Retrospectives from last week now on 4BR...

[andyp]

at last..

[SuperMosh]

at last..

So, what does everyone think then?

[Hells Bones]

So, what does everyone think then?

Don't ask

[BbBill]

Scottish 3rd or 4th section isnt on yet as usual, but looking at the other sections that have been written in Scotland, its not much of a write-up, no performance or winning pictures, and quite a sparse report on each band. I could pick up more on each band looking at this forum or Kingdoms forum for some of the bands performances!

Pretty poor attempt of journalism so far I feel, not like what it usually is from 4br....! Im thinking Ive already read our retro in the Bandsman yest before it appears on here, (which Im happy enough at!), but just grumbling at the effort theyve put in, for the time we've had to wait on their opinions!

[SuperMosh]

Scottish 3rd or 4th section isnt on yet as usual, but looking at the other sections that have been written in Scotland, its not much of a write-up, no performance or winning pictures, and quite a sparse report on each band. I could pick up more on each band looking at this forum or Kingdoms forum for some of the bands performances!

Pretty poor attempt of journalism so far I feel, not like what it usually is from 4br....! Im thinking Ive already read our retro in the Bandsman yest before it appears on here, (which Im happy enough at!), but just grumbling at the effort theyve put in, for the time we've had to wait on their opinions!

Got to agree. A little bit miffed that there are no photos. I am sure we posed for one?!

Reading through the retros for all regions it seems some regions may have benefitted from the 4br rep who was there. I don't think the Midlands retros are as good as Yorkshire or WoE.:(

[BbBill]

Thats cos Iwan Fox did those two, pity the other reps didnt do the same writeup as him! (granted that its his website?!)

[madsaz]

From the perspective of the First Section in the North West I think they give a reasonable retrospective. Mind you, of course I don't agree with all of it, I never do. I do however think it highlights the massive difference between how the adjudicator and everyone else in the room felt some of the performances went. I was sat near the 4BR guy when I heard 7 of the performances & he seemed to hear mostly what I heard.

AS always, they are just one man's opinion - so we love them when they are nice to us & hate them when they are horrid.

[Kiz7]

mmm, made my feelings about the top section West of England retro known in the WofE thread. Thought it was VERY harsh and quite insulting to the band's efforts. But what do I know, I wasn't there - I was at Music for Youth with my daughter which has to be a more satsifying experience for the youngsters involved than devoting weeks on a test piece to then get ripped to shreads on an internet website like some of the top section bands were.

[lausonbass]

well i was pretty happy with the comments about forresters and was glad to see that someone took notice that the stage lights went out during our performance. they seemed to get a little confused as they quoted simone rebello who didn't adjudicate until the sunday and made her comment about the 2nd section and not the 1st as is written on 4BR.

I was also a little dissapointed that there were no pics.

[TheMusicMan]

mmm, made my feelings about the top section West of England retro known in the WofE thread. Thought it was VERY harsh and quite insulting to the band's efforts. But what do I know, I wasn't there - I was at Music for Youth with my daughter which has to be a more satsifying experience for the youngsters involved than devoting weeks on a test piece to then get ripped to shreads on an internet website like some of the top section bands were.Don't understand that sorry!

You weren't there; 4BR were there - yet you say their comments were... "VERY harsh"...!!??? How can you say that if you were not there personally to hear any performances and may have only heard comments made by others regarding the performance rather than the performance 1st hand! :confused:

You can't criticise comments if you were not there.

[BBCBass]

You can't criticise comments if you were not there.

I 100% agree as I think tMM nailed it on the head!!

I have to admit, even I was a bit disappointed with the pics...but there are other extenuating circumstances nobody knows about that have caused a bit of a delay.

At least it is getting done.

PJH

[WoodenFlugel]

I'm also a bit confused as to why there are no photos for the Midlands. I was sat behind the two 4BR people for the latter half of the first section and one of them was snapping away on a very impressive looking camera, so I don't see why those photos weren't included.

As for the write up...well, apart from the "postcard from Torquay" headline and the reference to "Simone" for the 1st section (maybe Alan has a secret he isn't telling us?? ;) ) I thought they were fair enough, though hardly worth the (almost) weeks wait.

What I was amused at was their assessment of our soprano player: "OK in big-band scream music but not really what Eric Ball was probably looking for!" which is terrific micky-take material as our soprano player hates anything mildly swing or big band related, so I'm dying for the chance to remind him that 4BR have him as some sort of big band screamer :)

[CubbRep]

I would like to thank 4br for those kind words about our performance as 4th section winners at The (sunny) Belvedere club last Sunday.On a personal note I would like to thank the adjudicators for placing us in a well deserved 1st place.And not being mentioned as dark horses by 4br in the run up to the actual day,It just goes to prove how well a band can play without that illusive nod from 4br.
Although it was a bit nail biting thinking whether we had done it or not.Lets hope that we will do the Midlands proud at Harrogate in the 4th section.Looking forward to finding out what piece we will be playing.Cubbington are now firmly on the map and a band to watch in the future.

CubbRep.

[andylockett86]

would love to see the people who write these retros actually conduct a band an the area. just wonder if they would produce safe performances or whether they would add flare and take the acoustic of the room in to consideration. think every md should be praised for the hours of prep. that goes on running up to the area.just seems to be a lot of md bashing going on out there

[BBCBass]

would love to see the people who write these retros actually conduct a band an the area. just wonder if they would produce safe performances or whether they would add flare and take the acoustic of the room in to consideration. think every md should be praised for the hours of prep. that goes on running up to the area.just seems to be a lot of md bashing going on out there

I have to say (and I'll probably regret this), but the two ways I think American brass bands are better than British Brass Bands are in their percussion sections and MDs. Most all MDs in American bands actually have a degree in music ed or conducting.

I don't think you really want to be defending the calibre of MDs in the UK...granted the top MDs of the top bands are quite good, but even in the bottom championship section bands (e.g. non Yorkshire, Lancashire) and lower sections many of the MDs do not have proper training.

However, I also agree that MDs should be praised for all the work they put in.

[Andy Cooper]

Our retro was just about spot on and exchoed the adjudicators comments of the shed builders being too loud. Shame really as by everyones reaction we would have been well in the mix barring that.

[ssmith]

Interesting to note that Rob Richardson, the 4BR representative at the Midlands area in conversation prior to the anouncement of the results, voiced his opinion that Virtuosi GUS Band were his tip to win the contest. This was also the opinion of the few who heard all performances in the hall that day (excluding the adjudicators of course!).

Obviously he was not so commited in his retrospective write up. I have come to expect 4BR to stick to their pre-contest predictions in the retros "warts an all" as they did with the retro at Butlins when GUS came 1st in the test piece and 4BR had them in 4th and published this in their retro's. I think a more consistent approach would be appreciated by the bands.

[super_sop]

Personaly, I'd just wish they get our ****** name right!!!!!!!

[Tom-King]

I know that I didnt hear them, but being quite as nasty as they were to a certain band is really rather nasty, and is it really neccessary?

([i]Edit: was WoE, Champ)

[4thmandown]

The usual non-descript retrospective for us again - a bit like their preview. I wonder if 4BR were actually in the audience, or got the info from someone down the pub?

Still, it's better than the rather vicious write up they gave the West of England Championship Section. I'd feel rather insulted if I was on the back end of those comments. Treat those comments with a large bucket of salt guys and girls!

[BbBill]

Still no Scottish 3rd or 4th Section..........................!!

[andylockett86]

I have to say (and I'll probably regret this), but the two ways I think American brass bands are better than British Brass Bands are in their percussion sections and MDs. Most all MDs in American bands actually have a degree in music ed or conducting.

I don't think you really want to be defending the calibre of MDs in the UK...granted the top MDs of the top bands are quite good, but even in the bottom championship section bands (e.g. non Yorkshire, Lancashire) and lower sections many of the MDs do not have proper training.

However, I also agree that MDs should be praised for all the work they put in.


oh yeah i'd definately agree to some not being trained. but it takes bottle and hard work. just wish they were given a bit more praise - even if their performance or reading was poor - takes more to stand up and take a band than sit in the audience and droole over mistakes :)

[Morghoven]

The usual non-descript retrospective for us again - a bit like their preview. I wonder if 4BR were actually in the audience, or got the info from someone down the pub?

Still, it's better than the rather vicious write up they gave the West of England Championship Section. I'd feel rather insulted if I was on the back end of those comments. Treat those comments with a large bucket of salt guys and girls!

Be fair to 4BR though - which other banding journalists actually try and write about every single band that competes at the Areas? Of course we don't always agree with what they say, or we wish that our band had been given a bit more attention or whatever, but credit where it's due.

I wasn't at or anywhere near the West of England contest so I have no idea what the standard was like or whether those particular comments are accurate. But I think that if a band doesn't play up to the standard then there's no point in saying anything else, and that goes for any contest at any level.

[Tom-King]

You wouldnt tell a band that had played poorly that they had played well.

However, its more than a little unfair to say some of the things they did, which were way over the top, and vicious, as opposed to informative.

And I know 4br are the only ones who do it, but it still dont make it right for them to come out be downright nasty, does it?

[Will the Sec]

You wouldnt tell a band that had played poorly that they had played well.

Shouldn't. But they do sometimes... :rolleyes:

[Tom-King]

Hehe, well, maybe that should be "you wouldnt tell a band that you knew had played badly, that they had played well" :p

Still, point taken.

I guess the "they" you refer to is meaning any adjudicator?

T

[Anno Draconis]

Frst of all I should say that I'm writing from a easy position, 'cos 4BR were deeply complimentary (as was Ian Brownbill) about the whole 3rd section in Blackpool. However, that aside, I've got the following thoughts I feel the need to share!

1: I've had occasions when I've disagreed with 4BR's coverage of both my band's performances and others (just as I disagree with adjudicators, fellow players and anyone next to me in the bar aterwards). However, when they really tick me off I write to their comments page and they have never failed to publish my response - this is not a privilege I am afforded by the Bandsman or any other band media. You have to admit that they don't censor criticism.

2: Every year I read people moaning about the "disgraceful", "insulting", comments of 4 bars rest. And yet, every year, there's also a load of moaning about how long they take to produce retrospectives, how little they said about such and such a band's "great performance", etc., etc. They really can't win.

3: It's free, and you have a choice. If everyone boycotted the site it would close down in a matter of months. The fact that this hasn't happened indicates that even if they are opinionated, their site is popular. Those who feel grossly insulted could always start their own site, funded out of their own pockets, travel the length and breadth of the country listening to sometimes ropey contest performances and then spend free evenings typing it up for the edification of the banding public, just like Iwan Fox did.

4: I remember when the only coverage of contests you got was in the Bandsman, and it was cursory, dull as ditchwater and limited t the bands in the prizes. At least now we get a choice.

5: The day they start toning down reviews to avoid offending anyone, I will delete the site from my favourites. At least they say what they think; I [I]know that sometimes they can be a bit undiplomatic, but I'd rather they were a bit blunt about my playing than simply wrote bland comments about every band. Plus most of the contributors are amateurs; like adjudicators and football referees they do a tough job that not many people want, with little training, for not much money.

[Thirteen Ball]

Nice of 4BR to deride the yorkshire first section as "All pretty ordinary" with "no strength in depth."

4BR were also particularly unkind to the bands finishing lower down the section, on what was a deceptively hard test piece. For those of us younger players raised on a diet of Sparke, Downie, Wilby et al it is sometimes tricky to adapt to the older style of test-piece, the same way that players of previous generations would have found it difficult to play today's fare. Rather than stating that as a fact, it'd be best not to represent it it as an insult to our respective levels of ability.

And co-op were too agressive and played with "Too much testosterone."

Exuse me? Despite the fact that appears nowhere in our adjudicators comments, our band is over one-third female! Four cornets (3 on front row) flugel, tenor horn, both baritones, one euph, one trombone, and one percussion are all girls!! Surely they noticed that?

Starts to make me wonder about everything they write, if their ears are as good as their eyes. ;)

[andylockett86]

yeah gotta agree with u on that 1 - i listened to the whole section at yorkshire. the retro states after about the 6th band that everything was mediocre {spell?} from there on. a bit harsh. at least the bands tried!!!

[Morghoven]

And co-op were too agressive and played with "Too much testosterone."

Exuse me? Despite the fact that appears nowhere in our adjudicators comments, our band is over one-third female!

Ah, descriptive journalism. How dare they try and use the full creative potential of the English language in order to give people who weren't at a performance a flavour of it?

It's perfectly possible to descibe a performance as having "too much testosterone" without insinuating some sort of medical issue. Well it is for me at least.

And given that it's closed adjudication, exactly how was the adjudicator meant to comment on the gender make-up of a band?

[Morghoven]

yeah gotta agree with u on that 1 - i listened to the whole section at yorkshire. the retro states after about the 6th band that everything was mediocre {spell?} from there on. a bit harsh. at least the bands tried!!!

I'm sure they did try. We also tried, but it doesn't mean we were good enough to do well.

[Roger Thorne]

I really can't understand what the fuss is about regarding the 4BR retrospectives. If you cast your minds back a few years it all started as a bit of fun with their 'Dodgy Predictions', and personally I don't see it as anything else but purely a bit of fun and light hearted banter. The retrospective is one person's opinion of a band's performance. That person may be a well known banding personality or some young player who's offered to help them out - It could be you or I - It really doesn't matter, and its certainly not worth getting worked up about.
The only opinions that should be taken seriously in any contest are that of the adjudicator and Musical Director. Admittedly, it is nice to read positive remarks about your bands performance, but if people spent a little more time analysing their own contest performances and their official adjudicator remarks, I'm sure the staff at 4BR would find a lot more constructive things to write about.

;)

[Hells Bones]

I really can't understand what the fuss is about regarding the 4BR retrospectives. If you cast your minds back a few years it all started as a bit of fun with their 'Dodgy Predictions', and personally I don't see it as anything else but purely a bit of fun and light hearted banter. The retrospective is one person's opinion of a band's performance. That person may be a well known banding personality or some young player who's offered to help them out - It could be you or I - It really doesn't matter, and its certainly not worth getting worked up about.
The only opinions that should be taken seriously in any contest are that of the adjudicator and Musical Director. Admittedly, it is nice to read positive remarks about your bands performance, but if people spent a little more time analysing their own contest performances and their official adjudicator remarks, I'm sure the staff at 4BR would find a lot more constructive things to write about.

;)

Very true, but 4BR has become the "official" website for the banding world, so from being a bit of a lark it is now seen as a more serious source of information and people are beggining to expect a true retrospective

[bbg]

Some good balanced comments re the pros and cons of 4BR contest coverage and general work - would agree that we should not knock the site in general as the "good" far outweighs the "bad" or "controversial"........BUT...come on, gentlemen of 4BR, that's a full week now since the 3rd and 4th sections finished in Dundee (at around 4.30pm), yet the "retros" are up for the higher sections and poor old 3rd and 4th are yet again the "cinderellas"......and - last Saturday saw the "Scottish Championships" NOT the "Scottish Regionals"! Scotland is NOT a region of England, bands travelled from all over our country to compete. OK, the "Scottish" serves also as a qualifier for the GB championships but give us (and our Welsh cousins) due recognition of our nationhood, thanks.

[Kiz7]

Don't understand that sorry!

You weren't there; 4BR were there - yet you say their comments were... "VERY harsh"...!!??? How can you say that if you were not there personally to hear any performances and may have only heard comments made by others regarding the performance rather than the performance 1st hand! :confused:

You can't criticise comments if you were not there.

Yes I can - choice of words is insulting and demeaning

"Lydbrook and St Austell were awful - although on the day they were not alone.

Lacking the experience to overcome nerves is one thing; lacking the ability to overcome the very basics required to play at this level is something else. If you cannot play in tune, or together, lack the ability to grade dynamics and tempi, cannot meet the technical or musical challenges of a difficult, but not overtly daunting test piece, then you do have to question why on earth they are competing in the championship section.

Bands are graded according to their record of achievement here of course, but it should never disguise the fact that promoting a band for the sake of it is a recipe for disaster - and Lydbrook were disastrous.

Supporters and players alike may feel we are being unjust with the criticism (and may suggest who are we to say it), but someone has to, because we are sure Lydbrook were not alone here in Torquay, or around the country in not being able to play the piece to championship standard. The movement cannot afford to equate quantity to quality anymore and out of the 11 bands here on the Sunday only six met the demands of the piece. Heaven help if the Music Panel had picked ‘St. Magnus'.

Lydbrook could not play the piece and as admirable as their efforts may have been, their performance had little in it to commend. It had the odd moment, but that was all and it must have been a chastening experience to work so hard for so little musical reward.

Robert Morgan, Chairman of the BFBB, who played on the solo cornet bench must surely realise that the time has come for his organisation to press for a National re-grading of bands – and the plethora of withdrawals around the country at this level is no one off coincidence either – the two are linked."

from the 4barsrest retrospective.

[Anno Draconis]

4BR has become the "official" website for the banding world,

You'll upset John!

Kiz7, I can understand why the exact terminology used might ruffle some feathers in the SW, but were they wrong? Were the bands mentioned done a dis-service? I don't know, I wasn't there, but the results seem to reflect 4BR's comments.

[Morghoven]

Very true, but 4BR has become the "official" website for the banding world...

Err...when was that decision taken? Did the BFBB get together with all the contest controllers and other national federations and decide it should be so?

No. It has gained it's unofficial status because lots of people all over the world read it and use it. Which means they must be doing something right.

[Hells Bones]

You'll upset John!

You know what I mean, 4BR is the "Official" website for results, tMP is the "Official" website for debate and meeting and pretty much everything else (even a Dating Agency!)

[IanHeard]

Some good balanced comments re the pros and cons of 4BR contest coverage and general work - would agree that we should not knock the site in general as the "good" far outweighs the "bad" or "controversial"........BUT...come on, gentlemen of 4BR, that's a full week now since the 3rd and 4th sections finished in Dundee (at around 4.30pm), yet the "retros" are up for the higher sections and poor old 3rd and 4th are yet again the "cinderellas"......and - last Saturday saw the "Scottish Championships" NOT the "Scottish Regionals"! Scotland is NOT a region of England, bands travelled from all over our country to compete. OK, the "Scottish" serves also as a qualifier for the GB championships but give us (and our Welsh cousins) due recognition of our nationhood, thanks.

Surely Scotland is a "region" of Great Britain in a banding sense albeit a nation in it`s own right?
Just be happy that you have the opportunity to become the 3rd or 4th section champion band of your own country(Scotland)under the current system this is an opportunity not afforded to us nasty English!
4BR for the record is based in Wales so you would think they would cater for your celtic sensibilities, did you think they were based in England?

[bbg]

My grammar maybe wasn't the best - didn't mean to point the finger solely at 4BR , even this esteemed site refers to Scottish "regionals" - substitute the word "nationals" and give a more accurate description of the event?

See y'all at the English Regionals in Harrogate!

[smithy42]

Yes I can - choice of words is insulting and demeaning

"Lydbrook and St Austell were awful - although on the day they were not alone.

Lacking the experience to overcome nerves is one thing; lacking the ability to overcome the very basics required to play at this level is something else. If you cannot play in tune, or together, lack the ability to grade dynamics and tempi, cannot meet the technical or musical challenges of a difficult, but not overtly daunting test piece, then you do have to question why on earth they are competing in the championship section.

Bands are graded according to their record of achievement here of course, but it should never disguise the fact that promoting a band for the sake of it is a recipe for disaster - and Lydbrook were disastrous.

Supporters and players alike may feel we are being unjust with the criticism (and may suggest who are we to say it), but someone has to, because we are sure Lydbrook were not alone here in Torquay, or around the country in not being able to play the piece to championship standard. The movement cannot afford to equate quantity to quality anymore and out of the 11 bands here on the Sunday only six met the demands of the piece. Heaven help if the Music Panel had picked ‘St. Magnus'.

Lydbrook could not play the piece and as admirable as their efforts may have been, their performance had little in it to commend. It had the odd moment, but that was all and it must have been a chastening experience to work so hard for so little musical reward.

Robert Morgan, Chairman of the BFBB, who played on the solo cornet bench must surely realise that the time has come for his organisation to press for a National re-grading of bands – and the plethora of withdrawals around the country at this level is no one off coincidence either – the two are linked."

from the 4barsrest retrospective.

I was there and fortunate to be part of one of the Top six Championship section bands. I heard Lydbrook, and yes, they struggled, but they gave a decent performance (a baptism of fire off the deaded No.1!). The 4BR comments were harsh and could potentially be extremely damaging. These sort of things can destroy bands.
There is a very fine line between being part of a succesful 1st section band and a struggling top section band, believe me!

[IanHeard]

See y'all at the English Regionals in Harrogate!

As an Englishman I see it as the "Lower Section English National" with the odd invited guest or two!:)
Joking aside 4BR provides a much needed breath of fresh air to our rather "victorian" hobby, despite the fact that they once desciribed my trombone playing as akin to a 250cc Yamaha with a split exhaust!

[bbg]

Comparing a trombone to a 250cc Yamaha? That's a bit harsh..........on the motorbike! Sorry, couldn't resist the obvious joke there, even though it's a bit rich coming from a middle aged back row cornet player....