I hated Macbeth with a passion right up until the last two days before the Scottish Open last year, then fell in love with it. Same with Isiah 40 and other various pieces.

BUT

I played Salute to Youth at Bugle Band contest in June, and never ever got that luvin' feelin'. I guess I kinda like the last movement, but the rest? Not all that struck to be honest.

So when I find out that it's the testpiece for the areas.....well, I wasn't that over the moon.

All Vinter lovers-please don't hate me! There's just something in this one, and I can't put my pinkie on it, but I just don't like it!

Here's hoping that I do fall in love with it......fingers crossed that it starts to happen in February and not 2 days before the contest, otherwise I shall be having a very miserable few rehearsals!

Have to say I agree.

I have pretty much grown to enjoy all the test pieces I've had to play but this one just doesn't do it for me. It's all rather bitty, never going anywhere in my opinion and how the 2nd movement can be "Romance" is beyond me.

agentorange
08.01.2009, 14:54
and how the 2nd movement can be "Romance" is beyond me.


Is it because it's romance from the point of view of a youth rather than from the point of view of someone who's grown to know the true meaning of the word? :rolleyes:

Have to agree though, this one is not one of my favourites. Vinter wrote some superb stuff and (in my humble opinion) some pretty ordinary stuff. This is from the latter.

ian perks
19.01.2009, 17:52
Well having listend to Area CD for 2009,a few times now
This as to be the best piece of them all by a very long way as for the rest
:hammer Saulte To Youth giving the rest of the Area pieces a good smack on the head:clap:

Anno Draconis
19.01.2009, 21:55
Well having listend to Area CD for 2009,a few times now
This as to be the best piece of them all by a very long way as for the rest
:hammer Saulte To Youth giving the rest of the Area pieces a good smack on the head:clap:

Thanks Ian! ;)

Me, Dan, Frank and Graham are having a whip round to buy you Foden's new CD with Prague on it, we think you'll love it. :p

(just kidding - you hope;))

In fairness I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Salute - the sheer exuberance of the last movement is quite infectious, but only if you can nail all the fingering and make it sound easy. The other thing to bear in mind is historical context; imagine how this sounded in 1961 when the state of the art in band testpieces was Le Roi d'Ys and Resurgam - both good, but not exactly forward looking.

ian perks
20.01.2009, 14:10
Thanks Ian! ;)

buy you Foden's new CD with Prague on it, we think you'll love it. :p

(just kidding - you hope;))

In fairness I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Salute - the sheer exuberance of the last movement is quite infectious, but only if you can nail all the fingering and make it sound easy. The other thing to bear in mind is historical context; imagine how this sounded in 1961 when the state of the art in band testpieces was Le Roi d'Ys and Resurgam - both good, but not exactly forward looking.
Andy my mate;
Ive got a recording done by that great band of the mid 60's
C.W.S Manchester playing Salute To Youth.
Its a really great performance then and would still be something for the younger players today to hear to that great band with the likes of
Derrick Garsdie(Principle Cornet),Brian Evans(Soprano),Lyndon Baglin(Solo Euphonium),Gordon Higginbottom(Solo Horn),Ian Bray(Solo Trombone),not forgetting Alex Mortimer(Conductor).
Sadly i was not even born when the band Won the 2 national titles on Force Of Destiny &Belmont Variations but have managed since to get copies of both winning performances phew just sheer awsome playing.
Also having been conducted by a former member of that famous band from both Wins in 1962&1963 at my first senior band i joined in 1977, my debut with them was
NATIONAL FINALS 3RD SECTION 1977;(WALSALL METROPOLITAN BAND-now Staffordshire band)
AND WON,a day i will never for get in my banding days at all.
As for Prauge 5th November spings to mind LOL:hammer

MightyForester
08.02.2009, 20:00
3rd movement, percussion, sleigh bells??
Can't say I've heard any recording that has sleigh bells!!
Anyone want to confirm if this is correct?
It does appear on the stave where no other instrument has been used yet but on my old score it makes no identification as to what it is, but, the new parts say s/bells.

Thanks!;)

Gavin
09.02.2009, 08:59
3rd movement, percussion, sleigh bells??
Can't say I've heard any recording that has sleigh bells!!
Anyone want to confirm if this is correct?
It does appear on the stave where no other instrument has been used yet but on my old score it makes no identification as to what it is, but, the new parts say s/bells.

Thanks!;)

I can confirm that it is jingles (or sleigh bells). There are many discrepancies between the score and part, both new and old. For example;

* The wood block rhythm in the first movement is wrong on the part but correct in the score
* At the end of the last movement (just before the 4/4), the score doesn't indicate that it's snare drum on the bottom space of the stave (the snare drum part then moves back up to the third space of the stave a couple of bars later!)

There are more, but I don't have them in front of me at the moment.

Hope this helps a little

Gavin

JR
11.02.2009, 10:37
In fairness I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Salute - the sheer exuberance of the last movement is quite infectious, but only if you can nail all the fingering and make it sound easy. The other thing to bear in mind is historical context; imagine how this sounded in 1961 when the state of the art in band testpieces was Le Roi d'Ys and Resurgam - both good, but not exactly forward looking.

As far as I'm aware Salute to Youth got a good reception in 1961 at the Areas but must have sounded astoundingly different. Especially in high pitch and without percussion..
And don't forget they were still using old arrangements as late as 1968 (Beethoven 8) as area tests
Actually the CWS Manc recording worth listening to just to note how that style of playing has totally disappeared - excessive vibrato, exaggerated phrasing with lots of rubato, not much staggering of breathing etc - and can you imagine the last movt being taken as slowly as that today?
Alex Mortimer's interpretation of Vinter was generally pretty left field - I remember his Spectrum being very different.

John R

ISBBBb2
11.02.2009, 11:21
You top league boys don't know how lucky you are having Vinters work to play and not the Pentacle piece the 1st section are bashing through!

Red Elvis
11.02.2009, 11:24
I have to say I was a bit agnostic as far as "salute" was concerned on the first couple of playings. Its really growing on me now though.

ian perks
11.02.2009, 20:12
Actually the CWS Manc recording worth listening to just to note how that style of playing has totally disappeared - excessive vibrato, exaggerated phrasing with lots of rubato, not much staggering of breathing etc - and can you imagine the last movt being taken as slowly as that today?
Alex Mortimer's interpretation of Vinter was generally pretty left field - I remember his Spectrum being very different.

John R
Like in a earlier post ive put ive got a record of that performance by CWS.MANCHESTER;
Its different i agree with you but when you think they were one of the top bands of that yera its a good performance and i very much doubt if it would have been betterd by many bands of that time;
With the likes of Garside,Evans, Baglin, Higginbottom.
On key seats not forgetting Ian Bray on Solo trombone & i think Malcom Holmes on Flugel.
Plus plenty of other good players in the band at the time.

ghost
12.02.2009, 17:46
[quote=ian perks;646088]Andy my mate;
Ive got a recording done by that great band of the mid 60's
C.W.S Manchester playing Salute To Youth.
Its a really great performance then and would still be something for the younger players today to hear to that great band with the likes of
Derrick Garsdie(Principle Cornet),Brian Evans(Soprano),Lyndon Baglin(Solo Euphonium),Gordon Higginbottom(Solo Horn),Ian Bray(Solo Trombone),not forgetting Alex Mortimer(Conductor).

-----------------------------------------
Ahh! You are talking my language. I have a huge collection of CWS recordings - the live winning recording of Force of Destiny is as near perfect a performance that I can remember - and what a tempo! These days we are very lucky with instruments having improved so much.

I was lucky enough to study and play under Freddie Roberts in the 1970's. He was band master of Brighouse and Manchester CWS and worked for years with Alex Mortimer. Fred had taught Derek Garside from when he was a young boy. Also, I was lucky enough to sit, aged 12, on the bottom end of the front line when Fred got Derek down to play with us. I was so in awe as he played 3 air varies perfectly during the concert, that I couldn't play a note the whole evening. The width of his sound was breathtaking. Recently, I wrote to Chris Helme who was writing a piece about Derek and told him this story. Derek then called me and he remembered this incident very well - talk about a kid being star struck. That's what banding is all about.

Now, can someone help me? I want to book up for the finals at the RAH later this year. The 4bars rest site says it will be on 10th October whilst the Kapitol Productions says the following week. I want to book the Friday off work. Does anyone know what the date should be for certain?

I have tried to contact Kapitol but with no success. If they want to fill the RAH then perhaps some up front customer service would be a good idea!

If anyone knows the dates for certain, I would be very grateful. The problem is that if someone else books the actual Friday, I won't be able to go!

Many thanks
Greg

brassneck
12.02.2009, 23:00
I've never heard the Manchester Co-op recording but it would be interesting to listen to. I've only found four recordings in my collection ... Ever Ready (with Jim Shepherd as top man), Brighouse, Dyke and Fairey.

stuartw
13.02.2009, 18:01
An errata sheet for Salute to Youth has been issued by Studio Music. Hard copies were sent out to bands in the Yorkshire area today and I imagine the same will be true for other areas. A pdf copy is available for download from the news area of the yorkshire website.

http://www.regional-contest.org.uk/yorkshire/news.php

Cheers

Stuart

Bryan_sop
14.02.2009, 00:12
Not much of an errata! There are at least 3 wrong notes in the Sop part that aren't even mentioned! Who know's what's missing elsewhere?!

impycornet
14.02.2009, 10:11
Several from solo cornet part that aren't there either ...

HBB
14.02.2009, 17:03
Missing the majority of the errors on all the horn parts too - there are wrong rhythms, notes and dynamics everywhere!

jockinafrock
14.02.2009, 22:02
Curious to see how the adjudications will fare if someone is picked up for playing something incorrectly and it wasn't on the errata notification...:rolleyes:

geordiecolin
16.02.2009, 12:52
Eb Bass isn't complete either.....

Will there be an errata errata?!

JR
19.02.2009, 11:17
The errata falls in to the Sybil Fawlty category i.e. it states the bleedin' obvious (at length..)

Plus misses some of the glaring errors on the score e.g. timp one tone out last few bars 2nd movt etc

John R

iancwilx
25.02.2009, 12:32
I've attached two pages of the 1962 Yorks Area "Salute to Youth" contest programme.
The prize money and the cost of band parts is interesting.

- Wilkie

Anno Draconis
25.02.2009, 12:44
I've attached two pages of the 1962 Yorks Area "Salute to Youth" contest programme.
The prize money and the cost of band parts is interesting.

- Wilkie
Very interesting!!

If both had gone up in line with average earnings, the cost of a score and set of parts (1 19 0) would be 68.06, not far off what a testpiece costs now. The prize money (50), on the other hand, would have gone up to 1745.10 :eek:

[Calcualtions from http://www.measuringworth.com/index.html]

Red Elvis
02.03.2009, 09:26
Slight tangent here , but on Saturday night I was arguing a minor point with a fellow band geek about StY . Typing the name of the piece into a search engine in order to prove I was indeed correct I was surprised that the pop-up advert on the page enjoined me to seek out young ladies of questionable morals for the purposes of brief relationships on the physical level ( hope thats clean enough mods ! ) !!:) Not sure what that says about us band types !!

jockinafrock
02.03.2009, 09:41
David Read stood on stage and more or less told those in the audience who hadn't fallen asleep or committed suicide that most of the bands that played that section couldn't read music/observe markings/play correct rhythms...

Not many positives I'm afraid, and certainly no real acknowledgement of the efforts of players and MDs given the hoo ha over errata, or personal triumphs like mastering tricky tripling and doing a damn fine job of solos, etc!
Thanks David, hardly encouraging words... :hammer

Simon_Horn
02.03.2009, 12:55
Not many positives I'm afraid, and certainly no real acknowledgement of the efforts of players and MDs given the hoo ha over errata, or personal triumphs like mastering tricky tripling and doing a damn fine job of solos, etc! [/FONT]
Thanks David, hardly encouraging words... :hammer

Surely just honesty Jockinafrock? I'm sure someone with the credentials of David Read wouldn't be having a rant for the sake of it?? The fact is that some pieces of music lend themselves to a bit of MD interpretation and some don't ....and some adjudicators like a personal touch at time and some don't. Surely this adjudicator has been around long enough for MDs to know what he is looking for and isn't this just essential research for any MD these days in the system we currently have and especially in the area contest!

And as for encouragement, this was the NW championship section full of accomplished players - not struggling lower section town bands that need some words of encouragement. I wasn't there on Sunday but if David Read feels the need to tell championship bands that they didn't get the basics right then I think he's right to do so!

jockinafrock
02.03.2009, 15:09
As you said, you weren't there... And I'm sorry, everyone needs a bit of encouragement irrespective of whether you're bottom of the 4th or top of the championship. ;)
Don't you think Leyland need a bit of encouragement at this present moment in time...? :(

Di B
02.03.2009, 15:50
I don't - well not from the adjudicator.

You play at a top level because you are good. If you werent good you would be replaced. You should also be musically experienced enough to know if your performance was good for your band. That should be your praise. Adjudicators shouldn't need to massage egos as well. The bands were told where they went wrong. Thats all they needed to know.

We put the work in because we want to. We contest because we want to. We know that rogue results happen. We are strong enough to pick ourselves up and carry on. We dont need our backsides wiping by adjudicators!

That said I believe that positive criticism should be used in 4th and 3rd section because of the amount of inexperience and children there.

Condolences to leyland but I am sure their players will just lick their wounds and come back stronger like the top section band they are.
Congrats to Fodens faireys pemberton and wire for the excellent results.

scotchgirl
06.03.2009, 10:25
I don't - well not from the adjudicator.

You play at a top level because you are good. If you werent good you would be replaced. You should also be musically experienced enough to know if your performance was good for your band. That should be your praise. Adjudicators shouldn't need to massage egos as well. The bands were told where they went wrong. Thats all they needed to know.

We put the work in because we want to. We contest because we want to. We know that rogue results happen. We are strong enough to pick ourselves up and carry on. We dont need our backsides wiping by adjudicators!

That said I believe that positive criticism should be used in 4th and 3rd section because of the amount of inexperience and children there.

Condolences to leyland but I am sure their players will just lick their wounds and come back stronger like the top section band they are.
Congrats to Fodens faireys pemberton and wire for the excellent results.

The first point about players being replaced if they weren't good enough...that isn't true in every band at the top section. Some bands enjoy and build on having a core of players, regardless of their technical or musical ability. When you are a group of friends as well as banders, it isn't acceptable, in some bands, to get rid of people and replace them with better players. Loyalty.....its an issue in Championship banding...glory chasing at the expense of friends is all too common I feel.

I do agree about ego massaging from adjudicators though...I don't do contests for adjudicators to come on and tell me how good I was, when I should already know from experience how well or not I've played....ultimately it all comes down to the result. There are always rogue results in contests...every band has had a day when they've played a blinder and came nowhere...equally every band has come off the stage knowing they were **** and then getting a good result. Its all swings and roundabouts.

Adjudicators are there to tell it how it is...they're there to JUDGE the bands on their performances, and if they don't think any band tackled a piece particularly well, then they are entitled to say that....at the top level bands should expect nothing more.

bassbone
06.03.2009, 13:31
The first point about players being replaced if they weren't good enough...that isn't true in every band at the top section. Some bands enjoy and build on having a core of players, regardless of their technical or musical ability. When you are a group of friends as well as banders, it isn't acceptable, in some bands, to get rid of people and replace them with better players. Loyalty.....its an issue in Championship banding...glory chasing at the expense of friends is all too common I feel.

I do agree about ego massaging from adjudicators though...I don't do contests for adjudicators to come on and tell me how good I was, when I should already know from experience how well or not I've played....ultimately it all comes down to the result. There are always rogue results in contests...every band has had a day when they've played a blinder and came nowhere...equally every band has come off the stage knowing they were **** and then getting a good result. Its all swings and roundabouts.

Adjudicators are there to tell it how it is...they're there to JUDGE the bands on their performances, and if they don't think any band tackled a piece particularly well, then they are entitled to say that....at the top level bands should expect nothing more.
Nail. Head. Great post

MoominDave
17.03.2009, 10:43
Here's a weird erratum... We're playing off the old edition, for reference.

Bass trombone part, 2nd movement, bar 43 - the bass trombone is in the middle of several bars of unison with the basses, but this one bar is a tone higher than the tubas. An obvious mistake, no? A few seconds' peering at the harmony in the score reveals that the tubas have the right notes, and so the bass trombone should go done a tone from what is written for that one bar.

So far so simple... However! Now the last note of the bar is a low C, not a D. The old G trombone has a bottom note of Db, so wouldn't have been able to play this (the whole passage sits just above the lower limit of the G trombone range, as printed).

So what's going on here? Did people always play that bar a tone out? Did players spot the mistake, and jump up an octave on the last note? Did they maybe fake the low C by lipping down?

And it also raises another interesting question - if we accept that C, do we accept the validity of moving the bass trombone down an octave in a couple of other places where the part jumps up from bass octave to tenor octave mid-figure in order to avoid a low C? [e.g. the last two notes of the opening figure]

Red Elvis
17.03.2009, 10:56
Good points MoominDave .
Not being a bass trom player ( I have been known to abuse a tenor in my time ) when did the old G trom fade from use and the plugged version come into use ? would top-level bands have been using plugged basses by the sixties ?

MoominDave
17.03.2009, 10:58
In bands - not until the late 60s / early 70s, as I understand it. In 1962, I don't think anyone in bands was using a Bb/F bass instrument. Also, Gilbert Vinter would have been scoring in a 'standard practice' kind of way - he wouldn't have deliberately written notes that a lot of players wouldn't have, would he? But then I wasn't even thought of for another 17 years after that, so I'm just passing on second-hand info...

PeterBale
17.03.2009, 23:16
In bands - not until the late 60s / early 70s, as I understand it. In 1962, I don't think anyone in bands was using a Bb/F bass instrument.

As brass bands were still using high pitch instruments at that stage, I would agree that it's unlikely that any Bb/Fs were in use

Brian Bowen
18.03.2009, 15:12
The ISB began using a Bb/F bass trombone in the early 1960s. Can't be sure of the date, but it was certainly before 1964 and was played (by Brian Cooper) on the ISB's LP that included the first recording of "The Kingdom Triumphant".

MoominDave
18.03.2009, 16:30
Very interesting though the question of when people started using bass trombones other than straight Gs is [fascinating observation, Brian, btw - did the ISB lead the way, or had they seen it done by other bands?], it doesn't bear on what Vinter would have been scoring for, as many (I suspect a large majority) of players were still using straight Gs in 1962. By way of comparison, euphoniums have had 4th valves since the late 19th century, but people have only recently started writing non-optional notes below low F# for them. Writing notes that you know are not playable by many of the intended players isn't sensible...

My personal suspicion is that Vinter himself made this mistake in transposition while doing his scoring - it made the part appear as if it was in range when it wasn't, and this was then not spotted by the proofreaders.

Ali.Syme
22.03.2009, 16:46
Epic piece especially the last movement. Also there are a lot of ways to interpret the parts themselves. For example, the last movement can be played quite broadly, with more of a punch or with a bit of a bounce. No emphasis on one over the other ruins the piece it just makes it move differently.

The bass trombone does more with the trombones in terms of tune and motif than it does securing the bass lines. A good mix and valuable learning piece for any bone player :-)