View Full Version : STAY AWAY FROM SIBELIUS
James McFadyen
17.11.2003, 19:56
I have a feeling that this thread will have some varied views!!
How many people here use Sibelius for the ACTUAL COMPOSITION PROCESS?
Now, the reason I say this, is because way too many people have said to me they no longer work with manuscript and pencil, but instead use Sibelius - Instantly, my brain cells (or the ones I have left at least) start to go crazy.
It really amazes me at how gullable people can be about Sibelius. Sibelius is a notaional package, and yes, while there are many cool things you can accomplish compositionally with sibelius, it really cannot do the job the same as the brain can by looking at a blank sheet of manuscript!
There is a major problem here - the reviews (along with the advanved features of Sibelius) advise that Sibelius can be a great compositional tool, people read the reviews, play with the features and walla, they call themelves composers (or arrangers)
Sibelius is a machine, the problem is it's just to perfect, low tubas can play fast awkward semiquavers that would sound muddy in real life, but the 'virtual' composer is oblivous because of the sound that's comeing from the soundcard, which, let's face it, sounds ****.
When your COMPOSING ON SIBELIUS, you'll find you need to 'add more stuff' to make it sound full - opps, no, no - take it to your Band and you'll soon see how very little playing can sound full! - Good quality sound comes from the brain, not the soundcard or sibelius.
Also accent, dynamics and general humanity is lost, the ear hears and is driven by what Sibelius plays back, and what it plays back is wrong.
Contrary to popular (and misguided) belief, Sibelius is rubbish and playing back scores!!!!!!! For anyone who regards themselves a professional, I'm sure you'll agree with me. With the advent of Sibelius 3, some aspects of crapy playback can be tweeked (ie altering the volume for individual notes - a much needed facility of you ask me!)
My advice is this: Forget about Sibelius - don't use the gimmicks, get manuscript paper and use Sibelius what it does best - MUSIC NOTATION. If you want to hear it back properly (ie outwith Sibelius) either take it to your Band (or local band) and have them play it or export it as MIDI File, import it into Cubase and mess about and tweek it for the best performance (without altering any of the notes, etc)
Now, no doubt you fling back at me the ADVANTAGES of composing on Sibelius - which, as a competent Sibelius user, I know practically all of them, and they don't hold enough ground in my book.
But anyway, I just thought it would be interesting to see who is using Sibelius to compose music instead of doing some hard work for a change! :wink:
shedophone
17.11.2003, 20:20
I'm worried that as Sibelius gets more and more advanced, it will eventually actually write music for you! That would be catastrophic. :!:
I am however very fond of Sibelius for the purpose of providing a
readable set of parts to a composition with very little effort, However, I'd never think about actually composing on Sibelius. Well said!
James McFadyen
17.11.2003, 20:29
I'm glad you agree, shedophone :wink:
Your right, Sibelius is starting to become too advanced, and I believe your right, Sibelius will write music itself one day. God help us! :lol:
Bob Thompson
17.11.2003, 20:39
I agree in the most part, however, even in respect of using it as a notation tool, I am encouraging my 14 yr old daugter to use pencil and paper (well I do allow her manuscript, Im not all bad!) in the initial composition stages, as its almost like learning to type before one can use a pen, or is the pen a thing of the past?
EIBB_Ray
17.11.2003, 20:44
now, I'm not a composer or arranger (not since college eons ago) and I have only glanced at an evaluation copy of any software. With that said, I don't see the point. I can grab a pencil and call myself an arranger can't I? I don't see that it's the software's (or the software writer's) fault. It's a tool and it's neither inherently good nor bad. I dare say that those who wrote manusrcipt with quill pens once scoffed at those rank amatuers who'd dare to call themselves composers while using a pencil.
Who are of courwse entitled to your opinion, and the degree to which any tool enhances or detracts from anyone's creative processes is a personal issue. Seems we heard a lot about devil computers when word proceesing started to compete against the typwriter for journalists and novelists favor.....
James McFadyen
17.11.2003, 20:56
Just to clarify, I'm not against Sibelius, of course I amn't. What I am against is the misuse, or at least the extensive use of the gimmicks and using Sibeilus to provide the score for you, your view, EIBB RAY, is an outsiders opinion wth no extensive knowlage of Sibelius or the Composition process, but you do provide a more general angle. :lol:
In Sibelius when composing on it, Ideas are manufactured, ie by clicking the mouse on the notes and it seems to write itself without any thinking by the composer, It's like trial and error, ask the same composer to use only manuscript, pencil and a PIANO, and the results are shockingly different (for the better, in my opinion!).
There is the added and BIGGEST risk of all in composing within Sibelius, copy and pasteing - ------- aaarrrgggg!! producing repetitive idea that don't join properly to provide continuity and of course, developing ideas and developing your theme is harder and in Sibelius. Try writing a test piece in Sibelius, Impossible - only an amateur would write soley on Sibelius - harsh words they may be, but if you really know your stuff, you should know fine well how the compositional process works.
JessopSmythe
17.11.2003, 21:35
The "Gimmicks" are there to make things easier and quicker. It's nice to hold onto some traditional skill but just as important to make progress. If we all shun new ideas/tools on the basis that they take something away we may aswell all go back to living in trees and shouting "ugh" at each other occasionally
cornetgirl
17.11.2003, 21:55
I use Sib for getting my scores and parts done, but give me paper and pencil any day for the actual brainwork!
Rach x
we use sibelius at college although we are encouraged to get5 our main ideas using piano and manuscript but for people who cant play piano (mee) i find it easier hearing wht im wrinting i do agree with u in most of the stuff though
I agree to a point that Sibelius can create some problems, however, I have found it helpful in the process of composition. I did write/arrange using manuscript paper and still do on occasion but have more and more used the computer to write. I don't see a difference between paper and computer except that which is comfortable. I still need to take it to the band to get the full picture of what I've written and I do realize that the playback is a very different sound then that of live performance. I think it is in all how you use the tool not the tool.
Each must write in the setting that is most comfortable and for me it is a computer screen.
You also know you can't lose any parts when you have it saved on the computer.
I used to go spare every Xmas looking for parts...not any more. Any arrangement I have done and it is there easy to find.
Excellent for folks like me who are not in any way shape or form composers but like to skid off the quick arrangement for school.......here goes ....copyright again....... :roll:
It really amazes me at how gullable people can be about Sibelius. Sibelius is a notaional package, and yes, while there are many cool things you can accomplish compositionally with sibelius, it really cannot do the job the same as the brain can by looking at a blank sheet of manuscript!
There is a major problem here - the reviews (along with the advanved features of Sibelius) advise that Sibelius can be a great compositional tool, people read the reviews, play with the features and walla, they call themelves composers (or arrangers)
Contrary to popular (and misguided) belief, Sibelius is rubbish and playing back scores!!!!!!! For anyone who regards themselves a professional, I'm sure you'll agree with me.
My advice is this: Forget about Sibelius - don't use the gimmicks, get manuscript paper and use Sibelius what it does best - MUSIC NOTATION. If you want to hear it back properly (ie outwith Sibelius) either take it to your Band (or local band) and have them play it or export it as MIDI File, import it into Cubase and mess about and tweek it for the best performance (without altering any of the notes, etc)
YOU WOULDN'T HAPPEN TO BE A MEMBER OF THE FLAT EARTH SOCIETY WOULD YOU?? STILL BELIEVE ELVIS IS ALIVE??
Why are people so resistant to change?? Sibelius is a tool to be used, in the same way that a car is or a computer. If some of its features can make someones life easier then why not??
Sibelius CAN AND SHOULD be used as a compositional TOOL. It cannot compose the music for you, you MUST have the idea in your head first before it can be put through sibelius. For those of us who aren't proficient at writing down music by ear, a tool such as Sibelius is a Godsend. I would never have passed my A-level music if it wasn't for tools such as Sibelius or cubass or C-lab. If someone like me can go to a piece of software like that and input a piece of music (one note at a time in my case) and immediately hear what it sounds like, then as far as I'm concerned, the manuscript manufacturers can go bankrupt.
Looking back at your original post, you also seem to have a problem with people calling themselves composers or arrangers when using tools such as SIbelius?? Why?? A composer is someone who composes an original piece of work. Now, whether or not that person has used Sibelius to accomplish it does not matter at all. An arranger, by definition, is someone who arranges something (in this case for band instead of orchestra for example). If they use Sibelius to accomplish that, the they are still an arranger!!! Another point to note is that the sound coming from your soundcard only sounds BEEP if your soundcard is BEEP. Also, the sound that comes from your soundcard is immeasurably better than the sound that comes from a paper and pencil.
Anyone that uses Sibelius will agree that it is a long way from being perfect, of course you are going to have to change things around to make tham sound as you want to, those are limitations of the software and the hardware, but as I've already said, it's a tool to be used and not a replacement for any other tool you may or may not want to use.
I notice that in a later post you say that you are ".....not against Sibelius....". Can I direct your attention to your original post which says
"Contrary to popular (and misguided) belief, Sibelius is rubbish and playing back scores!!!!!!! For anyone who regards themselves a professional, I'm sure you'll agree with me. "
Personally speaking I would say that a quote like means that you are against Sibelius. I was very surprised to find out that someone who is so obviously anti-sibelius actually has a copy. Even more surprised to find that someone who would prefer to go back to pencil and paper is advocating the use of a dinosaur such as Cubass.
In conclusion I would say that Sibelius has its place, as does pencil and paper. Speaking from a relatively non-musical point of view, Sibelius and tools like it should continue to be able to be used. Also, I believe that people who DO use tools such as Sibelius should not be looked down upon by people who prefer not to (even if those people own a copy of the program they are against). Everyone is entitled to their opinion but some opinions are better kept to ones self.
Bagpuss
aimee_euph
17.11.2003, 23:54
we use sibelius at college although we are encouraged to get5 our main ideas using piano and manuscript but for people who cant play piano (mee) i find it easier hearing wht im wrinting i do agree with u in most of the stuff though
us too, and i agree!
It's so hard when you can't lay the piano, and if i want to hear the clashes or harmonies it's easy to play back.
For O/A level purposes it is suitsble, and at the moment it is all i want it for; - Speed, copy & paste :D
I was going to write a big message about this but then I read Bagpusses comments and found myself nodding all the way down it so ........ thanks mate :wink:
To me, it seems that the problem our original poster has with Sibelius is not the actual tool, but the people that use it. I would think that when we were back in the "paper" days, then most amateur composers would look at the blank piece of manuscript and think "sod this" and go to the pub. But now that it's easier and more accessible, more people want to try it and find it's a lot easier to deal with, is that wrong? Or am I missing something here?
Why does "normal" people composing or arranging bother you so much? What I took from the post is that you believe supposed "amateurs" don't even use their brains when using Sibelius. That's just ludicrous, I'm sorry but if the sounds are so mince then turn the volume knob down, it's all rather simple, and I'm sure any self respecting arranger and composer, and even the "gullible" amongst us know that there's a world of difference between what Sibelius plays us and real life. An extremely high and mighty post that holds no water with me, I think we'll agree to disagree on this one.
PS, ask Peter Graham what he thinks of Sibelius and he'll say it's the best thing since sliced bread, and he'll give you a hundred very good reasons for it. His musical output has probably quadrupled since he started using it, and he doesn't need to pay some incompetent notater to clean it up for him, (the plague of banding) Food for thought for the "professionals"
JessopSmythe
18.11.2003, 00:32
only an amateur would write soley on Sibelius
Interesting choice of words for a brass band forum. Do you have something against amatuer musicians?[/b]
geordiecolin
18.11.2003, 00:50
Don't compose myself, but surely any tool that makes composing easier/more accessible can't be frowned upon??
I, too, am against using SIBELIUS for the purposes of writing and arranging music.
But, then, that's probably because I do all my professional work using FINALE, a vastly superior notational tool IMO.........
Regards,
G.
Morghoven
18.11.2003, 02:51
I do a lot of my composing and arranging straight into Sibelius, and I don't think it makes me any less of a composer. I'll still use pen and paper when I want to, sometimes just working out a few bars to make it easier to put into the computer afterwards; and I learned my basic technique without any music software at all, but I would never go back to working like that.
If anything, I think good quality software like Sibelius has helped me, and no doubt many others. The danger of working at a piano is that you might be limited by your own technique as a pianist, although it's not always the case (Stravinsky wrote Rite of Spring at the piano!!). The beauty of good software is you can hear much more complex ideas without having to have a large group of players right there to try them out. I'm not saying the Sibelius playback is as good as the real thing, that would be impossible - but it is an extra tool for a composer to use. The thing to do is to use the playback for what it is good for - helping me to hear complex counter-melodies and intricate rhythms - rather than criticising it for what it can't do.
For me, it all boils down to talent. If you have genuine talent as a composer or arranger then it doesn't matter how you arrive at your end result, you'll still produce good work. Similarly, the best software in the world can't ultimately save someone who hasn't got the necessary creative flair. If you haven't got what it takes, no computer can do it for you.
Dave
Okiedokie of Oz
18.11.2003, 06:48
I have just bought Sibelius for the band for one sole purpose - presentation.
Back when I was a student int he band, whenever our conductor ahd to do a quick, special arrangement, it looked icky and it was hard to read. This isn't totally hsi fault. Not everyone has perfect handwriting, especially when doing an entire brass band on a schedule!!!!
Now I'm conducting, and I know I have the world's worst handwriting (my student's think it's amazing that my crotchet rests look like the number 3). So it's nicoe to know I can put something together in a rush and make it look presentable.
I do all the thinking. I don't trust computer transpositions. I am yet to see a program that does it perfectly (but then again, I've never used Sibelius yet, the software arrives tomorrow :P ). I don't consider myself an arranger, but I know I like thicker textures, and when I do do arrangments, I also add more. I know synthesised tubas are no match for a real tuba (I don't wanna be replaced by silicon!).
However, I wish to reiterate someone's (I forgot to look who said it) comment. IT is a tool. A Lawnmower doesn't cut the grass for you, it assists in making the job easier. A dishwasher doesn't take your dinner plate and make it spic and span, you have to at least rinse and scrape it.
I hope this is your only problem with Sibelius.
And, I used Logic @ uni. Not as pretty, but effective.
PeterBale
18.11.2003, 08:26
Having read through the above posts, and from my Dad's experience of using Sibelius over the past few years, I think the important thing to remember is that Sibelius is a tool, ie part of the solution, and not the whole answer, in the same way that a keyboard and manuscript paper are.
If you rely on any tool excessively the end product may be a little unbalanced, and there can be dangers as well as advantages in being able to cut and paste etc - transposed parts not sitting comfortably in the instruments' range, or the balance being thrown out. Equally, any system will have its own quirks, and I know Dad spends much longer adjusting the layout of both parts and score than he does with the inputting itself.
As for the question of listening to the music written/arranged, there is no proper solution other than finding a "tame" band who will run it through - it would be good sight-reading practice for them if nothing else!
James McFadyen
18.11.2003, 09:47
Very mixed opinions here and I'm delighted with the response so far.
The one the thing that is popping up frequently is the word 'tool'. What seems to be missing, is what the tool is, Sibelius as a whole is a Notational Package, it has TOOLS to help that very process, every tool that you can think of speeds up the typesetting process.
I do agree that hearing your work to check harmonies, even the best get thigs wrong occassionally. However, this is being misused, beacuse of those who are using Sibelius to compose are doing so to REDUCE or IRADICATE mistake, harmonic or not, when you should be using Sibelius to CHECK your writings, when your score is complete, put it in Sibelius.
Because your hearing it back instantly, it's not science any more, it's paining by numbers. Books like 'Convertible Counterpoint in the Strict Style' written by the very talented Serge Ivanovitch Taneiev, of which I have just finished reading - but books lke these are being replaced by the 'hear it while writing it' scenario' and while there are obvious advantages here, it's amateurish - without naming any names here, I bet you the top names in Brass Band composition still use manuscript paper.
Also, and as a composer, I can't see how this hasn't cause problems - if your tackling a Brass Band score and you arn't able to see the whole score (and have it big enough to read clearly - 'fit to page' is not enough). Why would you want to see the whole score if you can hear it, you ask? If your even asking that one, then that say's it all - If one cannot see what is happening throughout the score, one cannot know what is truly going on at that moment, neither can one's future writings be easily predicited.
Now, as a compositional tool, only school kids could perhaps see the beefits of hearing it while you write - but still I would see this is a disadvantage for later life.
Let's not be blázé about Sibelius, and let's not forget that compositional is still an intellectual and highly creative artform.
If you hit the augmentation plug-in, it does it for you, brillant, but what next, what about the counterpoint, harmonies, are you just going to augment the whole lot, not very smart is it. The problem with Sibelius is it does something for you but it doesn't have any appreciation for the technicalities of complex music.
For the amateur who cares only to write an arrangment, etc on an occasional basis just for fun, then fine, fair enough, cannot argue with that, Sibelius can be fun that way.
But...............for the guys who call themselves composers, I think a more serious approach would benefit and would certainly progress you faster in the composition.
Naomi McFadyen
18.11.2003, 10:03
I love Sib! I use it all the time with composing band music.
All of my band compositions have gone straight into Sib... I find it ideal as my perfect pitch isn't very perfect! :? Plus, it saves a lot of time writing music straight into Sib as well...
Does this make me any less of a composer?! Of course not... As some people have already said, Sibelius is a tool, is cannot write the music for you!
Sib is exactly the same as pen and paper... You still start with an empty page of manuscript, and you still write in notes, dynamics, everything... just sib is electronic! A screen infront of you which is making the presentation top notch! All the hard work is still there thinking of the ideas and writing the music into sib...
Yes, sib can arrange music at a click of a button, but it's not good at all!
You'll find that the 'better-known' composers are starting to use sibelius more and more these days... Harrison's Dream by Peter Graham for instance was written soley on Sibelius... so the person who quoted "only an amateur would write soley on Sibelius", is wrong :-P
So yes, it is possible to write a test piece in Sib... and I've done it myself!
I've been composing music since I was 8. Of course then, Sib wasnt around (and I wouldnt have used it for the stuff I was writing anyway)... everything was written by hand, and then when software like Cakewalk and Cubase came out I was using that... then when I was 17 started writing for BB... Sibelius was highly recommended.
As for playback... I find no probs with it... ok, so if you dont have a decent soundcard the instruments sound a bit naff, but I found using the Yamaha XG card was stunnin'!
I'm now just using the processors soundcard (due to upgrading processor and motherboard, and my old soundcard not being able to fit into the new motherboards slots :cry: :( ), and compared to what I was using previously, it is really naff! But you still get a rough idea of what it sounds like, which is better than nothing!
That's only my opinions and views on Sib... People use Sib for different things and purposes and have different opinions on it...
I know plenty of composers that use this for writing there music... At the end of the day, it's down to preference.
James McFadyen
18.11.2003, 10:10
Naruco, I do disagree with you, but that life, ain't it :lol:
I am glad, however, that Sibelius is working for you.
Dave Payn
18.11.2003, 11:40
I'm not a composer but a frequent arranger who has never used Sibelius thus far, but certainly won't rule it out (it's called finding the money.....) All I can say from what I've heard in many discussions like these and from playing Sibelius-ized parts is that it is a 'tool' and I would have thought that composers/arrangers will make of it what they will. After all, Spellchecker is a tool is it not? and from the emails etc. I've had over the years where Spellchecker has been available, not many people bother using that to its full potential.
drummerboy
18.11.2003, 11:42
I use Sibelius to write the vast majority of my music. I learnt to write music on paper, then went to Sibelius much later. I don't think that writing pieces straight into Sibelius makes you any less of a composer. Used correctly, by which I mean primarily a score notation package, with playback almost as an extra, it is extremely valuable. It saves wasting sheets and sheets of paper, and making endless mistakes! However, actually learning to compose on solely Sibelius I do not agree with.
or maybe just a wannabe arty farty for using paper and pen?!
sib has **** playback features.. but it wasnt designed as a sequencer or a mixer!
fact: sibelius is brilliant at what it claims to do... anyone who says it is not an aid to composition either hasn't used it... doesnt know how to use it, or just refuses to admit it!
it's amateurish - without naming any names here, I bet you the top names in Brass Band composition still use manuscript paper.
haha :roll: :roll:
eddy gregson, peter graham, martin ellerby are all amateurs apparently ;);)
James McFadyen
18.11.2003, 12:05
I'm sure they had sketches on paper before they went to the computer!!!!!!
You cannot view a full Brass Band score on Sibelius unless u have a HUGE monitor, a widescreen monitor, or something!
If you cannot see the whole score at any one time, you must use an alternative means - even it's just sketches, I highly doubt that they went to the computer blind and never touched a single piece of manuscript for thery're creation - if they did, well, it just goes to show that they deserve to be the best of the best.
Revel8ion
18.11.2003, 13:07
[quote]thigs
paining
lke
arn't
predicited
beefits
brillant
James, I don’t want to be too picky, but maybe you should try to embrace technology a little more. There are some very good tools available, especially spellchecker’s. :oops:
ok, don't know if it's been mentioned already because all the posts are soooo long, and I'm impatient... but the thing that worries me most about sibelius is that "Arrange" button! Hey, just type in a piano score and we'll do the instrumentation for you! So, it sounds hideous and the basses and troms are playing the exact same thing the whole time... but hey it saves you a couple of hours!
*shudder*
without naming any names here, I bet you the top names in Brass Band composition still use manuscript paper.
Yes, but i bet most of them use Sibelius as well.
I must admit i've been trying for a long time to arrange stuff on sibelius and got nowhere, i always give in. I recently started arranging a piece on A3 manuscript and i'm finding it so much easier to write my ideas down, and i'm nearly halfway through now, that's a lot farther than i've ever got before!
However, I still love sibelius, it's invaluable for putting in what i've come up with so far, spotting mistakes and getting inspiration in what to do next.
I disagree about the playback function I think it's great. I don't pretend for one minute it sound like a real brass band but it's much easier than frazzling my brain out trying to play all the parts at once in my head!! :hammer
The best thing to do is to use traditional and new methods hand-in-hand, there's no law that you have to use one or the other!
Anglo Music Press
18.11.2003, 13:45
For what it's worth, I think Sibelius is stunning. I no longer use paper and pencil, but compose directly into the computer. It saves hours, makes things totally flexible and has increased accuracy beyond recognition (it's much easier to hear wrong notes than to see them.)
There are many features I don't need or use, and you have to be aware of its limitations, but if they only sold the programme to composers, it would cost 10 times as much!
Don't knock it!
James McFadyen
18.11.2003, 14:09
Philip, I'm glad u fully like Sibelius! :lol:
I suppose everyone is different. pros and beginners a like!
The arrange function, like someone said, earlier - the statement to do with a barge pole come to mind :lol:
I appreciate your comments and it's great to see such a variety. I will take back my statement of 'even the pros don't use Sibelius for composing', or something like that, as it proves, even the biggest of pro's do! :lol:
See, we all learn something! :wink:
The King of Wise
18.11.2003, 14:15
James, I don’t want to be too picky, but maybe you should try to embrace technology a little more. There are some very good tools available, especially spellchecker’s. :oops:
I believe grammar checkers are available as well.
Lalo
Brian Bowen
18.11.2003, 14:15
Thinking on a different level: Future musicologists, biographers, collectors, auction houses, students, etc, will miss the advantages of reading and holding the handwritten scores of fine composers. The handwriting of many old masters is a joy to behold. Such scores reveal aspects of the composer's character, state of mind and compositional process that a computer-generated score cannot. Today, many fine composers use computers for convenience, time-saving and the ability to save production costs. When it comes to great music, however, posterity will miss the benefits of calligraphy.
There are some very good tools available, especially spellchecker’s.
.... yes, but unfortunately not on this forum, so far as I can see.
Not many people can be bothered to write their posts in another application, spellcheck it, then copy it into the forum. (or even write the post in the forum, then cut/paste into "Word" or whatever, then back.)
I'm sure in the past I've contributed to other forums where your post is automatically spellchecked upon submission; is it not an option for this forum? can it be added as an enhancement? or am I missing something in the set-up options?
G.
it's possibly an option, but at theMouthPiece, we assumed that our members would be mature enough to avoid making a big issue of the occasionally misspelled word..
Back On Topic Please
Mod
Edit- That was on purpose, to make my point, Philip..
Anglo Music Press
18.11.2003, 14:25
it's possibly an option, but at theMouthPiece, we assumed that our members would be mature enough to avoid making a big issue of the occasionally misspelled word..
Mod
or 'misspelt' :lol: :lol: :lol:
SOOORY - back on topic!
it's possibly an option, but at theMouthPiece, we assumed that our members would be mature enough to avoid making a big issue of the occasionally misspelled word..
Mod
I understand, but it's not other peoples spelling that worries me! I happen to take some pride in my own, and I like all the help I can get.
OK, back on topic.
G.
Revel8ion
18.11.2003, 14:42
it's possibly an option, but at theMouthPiece, we assumed that our members would be mature enough to avoid making a big issue of the occasionally misspelled word..
Back On Topic Please
Keppler
If you read the entire thread you will see that it was very much on topic. I only used the spelling comparison to convince James that the use of certain “tools” can be of great benefit to composers, both of the written word and music. :evil:
drummerboy
18.11.2003, 15:02
You cannot view a full Brass Band score on Sibelius unless u have a HUGE monitor, a widescreen monitor, or something!
I can see a full band score on my laptop, which hasn't got a huge screen. But if you're writing is good enough, you shouldn't need to see the whole score in detail all of the time, surely once you've got to a stage where you are looking at a few pages of score then you can tell what's wrong with it from the overall shape of the score/parts.
johnflugel
18.11.2003, 15:25
James,
I am sure I speak for some (probably more than some!) when I say 'you bore me'.
I respect any 'young' composers setting out and working tirelessly to produce new thoughts and ideas, but I find some of your rants on Sibelius, Naomi's website, comissions utterly disinteresting.
Don't take everything so seriously - take a warm bath, drink some horlicks and listen to classic fm and you will feel much better after this 'chill out' period.
Anyway, must go. I have to start work on the commission I have received to compose the Open test piece. I will feed the phrases 'nice tunes', 'no dischords' 'ten minutes' 'no percussion' and 'very loud last note' into Sibelius and see what it produces for me :wink:
Ta ra!
John
Temps
JessopSmythe
18.11.2003, 16:14
John, I have to agree with you.
It is not the opinions expressed that I object to, but the way that they are expressed. To express an opinion such as the ones in this thread as if they were inarguable fact, as well as belittling those with other opinions e.g "Only an amatuer....." or "Only a school kid" is, in my opinion, quite offensive.
To reiterate, James, I have no problem with you, or anybody else expressing an opinion, but I do feel it could be done more tactfully.
You've both got it in a nutshell.....tact.
Go and find some James!
PeterBale
18.11.2003, 16:45
I think the point has been made now, so can we limit any further postings to the usefulness of Sibelius :?:
Thank you. Mod.
Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(
Very mixed opinions here and I'm delighted with the response so far.
I do agree that hearing your work to check harmonies, even the best get thigs wrong occassionally. However, this is being misused, beacuse of those who are using Sibelius to compose are doing so to REDUCE or IRADICATE mistake, harmonic or not, when you should be using Sibelius to CHECK your writings, when your score is complete, put it in Sibelius.
Because your hearing it back instantly, it's not science any more, it's paining by numbers.
I find the above statement to be more than a little ridiculous. For those of us (me) without the talent of Philip Sparke and our own Mr. Thorne, what you are suggesting is that we should put everything down long hand on paper (a process that could take days for those of us who can't play piano and don't have perfect pitch). Then, once it's on paper, I should then take the whole lot to my local band (bearing in mind, as a player I HATE handwritten music, it's difficult to read and looks messy) and ask them to play it for me thereby disrupting their rehearsals, making myself look a prat for taking something that is so obviously wrong and generally wasting their time. Once I've got back home with my presumably anotated score, I should then try to remember what was wrong with the score in the first place and attempt to correct it. With every draft. I should then go back down to the band and get them to check it. Sounds good to me. I'm sure I'd be guaranteed a sale there!!! Surely the whole idea of a TOOL like sibelius is to make sure that your work is at least presentable. Far from needing to SEE the whole score, you can HEAR the full score as it's played back to you, if you hear a wrong note, you can look for it and change it or even (heaven forbid) if you're not good enough to know which note's wrong, you can play with them until you make it sound right. I don't need to be the worlds best on music theory to know if something sounds wrong. (Bach four part harmony - if it sounds right, it is right)
If using sibelius is going to eradicate mistakes in a composition then BRING IT ON, in fact, bring on sibelius v5!!!!
Books like 'Convertible Counterpoint in the Strict Style' written by the very talented Serge Ivanovitch Taneiev, of which I have just finished reading - but books lke these are being replaced by the 'hear it while writing it' scenario' and while there are obvious advantages here, it's amateurish - without naming any names here, I bet you the top names in Brass Band composition still use manuscript paper.
I have absolutely no doubt that Serge Ivanovitch Taneiev is a very talented person, even if it's for no other reason than knowing what Convertible Counterpoint in the Strict Style actually is. (Sounds like needlework to me). Whilst I have no doubt that such tomes have their place, in my case it would be to prop open a door I think. What you really need to remember is that, whilst you are ploughing through such a weighty read, and then putting what you've learnt into practice on manuscript paper, composers/arrangers such as Philip sparke (sorry to keep using you as an example) are producing excellent work at 5 times the rate that you are by using the tools available to them such as sibelius. I think it's already been adequately proved that your last sentence of that quote about top names in brass band composition is rubbish.
Now, as a compositional tool, only school kids could perhaps see the beefits of hearing it while you write - but still I would see this is a disadvantage for later life.
Let's not be blázé about Sibelius, and let's not forget that compositional is still an intellectual and highly creative artform.
I find the above quote utterly offensive. I don't compose or arrange music, I don't have the talent. But, the very fact that you are rubbishing the efforts of those 'amateurs' who try their best and do produce some good work by using whatever TOOLS are available, I think is utterly reprehensible. You should be ashamed of yourself.
But...............for the guys who call themselves composers, I think a more serious approach would benefit and would certainly progress you faster in the composition.
As I said earlier, 'the guys who call themselves composers' do take a very serious approach to their composition and arranging. Many of them use sibelius from the start I have no doubt and they still continue to produce very professional pieces of work and I have no doubt they do it at a faster rate than those people who persist in using paper and pencil.
In conclusion I would say that for a person so young, you have a very high view of your own abilities, especially when confronted by obvious talent such as Philip Sparke, Darrol Barry etc.etc. If what I know about other industries rings true in the music publishing world, you need as many friends and contacts as you can get. With posts such as the ones on this thread, you are going the wrong way to make friends and influence people. Learn some tact and respect
B.Puss
To be quite honest I don't know what to say.
I personally have just recently purchased Sibelius and I am thrilled to bits with it. I had been using Finalé for years and so, it took quite a while to make the transition.
Not to sound up my self or anything, but I am quite disgusted of some of the comments on this thread.
Who decides whether we're an ametuer or professional? Surely it shouldn't matter if we're Joe Bloggs or Mr Sparke himself? If it helps our thought process then why should we do it.
If the typewriter was ok why invent the computer. If the telephone was ok why invent the mobile phone???
This is the case with sibelius. In the two examples above they helped us acheive our goal more easily .... the same with sibelius.
Have you ever tried to play 13 parts on a piano? Goodness knows how long it would take you to write out all of the instrumental parts for a 12 minute test piece.
Philip Sparke himself (who I idolize and would call him one of the upmost professional composers of our generation) says he soley uses Sibelius ... so obviously no professional composers use Sibelius .... sorry but I consider him a bit more professional than another certain member.
Overall, do what you're pleased with. I love Sibelius, and my handwriting is as bad as my 13 part piano playing!
Don't want to disagree ..... actually ... I think sibelius is great, and I feel that although people have their own opinions, your opinions shouldn't make other people feel small, or hurtful, and that's what I think you've made me feel. Yes, I may be an ametuer .... we all start somewhere, or did you start off the be-all and end-all of composing.
Sorry to sound sharp, but it's really got to me!
Ben
Please note that my spelling is usually dire .... but I made an exception! :D
Revel8ion
18.11.2003, 17:58
In conclusion I would say that for a person so young, you have a very high view of your own abilities, especially when confronted by obvious talent such as Philip Sparke, Darrol Barry etc.etc. If what I know about other industries rings true in the music publishing world, you need as many friends and contacts as you can get. With posts such as the ones on this thread, you are going the wrong way to make friends and influence people. Learn some tact and respect
B.Puss
I could not have put it better myself.
Sibelius (or any other music software) is only a tool to make the notation process more efficient, the actual musical ideas and pictures still have to come from the composer.
James McFadyen
18.11.2003, 18:08
Let's not get in another fighting match, let's debate nicely - me included - I have used words like Amateur, which in the context of reading it back, may have sounded a little harsher than when I wrote it. For that I apologise to all that work hard using Sibelius to compose.
I will not retaliate at your comments to me, remember that word that's been used a few times ------- TACT ------- come on guys, a bit of irony starting is to show.
This is a debate - it is not a place to write a whole load of personal vendeta, if you do not believe in what I say, then fair enough, I accept that, but do not target me and try to ridicule me, challenge me, yes, but do ridicule or aggressively comment on something.
I am the first to admit, that throughout this thread I have gradually digged a hole, however please respect my position as a professional composer who earns a living writing music and running a publishing company.
Please comment on weather or not you use Sibelius as a compositional tool or not and why. NO OTHER COMMENTS WILL BE TOLERATED IN THIS POST, ANY SUCH COMMENTS WILL BE REPORTED - NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE - PLEASE RESPECT THIS POST AS A LIVELY DEBATE ONLY WITHOUT TARGETING ANYONE FOR SHOOTING PRACTICE!
Edit: Please leave the Moderating to the Moderators! (RT)
Revel8ion
18.11.2003, 18:15
only an amateur would write soley on Sibelius
Who determines what is amateur or professional? It is similar to the highbrow attitude in the world of art. If Damien Hirst cuts a cow in half and puts it in a case of formaldehyde it is art, if I did it I would be put in jail by the RSPCA. :twisted:
What's the point James in 'trying ' to keep the peace and then writing the bit at the end in capitals??
Trying to wind us all up again?
Mods..we're all trying to keep to the thread but its very hard when you have to read comments like the above post!
Please comment on weather or not you use Sibelius as a compositional tool or not and why.
See, trouble is, spellchecker wouldn't have picked that up anyway........
Lads - difficult as it may or may not be, it's really time for this to return to topic or be locked. Peter's already had to ask for topic retention and I've had to do so myself previously.
Settle. Have a coffee, or read some other topics. There's 47000- odd of them there.
Whether people are "wound up" or not, let's have on-topic discussion and not be drawn (rightly or wrongly) into quick firing.
Honestly, this is one of the friendliest forums around - and we should be able to have intelligent discussions, with potentially different points of view without resorting to threats, slanging or "winding-up"
This post isn't barbed, or aimed at any individual.
Please, please please return to topic.
Keppler
Mod
Well Siad Heather.....
..... I'm not gonna respond *reaches for stressball .... and an ametuer stress ball at that ... it's not good enough for a professional :D*
I've attempted to use Sibelius, and must say, am very impressed with what it potentially can do - speaking from a thick-user's point of view.
Have more experience on Finale, but am curious to what ye might think Sib's advantages are over Finale, and vice versa
I must admit, that i've found the transition from Finalé to Sibelius very hard, and I don't know any of the functions!!!!!!
Does anyone know how to delete bars without leaved the soprano conret bar still there? Tonnes easier in Finalé! :D
Ben
flashbarry
18.11.2003, 18:46
As a professional I worked on Finale and Encore, most of the work being done on finale which does take quite a while to master but the results are excellent. For the last year or so I have been using Sibelius 2 almost exclusively and must admit Sibelius is far superior to other programs I have used, there are a few things that finale does better but for ease of use sibelius wins hands down!!
When composing I never start with a full score, I always use a short score of about 6 lines so I can always keep control of the piece be it a 3 minute or a 15 minute piece. Only when I am completely satisfied on the structure, harmony, counterpoint etc do I begin the full score, having already made instrumentation notes.
I used to be a technophobe, I didn;t even ink my scores in and just used pencil but I have found as Philip did that it speeds up the process using a computer and sibelius, even at this level it is good to hear your work played back instantly (all the band turn up and play in tune!!). Plus you can play it as often as you like, transpose it, change notes, change the scoring without the band getting bored.
I really don't think it matters how composers and arrangers get to the finished product as long as it is something that they can feel proud of!!
Long live sibelius :lol:
I would contend that it comes down to personal style and preferance. I have had the privilage to be coached by two composers whom I have great respect. One, William Himes, taught me to start with a three line score, which I use, but he writes with pencil and paper and prefers that. The other is William Broughton who uses computers, finale I believe, suggested that writing directly to computer is faster.
Each his own preference and both professional and each believing that their way is best. I enjoy using sibelius, it is fast and clean, my hand writing is lousy so I need all the help I can get. Professional or amatuer I think it a great tool.
Anglo Music Press
18.11.2003, 19:30
Does anyone know how to delete bars without leaved the soprano conret bar still there? Tonnes easier in Finalé! :D
Ben
If you mean deleting a bar in a full score, then hold down Ctrl and click on one of the staves in that bar (the whole bar should then have a double line around it.) Then press delete. EASY PEASY
neiltwist
18.11.2003, 20:04
There is one point that I haven't read so far, but please forgive me if it has been mentioned, but when composing or arranging, I will often ask other peoples opinions on my work, which can be costly if I have to send it through the post, but through the miracle or modern technology and email, I can send it around the world, or rather to my mates at uni, in seconds, at no extra cost!
another advantage of using the computer is the ability to publish it on the internet. Roger makes good use of this technology on his website.
These are not quite the other side to the point james was making, ie, music could be composed then copied up to electronic format to make use of these advantages, but doing so is time consuming. I just think it's easier to compose on computer, then print out when necessary, than to write it on manuscript, then copy it, or input to the computer.
it's all swings and roundabouts though, and expecting everyone to compose on a computer is like expecting the paperless office to appear somewhere, and expecting no-one to use the computer is like moving back to the pre electronic age.
Morghoven
18.11.2003, 20:10
Leaving aside the moments where it's got a bit nasty :shock: this has all been quite fascinating; especially the natural extension of topic to finding out how different composers work.
I have to agree about generally steering well clear of the 'arrange' function...but I discovered that even that has its uses! A couple of years back I was orchestrating a new musical. By the time we were getting towards the performance, the original piano/vocal score in no way resembled the actual music for the show (not least because there were several songs that weren't in it :!: ), and the technical guys (lights, sound, that sort of thing) needed something to work off. None of them were particularly musical, and the score never needed to be performed in that state...so with a few mouse-clicks and a bit of tidying up to make it easy on the eye, I had a reduced score ready to roll in just a few hours. Completely unplayable, yes - but it didn't need to be played, so that didn't matter. A few months after the production finished, I was asked to produce a new piano/vocal score to more accurately reflect the orchestral one. It took me a month!
When I first got Sibelius, the 'arrange' function was something I thought I'd never use. Don't it go to show you never know!
Dave
.....I do all my professional work using FINALE, a vastly superior notational tool IMO.........
OK, hands up, I admit it; I only put that in to wind James up.
In fact, I have no first hand experience of using Sibelius, other than playing around with the demo version for about 10 minutes before getting bored. I have used Finale for around 10 years now, and I won’t be switching to Sibelius for two primary reasons:
First, the fact is that both programs are top-of-the-range, state-of-the-art notational packages. As such, because of their sheer scope and power, they are both very complex programs. Because of this (and despite what Sib’s marketing may claim) they necessarily have pretty steep learning curves. It takes a long time to learn the intricacies of the program, longer to grasp its full potential, and longer still to truly master it. Bearing in mind the time invested in learning such a program, coupled with the not inconsiderable initial financial outlay (not to mention upgrade costs), it seems inconceivable to me that anyone should want to switch from one to the other after several years, and start all over again, unless you were seriously disillusioned with particular functions of the program. So far as I am concerned, Finale does 99.5% of what I need it to do, therefore it really doesn’t matter to me even if Sibelius were to do the other 0.5% better; no software package is perfect, and I am confident that there would be other things that Sibelius would do less well. Of course, I realise that starting over with a new program after several years experience on a different one is nowhere near as difficult as the first time; many of the basic principles of computerised music typesetting are common to both programs, nevertheless the learning curve is still there.
The other reason is less rational and more personal; I have to say that I find Sibelius’ whole marketing strategy to be offensive on several counts, not least in it’s blatantly “anti-Finale” pitch. If you look at the Sibelius website, you will find claim after unsubstantiated claim as to how Sibelius does this-and-that so much better than Finale. Added to this are the “genuine unsolicited testimonials from former Finale users” (puhlease!! Are we selling some quack slimming potion here?), the trade-in discounts to Finale users, and spurious “statistics” concerning the number of people allegedly switching from Finale to Sibelius. Forgive me if I seem sceptical here, but, when you consider that the marketing department of MakeMusic (owners of Codamusic, the original developers of Finale) does not feel the need to promote its product by means of maligning a competitor’s product, well, to me that speaks volumes.
I have no idea whether, had the playing field been level when I first became involved in computerised notation, I would have chosen Sibelius over Finale after careful comparison. At that time, there was no real option, since I already had a PC, and to have bought Sibelius would have necessitated the additional purchase of a BBC/Acorn computer, which wouldn’t run other PC apps. However, I’m certainly not going to switch now, which in my mind serves only to further underline the pointlessness of Sibelius’ “anti-Finale” marketing.
Long Live Finale !
:wink:
Does anyone know how to delete bars without leaved the soprano conret bar still there? Tonnes easier in Finalé! :D
Ben
If you mean deleting a bar in a full score, then hold down Ctrl and click on one of the staves in that bar (the whole bar should then have a double line around it.) Then press delete. EASY PEASY
Cheers!
Wow! Advice from Philip Sparke! :o *happy now!*
James McFadyen
18.11.2003, 23:26
Has anyone got Sibelius 3 yet, I'm gonna get it, I've tried the demo and like it a lot and the added features are a god send and much needed in my opinion.
Just wondering if someone could jive me first-hand knowlage of using Sibelius 3.
Straightmute
18.11.2003, 23:28
Does anyone know how to delete bars without leaved the soprano conret bar still there? Tonnes easier in Finalé! :D
Ben
If you mean deleting a bar in a full score, then hold down Ctrl and click on one of the staves in that bar (the whole bar should then have a double line around it.) Then press delete. EASY PEASY
Cheers!
Wow! Advice from Philip Sparke! :o *happy now!*
Then hold down the shift key and hit right curser to remove the following empty bars.
Sibelius has changed my life. I've used just about all the notation programmes since they became commercially available at a resonable price some years 15 ago. Anyone else remember Composers' Pen on the Amstrad PCW??? Sibelius must win hands down. Bit of a no-brainer really.
I've seen my students bring in work on other programmes and the only one which comes close is Finale, but there is much more pre-compositional learning to do with Finale and much greater chance of a complete mess if you are not fully in control...
I'm on the point of upgrading my own and my College's software from Sibelius v.2 to v.3. It will do everything I need and many things I don't (yet) need.
D
BeatTheSheep
18.11.2003, 23:30
[quote=homocidalbennyboy]
If you mean deleting a bar in a full score, then hold down Ctrl and click on one of the staves in that bar (the whole bar should then have a double line around it.) Then press delete. EASY PEASY
does this work on an entire bar vertically down the score (I mean, does it get rid of it or does it leave an empty bar?)
plus, anybody know how to get Bb bass to play in the correct octave on Sibelius 2, I mean it's bad enough its in bass clef, but at euphonium pitch?
I will unashamedly use any tool that makes my writing legible and doesn't hurt my hand. I solved the 'viewing the entire score' problem by printing it out occasionally. After all, if you can afford Sibelius, you can afford printer paper!
James McFadyen
18.11.2003, 23:45
Yes it deletes the whole bar, it basically cuts it out, leaving no blank bar.
The Bb Bass thing is a pain, although, I'm sure it was fixed in the 2.11 upgrade, I can't remember, I've still to apply the upgrade on my copy since I reinstalled WindowsXP.
Also, I never use Sibelius's own Brass Band manuscript paper, as, for my own preference, doesn't name the instruments properly or put them in the British order, but that is just my preference. Instead I construct my own Brass Band manuscript by selecting an A4 page and creating instruments on it, I then setup all the brackets and re-group the barlines and save it as my own Brass Band manuscript.
Naomi McFadyen
18.11.2003, 23:46
Yes, it will delete the whole line, no empty bars at all...
With Sib 2, and sorting out the basses, in which they are the wrong way around in the first place (in fact, there was a couple of things Sib 2 does to the BB score I disagreed with)... double click in a bar in the Bb bass line, and delete the whole line, then if you press 'I' on your keyboard, or right click, then click 'Instruments', add in the Bb Bass from the Brass menu, and plonk it in where it should be... It will then be in treble clef and in the right 'pitch'...
With viewing the whole page... if you have the score landscape and have a 17 or 19 inch monitor, having it on 50% will allow you to view the whole score with you able to view the notes...
Hope this helps :)
Straightmute
19.11.2003, 00:01
does this work on an entire bar vertically down the score (I mean, does it get rid of it or does it leave an empty bar?)
It will remove the empty bars from your score.
plus, anybody know how to get Bb bass to play in the correct octave on Sibelius 2, I mean it's bad enough its in bass clef, but at euphonium pitch?
This should happen automatically if you choose the brass band manuscript paper or create instruments correctly. If it isn't, you should be able to adjust the transposition in the playback/sound controls.
D
RThomp7462
19.11.2003, 00:30
Interesting reading all the strengths and weaknesses of the two major composition/notation packages and how (as brass band composers/arrangers/notaters) perceive them.
Although Wright & Round use Coda's Finale for notating (I emphasise notating rather than arranging/composing) we are aware that Sibelius would produce results equally as good.
But we caught the train long before Sibelius arrived and a lot of our catalogue had already been reset in Finale. We have also had a good working relationship with Coda who have implemented specific software upgrades at our request aimed specifically for brass band scores.
Also Wright & Round and our parent company (who amongst other projects notate scores and music for publishers world wide) are based around Apple Mactintosh systems (Coda's Finale original first choice of platform) which Sibelius have only just cross platformed (in fact chosing Acorn as its first platform was a major marketing error!).
It is interesting that Sibelius, being a UK notation package, is used widely here, but Coda's Finale has a much stronger American and European dominance (probably to Sibelius chosing Acorn as its original platform . . . ask an American about Acorn!!!).
This is an interesting thread and I almost feel inclined to buy the latest Apple Mac version of Sebelius to play around with (if you get my meaning!!)
But going back to the original post from James . . . I agree, sometimes a pencil will produce so much better results (and I hear this from many composers/arrangers).
Roger Thompson
Wright & Round
Okiedokie of Oz
19.11.2003, 00:51
Also Wright & Round and our parent company (who amongst other projects notate scores and music for publishers world wide) are based around Apple Mactintosh systems (Coda's Finale original first choice of platform) which Sibelius have only just cross platformed (in fact chosing Acorn as its first platform was a major marketing error!).
The Mac isn't just Finale's processor of choice. A lot of compositional, notational, sequential etc. software is disgned around smaller computers, like Macs, older Ataris and so forth. However, seeing myself as someone who is a little more computer literate than the average, I couldn't be flicked to go and purchase a second computer. At uni, I used mainly IMacs, but I got frustrated when I tried to do something simplistic and logical that only works on a PC.
And as for [quote homicidalbenny]
Wow! Advice from Philip Sparke!
[\quote]
How often can that happen???? God I am, like, sooooooooo jealous **flips his hair**
I must admit, that i've found the transition from Finalé to Sibelius very hard, and I don't know any of the functions!!!!!!
Does anyone know how to delete bars without leaved the soprano conret bar still there? Tonnes easier in Finalé! :D
Ben
hold ctrl and click on the bar ben.. it should be selected in double blue lines rather than one.. now press delete :)
edit: oops.. philip's already answered it!
WhatSharp?
19.11.2003, 10:06
Personally I don't like Sibelius.... never used it, they just wouldn't give me a job :D ... still their loss.....
From a designers point of view (as in software designer) this is a fascinating topic into what makes one software stand out from another. All too often software has been written with little or no thought as to how people actually use it. I remember early versions of MS Word when they brought in WYSIWIG (What You See Is What You Get) and everyone thought WOW!, however subsequent versions have had more and more added to them that now each time a new version comes out you spend the first hour trying to work out how to do what you use to do!.
Lets hope Software designers (myself included) take note of this!
Seedhouse
19.11.2003, 10:43
I like using Sibelius to put all my parts together for compositions so that I know that they "work" together with no dischords etc.
It also makes my work much neater, and has been very valuable to me during both GCSE and AS levels that I am doing now.
I think that once you get the hang of how to use it well, it's brilliant. But at first I didn't understand Sibelius 2, because it's different from Sibelius 1! :?
On an ever-so-slightly off topic note, has anyone ever read the tip of the day things when you open up Sibelius?
I don't always read them, but they're very useful (quick tips like keyboard shortcuts etc.). However there is one that says something along the lines of "Put the legs of your bed in salt to ward off vampires" - no joking!!
Well i suppose these computer programmers have to keep themselves entertained somehow... :lol:
Sibelius is a wonderful tool. However...
Price in UK - Ł595
Price in US - $599
I find this pricing structure offensive, and it would put me off buying the product even if I could afford it.
JessopSmythe
19.11.2003, 13:47
Why not buy it through a US website?
I'm not saying there aren't ways round it. What I object to is UK consumers (who, correct me if I'm wrong, tend to have less disposable income than US consumers) being expected to subsidise North American purchasers.
Why not buy it through a US website?
Because, if it's anything like Finale, the whole pricing structure will have been deliberately engineered so that, by the time you have added inflated shipping costs, import tax, and VAT, it will cost pretty much the same. Not that I'm cynical or anything.
G.
MoominDave
19.11.2003, 18:23
plus, anybody know how to get Bb bass to play in the correct octave on Sibelius 2, I mean it's bad enough its in bass clef, but at euphonium pitch?
This should happen automatically if you choose the brass band manuscript paper or create instruments correctly. If it isn't, you should be able to adjust the transposition in the playback/sound controls.
D
Not on version 2.0 - the octave option under transposition change doesn't go low enough! Have they fixed this in later versions? I've got round it by deleting the content of a band score I created in Sib 1, and saving that as the band manuscript paper.
Dave
Has anybody tried the programme CAPELLA? Been using it for a number of years through all the different versions and find it better than Sibelius.
Straightmute
20.11.2003, 00:03
Has anybody tried the programme CAPELLA? Been using it for a number of years through all the different versions and find it better than Sibelius.
I've got Capella up to 2000 when I gave up with it, after using it for 3-4 years. The multiple rests are a fiddle and dynamics and accents etc. are very slow to enter in comparison with Sib. Page navigation is awkward and there are still one or two glitches which crop up in bigger scores.
IMHO Capella is cheap and cheerful, with very good quality printout, but I save so much time using Sibelius.
D
Okiedokie of Oz
20.11.2003, 04:29
My sibelius 3 copy arrived yesterday, and I got straight to work, as I had things I needed to do, which I put off in anticipation of the new software. Now the first thing I wanna comment on, is the price.
$1395!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! Now how many tuba solos can you buy for that??
The layout is very neat, and user friendly. Not too many complex terms, which is always nice for when I have to teach the next conductor/librarian/whoever to use it. It gets very picky with unquantised midi files, and I hate this multiple voice crud. It didn't take too long to learn the basics
the Photoscore took a little reading to understand (I guess this is one instruction book men WILL read????????), but I am gonna push for the upgrade eventually. Doesn't scan slurs and triplets my red rump steak!!!
All in all, a nice effective package. Also, I didn't even use the playback function (MIDI card being used???? whatever!) so this amateur had to use his own noggin :wink:
bassinthebathroom
20.11.2003, 11:33
In conjunction with a MIDI Keyboard, Sibelius is a highly useful compositional aid, and there is no reason at all why (when used correctly, by someone who can play a keyboard to a click in time - myself NOT included, i must add!) the Record/Flexi-time option can't be used as a compositional starting point. Even if you can't play Keyboard to a click, you still end up, normally, with something salvageable!
After all, when a composer/arranger sits at the piano, he/she will play and then write down what he/she has created. The MIDI/Flexi-time combination allows you to do this in one action, thus reducing time spent by up to three quarters (well, when you write as untidily as I do, you can often spend a lot of time thinking to yourself "Huh?!? What the hell's that note?")
That's not to say I don't use the "Old" method at all!! A comission I am currently working on is required in three different formats by the person who comissioned me to write it! I will create a Piano version at the Piano (I do like to be conventional!) and then the other two formats in Sibelius.
Also, if your Piano skills are minimal, as mine are, Sibelius/MIDI is a great time saver!
Naomi McFadyen
20.11.2003, 12:10
Sorry Iain, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one...
I find using a midi keyboard with Sib a pig! I've tried it on several occassions; if you dont play the notes exactly with the click (even if you think you are), you spend half your time correcting the score afterwards.
Sibelius is too accurate... Plus, if your keyboard skills aren't good in the first place, why use it?... Much quicker to plonk in all the notes by hand, in my opinion (and with using the keyboard shortcuts, this process is very fast!)
I only use the keyboard when composing with Cubase and Cakewalk... which, nowadays, isn't very often...
if you dont play the notes exactly with the click (even if you think you are), you spend half your time correcting the score afterwards.
Surely there are quantization settings to alleviate this problem? (there are in Finale at any rate) ie: if you know what the shortest notelength is that you want to enter, you tell the program not to recognise anything shorter. Works for me anyway.
G.
Hilary Mateer
20.11.2003, 12:58
Has anybody tried the programme CAPELLA? Been using it for a number of years through all the different versions and find it better than Sibelius.
I have been using Capella for years - used Cubase on an Atari before that.
I find that combined with Capella Scan it is very good for the purposes for which I use it. Mainly arranging and transposing for a junior church music group.
I also put in tricky bits of test pieces - awkward rhythms etc. and play along with it starting slow and gradually speeding up to the correct tempo.
I quite often play the parts in from an electric piano a line at a time and find the results after I have quantised them to be quite accurate.
The printed output is very good but it can take a long time to put all the dynamics etc in.
It is not very good for play back however. Varying tempo is difficult and dynamics even more so. I found Cubase a lot better for this
I would love to try Sibelius but unfortunately can't afford it at the moment
Naomi McFadyen
20.11.2003, 14:03
Surely there are quantization settings to alleviate this problem? (there are in Finale at any rate) ie: if you know what the shortest notelength is that you want to enter, you tell the program not to recognise anything shorter. Works for me anyway.
G.
Yup, just looked...
Notes... Flexi-time options
;-)
I still wouldnt use it though :-P
Pete Meechan
20.11.2003, 15:16
Maybe some of this (if not all of it) has been said,but...
You don't have to use pencil and paper to compose. I don't think that it is Sibelius that is the problem, it is the discipline of the composer or arranger.
Admittedly, I do some precomposing using pencil/paper, but this often consists of only ine sheet of manuscript, which most the time has more words written on it than notes!
However, I would consider myself a professional, rather than amature, composer. I use Sibelius in a disciplined manner and produce (in the opinion of some highly respected professional musicians - both inside and outside of the brass/banding world) quality music.
However, all of this said, I can see why some people would say that it shouldn't be used. There are some dangerous traps to fall into - such as the copy and paste function (which incidently, if you do need something copying and pasting for a compositional reason, then it is a highly efficient way of getting it done), etc.
Perhaps the most dangerous is the playback feature. First of all, it doesnt have to sound rubbish. If you have it through a poor quality sound card/external sound source (such as a synthesiser), the playback will be poor. If you purchase some quality equipment, such as a Soundblaster Audigy sound card or maybe a Korg Trinity synthesiser, you will get good quality play back.
However(again), just a to reinforce a point that has already been made, the playback isn't how your piece will sound! Another point that should be made, is that neither does a piano. Composing on piano can lead to equally bad dissolusions of your music, as the Sib play back!!!
To summerise, I don't have very much spare time on my hands, and Sibelius lets me make the best use of my time. This however doesn't, in my opinion, affect the quality of my music.
Best
Pete
P.S. I did try my hardest to get my spelling and grammar correct - I know how fussy it can get on here! However (yet again), I do apologise for all errors.
BTW, I still use v1.4, and it is a little beauty - I have tried v2 and v3 and I will be staying with v1.4
I've been using sibelius for quite a few years now and have to say it's been a life saver! As someone with basic piano skills composing at the piano is quite frankly a nightmare. I also have to say that although I have a good technical background in harmony etc. I find it practically impossible to visualise music in my head.
When I was at college I used sibelius for both composition and arranging but usually used manuscript and pencil first. These days I find that most of the stuff I do in sib is for school, worksheets etc. and for this sib2 is excellent.
I have to say I disagree with those people who believe sibelius is difficult to use initially. When I first got the program I had produced 3 or 4 copositions/arrangements in a week whilst learning to use it. I can't say those pieces were any good but hey!! :oops: :oops:
I bang AND Blow!
21.11.2003, 09:47
I have a problem on sibelius ! The percussion is occassionally about half a beat late! This only ever happens when I'm writing on a brass band score though. Is there something wrong with my computer? Or is it just sibelius working so well that it is emulating how the piece will sound when played in a real brass band???
Naomi McFadyen
21.11.2003, 10:44
Errm, it's bound to be a problem with either sib, or your computer... (although I do like the theory of the delayed drummer :P)... the only thing I can think of right now of what it could be is if it's a full band score with all parts playing something, the midi info could be delaying the percussion parts because the texture is so thick... midi cards (meaning, your soundcard) can only take in 16 different midi channels at any one time, any more, and it will cancel out what it conciders to be "less important"...
*short pause*....
lol! :lol:
*cough*... but errrrm, it's rare that it would delay anything :? thats strange...
I'll have a think...
Perhaps someone else has a better idea of what it could be(?)
Okiedokie of Oz
21.11.2003, 12:02
Only having my Sibelius for 3 days, I don't claim to be a pro or anything, but.......
Back when I was using Logic (sooooo long ago now :P ), sometimes, when I go to quantise a section, because of where in the beat a note was, it would look in the score as a "centred" note. However, on playback, it would sound out of place, out of pitch or something. THat's where I would go into a Matrix Editor and have a fiddle. It would show rhythms for what they really were, and any extra hidden notes.
Now I am too lazy to pick up my 10 gazzlion paged manual, so can anyone tell me does Sibelius have anything like this? Otherwise, all I can recommend is export the track as a midi file, load it in Cubase or something else, and have a look........
I bang AND Blow!
21.11.2003, 12:14
Anyone care to translate the last two posts so that they can be understood by a blonde flugel player?
Naomi McFadyen
21.11.2003, 12:21
ok, what I was trying to say, as basic as poss, is that there's so many sounds that the computer cant hack it, so is telling a track or 2 where to go :-P
The 2nd comment is basically saying to save the Sib file, as a midi file, (go to File, Save as, and select the file type as a Midi File)... and open it in a programme like Cubase... see if it does the same thing (the delay you are experiencing)
If you dont have Cubase feel free to send the file to me and I'll have a look for you...
Cantonian
21.11.2003, 16:56
I hate Finlandia!!!
PeterBale
21.11.2003, 17:44
I hate Finlandia!!!
The Karelia Suite's not so bad, though :wink: :!: :lol:
Be lost without Sibelius.
cornetcheese
22.11.2003, 01:26
I've read with interest the opinions expressed here regarding the use of Sibelius as a compositional tool and I have to agree with James' opinion, to a certain extent. However, I believe it depends on how you use the package as to whether it can have a positive or negative effect on the compositional process.
As a composition student myself (and an ex-collegue of James' at the RSAMD) I have to admit that, while I try to mainly on manuscript, I have at times written directly into sibelius, purely because of time constraints. I usually write for orchestral ensembles, however the three commissions for brass band I have had I have written straight onto sibelius due to lack of time and, ironically, these three pieces have been recorded onto CD and get more performances than any orchestral work I have done on manuscript!
This makes me wonder - does writing directly onto sibelius create a substandard composition? I believe the only negative aspect is one of speed of writing - if you write directly onto sibelius, it takes far less time so you find you aren't thinking in as much detail as you would be writing onto manuscript, which is naturally a far slower process forcing you to take more time and thought. The other argument that balance becomes an issue I don't believe is a problem - anyone with a basic knowledge of orchestration will understand which combinations of forces are balanced and which are not, avoiding bad part-writing. This is not the fault of sibelius, merely the thought of the composer/arranger!
Incidentally, the Gordon Jacobs book on orchestration is excellent for anyone who is interested - it may be in an orchestral context, however the same principals of orchestration can be applied to a a brass band context.
If anyone wants to hear the band works I've done the CD's "Forte!" by the Bon-accord silver band and "Taladh Chriosta" by the west lothian band have them recorded - not that I'm trying to plug my stuff or anything!
I hope this has not been too boring ;)
(Duplicate post deleted, Mod)
Alan Duguid
Okiedokie of Oz
22.11.2003, 05:05
Anyone care to translate the last two posts so that they can be understood by a blonde flugel player?
To translate my earlier post:
A lot of programs have other ways to read, edit and enter "music" data. This software isn't always used by musicians as skilled as us, but people with no music training who know what they like. As such, some programs (such as Logic) have extra screens which allow you see your song in different formats. For example, the Matrix Editor in Logic allows you to see music as units of time in pitch like a graph. The have a keyboard on one side, and units of time (beats or seconds) across the top. Then they use bars (like a bar graph) placed and stretched accordingly.
Now, if you were having trouble getting something to fit in time, but it looked correct on the score, having a second fucntion like this is good because you can see in a language that relates better to a computer any timing mistakes you made that looked OK after you "quantised" it.
It would be soooooooo much easier to demonstrate, but maybe someone else can help here.
I have read this topic with great interest!! It seems it started from a critism of tools to 'help' create music. As a non composer my view is . .
It is really irrelevant how the music was created - what matters is,
1) the musically quality of the output
2) the physical quality of the output (ie. print)
I think that on 1) then if people are simply using a tool to create something and that this is actually not that good then surely we have the option not to purchase music by that person? - they will be found out! and here this surely applies whether the piece was written using a tool or paper? - A comment I would make is that I have been to Rogers 'Thornes music' website and that makes use of a fantastic tool that allows you to view the score prior to purchase - this is great it allows you to judge how suitable this is for your band. Pioneering stuff Roger!
On the 2) then I am of the opinion that these tools greatly increase the printed quality.
In conclusion I can't really see that tools have made any difference other than to help those people who have the talent to Compose/arrange better acheive this talent. . . and if you do have this ability . . I salute you! (whether you use tools or not)
. . .and increase the quality of the final print for us players.
So I think they can only be a good thing
Okiedokie of Oz
23.11.2003, 01:35
I second this motion.
James McFadyen
23.11.2003, 10:14
I agree! :wink:
However, composers don't have the luxury of just thinking about the two points made by boneman. We have to ensure personal growth in our abilities, our own distinct compositional voice (that's the important one!), we produce music which is sellable in this ever-increasing commercial world, etc, etc.
I have never been a great fan of using Scorch for my own music, although it easy to see why it's so popular!!
Perhaps, I will use it on my site more often, but I'll have to tweek all my scores for playback, as all my scores are designed for printing and not playback. I not of the opinion that having Scorch will sell more music, since, IMHO, It can swing either way. I think the best way to sell music, is to sell it well, put out fancy zappy press releases, grab people's attention and have them eager to buy your music. From my own experiences, I have found that an effective marketing strategy is the best way to sell my music. I do not dismiss, however, that the buying public, that is the Brass Bands often like to listen before they buy, after all HMV, amongst other stores allow you to do that!!! :wink:
Voldemort
23.11.2003, 14:15
I not of the opinion that having Scorch will sell more music, since, IMHO, It can swing either way.
if you've never used it how would you know. i would imagine other publishers sales have risen with this facility. and how can it swing either way. if they listen to it and dont buy it - fair enough - but would they buy it in the first place?
I think the best way to sell music, is to sell it well, put out fancy zappy press releases, grab people's attention and have them eager to buy your music. From my own experiences, I have found that an effective marketing strategy is the best way to sell my music.
where do you put out your fancy zappy press releases? I've never seen any in the local band press - in fact i've only ever seen them on tmp.
as music is usually non-returnable i would be more inclined to buy something that i can see and hear than something i cannot especially if it is from an unknown composer.
would it not be more viable, as an 'unknown' to invest in the scorch facility than spend hundreds of pounds on glossy adverts.
James McFadyen
23.11.2003, 15:04
I have used Scorch recently with a couple of my pieces all ready.
As I said, it's something I might do, but it really isn't at the top of my list at the moment, especially since I'm very very busy trying to get orders done in a small amount of time as well as composing new works. There are more productive thing publishers should be doing, like getting bands to play and record them, I'm sending 'Chords of the Aztec' to Black Dyke on Monday. This is my way of getting noticed, if you can get the big guys liking and buying your stuff, then to hell with Scorch. I am very determined about things like that, I like to get personal with Brass Bands, send them free music, etc, etc, they test it, they buy more.
The Corries website have just bought 7 copies of my Flower of Scotland arrangment, without even hearing it or seeing it - there are no hard and fast rules in publishing. But I do agree, using Scorch has the possibility of boosting sales, particularly with more unknown faces! :wink:
I would just like to say that I have nothing against Scorch, I think it's brilliant for the people who use it, my philiosophy is different, I'm just taking it from another angle. My company does things that other similar companies don't.
JessopSmythe
23.11.2003, 15:21
I can't seem to get Scorch to play back music. It loads the page fine and lets me read the score but when I click play, nothing happens except a total computer freeze that can only be resolved by pressing control/alt/delete and ending the task. Have tried un installing / re installing scorch but with no success.
HELP :dunno
James McFadyen
23.11.2003, 17:04
Yeah, I had the same problem at one point.
BeatTheSheep
23.11.2003, 23:16
Sibelius (and other programs) have one clear advantage for amateur and professional alike: they make the music very presentable, which make the ensemble concerned play it better!
I've actually witnessed this. A band played a piece of mine and moaned about my (admittedly) terrible small and cramped notation (there are more enjoyable ways of getting RSI than writing parts, after all) and proceeded to play it with contempt...... initially at least.
The same band played a printed version that after a year or so and thought it was wonderful, and played it better. They didn't even notice that it was the same piece. (bad memory attack or what)
So it improved the presentation but not the content.
This is assuming you can actually arrange or compose. However these programs enable people who woundn't previously have been able to do this to achieve it. This means there are a lot more arrangements and compositions around. But not necessarily good ones. So if your pieces are of sufficient quality they will get played and of not they will at least look nice. It's up to the purchasers/ players of the pieces to be clever enough to spot the good pieces from the bad. Let the buyer beware!
James McFadyen
25.11.2003, 20:19
Spot on! :lol:
Seedhouse
21.01.2004, 11:49
Is there anyway of inputting a Bass Cleff Euph part in C, into a Treble Cleff Euph part in Bb on Sibelius 2?
PeterBale
21.01.2004, 12:11
Is there anyway of inputting a Bass Cleff Euph part in C, into a Treble Cleff Euph part in Bb on Sibelius 2?
Surely what you need to do is input it as is in Bass Clef, then transpose it up a ninth accordingly, switching the clef to treble.
Brian Bowen
21.01.2004, 12:18
Is there anyway of inputting a Bass Cleff Euph part in C, into a Treble Cleff Euph part in Bb on Sibelius 2?
Yes!
Is there anyway of inputting a Bass Cleff Euph part in C, into a Treble Cleff Euph part in Bb on Sibelius 2?
Yes!
Although, at the risk of sounding pompous, I would venture to suggest that you would derive more benefit from doing it by hand.
If you force your brain to do the work, then you will be one step nearer being able to do it at sight, which is the important thing.
Just my two-penn'orth.
Regards,
Gareth
Okiedokie of Oz
21.01.2004, 13:02
I agree.....haste makes waste
Dave Payn
21.01.2004, 13:13
Is there anyway of inputting a Bass Cleff Euph part in C, into a Treble Cleff Euph part in Bb on Sibelius 2?
Yes!
Although, at the risk of sounding pompous, I would venture to suggest that you would derive more benefit from doing it by hand.
If you force your brain to do the work, then you will be one step nearer being able to do it at sight, which is the important thing.
Just my two-penn'orth.
Regards,
Gareth
Couldn't agree more. Does help speed up transposition learning in the long run.
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