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blasterbates
28.09.2008, 19:52
Now this is a strange one and I'm sorry I am not going to bring out the usual vague trash we see on this site (e.g. let's spend weeks guessing who he's talking about etc...).

National Finals 4th Section this weekend - Skelmanthorpe B played a pretty decent show - not the best start but it got much better and it was a good show overall. They deserved a good ovation at the end especially as many of the players are youngsters whom we should be encouraging. I was one of those people who cheered at the end.

Whilst disappointed with their overall placing (please note this is not the point of this thread), the most bizarre comment on the remarks came from adjudicator Chris Wormald. which was about the audience being very supportive at the end of the performance, however the band's performance did not merit this ovation.

I am sorry, but are the adjudicatiors not supposed to be judging the music from the stage and nothing else?

I have played in many contests where "rent-a-crowd" have turned up and cheered performances of a much lower standard than that of Skelmanthorpe B this weekend but I always thought it didn't matter because the adjudicators were much too professional to take notice of the response at the end of 12 or 15 minutes playing - they should already have formed an opinion before the end of the last note.

I thought it most bizzare and was going to ask the rest of you if you had ever had an adjudicator comment on the (irrelevant) response from the audience at a contest you have played at, however my thunder has been stolen by members of Uppermill Band, who played in the same section this weekend and came in the prizes and also had a pretty similar comment on their remarks.

Did anyone else get a similar comment - and do you think it is relevant?

Hells Bones
28.09.2008, 20:17
You'd hope the adjudicators don't take audience reaction into account considering I've seen a few where the audience are cheering before the band has even finished playing!

Col
28.09.2008, 20:19
This seems bang out of order perhaps the adjudicator should concentrate on the music rather than the audience. At a contest like the Nationals the level of travelling support will vary according to distance and I always think that younger aged bands generally have more support also. Perhaps the comments should be refered back to the Adjudicators association for their opinions as to the professionalism of such comments.

dyl
28.09.2008, 21:09
Not the first time I've heard of the same adjudicator say that..........

Blagger
28.09.2008, 21:14
Agree that that's totally out of order - a comment like that tells you nothing and could only spoil some of the members of that bands' day. Add to that their young age (ok - Wormald didnt know what band he was commenting on) and I think its shameful.
For the record - Wormald comments for us were noticeably less encouraging than Dick Evans' - and we won. My guess is that he "marked down" most bands - so dont feel too bad:wink:

marchris6047
29.09.2008, 00:06
Yes, we had comments on the amount of cheering we got.
Not quite sure what thats got to do with him. He was adjudicating a band contest not if the level of cheering were appropriate to conclude any of the performances.
Like Lostock Hall our comments were also less encouraging than Richard's

Banding ehh ;0)

euphalogy
29.09.2008, 15:09
It is a shame when people "paid" to an important job get side tracked by the smoke and mirrors of the audience present. Did anybody receive any comments such as " this one should have enjoyed rapturous applause"................... idiotic beyond belief.
I sat through most of section 4 and 3 and at times witnessed a very very sparce audience indeed.
Any audience reaction is purely a recognition of the bands efforts, be it from the impartial like myself, or the dedicated and tireless parents and family who give their time, money and effort to ensure that this great movement of ours continues to thrive, and to celebrate in whatever way they deem appropriate, the efforts of their friends and family.
Dick Evans, as always, was professional in his summing up at the end, offered good sound advice to everyone present, and by the writings here, gave encouragement and dirction in his adjudication.
There are not too many like Mr Evans and David Read, who never forget where they started, and frequently revisit the grass roots of brass bands.
Temper that with the "up and coming" must make a name for myself pretenders and we have a toxic mix to contend with.
To everybody who competed, well done to you all, it gave me a marvellous days entertainment, i never heard a "dodgy" band all day, and you were all a great credit.

Aurora771
30.09.2008, 01:09
Dick Evans, as always, was professional in his summing up at the end, offered good sound advice to everyone present, and by the writings here, gave encouragement and dirction in his adjudication.

Thank goodness he said it in his speech because he certainly wasn't constructive or encouraging in our bands adjudication. Mainly, that was wrong, that was wrong. It would be interesting to see how he changed his comments with a band who played later in the day.

Anyway, back on point. Adjudicators shouldn't be influenced by the audience, and the fact that he mentioned it in the crit is a little worrying.

Also, the audience clapping before the band is finished.. I find it so annoying. It also distracts from the finally note which may be going in or out a tune.. which I feel the adjudicators should hear.

Mr Guinness
30.09.2008, 13:09
I vote for replacing the adjudicators with a clapometer! And maybe a Hughie Green lookalike.

agentorange
30.09.2008, 13:28
Mr Wormald strikes again.

I seem to remember complaints about his remarks at this years senior cup. (Ok, i definately remember - I was one of the complainants!).

Just to sidetrack slightly, I remember an adjudicator (not Mr Wormald this time though) commenting that I looked like I needed to relax more. Absolutely no mention of what he actually heard. Insane.

Hells Bones
30.09.2008, 15:28
Mr Wormald strikes again.

I seem to remember complaints about his remarks at this years senior cup. (Ok, i definately remember - I was one of the complainants!).

Just to sidetrack slightly, I remember an adjudicator (not Mr Wormald this time though) commenting that I looked like I needed to relax more. Absolutely no mention of what he actually heard. Insane.

This was, I trust, an open adjudication, yes? ;)

brasscrest
30.09.2008, 15:50
Coming from a completely neutral perspective, I'm not sure that this comment is all that bad. It seems to me that adjudicator is trying to say that he did NOT take notice of the ovation in scoring the band - that he heard the ovation and thought that it was excessive for the performance that he heard. This could just be an attempt to explain a low mark on what seemed like a popular performance to the audience.

robcav
01.10.2008, 00:59
Coming from a completely neutral perspective, I'm not sure that this comment is all that bad. It seems to me that adjudicator is trying to say that he did NOT take notice of the ovation in scoring the band - that he heard the ovation and thought that it was excessive for the performance that he heard. This could just be an attempt to explain a low mark on what seemed like a popular performance to the audience.

I have to ask why any adjudicator worth his salt, credibility or integrity would care two hoots about the audience's reaction or, more to the point why on Earth he would feel the need to justify his comments on the performance in relation to an audience's reaction in his adjudication remarks.

As I am apt to comment to some of my students 'if you have nothing valuable or constuctive to say, say nothing. It's the empty bottles that make the most noise'.

I know that the issue of the style and content of adjudicators' remarks has been debated before but I trust that the body which oversees the 'quality control' of adjudications will adjudicate against the practice of commenting on anything other than the musical performance before them in a constructively critical way especially, but of course not exclusively, in the 4th section. What possible benefit can be gained by making such a critical appraisal of the people who have paid good money to support their band and the movement (and believe me they were annoyed). Kill the support and you kill the movement.

obi-wan johnny
01.10.2008, 13:56
Whatever the reason for enthusiastic applause,:clap: it shouldn't be complained about. How many times have we sat and played - in contests! - to three men and a dog, only to be applauded by the conductor and the dog :clap: at the end of the piece? We complain about that - let's not complain about too much encouragement from the audience.:clap:

Unless that is it's in a "Jerry Springer" type of fashion! ;)

YorkshireBloke
02.10.2008, 08:14
What possible benefit can be gained by making such a critical appraisal of the people who have paid good money to support their band and the movement (and believe me they were annoyed). Kill the support and you kill the movement.

Well said rob.

I also read what was written, and to say that the players didn't deserve it is an insult to everyone concerned. Next time Mr Adjudicator, just stick to commenting on the playing please. We will decide how much we want to cheer and encourage, thank you very much.

Masterblaster jnr
02.10.2008, 17:41
and Mr Wormald is a school teacher is he not. And surely he has the nouse to realise there will be a large proportion of kids in the 4th section, so saying what he did, the way he did is just plain stupid. Also, i feel there would have been a proportion of errors down to nerves, everyone get's nervous. I'm sure he wouldn't like the prospect of a solo knowing that if he makes an error, his judge will 'rip his head off'.

Completely unnecessary

BbBill
02.10.2008, 20:00
He's just doing this as there hasnt been many press releases in 4br about what he's doing in work this week.....!!

Masterblaster jnr
02.10.2008, 23:45
http://www.4barsrest.com/articles/2008/art899.asp

Well 4br have mentioned Skelmanthorpe B's audience as well. What is the obsession?!!!!!

grausue
03.10.2008, 09:17
It's one of those daft "top of the head" comments that makes no sense. The adjudicator doesn't know what the audience is applauding; it may not be the standard of the music. It could be anything - overwhelming pride in a friend's work, an eight year old's first contest or just plain recognition of hard work and overcoming difficulties to get to Harrogate. The pleasure of the audience isn't within the dictat of the adjudicator, thank goodness, otherwise we'd only be allowed to applaud "perfect renditions". When you're in a little box, it must be easy to become a bit too introspective and imagine that everyone on the outside is assessing in the same way as you are.

I wasn't there, but I know that all the bands deserved their applause. And here's some more :clap: :clap::clap:

Thirteen Ball
03.10.2008, 15:18
Whatever the reason for enthusiastic applause,:clap: it shouldn't be complained about. How many times have we sat and played - in contests! - to three men and a dog, only to be applauded by the conductor and the dog :clap: at the end of the piece? We complain about that - let's not complain about too much encouragement from the audience.:clap:

Unless that is it's in a "Jerry Springer" type of fashion! ;)

I certainly agree with this. I don't think applause, (or a lack of it) genuinely affects the result of contests as our current crop of adjudicators will have heard it all before.

However when it's the band who start the clapping and cheering - as Black Dyke have previous form for doing at Yorkshire areas, then I take issue with it.

By all means be proud in your performance, you're one of (probably) the top two bands out there. But don't go nuts about yourselves or what's the point in having an audience? Might as well play in the bandroom and all cheer each other. There really is no need.

agentorange
03.10.2008, 17:06
[quote=Thirteen Ball;627752]
However when it's the band who start the clapping and cheering, then I take issue with it.


Sorry Andi, I have to take exception with you there.

As you know, I made my Albert Hall debut last year and had one or two little solos to play. Thankfully, I just about got through them unscathed. At the end of the performance Jim (Davies, our MD at the time) stood up each soloist in turn. As I stood up, the whole of the band cheered and clapped - a very, very humbling experience and a moment i'll cherish until my dying breath. We didn't win, we weren't even in the prizes, but i was one of the proudest players in the hall that day, just because my collegues clapped and cheered my performance. I'd hate that to be taken away and other people denied the pleasure i gained from the experience, just because someone thinks its wrong for bandmen (and women) to acknowlege each others performance.

Thirteen Ball
03.10.2008, 17:54
[quote=Thirteen Ball;627752]
However when it's the band who start the clapping and cheering, then I take issue with it.


Sorry Andi, I have to take exception with you there.

As you know, I made my Albert Hall debut last year and had one or two little solos to play. Thankfully, I just about got through them unscathed. At the end of the performance Jim (Davies, our MD at the time) stood up each soloist in turn. As I stood up, the whole of the band cheered and clapped - a very, very humbling experience and a moment i'll cherish until my dying breath. We didn't win, we weren't even in the prizes, but i was one of the proudest players in the hall that day, just because my collegues clapped and cheered my performance. I'd hate that to be taken away and other people denied the pleasure i gained from the experience, just because someone thinks its wrong for bandmen (and women) to acknowlege each others performance.

Sorry Neil, I didn't in any way intend to detract from that and I certainly didn't mean my post to come accross in that way. I was listening to you at the time and you certainly deserved every last decibel of applause that reached your ears - as did every other player for EYMS that day!

However the audience reaction to your performance was entirely their own - and they quite rightly loved it. And here is the point - it wasn't in any way engineered by the band starting the applause and cheers two bars before the end of the piece - as I have previously encountered.

If the conductor stands a solist up and the band applauds, that's different - and fully justified, as they are applauding the player on a fine performance - and it would be churlish not to do so.

In my prior example it struck me the band were applauding themselves in order to solicit more reaction from the audience - which is surely not cricket.

In no way intended as a detrimental remark to your achievement.