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steve butler
02.09.2007, 18:24
Hi, hoping someone may be able to help me with putting a value on a "collectors item" G Trom and how best to sell it. It would be ideal to find a buyer on tmp of course.

The engraving on the bell reads;
Artist's Perfected
Excelsior Sonorcus
Class A
Hawkes and Son
Denmark Street
Piccadilly Circus
LONDON
48439

I think its a G and D (but I'm not too clever with troms)
The instrument belonged to my dad who bought it off a guy called Norman Beattie back in the 60's. Its in good condition but hasn't been played for years, any advice will be gratefully recieved.

STUART HAIGH
02.09.2007, 19:40
Hi, hoping someone may be able to help me with putting a value on a "collectors item" G Trom and how best to sell it. It would be ideal to find a buyer on tmp of course.

The engraving on the bell reads;
Artist's Perfected
Excelsior Sonorcus
Class A
Hawkes and Son
Denmark Street
Piccadilly Circus
LONDON
48439

I think its a G and D (but I'm not too clever with troms)
The instrument belonged to my dad who bought it off a guy called Norman Beattie back in the 60's. Its in good condition but hasn't been played for years, any advice will be gratefully recieved.

Hello Steve,I have just spoke to Derek Roebuck,who played the G trombone at ferrodo and Brighouse and he says that this instrument will be a straight G .Brighouse bought a G and D for him in the late sixties but he preferred the sound of the straight G.The bad news is that when the G was replaced with the b flat and f, the G s were selling at a fiver, instrument dealers were buying them and converting them into sackbutts.Derek has a collection of G troms and says he has never paid more than fifty quid for one, so don t give up the day job yet!

steve butler
02.09.2007, 19:46
B***er, took it to a car boot today (just to try and attract punters to my other tat) and turned down an offer of 70!!!
Should I have snapped his hand off then?

Ah well, must start those sackutt lessons I've always fancied.

STUART HAIGH
02.09.2007, 19:51
B***er, took it to a car boot today (just to try and attract punters to my other tat) and turned down an offer of 70!!!
Should I have snapped his hand off then?

Ah well, must start those sackutt lessons I've always fancied.

Yes get rid of it,find this man and get his 70 quid!

steve butler
02.09.2007, 20:03
Cheers Stuart - and thanks for ringing Derek.
Actually maybe car boots are a good idea - this guy was oviously a dealer of some sort, that did'nt know much about brass instruments and thought he could make a killing on this pristine looking trombone mmmmmmmmmmm

I think my concience could handle that

STUART HAIGH
02.09.2007, 21:22
Cheers Stuart - and thanks for ringing Derek.
Actually maybe car boots are a good idea - this guy was oviously a dealer of some sort, that did'nt know much about brass instruments and thought he could make a killing on this pristine looking trombone mmmmmmmmmmm

I think my concience could handle that

I ts a shame these noble instruments were sent to the great musical scrapyard, in the wrong hands they sounded awful, but in the right hands, awesome.There was no need for them to be replaced, as the GD was used in millitary bands and classical groups for years after the modern day version appeared.I ts like all the things you buy these days,not built to last more than a few years.. I bet your G is still going strong in another 80 years..I wish I could play one I d have it for 70 quid !

steve butler
02.09.2007, 22:07
Funnily enough I own an 80 year old Boosey & Co EEb Sousaphone with a 26 inch bell which is an amazing instrument. Big big sound and the valves are a dream. They certainly dont make em like that anymore!!

Aussie Tuba
02.09.2007, 22:52
I inherited a Boosey and co Euphonium and had it virtually rebuilt has a great sound, wouldn't part with it for quids

PeterBale
03.09.2007, 00:25
I wouldn't rush to get rid of it too cheaply, as there is a market for good quality G trombones. My dad's G has done him sterling service, particularly when play for BierKeller evenings. (Just to clarify, if it is a G/D then it will have a thumb valve attachment)

Hells Bones
03.09.2007, 01:28
Mr Butler, got rid of it yet?

MoominDave
03.09.2007, 10:53
If it is a G/D (with a thumb valve), I will buy it. I have been looking for one for a long time.
On the other hand, if it is a straight G, I already have two of those...

Frosty
03.09.2007, 16:09
If it's a G/D trombone stick it on ebay. There was one for sale on there a couple of months ago. I think it sold for nearly 400.

Frosty

MoominDave
03.09.2007, 16:16
Or sell it to me for 400 right now...

steve butler
03.09.2007, 19:17
Wow, now I'm confused, yes it has a thumb valve (needs a little repair work). Have not got a case I'm afraid as that fell apart. Instrument in good nick though. Could send a photo if that would help.

STUART HAIGH
03.09.2007, 19:37
Or sell it to me for 400 right now...

Get rid for 400 quid... thats 2 weeks in the sun all free!

MoominDave
04.09.2007, 10:19
I'll send you a PM with my contact details, Steve.

iancwilx
04.09.2007, 13:19
Hello Steve,I have just spoke to Derek Roebuck,who played the G trombone at ferrodo and Brighouse and he says that this instrument will be a straight G .Brighouse bought a G and D for him in the late sixties but he preferred the sound of the straight G.The bad news is that when the G was replaced with the b flat and f, the G s were selling at a fiver, instrument dealers were buying them and converting them into sackbutts.Derek has a collection of G troms and says he has never paid more than fifty quid for one, so don t give up the day job yet!

I seem to recall Derek getting the G/D Bass Bone during my brief flirtation with B&R in the 1960's.
I remember it being a monster with a double slide, but Derek, being a big strong lad had no bother wielding it !
I could be wrong here, but I think he used it to good effect one year at the RAH massed bands concert in the 12/8 of "Le Preludes" - awesome.
It might have been the "Meistersingers" year.
All this could be blurred by the mists of time and a surfeit of beer over the years !!
- Wilkie

MoominDave
04.09.2007, 13:25
A double slide G/D? Sounds unlikely! Maybe it was a contrabass of some sort?

Frosty
04.09.2007, 13:57
The G/D that Derek would have played at Brighouse was still there when I joined them in 1987.It only had a normal G trombone slide, and was great to play. Their other band instument was a King Duo Gravis Silversonic. Another great instrument that you don't really see used too often these days.

STUART HAIGH
04.09.2007, 15:44
I seem to recall Derek getting the G/D Bass Bone during my brief flirtation with B&R in the 1960's.
I remember it being a monster with a double slide, but Derek, being a big strong lad had no bother wielding it !
I could be wrong here, but I think he used it to good effect one year at the RAH massed bands concert in the 12/8 of "Le Preludes" - awesome.
It might have been the "Meistersingers" year.
All this could be blurred by the mists of time and a surfeit of beer over the years !!
- Wilkie

Ihave spoke to Derek again and he has confirmed that he played the straight G TROM when Brighouse won the nationals on meistersingers in 1968,they won it again the following year on High Peak but this time he was on the GD, he didn t like the sound as much as the straight G ( He played a high pitch straight G with the tuning slide hanging out) .. but what a sound, all the vinter pieces were written for G trom, but as the test pieces became harder he had to use the GD. Derek still plays his G and refuses to change, he is quite right when he says that there is no other sound like it !

Bass Trumpet
04.09.2007, 15:55
A double slide G/D? Sounds unlikely! Maybe it was a contrabass of some sort?

Might be referring to the optional C slide that came with some of the later ones. It would attach to the D section converting it to a G/C, so the player could get the low Ab not available on the G/D. I think these are quite rare to find now. Mine is in great condition and I've used it a couple of times when moonlighting on bass trombone for Crystal Palace.

STUART HAIGH
04.09.2007, 18:23
The G/D that Derek would have played at Brighouse was still there when I joined them in 1987.It only had a normal G trombone slide, and was great to play. Their other band instument was a King Duo Gravis Silversonic. Another great instrument that you don't really see used too often these days.


I think you and Derek would have some very interesting conversations about the Bass Trombone,he was regarded as the finest exponent of the G TROM,By the great Walter Hargreaves and Trevour Walmsley amongst others. He can only be described as a living legend, anyone who heard him in action will agree with this. p.s He was very surprised when I told him that you had played his old G at Brighouse, he wants to know why you don t play a GD yourself

iancwilx
04.09.2007, 21:13
He was regarded as the finest exponent of the G TROM,By the great Walter Hargreaves and Trevour Walmsley.
He can only be described as a living legend
They don't come any more qualified than those two.
The were both great inspirations in my banding life and I was priviliged to play under them.
Derek was certainly the master of the noble beast, though my old mate Ian Copland was also a pretty nifty "G" slide shifter !
Slightly off topic, didn't Bob Davidson (B&R Euph) play on a "G" trom mouthpiece ?
- Wilkie

STUART HAIGH
05.09.2007, 00:06
They don't come any more qualified than those two.
The were both great inspirations in my banding life and I was priviliged to play under them.
Derek was certainly the master of the noble beast, though my old mate Ian Copland was also a pretty nifty "G" slide shifter !
Slightly off topic, didn't Bob Davidson (B&R Euph) play on a "G" trom mouthpiece ?
- Wilkie

Yes,you are right,Ian Copland was also a great G trom player,others that come to mind are, Joe Moors,Arnold Hall and Ken Sarsby, who took Dereks place at Brighouse while he was ill, in fact Ken played in the nationals with Brighouse on the GD.I am only 48 yrs old,but I have several recordings of these artists and can honestly say that all the old test pieces sound a lot better when a G trom was used, its a pity its been scrapped, I hope some of our younger trombonists take up the G challenge, I d love to hear one live again.

Bayerd
05.09.2007, 00:38
Yes,you are right,Ian Copland was also a great G trom player,others that come to mind are, Joe Moors,Arnold Hall and Ken Sarsby, who took Dereks place at Brighouse while he was ill, in fact Ken played in the nationals with Brighouse on the GD.I am only 48 yrs old,but I have several recordings of these artists and can honestly say that all the old test pieces sound a lot better when a G trom was used, its a pity its been scrapped, I hope some of our younger trombonists take up the G challenge, I d love to hear one live again.

I also have a G trom, much as I'd like to use it for certain band playing, the bore on mine is quite a bit smaller than the modern tenor, which means that it is very difficult to get the thing to blend in with the section and sound of it to work with the band as a whole. Maybe it's time Rath came up with a modern day equivalent? (tongue firmly placed within cheek).

Frosty
05.09.2007, 05:29
I'd love to meet up with Derek and talk to him about the G trombone. He really was a fantastic player. I think the G trombone has a fantastic sound.I used one at the request of Elgar Howarth when I was at Grimethorpe for one of the Cds in the History of Brass Band Music.I think it would be the Early Years recording.

MoominDave
05.09.2007, 10:26
I also have a G trom, much as I'd like to use it for certain band playing, the bore on mine is quite a bit smaller than the modern tenor, which means that it is very difficult to get the thing to blend in with the section and sound of it to work with the band as a whole. Maybe it's time Rath came up with a modern day equivalent? (tongue firmly placed within cheek).

You say that... But Chris Stearn (pro bass trombone in Scotland, and one of Rath's main men in the testing and development loop) did hint some time back that Rath were looking at producing an up-to-date version of the G as a special for the discerning gentle(wo)man who knows what they want.

I don't know whether this would be a replica of the old-style narrow-bore models, or something that could be successfully played under a couple of 88Hs (I suspect the former), but it does sound intriguing.

Another point is that (This is what I have always heard, anyhow), the G/Ds were of a larger bore than the equivalent straight Gs, as they were primarily intended for orchestral playing. I shall be very interested to see how the bore on this instrument (which dates from the early 20s) compares with the bore on my 1930 straight G, made by the same company, and stamped with the same model name. I think a G/D ought to sit more happily at the bottom of a modern section than a G in any case.

Bayerd
05.09.2007, 16:54
You say that... But Chris Stearn (pro bass trombone in Scotland, and one of Rath's main men in the testing and development loop) did hint some time back that Rath were looking at producing an up-to-date version of the G as a special for the discerning gentle(wo)man who knows what they want.

I don't know whether this would be a replica of the old-style narrow-bore models, or something that could be successfully played under a couple of 88Hs (I suspect the former), but it does sound intriguing.

Another point is that (This is what I have always heard, anyhow), the G/Ds were of a larger bore than the equivalent straight Gs, as they were primarily intended for orchestral playing. I shall be very interested to see how the bore on this instrument (which dates from the early 20s) compares with the bore on my 1930 straight G, made by the same company, and stamped with the same model name. I think a G/D ought to sit more happily at the bottom of a modern section than a G in any case.

The bore is somewhere between a modern medium and large bore tenor, which you could probably make work. A good example of a G/D fetches about 500-600 these days. I'd get one if I had th cash.....................

Bass Trumpet
05.09.2007, 17:41
I think a G/D ought to sit more happily at the bottom of a modern section than a G in any case.

Yes, you're right. The G/D I think was intended for orchestral use and is a little bigger. I have used mine alongside a couple of modern tenors and it works fine.

MoominDave
05.09.2007, 18:34
As G/Ds were made originally for the orchestral market, hopeully even this instrument (which the serial number dates to 1922-5) will be in low pitch. When it's in proper playing order, I shall take it along to Kidlington; I think it will sit quite nicely with our tenor players' "old-fashioned" approach to the fortissimos!

On the subject of the price, the last two I bid on on eBay (both were allegedly in excellent condition) eventually went for 420 and 620 respectively. I missed the one Frosty referred to that went by recently for less than 400. So there is quite a bit of variability in the prices; the higher figure I mention is the most I have ever heard of anyone paying for one by some way.

STUART HAIGH
05.09.2007, 20:06
I'd love to meet up with Derek and talk to him about the G trombone. He really was a fantastic player. I think the G trombone has a fantastic sound.I used one at the request of Elgar Howarth when I was at Grimethorpe for one of the Cds in the History of Brass Band Music.I think it would be the Early Years recording.

What better praise can the G trom get than FROSTY S opinion, he is the first leading, modern bass trombone player that I have heard of that didn t dismiss this instrument as a musical joke. I Must buy the Grimethorpe C.D with Frosty on GD, It will be a good christmas present for Derek.Lets have some more G Trommers.

Spanky Rear
05.09.2007, 20:22
I think that Edward Solomon Webmaster on the BTS site has a G/D Bass Trombone.He would probably be able to answer any queries with some authority as he still plays his where he feels it appropriate.
Spanky

Hells Bones
05.09.2007, 20:23
I'd happily play G if I got the chance! Problem is they are rare enough and my budget doesn't include 400+ trombones :(

Bass Trumpet
05.09.2007, 20:38
What better praise can the G trom get than FROSTY S opinion, he is the first leading, modern bass trombone player that I have heard of that didn t dismiss this instrument as a musical joke. I Must buy the Grimethorpe C.D with Frosty on GD, It will be a good christmas present for Derek.Lets have some more G Trommers.

You'll be surprised, Stuart. Here's an interesting little fact for you; both Denis Wick and Frank Mathison audioned for the same bass trombone job (CBSO) in the early 1960's. Denis, being a primarily a tenor player, auditioned on the Bb/F and Frank auditioned on the G. The conductor at the time (who's name escapes me) specified that he preferred the sound of the G trombone. Denis went back to Bournemouth, then auditioned for the principal job the year after and the rest, as they say, is history.

As far as modern players are concerned, there are a number of bass trombonists in the profession who occasionally use G trombone. Conductors often specify that smaller instruments should be used so as not to drown out a reduced string section in the classical repertoire. While most of the time, that usually means Alto, small Tenor and a large-bore tenor on the Bass trombone part, sometimes players use a G trombone, especially for English music. I recently did a great Schubert 9 on small instruments with the LPO and the sound was much more focussed.

An amusing little story from the pro world concerns Haydn's Creation, which has a very tasty bass trombone part. The conductor (Charlie Makerras) had specified that he wanted to hear the G trombone, but the player didn't have one. Thinking that the old fool wouldn't notice, the bass trombone player attached a handle to a straight tenor and was playing merrily away. During the rehearsal, the conductor turned to the bass trombone player and said 'You can't fool me, mate. Make sure you've got a G trombone for the concert!'

Said player, had a lot of telephone calls to make!:oops:

STUART HAIGH
05.09.2007, 20:55
You'll be surprised, Stuart. Here's an interesting little fact for you; both Denis Wick and Frank Mathison audioned for the same bass trombone job (CBSO) in the early 1960's. Denis, being a primarily a tenor player, auditioned on the Bb/F and Frank auditioned on the G. The conductor at the time (who's name escapes me) specified that he preferred the sound of the G trombone. Denis went back to Bournemouth, then auditioned for the principal job the year after and the rest, as they say, is history.

As far as modern players are concerned, there are a number of bass trombonists in the profession who occasionally use G trombone. Conductors often specify that smaller instruments should be used so as not to drown out a reduced string section in the classical repertoire. While most of the time, that usually means Alto, small Tenor and a large-bore tenor on the Bass trombone part, sometimes players use a G trombone, especially for English music. I recently did a great Schubert 9 on small instruments with the LPO and the sound was much more focussed.

An amusing little story from the pro world concerns Haydn's Creation, which has a very tasty bass trombone part. The conductor (Charlie Makerras) had specified that he wanted to hear the G trombone, but the player didn't have one. Thinking that the old fool wouldn't notice, the bass trombone player attached a handle to a straight tenor and was playing merrily away. During the rehearsal, the conductor turned to the bass trombone player and said 'You can't fool me, mate. Make sure you've got a G trombone for the concert!'

Said player, had a lot of telephone calls to make!:oops:

Yes this is interesting. The modern bass trom must have been nothing more than a sales gimmick, if the GD could do all these things why did it have to be replaced by a contraption that Walter Hargreaves described as a glorified tenor horn sound! Derek always fitted into the modern brass band on his G and still does.

MoominDave
06.09.2007, 11:23
Which band does he play for these days?

MoominDave
06.09.2007, 11:33
I wouldn't fancy playing the Croatian on a G! 'Achieved is the Glorious Work' would involve some heinous shifting.

MoominDave
09.09.2007, 21:04
Well, the instrument's arrived here now after it's multi-stop around-the-family trip from Leeds, and it is a really nice specimen. We've restrung and oiled the valve, filed off a Kelly 1.5 G to fit the mouthpiece receiver, and now it is functioning well enough for its quality to be obvious. I'll take it to Kidlington band tomorrow night to see how unobtrusive I can be with it...
To make it generally usable, it needs a bit of speeding up on both valve and slide, plus the finding of a case, but that shouldn't be too much trouble.

I've posted some geeky pictures at http://oxford.facebook.com/album.php?aid=51823&l=8a77d&id=573160633

Can anyone recommend a gig bag with a long enough slide section to accomodate one of these?

MoominDave
09.09.2007, 21:08
At the risk of monopolising this thread, I'd also to thank Steve for being such an easy laid-back helpful person to deal with. What a nice chap.

Hells Bones
09.09.2007, 21:36
Moomin' Hell!
You got yourself a fine collection there. I have never had the fortune to play a G :( though I have had a blow on a Rath Contra in F!

steve butler
09.09.2007, 22:01
At the risk of monopolising this thread, I'd also to thank Steve for being such an easy laid-back helpful person to deal with. What a nice chap.

Cheers Dave, just really pleased that my Dads trom has found such a good home, instruments are far better being played (rather well I suspect in your case) rather than gathering dust in the attic. And lets be honest the money comes in handy as well. This little windfall rather aptly is to fund an upcoming family wedding down in the "smoke", my mum was very pleased when I told her that Dad had come to the rescue.

I liked the pictures Dave but you must get a pic of that amazing lyre i sent along in the goody bag!

MoominDave
09.09.2007, 22:06
The camera's in bits at the moment. I'll do it tomorrow.

To tease you all, the lyre is fully 16 inches long... Very Heath Robinson.

iancwilx
09.09.2007, 22:28
At the risk of monopolising this thread, I'd also to thank Steve for being such an easy laid-back helpful person to deal with. What a nice chap.
As "Hells Bones" will confirm, we're all easy and laid-back at Kippax.
Hope you're doing ok Anthony.
-Wilkie

MoominDave
10.09.2007, 12:21
Moomin' Hell!
You got yourself a fine collection there. I have never had the fortune to play a G :( though I have had a blow on a Rath Contra in F!

Cheers! If you keep an eye on eBay, straight Gs come along pretty regularly, and cost a lot less than G/Ds. A browse through once a fortnight, and a willingness to pay 100-150 should get you an interesting old G in nice condition within two or three months. In fact, as of last night there was a Hawkes & Son straight G dating from 1911 listed for 200, although this is more than I would pay, particularly as the handle has been replaced by a rather peculiar appendage.

The Rath contra is a beautiful instrument, isn't it? I tried one that Adrian Cleverley was playing at a very abridged performance of Gotterdammerung in London (I was on bass trumpet), and it knocks my Miraphone BBb/FF contra into a cocked hat for accuracy, response, and ability to blend. At 6,000 a go though, I'll pass on it for now...

MoominDave
11.09.2007, 11:34
I'll take it to Kidlington band tomorrow night to see how unobtrusive I can be with it...

Quoting myself - that's got to be a sign of megalomania.

I've written up how it went on tMP - see http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/showthread.php?p=553539#post553539