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Di
30.09.2007, 11:15
Official thread for the Regionals 2008 Third section test piece, The Dark Side of the Moon, Paul Lovatt-Cooper. :)

MRSH
30.09.2007, 16:00
Not ordered our copy yet.

Does anybody know the percussion requirements, please?

Cheers

HUDDSBASSBONE
30.09.2007, 16:21
Whats the story with this piece? Whats it about?

Mesmerist
30.09.2007, 16:37
Whats the story with this piece? Whats it about?

I think its about what the moon looks like on the side we can`t see and the composer thinks it will be "desolate "and "barren" and "rugged". Having heard the CD I think it sounds a bit russian so perhaps they started a base camp up there and sing Volga Boat song after drinking copious amounts of moon-vodka. I love it and we are trying it out tomorrow night. (The music not moon-vodka obviously:biggrin: )

TUBAWAY ARMY
30.09.2007, 17:54
And there was me expecting 'Breathe, Time, Great Gig In The Sky and Money'

LOL

Anno Draconis
30.09.2007, 17:54
I've just heard this on the CD and it sounds awesome - by the sound of it, chops of steel are required for the last bit. Almost makes me disappointed that we've been promoted!

Will the Sec
30.09.2007, 17:56
Wonder what Pink Floyd think about it?

Mesmerist
30.09.2007, 17:58
Wonder what Pink Floyd think about it?

What section are they in then?

Mesmerist
30.09.2007, 18:05
Not ordered our copy yet.

Does anybody know the percussion requirements, please?

Cheers

The ability to tell bad jokes and drink a great deal of alchohol seems to be a main qualities needed. Oh plus a big white van for all those bits and bobs.:)

MRSH
30.09.2007, 18:09
The ability to tell bad jokes and drink a great deal of alcohol seems to be a main qualities needed. Oh plus a big white van for all those bits and bobs.:):clap: HaHaHaHa - love it.

All our percussionist is missing is the big white van :(

Oh, and a colleague or two, if what I've heard about this piece is correct!! :eek:

Mesmerist
30.09.2007, 18:36
I've just heard this on the CD and it sounds awesome - by the sound of it, chops of steel are required for the last bit. Almost makes me disappointed that we've been promoted!

Do I detect a whiff of smugness in the air?

Only joking. Congratulations and enjoy being a champion

Anno Draconis
30.09.2007, 19:07
Do I detect a whiff of smugness in the air?

Only joking. Congratulations and enjoy being a champion

More than a whiff, frankly (a stench, maybe?), but thanks anyway!

I've had a good listen to the Regionals CD this afternoon, and Dark Side is definitely my favourite of the 5 pieces at the moment. Great that the 3rd section's got a modern piece again, after 3 years of 50s/60s nostalgia.

WhatSharp?
30.09.2007, 20:26
More than a whiff, frankly (a stench, maybe?), but thanks anyway!

I've had a good listen to the Regionals CD this afternoon, and Dark Side is definitely my favourite of the 5 pieces at the moment. Great that the 3rd section's got a modern piece again, after 3 years of 50s/60s nostalgia.

Agreed with this. I heard ( my Son did too ) and we both thought "wow what a crackin piece". Sadly I'm not in the third section.. :( .. dissappointed with the 2nd section piece but thats another topic.

:clap: to the selectors for this one.

WorldofBrass.com
30.09.2007, 21:29
Whats the story with this piece? Whats it about?

Follow this link to read the composer's notes which are found in the score; http://www.worldofbrass.eu/acatalog/29764.html

ekimmort
30.09.2007, 23:47
Does anyone know how many percussionists are required?

HBB
30.09.2007, 23:58
Anyone notice the resemblence to Batman all the way through?!

Anno Draconis
01.10.2007, 00:03
Anyone notice the resemblence to Batman all the way through?!
Dark Knight of the Moon?;)

NAS
01.10.2007, 00:09
I heard it at Preston when Royal Buckley played it and it sounds a cracking piece!

madandcrazytromboneguy
01.10.2007, 02:18
Anybody know what this guys composed or arranged before?, I've never heard of him!

Mesmerist
01.10.2007, 10:14
Does anyone know how many percussionists are required?

There is a timpani part and a percussion part but not being a percussionist I guess 3 people is enough? doesn`t look like they have masses to do but there is a glock solo and another bit where the glock features with just the muted cornets. Its not too technical for anyone, nice keys, in 6/8 or 4/4 but there are little solos for nearly everyone including 2nd man on cornet and 2nd euph so everyone should enjoy playing this. Its going to be the bands with the overall best quality of sound (and confidence) that are the winners i think. Good choice.

WorldofBrass.com
01.10.2007, 12:44
Anybody know what this guys composed or arranged before?, I've never heard of him!

Where have you been for the last six months? ;-)

Paul Lovatt-Cooper is one of the percussionists in Black Dyke Band and their 'young composer in residence'. His day job is Head of Music at Wardle High School in Rochdale.

His most well-known piece to date is Where Eagles Sing (http://www.worldofbrass.eu/acatalog/29699.html) which has been played by countless bands around the world since Black Dyke gave the first performance at the 2006 Great Northern Brass Arts Festival.
Horizons (http://www.worldofbrass.eu/acatalog/29702.html) is proving popular after being featured by Brass Band Willebroek in the gala concert of the 2007 European Brass Band Championships and his tenor horn solo An Untold Story (http://www.worldofbrass.eu/acatalog/29751.html) was included by Owen Farr on his recently released solo CD.

PeterBale
02.10.2007, 00:40
Where have you been for the last six months? ;-)

Paul Lovatt-Cooper is one of the percussionists in Black Dyke Band and their 'young composer in residence'. His day job is Head of Music at Wardle High School in Rochdale.

His most well-known piece to date is Where Eagles Sing (http://www.worldofbrass.eu/acatalog/29699.html) which has been played by countless bands around the world since Black Dyke gave the first performance at the 2006 Great Northern Brass Arts Festival.
Horizons (http://www.worldofbrass.eu/acatalog/29702.html) is proving popular after being featured by Brass Band Willebroek in the gala concert of the 2007 European Brass Band Championships and his tenor horn solo An Untold Story (http://www.worldofbrass.eu/acatalog/29751.html) was included by Owen Farr on his recently released solo CD.

Not forgetting the trombone solo written for and recorded by Brett Baker, "Earth's Fury".

2nd man down
02.10.2007, 08:32
Heard the piece for the first time last night. Sounds good, not ridiculously technically difficult but still plenty for bands to trip over. A big fat sound is needed by any band wishing to win.

Mesmerist
02.10.2007, 09:22
We ran it last night straight through no problems then did it again at end of night just for fun. Its lovely and again no one struggled but then we have been rehearsing Force of Destiny for a concert at christmas which is quite scary. Glad we havn`t got James cook though that sounds a tad difficult.

The Eggman
02.10.2007, 18:30
Is it as good as Floyd's D.S.O.T.M. ?
HA HA HA
No chance of that,

ploughboy
03.10.2007, 10:20
I can confirm that you'll need 3 percussionists, and a glock player with steady hands for the really quiet stuff - All sounds very exciting to me - can't wait for January. Also - I'm a bit concerned with all the Coin scaping across Gong/Cymbal stuff, My Cymbals are blooming expensive to playing those sort of games, not to mention the Gong!!!! I wonder if Mr Payne will feel the same about his gear being played this way too, I know it creates the required effect, i'll just have to keep an eye on Ebay for an Ageing cymbal!!

All in all, Sounds like it's gonna be fun, Dynamics and tuning the key (I hate when people say we played it through, so therefore it can't be hard?!) And like Crawford said, a fair big sound and heaps of stamina at the end!! Bring it on!

'Ave it!

jonmoss
03.10.2007, 13:24
Having premiered this piece with Royal Buckley at the Preston contest earlier this year, conducted by the composer, I can assure you that abuse of percussion is not required to play this piece effectively. We also performed 'Dark Side' at the Buxton contest and all percussion was provided by Mr Payne on the day, and I'm sure he didn't mind us (gently) scraping his tam tam !! The cymbal simply needs to be upturned on a timp and played with soft sticks.;)

This is an amazing piece to play and all of the Royal Buckley players felt privileged and honoured to perform it under Paul's brilliant guidance. I can't wait to play it again in Swansea, and can be sure that all 3rd section bands will look forward to rehearsing and performing it.

ekimmort
03.10.2007, 17:07
I guess all that 3rd sections bands require is the luxury of 3 percussionists!

Veri
03.10.2007, 17:33
I've listened to it 6 times this afternoon, and really like it - was anyone else reminded of Gordon Langford's Facets of Glass by it?

dalizzie
03.10.2007, 18:59
What a brilliant piece definitely the best track on the CD both playing wise and composition wise.
Paul Lovatt-Cooper should be very proud of himself!
Brass writing at it's best, very descriptive and well scored, wish my band was in the 3rd section!
Dyke definitely "pulled out all the stops" when recording it.

Deano
03.10.2007, 19:12
I was at the world premiere performance by Black Dyke in Cardiff back in January, I thought it was an excellent piece and approached Paul Lovatt Cooper in Swansea to see when it would be put on general release. It all ties in now with what he said, Dyke to record it in the spring then it was going to the publishers for an autumn release.

I can't wait to start work on it in readiness for the areas.

JoeDrumTech
03.10.2007, 23:26
I wish we hadnt been promoted this year! out of all the test pieces for the regionals, for me this is by far the best piece out of all of them!
so thumbs up to "coop"!


Also - I'm a bit concerned with all the Coin scaping across Gong/Cymbal stuff, My Cymbals are blooming expensive to playing those sort of games, not to mention the Gong!!!! I wonder if Mr Payne will feel the same about his gear being played this way too, I know it creates the required effect, i'll just have to keep an eye on Ebay for an Ageing cymbal!!

to be honest gary, i think by the time Ray Payne has done all the contests he'll be able to replace all the cymbals hes got with the money he gets paid! not to mention probably replace all the drum heads on all the timps, toms, snare drums etc. he has...
im sure he wont mind at all!

still gutted im not gonna be able to play this piece! sounds awsome!

Forest Gump
05.10.2007, 22:22
The best new test piece in year's, the more you listen to it the better it gets, worth the cost of the c.d on it's own.

madandcrazytromboneguy
06.10.2007, 02:38
I aint played it yet but I've had a good look through my part (solo trombone) and theres nowt difficult in it, unless its deceptive lol

I'll give a more detailed view when we go through it in rehearsal, but from a personal point of view, I aint able to be too excited about playing my part!

DMBabe
19.10.2007, 18:07
Haven't heard it yet myself but our seccy has threatened us with a "sit down and Listen" after next band! Yikes!

A mate of mine said in order to recreate it you should go to your local cd section of the library, borrow all John William's Sci-fi back catalogue and play john Myles "Music" over the top! Sounds mad as cheese!!!:clap:

Daisy Duck
21.10.2007, 10:29
This is a great piece - wish I was in a 3rd section band! Very cinematic.

midlandbass
21.10.2007, 11:51
Warning!! It may sound great on CD but it is the worst bass part I have ever played. Very dull. Not looking forward to hammering this one to death at all. Sure as a piece to perform it does sound good and you can sense the atmosphere throughout but playing it doesnt unfortunately inspire you on the bass line.

Floral dance is better - oops better not go there!!

Pythagoras
21.10.2007, 23:03
Warning!! It may sound great on CD but it is the worst bass part I have ever played. Very dull. Not looking forward to hammering this one to death at all. Sure as a piece to perform it does sound good and you can sense the atmosphere throughout but playing it doesnt unfortunately inspire you on the bass line.

Floral dance is better - oops better not go there!!

Played through it for the first time tonight at band. A very different bass part to anything I've played before in a contest. No fast runs or anything like that, and a lot of C's all the way through (on BBb), but some tricky rhythms and counting, that are going to be quite a challenge. Looking forward to getting into it.

DMBabe
21.10.2007, 23:31
This is a great piece - wish I was in a 3rd section band! Very cinematic.
That 'll be the obvious John Williams influence then!!!;)

madandcrazytromboneguy
21.10.2007, 23:49
we still aint gone through it

the 1 rehearsal i miss coz im ill and its the only rehearsal where they go through the damn thing

we are playing a different piece for the leicester contest and we've got a concert coming up in early nov. so the band have to much to work on already so i'm not likely to go through the piece for about another 3 or 4 weeks :(

whats all the opinions of all the 3rd section trombone players, do you like the trom. parts?

Mesmerist
22.10.2007, 08:50
I agree that it isn`t the most technical of pieces but it is going to be quality of sound, tuning and control of volume and power that count. It could well turn out to be one of those pieces that get harder the more a band really begin to work on it.

roryt
25.10.2007, 14:24
I have a friend who is solo trombone in a 3rd section band. They ae (obviously) playing this piece for the area and there is a pretty serious problem with the part.

He plays a Straight King 3B (no trigger) and there is a gliss from C to Db... whats he supposed to do? It is actually written on the part trig+3rd - trig+2nd. I can't believe he'll be the only person in this position. It seems ridiculous that that would be written!

Anyone have any ideas?

ploughboy
25.10.2007, 15:26
our solo trom has taken a trigger trom of the bandroom shelf to get to grips with that bar - Hardly the biggest problem in the world (do it with just two troms?). Clive - i should hope you're not needing to practice the area piece yet!! We'll out it on the stand in Jan, and probably not before. It doesn't look tricky at first glance. I think there will be lots of tuning issues at ppp, and fff (and probably inbetween!). I think some of the cross rythmn's will take some getting to grips with, and It'll test the MD's descriptive abilities too! Looking forward to it, oh, and it sounds from the Cd like a big sound and heaps of stamina are required too!

Baritonedeaf
30.10.2007, 19:04
Does anyone know how many percussionists are required?

Percussion is:

Timp part

and two additional percussion players - Snare, cymbal etc. and Glock part with other bits and bobs.

DMBabe
02.11.2007, 02:00
Just heard it for the first time a couple of days ago and OH MY GOD! I'm almost glad we got relegated! It's fab! Nothing like the preview spiel by the composer, which gave the impression of utter misery! Roll on the regionals!:clap: (although him indoors is a bit freaked out being a percussionist and all).

Al
03.11.2007, 18:08
As a bass, my first impression is that this piece is utter tedium. Maybe as the weeks go I will start to hear other parts and enjoy listening to the piece but it is going to be very difficult to muster up any enthusiasm especially for 3 or 4+ rehearsals a week leading up to the contest.

I really do feel like dropping out now :(

Tuba Dave
03.11.2007, 19:49
As a bass, my first impression is that this piece is utter tedium. Maybe as the weeks go I will start to hear other parts and enjoy listening to the piece but it is going to be very difficult to muster up any enthusiasm especially for 3 or 4+ rehearsals a week leading up to the contest.

I really do feel like dropping out now :(

i couldn't agree more. don't get me wrong its a nice piece to listen to, but im not looking forward to rehersing it. i even said to a fellow bass player the other week that we may as well take a holiday untill the week before!!! ;)

DMBabe
03.11.2007, 23:42
Well I'm relieved to hear there are so many 3rd section bass players out there who can play long sustained notes consistently in tune, at all the correct dynamics, with no wobbling or intonation problems or taking minum long breaths inbetween all at the same time!

If that's the case you can all holiday till mid february!!! ;)

madandcrazytromboneguy
04.11.2007, 01:22
hiya Garry

good to hear from you about the piece, hope alls going well at Emley

the band only did a run through in that rehearsal i missed, ive not been in a band where its rehearsed it properly before jan 1st, but Hudds are 1 bad result away from relegation to 4th section, and i think that Hudds are better than 4th section, they just need to tighten up a bit, so maybe the band will mix it in, in dec. with the xmas pieces, i don't know right now

best of luck with it when you get started on it and im sure i'll see you about in st.G's at some point :)

Al
04.11.2007, 21:09
Well I'm relieved to hear there are so many 3rd section bass players out there who can play long sustained notes consistently in tune, at all the correct dynamics, with no wobbling or intonation problems or taking minum long breaths inbetween all at the same time!

If that's the case you can all holiday till mid february!!! ;)

Well, yes I know what you mean. But what sort of training and practice is all that going to entail? I doubt there will be many basses who will be able to play the tied notes as written anyway, and what is the point of learning circular breathing? The hardest job seems to be marking out where the staggered breathing breathing between the basses will be. We'll see about all that nearer the time. (note to self - must give up smoking)

We're just one average result (let alone a bad result) from relegation. So I feel - why bother going? We may as well pick up the average points for not competing.

The only reason to go to the Areas for me is to sit and listen to all the 1st Section Bands playing James Cook Circumnavigator. Now that is a piece of good music!

Pythagoras
04.11.2007, 21:51
Well, yes I know what you mean. But what sort of training and practice is all that going to entail? I doubt there will be many basses who will be able to play the tied notes as written anyway, and what is the point of learning circular breathing? The hardest job seems to be marking out where the staggered breathing breathing between the basses will be. We'll see about all that nearer the time. (note to self - must give up smoking)

We're just one average result (let alone a bad result) from relegation. So I feel - why bother going? We may as well pick up the average points for not competing.

The only reason to go to the Areas for me is to sit and listen to all the 1st Section Bands playing James Cook Circumnavigator. Now that is a piece of good music!

You wouldn't get average, you'd get bottom plus 1. Only get average if your a new band or promoted or relegated.

ekimmort
04.11.2007, 22:23
We're just one average result (let alone a bad result) from relegation. So I feel - why bother going? We may as well pick up the average points for not competing.


I dont think you get average points for not competing. I think you will find you are placed after all the competing bands. :(

DMBabe
04.11.2007, 23:14
We're just one average result (let alone a bad result) from relegation. So I feel - why bother going? We may as well pick up the average points for not competing.


That's what bugs me about the system! The reason my band is in the 3rd section is because one band decided it would not attend the regionals for some reason unknown to the rest of us, instead just taking the points, knowing that because they were a newly promoted band they'd be safe which let them stay up and us and another band go down. I think that if you don't go you should get bottom points. After all, it costs enough to attend and everyone spends a huge amount of time rehearsing so that shouldn't go unrewarded. We've all had to play pieces that, given the choice we'd rather hack off our own legs with a rusty nailfile, but that's banding for you..... have to take the (very) rough with the smooth!!!

sugarandspice
04.11.2007, 23:20
re read above - If you don't go you get BOTTOM marks PLUS one!

DMBabe
05.11.2007, 00:29
re read above - If you don't go you get BOTTOM marks PLUS one!

And like I said before..... newly promoted band! Means they'll be near bottom of the table next year but got a one year reprieve.:confused:

Pythagoras
05.11.2007, 06:42
And like I said before..... newly promoted band! Means they'll be near bottom of the table next year but got a one year reprieve.:confused:

Still get a bottom plus one for the year they didn't compete, just average results for the 2 previous years when in a different section. That would quite often send them down, and if it hasn't that means bands have been consistently below average for 3 years, so can't really complain if they get relegated.

Anyway, back on topic. Will certainly have to practice long notes and intonation for the bass part in this piece.

goodthroughout
05.11.2007, 08:55
My band were promoted to the second section after competing year after year and acheiving promotion from the fourth. Because we then had two soloists who needed operations the band reluctantly decided to pull out of the areas after putting in our entry and looking forward to the day. As a result of that we were relegated again back down to the 3rd without playing a note in the second. We did appeal but I don`t think our face fitted with some on the committee, even though a n other band were reinstated to their section. Still never mind and in many aspects thanks to the committee that denied us as we`ve gained a huge reputation as a great 3rd section and have won man competitions since.

Al
05.11.2007, 10:46
I realise we are going off thread a little, but the subject of points/promotion/relegation in the Area rankings is an interesting one.

I have been having a trawl through the 4barsrest archive for the North West Regionals.
Timperley:
2004 - Position 9th (3rd section)
2005 - DNC (withdrew)
2006 - DNC
2007 - Position 1st (1st Section)

Now I wouldn't deny Timperley are a pretty good band these days but is promotion from the 3rd to the 1st in this way deserved?

'Other factors' are obviously taken into account than the points system.

madandcrazytromboneguy
05.11.2007, 14:00
i think they kinda reformed and re-entered, i presume they had their band assessed and got entry into the 1st section, the thing is, if they had gone back into the 3rd section, they would have probably wiped the floor with the other bands, so im guessing thats whats happened there

goodthroughout
05.11.2007, 14:46
Aren`t rules rules?? Admittedly this particular band may have been too strong, but until they were to compete you never know. It may also be the case that the band may have a mini collapse and players leave. Now I hope that that doesn`t happen but what I am trying to say is that there seems to be different rules being applied not only here but on other occasions as well.

Roger Thorne
05.11.2007, 16:47
Back on topic please folks - we're supposed to be discussing the test piece.

;)

goodthroughout
05.11.2007, 17:48
I see some `bonists are suggesting playing 2 troms. My question is `is this allowable under contest rules` which state that players must only play one instrument?

Roger Thorne
08.11.2007, 16:50
Just had a listen to this music on the Regionals CD and must comment that I'm very impressed with this piece being chosen for the Area contests. Although it looks and sounds easy enough I think this will be one of the toughest pieces the 3rd section have had in years.

So congratulations to PLC for a cracking set work and to the music panel for chosing it.

:clap:

Just one observation though, has anyone else noticed a timpani playing in the last bar? Strange that, because it doesn't appear on the score!

Tubdennis
08.11.2007, 18:45
brilliant piece of music have run through it with my band, can do perc with two but three may be better.composer has put score notes for different parts including perc.really looking forward to the area.

andyh
08.11.2007, 20:27
Just one observation though, has anyone else noticed a timpani playing in the last bar? Strange that, because it doesn't appear on the score!

You must have a different score to us then, 'cos timp has a triple-forte roll in the last bar...at least that's what I think it is (a paused semibreve with 3 oblique slants above it).

Hope there aren't different versions of the score out there !

Andy

Roger Thorne
08.11.2007, 21:49
You must have a different score to us then, 'cos timp has a triple-forte roll in the last bar...at least that's what I think it is (a paused semibreve with 3 oblique slants above it).

Sorry I mislead you there. The timp is rolling through the bar, but I can also hear three 'quaver' notes into the last bar.

;)

andyh
08.11.2007, 22:21
Sorry I mislead you there. The timp is rolling through the bar, but I can also hear three 'quaver' notes into the last bar.

;)

Ah, I see. Just listened to it and I can hear the timp in the last bar but the Sop's dominant so I can't hear any extra quavers, not with the headphones I used anyway. Brilliant sop playing throughout, I thought.

Andy

goodthroughout
09.11.2007, 08:37
not got a copy of the cd, but I`ve heard it. Who`s playing it ???

2nd man down
09.11.2007, 11:59
not got a copy of the cd, but I`ve heard it. Who`s playing it ???

Dyke I believe. They don't do bad with it all things considered. :rolleyes:

goodthroughout
09.11.2007, 14:52
Ah, I see. Just listened to it and I can hear the timp in the last bar but the Sop's dominant so I can't hear any extra quavers, not with the headphones I used anyway. Brilliant sop playing throughout, I thought.

Andy

AHHHH
So that`s why the sop part was ok.

Andy_Euph
14.11.2007, 01:07
This sounds like an absolutely fantastic, would be ace to play it. The influence of Peter Graham is there but the composer obviously has his own voice....from a purely listening point of view this seems like a winner :tup

Llamedos
11.01.2008, 06:21
Hiya
Just wondered.Our set of "Dark side of the moon" only seems to have 1 of each 2nd and 3rd cornet copies.Is this normal or do we have a "duff" set?
:(

Al
12.01.2008, 17:05
As a BBb player for this contest I really don't know where I am going to find the enthusiasm or the will to live, to be able to embark on 3 months intensive practice for this one :'(

Llamedos
12.01.2008, 17:17
Nice one Al-you summed up my thoughts in a nutshell!!
It's a smashing piece of music to listen to but having just been put down onto 2nd cornet from Rep I am wondering exactly the same!Having said that,the rep part wasn't that challenging either....!
It just seems to me that lately,the test pieces seem to be getting less challenging or is it my imagination??No offence intended to anybody!!
K:-?

CubbRep
12.01.2008, 17:41
Nice one Al-you summed up my thoughts in a nutshell!!
It's a smashing piece of music to listen to but having just been put down onto 2nd cornet from Rep I am wondering exactly the same!Having said that,the rep part wasn't that challenging either....!
It just seems to me that lately,the test pieces seem to be getting less challenging or is it my imagination??No offence intended to anybody!!
K:-?

As you have said,the piece is not really challenging.But as far as i'm concerned,the best full sounding bands will win.Also the bass end have to be really on the ball.
Also percussionists have a pretty demanding time.What a lovely test piece.Well done PLC.
CubbRep:tup

super_sop
12.01.2008, 18:00
I'm enjoying practicing it at home, for the first time ever, I'm able to practice a test piece with my daughter Abigail, great fun!!!

BbBill
12.01.2008, 19:37
As a BBb player for this contest I really don't know where I am going to find the enthusiasm or the will to live, to be able to embark on 3 months intensive practice for this one :'(

Yeh Im the same, I got bored on my 1st run throught the other night and picked up my EEb bass and played that part! Its got double the amount of stuff in it, WHY?!

Come on panel, pick a piece that at least gives BBb Bass players something to do and challenging!

I ended up playing top D's at the Nationals in the very start of Imperium, to give myself something to aim for!!

MRSH
12.01.2008, 19:45
I'm enjoying practicing it at home, for the first time ever, I'm able to practice a test piece with my daughter Abigail, great fun!!!Your daughter working the valves for you Craig!!!! ;):D

madandcrazytromboneguy
12.01.2008, 20:00
it aint just the bass parts that are uninspiring, the trombone parts are pretty bog standard too

i wont be needing to take the part home with me, not until we get a 2nd trombone player in anyway, the only practicing i'll need to do is to keep my bottom c's in tune and just fill the sound out as much as possible

its fortunate that theres no notes above top G# coz it is a big blow through, players with stamina will find this piece a breeze, coz their aint owt technical, apart from front row cornet, solo horn and solo euph, i think the rest is pretty bog standard

theres a bit in the quiet slow melody bit which is a mere 4 bars long, but i'll be making sure my sound is quality for that bit :D , tiz a nice little solo, wish it were longer!

theres quite a lot of the solo trombone part which has the same bar repeated over and over again, thats pretty tedius!

just want to hear the recording of it now to see how it sounds played properly

we have gotten into the piece now and i think the piece will suit us, bout time we had 1 that did coz the last 2 have not!

Roger Thorne
12.01.2008, 20:30
Interesting reading the last few posts here. But can I ask you all a queston. Why does a test piece have to be technically difficult to make it interesting?

I mentioned earlier in the thread that:
"Although it looks and sounds easy enough I think this will be one of the toughest pieces the 3rd section have had in years". A comment I still believe to be true, even more so now we've had a chance to play through it.

There are loads of 'tests' in this music for everyone to look at and they are mainly the 'basics'. You remember, the basics that lower section bands are criticised for by the adjudicators after every contest. ie: Tuning, Intonation, Phrasing, Balance, Breath Control, Articulation, Stamia, Rhythms et all. :rolleyes:

The overall parts, may be 'bog standard' and 'tedius' but it will take an awful lot of work and concentration by each individual band member to play the parts with all the above criteria in place.


;)

Mesmerist
12.01.2008, 20:36
Personally I`m finding that the more we play the harder it gets. Its all about sound quality isn`t it? I think its lovely and I think the audiences are in for a treat with this and James cook and Festival music. (sorry havn`t heard the other 2)

Ps Mr Thorne. My mum lives near Wem would it be outrageous if we came for a blow next time we visit her? (same section but different area)

Roger Thorne
12.01.2008, 20:46
Ps Mr Thorne. My mum lives near Wem would it be outrageous if we came for a blow next time we visit her? (same section but different area)

You would be made most welcome. If you are in the area on a Friday evening please feel free to come along. :tup

I'm glad that I'm not alone in thinking this is a difficult piece. I can almost here the adjuicators 'summing up' as I type.

;)

Anno Draconis
12.01.2008, 22:06
There are loads of 'tests' in this music for everyone to look at and they are mainly the 'basics'. You remember, the basics that lower section bands are criticised for by the adjudicators after every contest. ie: Tuning, Intonation, Phrasing, Balance, Breath Control, Articulation, Stamina, Rhythms et all. :rolleyes:

The overall parts, may be 'bog standard' and 'tedius' but it will take an awful lot of work and concentration by each individual band member to play the parts with all the above criteria in place.

:clap: Nail struck firmly on head. The piece won't test the valve waggling technique of individual players, but by jove it will test bands' ability to produce a quality sound, together and in tune. And if that was easy, we'd all be in the top section :D .

stopher
12.01.2008, 22:07
I think the piece is a cracking choice!

Have had 2 rehearsals on it and got to the end which made some of the band think its easy but the devil is in the detail and there are parts which will expose everyone on stage (MUSICALY filthy bunch!).

Ok, not the most interesting of Bass lines and some of it is repetetive but it is what you do with it and what the MD can bring out in the piece. Think we had a good test piece last year and have another this year!

andyh
12.01.2008, 22:20
I feel I have to agree with recent posts; it may not appeal to the better players
amongst us but it's a cracking piece and I think a lot of bands will struggle to
produce the full soundscape that the author had in mind especially when you
consider that it contains dynamics from ppp to fff...

So far I've enjoyed rehearsing it and as Rep, there are definitely some interesting
challenges. What about those off-beat minims at "I" ? Show me a 3rd Section
player who doesn't end up ON the beat by the time we get to "J" and I'll be
looking at a potential 2nd Section player !

I'm just a tad disappointed that it wasn't an arrangement of the Pink Floyd
Dark Side of The Moon ;-)

Andy

stephenmrry
13.01.2008, 10:30
I must agree with Roger on the fact that this is a tough piece. My band have decided to play it as our own choice selection at the Irish Nationals and i can tell you its getting harder and harder. It requires incredible balance and stamina as well because its a big blow especialy the last section from around V.

Its funny our md said it wasn't technical at all and now only 3 practices in he has changed his tone. Throw on top of that Chaucers Tunes by Michael Ball as the test piece and i think we made a good choice. I think the middle section of the piece is what will be the telling difference from the cornet cadenza till V because this can be a tuning minefield with so much quiet playing followed by very loud playing.

Llamedos
13.01.2008, 10:49
I feel I have to agree with recent posts; it may not appeal to the better players
amongst us but it's a cracking piece and I think a lot of bands will struggle to
produce the full soundscape that the author had in mind especially when you
consider that it contains dynamics from ppp to fff...

So far I've enjoyed rehearsing it and as Rep, there are definitely some interesting
challenges. What about those off-beat minims at "I" ? Show me a 3rd Section
player who doesn't end up ON the beat by the time we get to "J" and I'll be
looking at a potential 2nd Section player !


I'm just a tad disappointed that it wasn't an arrangement of the Pink Floyd
Dark Side of The Moon ;-)

Andy

I agree with you Andy abou the off beat minims at I!I suppose one thing to be thankful for is now I am playing 2nd cornet then I won't have to worry about them!Just whether or not I can keep my F#'s and Eb's in tune muted &quiet!!
Good luck!!
K:)

Al
13.01.2008, 20:12
I can't deny that the piece is wonderful to listen to and that it is not as easy as it first looks of course. To play a commendable band performance is going to be very difficult. As has been mentioned a band is going to need to concentrate on tuning, dynamics, tempo etc. But when did a test piece ever test the mind-numbing levels of a bandsman? I respect any bass player that keeps up enthusiasm for this piece and hasn't had their mind blown after 3 months.

I don't mean to be critical, just a simple observation. I am considering the use of hypnosis or similar to get me through until March.

That said, I will be looking forward to listening as many times as possible to James Cook Circumnavigator, the First Section Test Piece. It will remind me of when I were a lad in the audience at Belle Vue in 1974 for the British Open.

Mesmerist
13.01.2008, 20:44
i do have sympathy Al. I left my last band for a couple of reasons but a big one was doing that victorian ratcliffe nationals piece. I hated it SO much I chose not to go to the finals. Its horrible when you really dislike a piece.
Yes D S of T Moon is not demanding in the technical fun ways but its lovely as a whole.(no trombones having to do drunken sailors in it)

BbBill
13.01.2008, 22:23
Opps Ive written my earlier post in the wrong thread by mistake, shouldve been in the 2nd section thread!

JR
14.01.2008, 12:54
I left my last band for a couple of reasons but a big one was doing that victorian ratcliffe nationals piece. I hated it SO much I chose not to go to the finals.

"chose"...mmm..gentle warning - please don't try this in Yorkshire..

john

tubafran
14.01.2008, 13:17
Played this piece with BBSBB yesterday at the Conductors Area workshop at Dobcross band club - very interesting comments raised by the particpants and Roy Newsome.

Ones I recalled are - to bring out the accompanying bass line in the quiet passage after the cornet cadenza bars. Not to play too loud in 3rd bar of R so that the tune can be heard.

Think we might have done quite well at the areas playing this - unfortunately we aren't in the 3rd section. Would make a fine concert piece though, start is very similar to Batman, some Jurrasic Park in the big tune and think it's got a bit of Bolero at the end.

Mesmerist
14.01.2008, 13:59
"chose"...mmm..gentle warning - please don't try this in Yorkshire..

john

sorry john perhaps I should have worded that better. I chose to leave the band in the august before the nationals. Knew i wasn`t letting them down cos there were other players floating around. It is a hobby and we all have to be enjoying ourselves wouldn`t you agree?

Dave1
18.01.2008, 09:54
I may have missed something earlier on in this thread but has anyone come across mistakes in the score/parts. I had just heard a wee rumour (dangerous I know) that there were some.
Thanks
D

2nd trom virtuoso
18.01.2008, 15:09
Very nice sounding piece of music, but I reckon alot of 3rd section bands will be overblowing as it seems to be easily done through the movements - especially at the end. Sound/Precision not volume!!!!!!!!!! They are all gonna loose points :P

shaunbasstrom
18.01.2008, 18:42
Very nice sounding piece of music, but I reckon alot of 3rd section bands will be overblowing as it seems to be easily done through the movements - especially at the end. Sound/Precision not volume!!!!!!!!!! They are all gonna loose points :P

All of them, thats a very sweeping comment to make dont you think. I told all of mine exactly the same thing as you said so you cant assume that all of them will do it.....

skweeky
19.01.2008, 02:07
I have to say that DSOTM is by far the finest of this years' regional test pieces and some of the chord progressions are simply amazing!

I definitely hear John Williams, especially the bass line!

Although no-one will be grinding their valves, practicing running passages, I think that the fluid movement, balance and tuning will be judged upon most severely.

Bands in this section vary greatly in sound quality and tone, and this piece will surely be a fine exploit of these qualities (or lack of!!!!!)

I could easily listen to ALL of the bands in the few areas i will be going to, and i will probably not get bored of this piece - Gorgeous writing!!!

Well done P L-C!!! :clap:

andyh
19.01.2008, 11:50
I have to say that DSOTM is by far the finest of this years' regional test pieces and some of the chord progressions are simply amazing!

I definitely hear John Williams, especially the bass line!

Well done P L-C!!! :clap:

Yes, at last a test piece that makes your hair stand on end for all the RIGHT reasons :p

Andy

Nick Wilson
19.01.2008, 18:34
I played his solo for baritone Donegal Bay recently - really beautiful. David Childs has recorded it on his new Celtic Charm CD.

Mesmerist
19.01.2008, 22:03
51 days to go I think for the west of england versions of this piece...
If we are drawn 1st (be 3 in a row if we are) I`m going to listen to every band as its so gorgeous

Roger Thorne
20.01.2008, 00:04
I wouldn't hold your breath about all performances being 'gorgeous'!! You might get one or two exceptional performances from the better bands, but I would hazard a guess that the majority of bands will struggle with this one.

;)

davethehorny
20.01.2008, 15:35
OK - three practices in and this one is really going to sort out the bands.

Although the dots might look easy on each part - fitting them together will take a lot of work.

I am starting to think that going back on Eb Bass from Solo Horn for the contest might have been a mistake. Not because I don't like the part but because I don't have that much breath!

Great piece to play and listen to - I too will listen to this piece as many times as I can.

The music panel deserve a real pat on the back for choosing this piece for the Third Section.:clap:

madandcrazytromboneguy
20.01.2008, 17:56
1 slight critisizm ive got is that an FFF in a piece for a lower section band is going to encourage overblowing and blasting coz bands will be trying too hard to play the FFF section louder than the FF sections, i think that FFF's and PPP's should be kept for 1st and champ bands when it comes to area test pieces, possibly 2nd sction at a pinch

dont think any of you will agree with this point but hell theres no harm in mentioning it

steve butler
20.01.2008, 18:04
1 slight critisizm ive got is that an FFF in a piece for a lower section band is going to encourage overblowing and blasting coz bands will be trying too hard to play the FFF section louder than the FF sections, i think that FFF's and PPP's should be kept for 1st and champ bands when it comes to area test pieces, possibly 2nd sction at a pinch

dont think any of you will agree with this point but hell theres no harm in mentioning it
I would say just make sure there is a difference between ff and fff, if this means lowering the general dynamic then do it. But as you say don't overblow or this will lose you marks. Similar with ppp's, you must be able to play with some control and balance, so if it means slightly louder then in my opinion that is the more sensible approach. Controlled playing usually reaps better rewards.

sparkling_quavers
20.01.2008, 19:53
Would make a fine concert piece though, start is very similar to Batman, some Jurrasic Park in the big tune and think it's got a bit of Bolero at the end.

Haha! That is exactly what I thought when I had a listen in the car on the way back from Butlins! Sounds like a great piece though; some lovely moments and should certainly test the bands in terms of sound quality and stamina.

flugel_fancy
20.01.2008, 22:00
Great piece to play and listen to - I too will listen to this piece as many times as I can.

The music panel deserve a real pat on the back for choosing this piece for the Third Section.:clap:

Completely agree with you :tongue: I have stuck it on my ipod and start each mornings tram journey to work with a quick listen. My itunes counter for this track is currently at 45 and climbing rapidly. A bit OTT maybe but worth it :biggrin:

UbiquitousSnideAnthropoid
21.01.2008, 17:05
"I definitely hear John Williams, especially the bass line!"


The first part definitely has an Elfman Batman sound while near the conclusion I'm reminded of William's Superman.

I find one of the best ways to listen to DSOTM is to pick out the many occurrences of the motive the piece is written around.

Okay! Okay! How many have no idea what I mean by "motive"? :dunno

flugel_fancy
21.01.2008, 18:35
"I definitely hear John Williams, especially the bass line!"




Yes, I'm getting a mega whif of Jurassic Park at section W :biggrin: and am liking it! I think it's just fab.

Al
22.01.2008, 12:08
Well, after all my negative thoughts on this one I have to say I'm starting, just a little, to enjoy it!

There are some wonderful harmonies going on in the rest of the band at times and I feel I just have to suss out all those chords.

I won't ever admit to this piece growing on me though. Oh no.

2nd man down
22.01.2008, 12:19
yeah, i'm really loving it, but we have a hell of a lot of work to do on it!!

Matt Lawson
22.01.2008, 15:10
I can't stop listening to it.

It truly is a great test piece, especially for the 3rd section.

Everyone has got their little moments, even down to a 2nd Baritone solo!

It's a b*gger to play, even on tbe back row, as contrasts between ppp and fff aren't easy on the lip.

A tricky piece but perhaps one of the most enjoyable ones I've played in the 3rd and 4th section.

louise0502
22.01.2008, 16:41
Okay! Okay! How many have no idea what I mean by "motive"? :dunno

Don't you mean motif?

No, I don't know what it is, would be interested though.

Matt Lawson
22.01.2008, 23:19
A motif, for those who are unaware, is a small passage which is used and reused throughout a piece.

It's full name is a 'leitmotif' which first really appeared in the Romantic period.

It normally related to a certain character/love situation/location:

Examples include the Jack/Rose theme from Titanic and perhaps the most famous is the Imperial March to signify Darth Vader in Star Wars.

In this piece, it is the C minor triad which first appears in the Euph in the 4th or 5th bar I believe, and is heard throughout in every section of the band.

It's prominent because strangely the piece only ever really modulates from C minor to C major at R, and then back into C minor before ending in the major again. Very little modulation is used.

There - how's that for a music student's answer... ;)

James Yelland
23.01.2008, 07:32
It's prominent because strangely the piece only ever really modulates from C minor to C major at R, and then back into C minor ...
There - how's that for a music student's answer...

As a music student, could you express things in concert pitch please? Not all of us play B flat instruments!

louise0502
23.01.2008, 09:59
Don't you mean motif?

No, I don't know what it is, would be interested though.

Just thought I'd clarify, I did actually know what a motif is, I just didn't know what it was in this piece. Although, if I'd thought about it a little harder, it is actually quite obvious lol.

Matt Lawson
23.01.2008, 10:44
As a music student, could you express things in concert pitch please?

Nope. :oops:

Well ok then, I believe for Bass Trombone it will be in D minor.

For E flat instruments, it should be in F minor - although my transposition skills are shameful!

Gorgie boy
23.01.2008, 10:48
Nope. :oops:

Well ok then, I believe for Bass Trombone it will be in D minor.

For E flat instruments, it should be in F minor - although my transposition skills are shameful!

Think you mean Bb minor for Bass Trombone and G minor for Eb instruments - presuming that C minor is for Bb instruments.

Matt Lawson
23.01.2008, 10:59
As I said, transposition isn't my strong point.

Note to self: Never try and transpose on a public forum ever again! :(

Well it's only degree level - you can't expect us to learn anything useful!

James Yelland
23.01.2008, 11:03
Nope.

Refreshingly honest!

Actually I think the answer is B flat minor and and B flat major respectively, irrespective of the pitch of any given instrument.

Gorgie boy
23.01.2008, 11:12
Refreshingly honest!

Actually I think the answer is B flat minor and and B flat major respectively, irrespective of the pitch of any given instrument.

Point taken!

Matt Lawson
23.01.2008, 11:14
Something like that. It's in B flat minor concert pitch is the piece, I think!

Anyway - back on topic (even though we didn't really stray from it)...

What is everyone's favourite 'section' of the test piece?

i) The quiet opening and original statement of the theme.
ii) The first fast section (melody in trombones then back row)
iii) The solo section (cornet -> euph -> horn -> rep)
iv) The cornet cadenza and slow melody
v) The muted cornet section with bass line melody
vi) 'R' - the transition to the major key and the spine tingling fff bar
vii) The cornet melody after the second main quiet section into the quiet quaver line which crescendos into ff theme
viii) The ending

I realise that's all a bit vague!

I personally like everything from 'R' forward the most. The tension between the loud ff/fff parts and the ppp muted cornet section and quaver section is fantastic. Really builds to an exciting climax.

I love how he uses the 7-6 suspension lots and lots (C with a B resolving to an A in the cornet line)... really crunching and effective.

James Yelland
23.01.2008, 11:37
What is everyone's favourite 'section' of the test piece?

I rather like the counterpoint in the presto myself.

ploughboy
23.01.2008, 11:41
Geeks! I like all the bits we can play - thus on the day i'll enjoy the whole thing!

sugarandspice
23.01.2008, 11:47
i) The quiet opening and original statement of the theme.
ii) The first fast section (melody in trombones then back row)
iii) The solo section (cornet -> euph -> horn -> rep)
iv) The cornet cadenza and slow melody
v) The muted cornet section with bass line melody
vi) 'R' - the transition to the major key and the spine tingling fff bar
vii) The cornet melody after the second main quiet section into the quiet quaver line which crescendos into ff theme
viii) The ending

I realise that's all a bit vague!

.

Ummm, not really?! Infact i don't think you could have been less vauge! :)

I like it, looking forward to listening to it at the areas.
There's a bass trom note somewhere near the begining which is brilliant, but on the whole i think its a cracking piece! :)

Matt Lawson
23.01.2008, 11:47
Geeks!

Says the man who found it fascinating that there was a picture of the moon on the front cover of the score... ;)

Jack the Baritone King
23.01.2008, 13:46
The cornet cadenza is superb, I play that bit on my ipod over and over again, also when Croftons PC Sir Andrew Clutton plays it, i'm sure that even the adjudicators will be crying!! lol. Honestly if you get the chance of listening to him then I would highly reccomend that you do so.

I also love from R when the piece really gets going, it sounds amazing and I'm sure nobody will ever get tired of playing it.

Hat off to you Paul Lovatt-Cooper son!!:clap:

Matt Lawson
23.01.2008, 15:09
...also when Croftons PC Sir Andrew Clutton plays it, i'm sure that even the adjudicators will be crying!!

I'm sure there'll be a lot of playing on the day which will make the adjudicators cry... ;)

Jack the Baritone King
23.01.2008, 15:22
Yeah but I didn't mean it like that lol honest!! Im sure Emley Band would give it a good go though:D

jonmoss
23.01.2008, 16:27
Can't wait to play Paul's fantastic test piece again. Shame the man himself is not waving the baton this time though. However, I'm sure Duncan Beckley is a damn fine alternative !!!

MissRepiano
23.01.2008, 16:47
I'm sure there'll be a lot of playing on the day which will make the adjudicators cry... ;)

You mean ajudicators have feelings?!?! LOL! :tongue:

Anyway, haven't read the whole thread so don't know what everyone's opinion of this piece is but i've been lisetning to the regionals cd in the car and it's brill!!! I love it, I just I wish I was playing it!

2nd man down
25.01.2008, 01:41
Yeah but I didn't mean it like that lol honest!! Im sure Emley Band would give it a good go though:D


Oh I'll have them crying all right...you'll still hear them laughing when the next section bands take the stage... :-?

flugel_fancy
25.01.2008, 17:39
Oh I'll have them crying all right...you'll still hear them laughing when the next section bands take the stage... :-?

Ha wait till you hear me!! I'm still asking the question 'so do you cut the troms off before or after that pause??' and I still get it wrong at least once! :redface:

Matt Lawson
25.01.2008, 17:45
Ha wait till you hear me!! I'm still asking the question 'so do you cut the troms off before or after that pause??' and I still get it wrong at least once! :redface:

Crawf is now thinking: 'There's a pause?!'

flugel_fancy
25.01.2008, 19:04
Crawf is now thinking: 'There's a pause?!'


Cornet players??.......thinking?? something not quite right there Matt :biggrin:

2nd man down
25.01.2008, 21:55
THERE'S A PAUSE?!?!? WHAT TROM?!?!?? :eek:

Matt Lawson
25.01.2008, 21:56
THERE'S A PAUSE?!?!? WHAT TROM?!?!?? :eek:

What cornet? ;)

a very flat b
25.01.2008, 23:00
What cornet? ;)


Boy's come on...

Could Mr. Ploughboy stop the public bickering.... please.:oops::oops::oops:

2nd man down
25.01.2008, 23:03
Oh it's not bickering...we both agree I'm useless ;)

a very flat b
25.01.2008, 23:05
Oh it's not bickering...we both agree I'm useless ;)

Now come on you know there's always BBb Bass........

No one is useless:-?

madandcrazytromboneguy
28.01.2008, 00:03
the bit i like is the small trombone solo bit that is also played by firstly flugel, then trombone, then i think horn, and then i think euph, can't remember without either going to rehearsal or listening to the cd, but its the only bit where trombone has a proper nice melodic solo

the band or bands who get this section right could do well coz its a nice little bit of simple yet effective music writing

ABERDEEN LOON
28.01.2008, 15:59
the bit i like is the small trombone solo bit that is also played by firstly flugel, then trombone, then i think horn, and then i think euph, can't remember without either going to rehearsal or listening to the cd, but its the only bit where trombone has a proper nice melodic solo

the band or bands who get this section right could do well coz its a nice little bit of simple yet effective music writing

I just get annoyed that he stopped the full solo line at the Euph so the Bass only gets half a bar of it! Herumph! There goed my momment of glory:redface:

Never mind, another rehearsal tonight to try to get the concept of 1, watching the conductor, 2, Subdividing, and 3, to balance a band, you listen to the lower instruments and balance from there up.

Fifi
28.01.2008, 16:53
Does anyone else think that bout 2/3rds of the way in this piece sounds familar to that of jurrasic park??

Jack the Baritone King
28.01.2008, 19:04
Does anyone else think that bout 2/3rds of the way in this piece sounds familar to that of jurrasic park??
Yeah I though that too, it seems that t'old Paul lad is quite the movie fanatic!! It's still gorgeous though :biggrin:

flugel_fancy
28.01.2008, 22:46
Does anyone else think that bout 2/3rds of the way in this piece sounds familar to that of jurrasic park??


Yeh I think it really sounds like the theme tune to JP at section 'W'

x:tongue:x

Matt Lawson
29.01.2008, 00:13
It's hard to appreciate the melody when you're concentrating on playing semi breves. ;)

madandcrazytromboneguy
02.02.2008, 22:51
heres an interesting point, which of the brass parts has the most rests?!

by this i mean only full bar rests that are grouped in 2 or more

the piece has 328 bars in total

my part has 92 bars rest (1st Trombone)

feels like i have more than that coz a big chunk of those rests are all in 1, from D to H

still nearly a 3rd of the piece where im resting tho!

DMBabe
05.02.2008, 04:42
Surely I have more rests than that??? I'm on flugel and there's aplenty bits where everyone else is chuntering away and I get to sit and stare blankly into the distance (which admittedly is quite normal behaviour). Maybe he believes in quality not quantity? Our conductor (also a flugel player) can't get over how much free time I have! In the beginning he asked if I was meant to be playing and the score was wrong! Mind u it seems to be damned important when I do play! Will count the bars rest and get back to you!!!;)

DMBabe
05.02.2008, 04:47
heres an interesting point, which of the brass parts has the most rests?!

Well it ain't gonna be percussion....... cos they don't stop! U think he was sticking to what he knows??? My man is already peed off about how much he has to play when I get to sit and pull faces at him (Timps ahoy!!).:clap:

Matt Lawson
05.02.2008, 12:02
Contrary to many other test pieces in the lower sections, the back row actually have quite a bit to do.

Our part is written on three pages, and on the last two we have something like 6 bars rest out of 200.

Even though a lot of it is low register and p, pp or ppp - it's still quite hard on the lip.

I wish they'd open some gyms were you could train your lip, and not just other useless muscles...

tat
05.02.2008, 12:20
I wish they'd open some gyms were you could train your lip, and not just other useless muscles...

They have!!! its called your bedroom for an hour every day!! LOl

Matt Lawson
05.02.2008, 12:25
I'm not entirely sure how to respond to that.

You of course meant practice on the cornet for an hour every day, which happens to occur in the bedroom due to the insulation qualities of aforementioned room?

2nd man down
05.02.2008, 12:27
I'm not entirely sure how to respond to that.

You of course meant practice on the cornet for an hour every day, which happens to occur in the bedroom due to the insulation qualities of aforementioned room?


Dirty Boy!

lets not let this wander off topic please.

DMBabe
06.02.2008, 22:36
heres an interesting point, which of the brass parts has the most rests?!

by this i mean only full bar rests that are grouped in 2 or more

the piece has 328 bars in total

my part has 92 bars rest (1st Trombone)

feels like i have more than that coz a big chunk of those rests are all in 1, from D to H

still nearly a 3rd of the piece where im resting tho!
I can now confirm, after sitting down and counting, the flugel part has 137 full bars rest in total (129 if u only count the bracketed multiple rests). Do I win the award for part with the most rests??? Like I said, quality not quantity!!!;)

Matt Lawson
06.02.2008, 23:15
Like I said, quality not quantity!!!

Why are you playing Flugel then?! ;)

Maybe our mate Paul thought it best not to write as many bars so there was less chance of spoiling a lovely piece of music...

Only joking. Honest.

Just had another rehearsal on this, and it STILL gets better every time I hear it. One of the best, if not the best, third section test piece for years.

DMBabe
06.02.2008, 23:35
How very dare you!!!:eek: Flugel (like bass trombone and soprano) is an instrument which takes a certain kind of finesse and personality(or insanity). Maybe you need a new flugel player if you can't appreciate the wonder of an instrument that is like no-ones child to some composers/arrangers? ;)

Has been noted by our 4th man down (who is right next to me) that when I play it is mightily important and often severley underscored!!!:confused:

Matt Lawson
06.02.2008, 23:43
...if you can't appreciate the wonder of an instrument that is like no-ones child to most composers/arrangers?


There you go - corrected that for you... ;)

madandcrazytromboneguy
06.02.2008, 23:57
How very dare you!!!:eek: Flugel (like bass trombone and soprano) is an instrument which takes a certain kind of finesse and personality(or insanity).


I couldn't agree more, i said to my family a while back that which ever band i take on, i want it to have a good sop, flugel, and bass trom inparticular!

in terms of if u win the rests thing i dont know yet, coz other sections need to post their parts on here

and matt yes the back row is very involved, including melody and parts which link with the trombones

however i cant agree on how much better a piece it is the more we are playing it

the more we play it, the more i wish i were playing a different instrument if im honest lol

DMBabe
07.02.2008, 01:57
Still think I win!! Am a saddo with a score and am pretty sure no-one can top flugel for number of rests. Like I said before, there are times aplenty where I am sat looking about as everyone else "blaws their bits off"!
Honest, I got it for my persecusionist husband who was bricking it when he heard it was written by one of his kind and our librarian wouldn't give the parts out till after we'd done all our xmas stuff, despite my other half begging so got it to restore peace in my house. Do I get a medal? :D Or more bits added as an addendum/editing by our confused MD who thinks it's a crime to misuse a flugel player (anyone care to guess what he does???).

DMBabe
07.02.2008, 01:58
There you go - corrected that for you... ;)
Absolutely! I apologise for my error! ;)

Robhibberd29
07.02.2008, 02:00
4th section piece is written by a timp player but I don't think it's reason enough to brick it :-)

Robhibberd29
07.02.2008, 02:02
How very dare you!!!:eek: Flugel (like bass trombone and soprano) is an instrument which takes a certain kind of finesse and personality(or insanity). Maybe you need a new flugel player if you can't appreciate the wonder of an instrument that is like no-ones child to some composers/arrangers? ;)

Has been noted by our 4th man down (who is right next to me) that when I play it is mightily important and often severley underscored!!!:confused:

Couldn't agree with you more there ;-)

DMBabe
07.02.2008, 02:14
4th section piece is written by a timp player but I don't think it's reason enough to brick it :-)
It is when he's an oboe player who plays timps cos he married me!;) These wind-players take their music far too seriously...... unlike me who's stock response is WHATEVER!!!!:D

Robhibberd29
07.02.2008, 02:19
An oboe player who plays timp eh? Curious combination....probably bricks it all the time anyway, wondering where the reed is ;-) and what are those pedals for?!!

DMBabe
07.02.2008, 02:31
Actually he's better at percussion. Maybe I'm biased but i find unless oboe is played really well (which it often isn't by my other half) it can sound like a cat getting its nethers caught in a mousetrap! It is true he finds the pedals a bit confusing, but then he also drives like Thora Hird on prozac, so maybe there's a link??!:tongue:

Robhibberd29
07.02.2008, 02:48
Maybe your hubby ought to stick to the timps then, instead of instruments you can't even play in a brass band, what's the point in that! ;-)

DMBabe
07.02.2008, 03:32
That's what I said when I met him! He came from a wind band background and was impressed by the banter and social scene in brass bands when we got together..... like the old adage goes " if you can't beat it join it".... seems he was too literal with the beating part, taking up percussion but being an oboe player he can blow any brass instrument straight (not pretty) and has the staple repertoire of 3 notes..... fwah, fwooh and fwee!

Llamedos
07.02.2008, 06:07
Haven't counted my bars rest yet-probably easier to count how many bars I have to play!!!Damn sure 2nd cornet has got more rest that 3rd cornet though-they seem to be playing when we're not on the last page!
It was a refreshing change to attempt a different piece in practice MOnday-am I going to go the distance on this one without losing my marbles!!!zzzzzzzzzzzzzz:(

mikelyons
12.02.2008, 09:19
Having played this piece for the first time last night, I cannot believe that you intelligent and musical people are so enthusiastic for this boring piece of rubbish.

It is full of trite tunes that are repeated endlessly and largely aimlessly. I noted the 'tributes' to John Williams, Danny Elfman et al, but I really think this is little of a test in the traditional sense.

Most 3rd section bands will overblow the fffs while being too insecure or too safe on the ppp. Meanwhile all the basses will be bored shiftless by their undemanding and uninteresting part. Most bands will suffer tuning problems, true, but that is, at the moment, a characteristic of 3rd section bands - which we already know. How then is that a test?

It's not even fit for the concert programme. Yes, it is pleasant to listen to, but it is totally banal and and bland goes on for far too long with far too little to say. I have to say that I am disappointed in this choice of test piece. There are far more worthy efforts out there. And by new, young composers as well.

Even thought I loathe Spectrum, I'd rather play that than this banality.

waynefiler
12.02.2008, 15:21
PLayed D.S.O.T.M for the first time last night, first off what a blinding piece not sure about the range the cornet solo is written in but that's my opinion.

Just a quick show of hands (figuratively) what mutes are cornet players using for the 'tin mute' when it appears?

CubbRep
12.02.2008, 17:25
PLayed D.S.O.T.M for the first time last night, first off what a blinding piece not sure about the range the cornet solo is written in but that's my opinion.

Just a quick show of hands (figuratively) what mutes are cornet players using for the 'tin mute' when it appears?

Our cornet players are using tin mutes as specified.
:tup

andyh
12.02.2008, 18:09
Our cornet players are using tin mutes as specified.
:tup

Yep - same here. They're definitely made of tin ;-) Makes a horrible noise when the inevitable "drop" event occurs!

Andy

andyh
12.02.2008, 18:14
Having played this piece for the first time last night, I cannot believe that you intelligent and musical people are so enthusiastic for this boring piece of rubbish.

It is full of trite tunes that are repeated endlessly and largely aimlessly. I noted the 'tributes' to John Williams, Danny Elfman et al, but I really think this is little of a test in the traditional sense.

Most 3rd section bands will overblow the fffs while being too insecure or too safe on the ppp. Meanwhile all the basses will be bored shiftless by their undemanding and uninteresting part. Most bands will suffer tuning problems, true, but that is, at the moment, a characteristic of 3rd section bands - which we already know. How then is that a test?

It's not even fit for the concert programme. Yes, it is pleasant to listen to, but it is totally banal and and bland goes on for far too long with far too little to say. I have to say that I am disappointed in this choice of test piece. There are far more worthy efforts out there. And by new, young composers as well.

Even thought I loathe Spectrum, I'd rather play that than this banality.

That was rather unneccesarily vitriolic, don't you think? I can't think of a single test piece in recent years where at least one section of the band has had parts of it they don't like. Are you seriously suggesting this is the first one you've found so easy that it's boring? I think it's a fallacy to fall into the trap of thinking it's too easy for 3rd section bands; as I'm sure the adjudicators comments will bear out on the day. There's lots to trap the over-confident IMHO.

Personally I'm glad that the selectors have chosen a piece from a talented new composer rather than from some dusty back catalogue. And yes, we'll be using it in our next concert!

Andy

CubbRep
12.02.2008, 18:36
Cubbington will be playing it at our first concert of the year on,1st March.

Llamedos
12.02.2008, 19:09
:clap: Our cornet section are using Wick 5504 tin mutes and Wick convertible cups!Hope I don't drop mine-got arthrits in the left thumb and find it hard to pull the mute out!!If anyone at Torquay hears one nof the 3rd section drop a mute,you can bet your life it WILL be me!
Anyone know where I can get mine re-corked (near Bath)??
Thanks
K

Al
12.02.2008, 19:49
Having played this piece for the first time last night . . . etc

Exactly how I felt at first. Even to the extent of nearly saying stuff it I can't be bothered with it.

(BBb btw) it did seem very uninteresting and undemanding at first. Then as a section we all realised there is a lot of work needs doing. As a band we realise there is a lot of work needs doing.

. . . . and strangely, very strangely, we are getting to enjoy playing the piece.

Well worth the perseverance!

Mesmerist
12.02.2008, 21:35
Having played this piece for the first time last night, I cannot believe that you intelligent and musical people are so enthusiastic for this boring piece of rubbish

You are entitled to your opinion of course. I can`t agree with you about this piece or spectrum which I have enjoyed playing. You do sound a mite tetchy and grumpy...:mad: Perhaps a few more rehearsals may change your mind...but its only another 4 weeks anyway

Roger Thorne
12.02.2008, 21:39
Quote from the Score:


Where metronome markings are given, they should be observed precisely. (PLC)
So on the Areas CD, why do Black Dyke Band play the opening bars 10 digits slower than marked? Clocked it at a crotchet = 54 (approx). Playing the opening at the correct tempo really sets the piece off a quite a pace.

I just hope the adjudicators enter their respective boxes equippted with metronomes, rather than relying on their memory of a CD recording which is totally inaccurate.

:rolleyes:

mikelyons
12.02.2008, 21:51
You are entitled to your opinion of course. I can`t agree with you about this piece or spectrum which I have enjoyed playing. You do sound a mite tetchy and grumpy...:mad: Perhaps a few more rehearsals may change your mind...but its only another 4 weeks anyway
Both tetchy and grumpy are my middle names - especially when I am presented with music that is less than inspiring. Yet again the basses have zip to play - ok, so we'll need to plan breathing (but what's new about that?) Yes we'll have to count (ditto) but it really is trite and banal music. It is even boring to listen to (after the 65th time of hearing the cornets muck up their really rather simple parts yet again while we play a (very) long g (c for the BBbs.)

The reason I don't like spectrum is because it's pretentious, contrived and self-conscious and is less than Vinter's best music as a result. The reason I don't like DSOTM is because it too, in its way, is self-conscious and contrived - and unlike the Vinter is quite un-subtle and to my ear unskillful. It's basically the same uninspired and unprepossessing motif repeated again, and again, and again...

If this was just a piece of concert music, I wouldn't be that bothered - apart from the 'unfortunate' length, but this is presented as a test piece. It should be more than it is. I suspect whoever chose this fell for the "Aw, bless" factor. I doubt whether they listened to it all the way through (at least not without falling asleep!) And they obviously weren't a bass player.

CubbRep
12.02.2008, 22:09
I take it that you will not be listening to any of the bands that have to play this test piece at the area's.And I also take it that you will not be participating in any of the area's that have to play this fine piece.

Chris Hicks
12.02.2008, 22:28
Anyone know where I can get mine re-corked (near Bath)??
Thanks
K

Buy a block of cork and cut to the right shape and glue on! Simple! :biggrin:

Chris

weemarky
12.02.2008, 22:48
Both tetchy and grumpy are my middle names - especially when I am presented with music that is less than inspiring. Yet again the basses have zip to play - ok, so we'll need to plan breathing (but what's new about that?) Yes we'll have to count (ditto) but it really is trite and banal music. It is even boring to listen to (after the 65th time of hearing the cornets muck up their really rather simple parts yet again while we play a (very) long g (c for the BBbs.)

The reason I don't like spectrum is because it's pretentious, contrived and self-conscious and is less than Vinter's best music as a result. The reason I don't like DSOTM is because it too, in its way, is self-conscious and contrived - and unlike the Vinter is quite un-subtle and to my ear unskillful. It's basically the same uninspired and unprepossessing motif repeated again, and again, and again...

If this was just a piece of concert music, I wouldn't be that bothered - apart from the 'unfortunate' length, but this is presented as a test piece. It should be more than it is. I suspect whoever chose this fell for the "Aw, bless" factor. I doubt whether they listened to it all the way through (at least not without falling asleep!) And they obviously weren't a bass player.

If its that bad and you dislike it so much practice and you might end up playing something a bit more challenging next year!

Personally I love it and have found myself going along to help a 3rd section band at every available oppurtunity just to play the piece even though I wont be playing with anyone at the Regionals!

vickyrowlands
12.02.2008, 23:00
I agree, its a great piece! I didn't like it at first but its grown on me!

Chunky
13.02.2008, 09:01
Most 3rd section bands will overblow the fffs while being too insecure or too safe on the ppp. Meanwhile all the basses will be bored shiftless by their undemanding and uninteresting part. Most bands will suffer tuning problems, true, but that is, at the moment, a characteristic of 3rd section bands - which we already know. How then is that a test?



But is that not the point. To test the bands on the things they can't do rather than the things they can?

IMO I don't have to play the piece, but would love to! Try being a bass player in Carnival. At least in DSOTM its a better listen. Again IMO

mikelyons
13.02.2008, 12:01
If its that bad and you dislike it so much practice and you might end up playing something a bit more challenging next year!

That remark is beneath you! I made a deliberate choice to move to a 3rd section (nationally) band because I wanted to do some conducting, which was not realistically on offer elsewhere.

Given the choice of Carnival for the 2nd section a couple of years a go I think I probably made the right choice. However, my point is that surely the board could come up with something better in terms of music. There are vast quantities of good quality, testing and interesting music out there and they come up with bland, mediocre pap.

weemarky
13.02.2008, 12:22
That remark is beneath you! I made a deliberate choice to move to a 3rd section (nationally) band because I wanted to do some conducting, which was not realistically on offer elsewhere.

Given the choice of Carnival for the 2nd section a couple of years a go I think I probably made the right choice. However, my point is that surely the board could come up with something better in terms of music. There are vast quantities of good quality, testing and interesting music out there and they come up with bland, mediocre pap.

In your opinion. The majority of people Ive heard comment on the piece have really enjoyed playing and rehearsaing it.

An earlier post mentioned that bands will overblow the fff's and play out of tune because that is a "characteristic" of 3rd Section bands right now. Maybe the selection committee have noticed this and chose a piece to make bands work on these issues. Not so technically demanding but musically demanding. As with the Championship Section testpiece the challenge is in playing a well controlled, musical performance. As a budding conductor surely you should look at things like this with an open mind and look beyond the dots.

Weemarky

mikelyons
13.02.2008, 12:44
As I am playing bass in this piece, I think I'm entitled to complain about the bass parts.

If I were conducting, I'd be complaining about the difficulty of motivating said engine room and getting the rest of the band to try and enjoy this boring piece.

You can only say the same thing so many times before people start getting bored.
You can only say the same thing so many times before people start getting bored.
You can only say the same thing so many times before people start getting bored.
You can only say the same thing so many times before people start getting zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I was so bored before the of the piece that I was looking for sharp things to slash my wrists with.

Sadly, the majority of the people are easily pleased/impressed/etc.

weemarky
13.02.2008, 13:03
As I am playing bass in this piece, I think I'm entitled to complain about the bass parts.

If I were conducting, I'd be complaining about the difficulty of motivating said engine room and getting the rest of the band to try and enjoy this boring piece.

You can only say the same thing so many times before people start getting bored.
You can only say the same thing so many times before people start getting bored.
You can only say the same thing so many times before people start getting bored.
You can only say the same thing so many times before people start getting zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I was so bored before the of the piece that I was looking for sharp things to slash my wrists with.

Sadly, the majority of the people are easily pleased/impressed/etc.

Musicians are not robots though! As a conductor of a 3rd Section band you will be expected to say things time and time again! Especially tuning, intonation etc. etc.
As a player in the band if you're bored keep your mind occupied. If you want to be a conductor, look at what your MD does and think. How would you conduct this section? What would you do differently? Keep your mind active! You say you chose to play with a 3rd Section band to gain conducting experience so get used to concentrating for a full 2 hour rehearsal rather than sitting there bored [text removed] going through the motions twice a week.

*edit*
Lets keep this polite please gentlemen.
2MD.

08cbinns
13.02.2008, 14:12
This test piece is absoloutley awfull when you look at the score! Its basically just coppied nd pasted all the way through. Ill give you that the part in the middle when the Solo Cornet, Euph, and Solo Horn have the tune is quite original but apart from that and where the new tune comes in at the end its awfull!!!

08cbinns
13.02.2008, 14:16
heres an interesting point, which of the brass parts has the most rests?!

by this i mean only full bar rests that are grouped in 2 or more

the piece has 328 bars in total

my part has 92 bars rest (1st Trombone)

feels like i have more than that coz a big chunk of those rests are all in 1, from D to H

still nearly a 3rd of the piece where im resting tho!

Im playing the same part but with Whitworth and its soooooo boring. I wish modern composers would compose better parts for trombone players.

mjwarman
13.02.2008, 14:17
Sadly, the majority of the people are easily pleased/impressed/etc.

You're entitled too your opinion and quite frankly you've had it now!! Please can we change the subject back to something that doesn't involve people getting so emotional about the subject that it requires editing by mods, and if were other people, I would stop encouraging him!!! :p No offence meant too anyone, I am enjoying this thread as I have an interest in the piece, not one or two peoples one sided opinions over and over again.

I'm really looking forward to the day as I am being let loose with a cadenza!!! Just listen out for the extremely exentuated vibrato, (nerves) in the first few bars of it, silly idea starting on a bottom C!!!! :p

eanto
13.02.2008, 18:39
Just listen out for the extremely exentuated vibrato, (nerves) in the first few bars of it, silly idea starting on a bottom C!!!! :p

Better that Matt than starting on a top C!!

You'll be fine, I like vibrato anyway:)

mikelyons
13.02.2008, 23:22
You call that a cadenza? I'm still trying to figure out the repeat until you're bored bit!

Musicians are not robots indeed, but don't you think that I know that after 40 years of playing, or maybe you think I have learned nothing in that time? I'd be interested to see what was removed?

BTW, I am always dispassionate, mostly cool and occasionally collected ;-)

joshy
14.02.2008, 01:10
This test piece is absoloutley awfull when you look at the score! Its basically just coppied nd pasted all the way through. Ill give you that the part in the middle when the Solo Cornet, Euph, and Solo Horn have the tune is quite original but apart from that and where the new tune comes in at the end its awfull!!!

What's wrong with repeating? Are you saying that Nyman's work is awful because it repeats sections? This piece is quite different from the test pieces of the last 2 or 3 years (this is only my third contesting year with brass bands) but I personally think it is fantastic. The parts may be boring but have you ever played with a symphony orchestra? It's not unusual for brass sections to take books to read until they play their crotchet parts and then rest for another 200 bars.


I have spent a lot of time studying this score and instead of finding it to be awful I think it is a very challenging work for both the band and conductor. Anyone who thinks they can get away with just playing their part without working on it or just beat away because the ideas are just being repeated will regret it come adjudicating time.

Above all, remember that a brass band is a team. Even if something is boring you should be working on making you're part as perfect as possible so that the band can achieve a good result.

Josh

Roger Thorne
14.02.2008, 06:29
I have spent a lot of time studying this score and instead of finding it to be awful I think it is a very challenging work for both the band and conductor. Anyone who thinks they can get away with just playing their part without working on it or just beat away because the ideas are just being repeated will regret it come adjudicating time.

Above all, remember that a brass band is a team. Even if something is boring you should be working on making you're part as perfect as possible so that the band can achieve a good result.

Well said that man :clap: :clap:

Great first post Josh - Welcome to tMP.

:tup

andywooler
14.02.2008, 07:12
....I think it is a very challenging work for both the band and conductor. Anyone who thinks they can get away with just playing their part without working on it or just beat away because the ideas are just being repeated will regret it come adjudicating time.
Above all, remember that a brass band is a team. Even if something is boring you should be working on making you're part as perfect as possible so that the band can achieve a good result.
JoshI agree with all of that - this is one piece that will actually test the band as a band and not one or two key individuals. But that doesn't make it a great piece of music though!! I personally cannot find anything in this work which makes me want to listen to it again and again - it doesn't grab me like Cloudcatcher did on first hearing for example.
I'm not saying this is not a good work but it's certainly not the brass band classic some of you seem to be hyping it up as. (IMHO of course)

McChambo
14.02.2008, 08:39
So on the Areas CD, why do Black Dyke Band play the opening bars 10 digits slower than marked? Clocked it at a crotchet = 54 (approx). Playing the opening at the correct tempo really sets the piece off a quite a pace.

I just hope the adjudicators enter their respective boxes equipped with metronomes, rather than relying on their memory of a CD recording which is totally inaccurate.

:rolleyes:

Yes, I'm concerned about that opening tempo too. Dotted crotchet = 64 is very different to 52/54, and when it returns at letter T, the recording seems to fold in on itself! I'm not saying that it's rubbish playing though - far from it!

Also on the recording, there seems to be a different sustained chord in the trombones at letter B, compared to what's on the score anyway. Have they added a written 'D' into the 2nd trom part? Or is that on the part, but not the score? Or is it just my ears?

Gorgie boy
14.02.2008, 15:04
Or is it just my ears?

Yea, it's probably your ears!

Only kidding mate!!!!

McChambo
14.02.2008, 16:09
Yea, it's probably your ears!

It's probably just my front brakes. They've started to sound like a french horn section! I really should stop listening to it in the car. I get far too excited in the fast bits, and end up doing at least double the speed limit. It ends up like that headbanging scene out of Wayne's World. I'll end up in court (again).:rolleyes:

mikelyons
14.02.2008, 18:38
What's wrong with repeating? Are you saying that Nyman's work is awful because it repeats sections? This piece is quite different from the test pieces of the last 2 or 3 years (this is only my third contesting year with brass bands) but I personally think it is fantastic. The parts may be boring but have you ever played with a symphony orchestra? It's not unusual for brass sections to take books to read until they play their crotchet parts and then rest for another 200 bars.

Josh

I would not argue that some of Nyman's work is not great (or at least good) but some of it is very, very boring. Once you've got the point of shifting pulses, you don't need to keep having it hammered into your head every time you turn around. It's not that interesting a technique - except as a cure for insomnia.

madandcrazytromboneguy
14.02.2008, 22:44
that bit i mentioned earlier that i liked, where solo trom is 1 of 4 instruments to play a 4bar melody, are you guys using vib on those 4 sets of 4 or are you playing it straight?, its a debate which came up in our last rehearsal, i like it with vib miself but our md suggested it should possibly be played without coz its still imagining what it would sound like played on the moon, personally i think he's been to the moon and back coz he likes to bring it up a lot in rehearsal lol

mikelyons seems to have gone into insults mode with 1 or 2 of his posts, despite mr howe telling everyone to keep this thread civil. yes mike i agree the bass part includes much of the long sustained notes that basses seem to get plenty of, but you get the melody as much as trombones do, hell i aint impressed by the lack of nice trombone playing i was hoping to do, but insted ive gotta play like a fanfare/battle tune style, not much fun on the lip

ive only played and heard spectrum once but i kinda liked it

i stated in a previous post that a 3rd section area test piece should possibly not have FFF and PPP in it coz no band will truely hit either of those 2 dynamics, and in trying to do so, you'll get players dropping off, or accidently making gaps in it coz they can't keep the miniscule sound going, and you'll get some rough blasting when they try to punch out the FFF, but the fact is, p.l.c. has put them in and we've gotta try and do them

i'd much rather play jimmy cook this yr after seeing all 5 pieces announced, but the fact is i aint playing for a 1st section band at the mo, im with a 3rd section band, and im gonna b at the yorkshire area putting in MAXIMUM effort to do everything i can to help huddz brass to stay in the 3rd section and get a top 3 result, which is what i think we require to definately stay in the 3rd section. a tough target, but acheivable, as long as 1 or 2 dont bring in RINGERS!

yes the piece is a bit repetative, but dont most test pieces have 1 of the melody sections repeated in it at some stage?, in my opinion it aint the worst area t.p. ive ever played, it aint the best either by any long shot, but aswell as playing in it, i'll be interested to hear the other bands interpretations of the piece

and 1 last thing, black dyke dont play the piece exactly as written because...................THEY CAN!

the recording dont mean much to them, they just got 1st go at it coz their perc player wrote it, and with them being a top quality champ band, it was logical to have them play it on the area CD, but they would play it how they want, they arent being adjudicated on it are they ;)

Roger Thorne
15.02.2008, 07:32
black dyke dont play the piece exactly as written because...................THEY CAN!

You've completely lost me with that comment Clive!

:-?

mikelyons
15.02.2008, 08:21
mikelyons seems to have gone into insults mode with 1 or 2 of his posts, despite mr howe telling everyone to keep this thread civil.

I think you will find that I have avoided personal insults except when attacked. If you don't poke me I won't bite. If you poke me I'll take your hand (or whatever) off!

I, too, seem to have lost your plot. However you make a point (and miss one) about how Dyke play the piece. The composer is a member of Dyke and was, probably, there at the recording. I assume he was accorded the right to say how he wanted the piece played? Do I have to draw a picture?

m.f.cooper
15.02.2008, 08:45
I know there are technical aspects of this piece a band will have to get right to actually perform this piece to a high standard, but this piece does initially seem the easiest regionals piece we've had in years.

I can just see the results going to the performance where the band did something a little different that caught the adjudicators imagination! It shouldn't be the one the adjuicator liked the most, but rather the band who played it the best that should win. Unfortunately we'll all play it realy well to make ranking us all much too difficult!

(and yes, I'm a bass player who hates the number of G's written! Bored now)

mikelyons
15.02.2008, 10:17
I think there are two main traps for the basses:-

1. Not thumping in on breath changes
2. Remebering to go off the beat after those on-beat crotchets

All the rest is easy. The cornets probably have the most problems to cope with, though the horns will need to be able to play as a unit (with and without flug) and the trombones will have to think (I know! Oxymoron! ;-))
The euphs are like us, really, but with a few more twiddly bits - hardly Earth-shattering!

Other than that, there's not a lot for it. Mostlt, I suspect, it will be down to interpretation on the day and whether your particular adjudicator likes it or not. Another lottery!

ploughboy
15.02.2008, 11:19
I think you are all missing some of the key ingrediants of a good performance, or at the vey least assuming every 3rd section band in the country now has perfect tuning (especially those bottom C's scattered around the parts) and are all playing perfectly together. To assume that the winners will be the band that try the radically different approach to stand out from the crowd, I would like to think the winners in Yorkshire will be the most intune, together, most balanced sound and yes hopefully on top of all that good interpretation.

Mike I know you're bored with it, but are you and your section really that good? I know a few local bass players that are still working hard to get that true section sound with no obvious breathing gaps and in tune delivery every time.

I think it's a cracker of a piece. How may 3rd section bands want to start at that dynamic? want to play semi's over the 6/8 pattern? won't overblow FF never mind FFF? I'm worried either i'm especially picky, my band aren't that good or every other band I here talk about his piece is underestimating it!!

I hope it's the later!

Garry

CubbRep
15.02.2008, 12:56
I'm not syaing that my band is struggling to get to grips with this piece,but there are a lot of ensemble bits that require quite a lot of composure in the quieter passages.Euph and Rep have a lot of duet playing that need to be together.Basses need a lot of control as do many other sections of the band.`Front row cornets,rep and sop have a lot to do(not in the sense of bars played)
Being newbies in the 3rd section we will give it our best shot and hopefully come in the top half come results time.
Control,control,control.That seems to be the key.As for some of the adverse comments about the piece,I am of the opinion that in the lower sections,most remarks centre on tuning,intonation and balance.PLC and the selection comittee know what they are doing.This has surely got to be the one and only time that we will get a test that incorporates all three.As far as I'm concerned a test piece does not have to be technical to produce a good result.
Mike at first I agree that it was boring,but it has grown on me and my band.We want to try and produce the the right mix and do well.It will take an exceptional band to produce a good balanced sound,especially in a lower section.

2nd trom virtuoso
15.02.2008, 14:53
I'm not syaing that my band is struggling to get to grips with this piece,but there are a lot of ensemble bits that require quite a lot of composure in the quieter passages.Euph and Rep have a lot of duet playing that need to be together.Basses need a lot of control as do many other sections of the band.`Front row cornets,rep and sop have a lot to do(not in the sense of bars played)
Being newbies in the 3rd section we will give it our best shot and hopefully come in the top half come results time.
Control,control,control.That seems to be the key.As for some of the adverse comments about the piece,I am of the opinion that in the lower sections,most remarks centre on tuning,intonation and balance.PLC and the selection comittee know what they are doing.This has surely got to be the one and only time that we will get a test that incorporates all three.As far as I'm concerned a test piece does not have to be technical to produce a good result.
Mike at first I agree that it was boring,but it has grown on me and my band.We want to try and produce the the right mix and do well.It will take an exceptional band to produce a good balanced sound,especially in a lower section.

I agree with that - having played it, although on the face of it - looks technically simply, it is hard to play with balance and dynamic wise even for a 1st section+ band.
I think what with nerves on the day etc, alot of 3rd section bands are really going to struggle to get those factors right.

It will be the ones that take everything down a notch and play to their capabilities that will go away with the plaudits and a good result, not the ones going for blastioso

CubbRep
15.02.2008, 17:21
I agree with that - having played it, although on the face of it - looks technically simply, it is hard to play with balance and dynamic wise even for a 1st section+ band.
I think what with nerves on the day etc, alot of 3rd section bands are really going to struggle to get those factors right.

It will be the ones that take everything down a notch and play to their capabilities that will go away with the plaudits and a good result, not the ones going for blastioso

Thanks for that Matt
I Know that there are some really good 3rd section bands in all Areas.But as I have said before,it will take a well balanced and controlled band that will win,whether they take it down a notch or not.Most bands have got to remember that tempo markings are only a guide(within reason)M.D's have the job of interpreting the piece,so bands have to go with that,come hell or high water.
At the end of the day it will be the bands that have control as mentioned above.Good luck to all bands taking part in this National comp in all areas.:clap:

mikelyons
15.02.2008, 17:49
I think you are all missing some of the key ingredients of a good performance,

I have to say this, I can't stop myself...

Including a good piece of music!

I agree with everything you say guys, but maybe I'm in cloud cuckoo land in expecting MDs and bands to be doing their best, within the limitations of their section's and their band's general ability without actually having to tell them that's what they should be doing. It's the limitations of the music chosen yet again by the selection panel that bothers me.

I feel that, particularly in the lower sections, bands should not have to cope with lack of motivation brought about by having dull and uninteresting music.

Even the slow section does not challenge bands' ability to play in tune very much. How many of these are real dissonances and how many are mistakes, BTW. That's another argument that I have heard whispers of - yet again!

weemarky
15.02.2008, 18:00
Even the slow section does not challenge bands' ability to play in tune very much. How many of these are real dissonances and how many are mistakes, BTW. That's another argument that I have heard whispers of - yet again!

Sorry but how can an experienced musician such as yourself be so narrowminded? I am by no means claiming that this is a work of monumental greatness but it is a good piece of writing in my opinion. I know you dont like it and find it boring and not challenging but questioning the ability of the composer?!?!?!? Surely you must be joking?

And as for the slow section not challenging bands to play in tune, can you play a bottom C perfectly in tune whilst changing dynamic from piano to forte in a bar? I struggle to keep it in tune and I get paid to play music for a living! I'm sure most 3rd Section back row players struggle aswel!

joshy
15.02.2008, 18:30
I have to say this, I can't stop myself...

Including a good piece of music!



Maybe you should have... I have to agree with weemarky, why are you being so close minded? If you don't like it fine, but claiming it isn't a good piece of music simply because you don't understand it does not show you in a good light. Any musician should be open to new things, if they really don't like them then fine, but just because you don't personally like it doesn't mean that you should slag it off. There are plenty of pieces I don't like but I don't make uncalled for remarks like the one I have quoted.

I'm looking forward to hearing your band on the 9th to see if you fall in to some of the traps that you didn't list in your previous posts (I can think of 3 off the top of my head that weren't listed and are much more dangerous).

Josh

joshy
15.02.2008, 18:40
Sorry, forgot to add this.

As far as mistakes go, I have only noticed one (possibly) and it is in the second trombone part when the cornets have their tone cluster (C, B, A) towards the end. I have adjusted the part so the second trombone has a B natural against the solo trombones C to match the solo bench. Even this is personal judgement, it doesn't sound wrong. If you have heard whispers of mistakes mikelyons maybe you could enlighten us?

Josh

Al
15.02.2008, 20:06
I understand. I do!

I have to say this, I can't stop myself...

I feel that, particularly in the lower sections, bands should not have to cope with lack of motivation brought about by having dull and uninteresting music.



Earlier on in this thread I documented my disgust at this piece of music on a number of occasions eg:


As a bass, my first impression is that this piece is utter tedium. Maybe as the weeks go I will start to hear other parts and enjoy listening to the piece but it is going to be very difficult to muster up any enthusiasm especially for 3 or 4+ rehearsals a week leading up to the contest.

I really do feel like dropping out now :(

I am really enjoying band rehearsals now and can't get enough of the piece.

See you in Blackpool Mike!

mikelyons
15.02.2008, 22:58
OK guys, I really didn't want to have to trot this out, but as a music teacher, experienced in most genres of music over a period of more than 25 years, chaps, I think I have enough experience from a purely pedagogic point of view to be able to offer a judgement on the quality of a piece of music. As a player of many kinds of music from BB to orchestral over 40 years I also have some experience of playing on which to draw.

As a published composer of music I also have some knowledge of both the technical and musical demands made by this piece and, simply, I find it wanting in many areas.

The mods will tell you I don't open my mouth without thinking things through carefully, which I suspect is one of the reasons I have not yet been censured.

I understand quite well the techniques being used, including copy and paste ;-) and have used them in my own pieces as well as analysed the works of a number of 'great' composers. I have a very wide range of experience and knowledge and I have to say you are beginning to **** me off (Sorry mods) by calling my knowledge and experience into doubt. You are becoming tiresome.

Weemarky, I don't know how you can fail to be in tune at any time. Do your ears not work in conjunction with your mouth then? (Sorry mods)

Ah, the rashness of the young!

joshy
16.02.2008, 00:10
Ah the arrogance of the old! I am also a music teacher and while I may not have the amount of experience that you do I can also comment on the technical aspects of this piece. I conducted this piece at my bands rehearsal tonight and stand by my opinion that this is a stern test for bands and a good piece of music, both to play and listen to. If you disagree then fine but please could we stick to talking about the playing aspects of the piece rather than making snide comments?

I, as well as weemarky, have issues when changing from extreme dynamic to extreme dynamic and my ears are certainly in perfect working order. In fact I will be using them at the regionals to see if your technique is as flawless as you seem to be implying.

Apologies to the mods if this is escalating things, I know that I have only posted on this topic so far, I am just curious to see how other bands are finding the piece from a technical point of view rather than whether thay think the test piece should in fact be something different.

Josh

Roger Thorne
16.02.2008, 08:22
Come on folks, this is all beginning to get a bit heated. We've all got our opinions on the music and we are all allowed to express those opinions freely, but ideally, without personal insults and attacks on each other.

;)

Sandy Smith
16.02.2008, 09:03
Yet again the basses have zip to play - ok, so we'll need to plan breathing (but what's new about that?) Yes we'll have to count (ditto) but it really is trite and banal music. It is even boring to listen to (after the 65th time of hearing the cornets muck up their really rather simple parts yet again while we play a (very) long g (c for the BBbs.)

The reason I don't like spectrum is because it's pretentious, contrived and self-conscious and is less than Vinter's best music as a result. The reason I don't like DSOTM is because it too, in its way, is self-conscious and contrived - and unlike the Vinter is quite un-subtle and to my ear unskillful. It's basically the same uninspired and unprepossessing motif repeated again, and again, and again...

I've always found it rather rash to make a judgement of quality and suitability of any test piece before the final weeks of preparation have taken place.

To allow your personal opinion of your own individual part to colour your overall opinion of the quality of the composition quite so much as Mr.Lyons has done seems at best narrow minded and at worst naive.

Mr. Lyons - although you seem to have already made your mind up about the quality of the music please don't let your negativity infect your fellow band members,some of whom may have less entrenched views.
To denigrate their efforts to play the piece on a public forum such as this two or three weeks prior to the contest betrays a lack of professionalism.
I would imagine it does little for team spirit and morale either.

To Weemarky and Josh - how refreshing to hear some real enthusiasm for what we are all involved in.Hope you continue to enjoy the preparation for and the contest itself.

There is plenty of time to being old,bitter,twisted and cynical about it all !

cookie101880
16.02.2008, 10:42
Having played this piece recently with Oldham and having a good win a Preston I will advise most people that it's not as easy as it seems. To the people that complain on this thread that it's too easy, well, i'm going to have lots of pleasure reading the rets about how your bands did. God help ya if your band doesn't do well cause you've rally put yorself in the firing line!!!!

2nd man down
16.02.2008, 10:45
To Weemarky and Josh - how refreshing to hear some real enthusiasm for what we are all involved in.Hope you continue to enjoy the preparation for and the contest itself.


Well said. :clap:

Al
16.02.2008, 11:43
I'd agree.

But I think mikelyons is well entitled to his opinion which he has backed up. I am sure he will not be short of conversation in the bar after his band has played!

It is good to see that like some sort of monstrous musical modern art, the piece is stirring up a bit of feeling and debate.

Personally, I am getting to like it and so are the rest of our band.

mikelyons
16.02.2008, 12:07
Mr. Lyons - ... please don't let your negativity infect your fellow band members,some of whom may have less entrenched views.
To denigrate their efforts to play the piece on a public forum such as this two or three weeks prior to the contest betrays a lack of professionalism.
I would imagine it does little for team spirit and morale either.

With all due respect, Mr Smith (if you prefer that form of address) I don't believe I have done either of these things. I am quite sure that many of the members of my band are well able to perform this piece already - after only having looked at it twice. The difficulty will be in not letting nerves spoil an otherwise good performance on the day - something that affects many youngsters and less confident players. I have not denigrated or even mentioned my band (or any other band for that matter), but only made a general comment on some of the limitations of third section bands. I haven't made any personal comments until certain people decided to make it personal.

Just because I don't think the music itself is up to much does not mean that I won't play it to the best of my ability - as will the rest of the band - and, I'm sure, all the other bands in the section. However, the test of which bands are in the prizes, will, I feel, come down solely to whether the adjudicator likes the interpretation of a particular conductor on the day. This makes the whole thing a bit of a lottery.

I have to take issue with you on the matter of the individual part. Comments from other individuals on this thread have indicated to me that more than the basses have uninteresting parts. I have also studied the score myself as I am helping with rehearsals and I find the scoring quite limited in many ways. I'm not talking about my value judgement about the piece just from my view as a bass player, but as a teacher of GSCE and A Level composition with a proven track record of success over 20 years. I do not denigrate the bands. What I'm basically saying is that they deserve better!

Mesmerist
16.02.2008, 12:45
I think it's a cracker of a piece. How may 3rd section bands want to start at that dynamic? want to play semi's over the 6/8 pattern? won't overblow FF never mind FFF? I'm worried either i'm especially picky, my band aren't that good or every other band I here talk about his piece is underestimating it!!

I hope it's the later!

Garry

I am with you Gary in being a bit worried about my band struggling and everyone else finding it so easy? Yes technically no one has got real difficulties but putting it all together and in tune is proving fairly testing...and I `m not knocking my band as they are real troopers always there and always working. Getting quite nervous as we need a top 3 placing for promotion and I don`t want a lottery in the results as some are saying it may be...:frown:

mikelyons
16.02.2008, 13:20
I am with you Gary in being a bit worried about my band struggling and everyone else finding it so easy? Yes technically no one has got real difficulties but putting it all together and in tune is proving fairly testing...and I `m not knocking my band as they are real troopers always there and always working. Getting quite nervous as we need a top 3 placing for promotion and I don`t want a lottery in the results as some are saying it may be...:frown:
Don't get nervous! You can only do your best. I agree with you about fitting the jigsaw together, but then you must have confidence in your mates in your band (as I do in mine) and, as Mr. Smith pointed out, get stuck into the teamwork.:-)

PurpleHaze
16.02.2008, 13:31
We've always been told to keep our opinions about the test piece to ourselves until after the contest, because like it or not, this is the piece we will have to practice, play repeatedly and work hard on. If we immediately judge the piece and view it in a negative light, this is likely to interfere with how the band plays it, especially if it causes conflict or sways others opinions. Who wants to sit in a rehersal room with grumbling and a negative attitude? Kills the enthusiasm a bit....
Strangely enough, i have liked every single piece i've played at the areas. I doubt this has little to do with the piece, but more the fact that i reserved judgement and then learned to love what i was working on. I now look back to previous years and think "Why the heck did i like that piece so much compared to the one we have this year." Which again, shows that it probably isn't the piece i enjoy the most but the fact that the band are all in it together, stiving to play the piece the best that we can and the whole contest experience as a whole. No-one needs to know if you hate the piece you're playing :P If you can get a good placing, or even win, with a piece you really don't like, imagine what you could do with one you enjoy.

joshy
16.02.2008, 13:39
It's definitely true that putting the parts together is the main challenge on this piece. When I was at the rehearsal yesterday I was actually surprised how many things were going on at once in the score, even after studying it for while it took me by surprise. I treated the rehearsal a bit more like a 'mixing session', because all the parts were there I spent the time getting individual parts at the dynamic I wanted a maybe with a bit more of an accent etc... A lot of this test piece is down to the conductors on the day but I also realised how important it is for the players to have their reserves ready towards the end. If everyone spends their lip on the first two thirds of the piece then there will be no way to pull off the 'big finish'. Something I have been working on as a player is making sure that I can handle the jumps in range (i.e. playing middle to lower register for most of the piece and then a FFF top C at the end) and have some reserves so that on the day I can give an extra 10%-15% for the contest.

On mikelyons 'whispers' about mistakes in the score, has anyone spotted any? I have only seen the one that I mentioned in a previous post (and that might not be a mistake).

Josh

ploughboy
16.02.2008, 15:10
I am with you Gary in being a bit worried about my band struggling and everyone else finding it so easy? Yes technically no one has got real difficulties but putting it all together and in tune is proving fairly testing...and I `m not knocking my band as they are real troopers always there and always working. Getting quite nervous as we need a top 3 placing for promotion and I don`t want a lottery in the results as some are saying it may be...:frown:

I don't think it will be a lottery, no 3rd section band will play the piece perfectly, so it will/should never come down to a touch of fate! Every band will suffer somewhere along the line, and some more than others, some of it may be nerves etc, but I think there wil be plenty available for the adjudicators to sort the placings out without resorting to "ooh, I like his gong technique!"

andyh
16.02.2008, 21:06
Can we not please put an end to adverse comments about DSOM?

At the end of the day, PLC is one of us; our colleague and co-player. He may
even be monitoring this thread. I'm ashamed that any one of us should see
fit to trash his contribution to a tradition under so much threat of disappearing.

We should instead be grateful that someone somewhere is doing something to
perpetuate the brass band movement.

Andy

Al
16.02.2008, 21:32
I think a careful read through this thread would make PLC quite proud of Dark Side of the Moon. It has certainly hit a few chords with people and the piece is going to be remembered more than most, and for many years.

Any brass band person has to have got used to criticism, its the name of the contesting game.

I've certainly gone from detesting the piece to quite enjoying it and I'm really looking forward to March.

Anyway, I don't think this would be a proper forum if only 'nice' things were said all the time.

emziesonic
16.02.2008, 21:40
Exactly some people will love it, some will hate it, but that does'nt mean its a bad or rubbish piece, people just have different taste in music. Its not a reason to slate it.

Anno Draconis
16.02.2008, 22:40
Can we not please put an end to adverse comments about DSOM?

At the end of the day, PLC is one of us; our colleague and co-player. He may
even be monitoring this thread. I'm ashamed that any one of us should see
fit to trash his contribution to a tradition under so much threat of disappearing.

We should instead be grateful that someone somewhere is doing something to
perpetuate the brass band movement.

Andy

Er, no. I might not agree with Mike Lyons about this (I actually think it's one of the most enjoyable lower section pieces of recent years), but I'll defend his right to state his opinion with my dying breath. Are we now not allowed to criticise a piece of music simply because it's written by a fellow bandsman?

Robhibberd29
16.02.2008, 22:47
We should instead be grateful that someone somewhere is doing something to
perpetuate the brass band movement.

Andy

Are we not all doing that by actually playing in brass bands and discussing matters arising in a diplomatic way?

It's a brass band movement not a brass band dictatorship! Some people seem to forget that point. Everyone's opinion is equal.

ploughboy
16.02.2008, 23:06
I defend my right to be a dictator - ask any of my band!!!

Robhibberd29
16.02.2008, 23:17
I defend my right to be a dictator - ask any of my band!!!

Well what you do with your band is your business Gary! If I do ask your band are they allowed to answer?? :rolleyes:

2nd man down
16.02.2008, 23:40
Well what you do with your band is your business Gary! If I do ask your band are they allowed to answer?? :rolleyes:

Hmmm...not sure, I'll have to ask him. :rolleyes:




Exactly some people will love it, some will hate it, but that does'nt mean its a bad or rubbish piece, people just have different taste in music. Its not a reason to slate it.

Dark side of the Moon, The Marmite of Brass band Test Pieces. :biggrin:

Robhibberd29
16.02.2008, 23:45
Dark side of the Moon, The Marmite of Brass band Test Pieces. :biggrin:

:clap: Excellent analogy LOL!

CubbRep
16.02.2008, 23:56
:clap: Excellent analogy LOL!

I love it.And marmite to boot.Only because I have plenty to do,when I'm not resting.By the way Rob,where have you been?I have not seen any posts from earlier today.DSOTM is a nice piece that will be played again at many comps I am sure.Well done PLC:clap:

Robhibberd29
16.02.2008, 23:59
.By the way Rob,where have you been?I have not seen any posts from earlier today.

I have been posting Dick but you won't see them...that's another story!

I love Dark Side of the Moon, a very charismatic piece I think.

CubbRep
17.02.2008, 00:02
I have been posting Dick but you won't see them...that's another story!
I love Dark Side of the Moon, a very charismatic piece I think.

Ok,see you later today if you're coming down.:tup

Robhibberd29
17.02.2008, 00:05
Ok,see you later today if you're coming down.:tup

Chances are. Can you bring DSOTM for us to have a blow at in rehearsal he he :-)

lynchie
19.02.2008, 00:28
As much as the piece is nice to listen to, I haven't been able to get excited about it as a test piece. I know the adjudicators at this level always end up talking about balance and tuning, but that's essentially all there is in my part.

Also, I'm a bit annoyed at how terrible some of the page turns are. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before, but having page turns in the middle of passages is ridiculous, and surely fairly basic proof reading? Whatever the legality, I'm fairly sure we'll be photocopying parts so we can cut them up into something more usable.

Simon_Horn
19.02.2008, 00:55
I wonder how many bands are going to blast the hell out of this piece?

Roger Thorne
19.02.2008, 07:11
. . . having page turns in the middle of passages is ridiculous,

That is my only criticism of this publication. And considering how many bars rest each section have, it wouldn't have taken much effort to have corrected this at proof reading stage. I'm sure a lot of bands will have eliminated this problem come contest day though.


I wonder how many bands are going to blast the hell out of this piece?

Pesonally, I don't think there will be many. In fact I would hazard a guess that you will probably get a reversed effect, in that bands won't be playing the 'big' dynamics purely because of the stamia required to get to the end of the piece. Unfortunately this could lead to bands not making enough difference between the more subtle dynamics, but I'm sure most MD's worth their salt will have this issue flagged and will be working hard to overcome it.

;)

mikelyons
19.02.2008, 13:39
I agree with Roger. Especially if a band is under full numbers - as some are - it is going to be difficult to sustain the notes to their full duration at the loudest volumes. This will also, perhaps, result in less experienced bands blowing so hard that their tuning suffers.

Poor/difficult page turns in this day and age is unforgivable. Apart from something like the Eb bass parts where there isn't really much in the way of rests most other parts should be amenable to turning in rests - There's plenty of wasted space on the last page of the BBb part, for example, that might have allowed better page turns earlier on.

ploughboy
19.02.2008, 16:32
In fact I would hazard a guess that you will probably get a reversed effect, in that bands won't be playing the 'big' dynamics purely because of the stamia required to get to the end of the piece. Unfortunately this could lead to bands not making enough difference between the more subtle dynamics, but I'm sure most MD's worth their salt will have this issue flagged and will be working hard to overcome it.



Nope - All guns blazing! ;-)

Mesmerist
19.02.2008, 22:44
I see that tmp predictions have us up in the top 4 so no pressure then!
Wouldn`t it be lovely if the predictions were 100% accurate and results were decided by bandspeople everywhere...

CaharleyFarley
20.02.2008, 01:36
I just think that mikelyons stirred the pot - and everyone reacted accordingly.....

mikelyons
20.02.2008, 22:38
I just think that mikelyons stirred the pot - and everyone reacted accordingly.....

If you would like to explain further? - I'm not particularly interested in continuing those particular debates, though - for now. Be warned though, if you are going to resort to name calling at this stage in the game, I'm going to utterly ignore you.

dyl
20.02.2008, 22:40
If you would like to explain further?
Actually, we'd rather he not. Let's stick to discussing the test-piece shall we, and keep individual arguments out of it? Thanks.

mikelyons
20.02.2008, 22:49
OK, I've not gone senile.

In the bass part in the bit that's nicked from Jurassic Park (I think, it could be the Indiana Jones bit - no hang on, this is from Ravel's Bolero!) After R.

There are three quaver grace notes printed. Should we treat these as a triplet, or as three quavers? The effect is quite different as the stress in the group and the placing of the played notes in the bar changes.

Has anyone else thought of this? If PLC used Finale or Sibelius, there are limitations as to what you can actually write as grace notes. I know I've occasionally been lazy and missed out the little triplet 3 that would indicate a triplet - although sometimes Sibelius itself has chewed it up (I once found one of these triplet 3s hiding timidly under a fermata 5 bars away from where I'd inserted it!)

(And Beethoven's 5th? Similar problem with the first three notes. It caused all kinds of controversy in the 20th Century as to how it ought to be played. I'm sure Beethoven couldn't have cared less - he'd been dead two hundred years by then! :rolleyes: )

joshy
21.02.2008, 14:54
In our rehearsals we have been treating them as crush notes 'a la' the regionals recording. I think either quavers or triples would be acceptable, it just depends on what the conductor wants. Like I said we are 'crushing' them as our MD thinks it works well that way.