Time to call time on the foreign legion?

[JR]

It would appear 2007 is their finest hour
Seemingly never before in the field of banding conflict has so many Euros and Krone been owed by so many to quite a few Norwegians and Belgians...
I see 4br has again "flagged" up (sorry) this recent development
Like many other things in modern band contesting - it's out of hand folks!
We are going to have to call a halt before an entire Scandinavian cornet section is deployed to get a band to the area (Alliance Brass - have you thought of this?!)
Seriously though, come on, let's face it, Dyke can't borrow from Brighouse, Fodens can't borrow from Faireys, Polysteel can't borrow from Woodfalls etc etc - so why should any band be able to borrow from top class Euro stock?
Let's close this loophole for 2008. Oh, and whilst we're at it, it works both ways - let's ask the New Zealand Championships (and others) to stop allowing British ringers...

John Roberts

[johnmartin]

Couldn't agree more. Makes a mockery of having a registry at all. All that would be needed would be for the players registration to be checked with the relevant authority in their country of residence. That would of course, still leave a loophole for those countries that don't operate a registry.

We already have similar structures in place for cross border transfers and guest players between the English and Scottish registrys so I see no reason why this couldn't be extended at the very least to the top European nations.

[Baritonedeaf]

Good article in the Brass Herald about the need for a central registry or at least co-operation between registries...

(tMP Xmas Quiz Win doing well for me...! :-D)

[bassinthebathroom]

Seriously though, come on, let's face it, Dyke can't borrow from Brighouse, Fodens can't borrow from Faireys, Polysteel can't borrow from Woodfalls etc etc - so why should any band be able to borrow from top class Euro stock?

As every UK band is free to do it, surely that creates a level playing field and does that not cancel out the whole argument? Unfortunately, the number of top level performers in the UK willing to play for a Brass Band is continuing to dwindle, and the best bands are finding it hard to find suitable permanent replacements to fill empty chairs. Rather than compromise standards in the long term, using foreign players the 'cover' in the short term maintains the band's standard, increasing the chance of a good contest result and, logically, the band's 'pull' for new, quality (British) players. If it's available across the board, then this loophole seems totally fair (by being an option for all), but equally, if changed, also a fair system for all then.

[BigHorn]

As every UK band is free to do it, surely that creates a level playing field and does that not cancel out the whole argument?

You are making a big assumption here. Not all bands could afford to fly in foreigners and pay them high fees. The promotion/relegation issue should not be determined by a bands ability to pay guest players. It should be on the bands own inherent strengths - that not only includes their musicianship but also their ability to manage their band properly and retain their player's services.

[Chunky]

You are making a big assumption here. Not all bands could afford to fly in foreigners and pay them high fees. The promotion/relegation issue should not be determined by a bands ability to pay guest players. It should be on the bands own inherent strengths - that not only includes their musicianship but also their ability to manage their band properly and retain their player's services.

Excellent post BigHorn. How many bands can actually afford to do this?

To continue with this practice you will create a system where only the wealthiest bands will ever be able to compete at the top level. So how can it be a level playing field?

I have to say that I believe this practice of buying in talent from overseas band should be stopped.

[Ipswich trom]

Excellent post BigHorn. How many bands can actually afford to do this?

To continue with this practice you will create a system where only the wealthiest bands will ever be able to compete at the top level. So how can it be a level playing field?

I have to say that I believe this practice of buying in talent from overseas band should be stopped.

How about stopping the practice of buying in talent full stop! I am aware of a band paying around £500 for one player (not foreign) for this years regional contest. What's the point if there is no band or at least only 60% week in week out. We all use deps on occassions, it's unavoidable but the things that go on for contesting are crazy.

[Jan H]

I know a couple of these people who have made a trip to the UK to play in some of the contests. I think I can say that most them consider it an honour to be asked to play with a UK band at one of the famous contests (regionals, nationals, British open), which would otherwhise be impossible for them. They certainly don;t do it for the money.

In Belgium, the registration system is more flexible than in the UK, but there are severe restrictions on foreign players. I think these rules were originally introduced to prevent the "import" of british soloists especially for the national championships. But because of this rule, a couple of bands that have Dutch members (which is not so unusual for bands close to the border), can't compete in the nationals either. So some people are proposing to change the "foreigners" rule.

[Ipswich trom]

I know a couple of these people who have made a trip to the UK to play in some of the contests. I think I can say that most them consider it an honour to be asked to play with a UK band at one of the famous contests (regionals, nationals, British open), which would otherwhise be impossible for them. They certainly don;t do it for the money.



If that's the case then maybe we should have European wide registration or even world wide so that if you do sign for another band you can't just hop it back just like we can't within Britain

[Darth_Tuba]

But you will still be able to pay for professional non-brass band players to fill seats. To be honest, I'm not as concerned about the problem of overseas players coming in as I am about the underlying problem it highlights, i.e. the dirth of quality brass players playing in bands. I'm sure you'd all complain even more when instead of getting people from abroad they start "poaching" all your best players with 4 weeks to go 'til your area.

[bigcol]

Bands work hard raising funds through concerts and other avenues, makes sense to spend the money on the areas. This is the most important 6 weeks of serious contesting bands, and if they have a budget to pay expenses for players from abroad then so be it. How much do the top professionals conductors cost? It isn't 'wrong' in the strictest sense.

As with most things in life, if you close one loophole, other imaginative ways will be found of exploiting another. Until some form of borrowing is approved for the areas, whether it is national or international, these things will happen.

I've also anecdotally noticed that there are more people from other musical areas i.e. orchestral and wind bands being drafted in for national contests. It's not an empirical study but seems to be another tactic in filling important seats with quality.

[tubafran]

Interesting to read that Ransomes have brought in players from Europe because it was the cheapest option available to them:

"Steve also pointed out that the band had tried to sign players in the UK, but for a variety of reasons, including money, it was not feasible. “Other players we approached couldn’t commit to the band for the contest whilst others were asking ridiculous amounts of money. The Norwegian option was the best for us both musically and financially.”

[Chunky]

How about stopping the practice of buying in talent full stop! I am aware of a band paying around £500 for one player (not foreign) for this years regional contest. What's the point if there is no band or at least only 60% week in week out. We all use deps on occassions, it's unavoidable but the things that go on for contesting are crazy.

I think if a band decides to pay a UK based player 'expenses' (however excessive they may seem) to sign for them its difficult to stop them from doing it, as at the time they will only be registered with one 'British' band.

However being allowed to sign for different bands in different countries is slightly different and should be looked at.

[andromeda]

I know a couple of these people who have made a trip to the UK to play in some of the contests. I think I can say that most them consider it an honour to be asked to play with a UK band at one of the famous contests (regionals, nationals, British open), which would otherwhise be impossible for them. They certainly don;t do it for the money.

.

...but the same people then return to play for their own bands in their own Nationals and in the European! - thus making a mockery of the principle of registration

Sam

[Mr_Euniverse]

Totally agree with JR's first post. If a band has to buy players in to get them through to the Final's, what happens actually in the Finals? Do they have to get in same players or do they use the fact they're in the Finals as a carrot in order to poach, steal and kidnap players from other bands.

Personally I'd much prefer to be in a band that gets to London because we did it as a team and the rehearsal after the contest has exactly the same players as the stage.

It's Man Utd buying in a Scandinavian player to get them further in Europe!! Oops have I said too much!!

[andromeda]

Personally I'd much prefer to be in a band that gets to London because we did it as a team and the rehearsal after the contest has exactly the same players as the stage.

It's Man Utd buying in a Scandinavian player to get them further in Europe!! Oops have I said too much!!

I agree - and Man Utd, who had Larsson on loan (but is longer on their books) will not be able to "borrow" him brass band style, later on will they?

Sam

[Ipswich trom]

I agree - and Man Utd, who had Larsson on loan (but is longer on their books) will not be able to "borrow" him brass band style, later on will they?

Sam

No, they won't but he can go back to play for his own club as he didn't sign permanently for Utd. In banding for the regionals it is different, you have to be a registered player with the band and as such cannot simply return from whence you came immediately after the event! This is the point, the foreign players playing in this years events can go back to their home bands whereas if any of us did it in this country, we can't!

[Bungle]

This is a tricky one, I think we need to be flexible, allowing bands to get players to fill gaps, so they can enter with a full band, but I think we need to limit the numbers, maybe to a maximum of two.

Ask any English football league manager why they have foreign players and they will probably say there isn't the talent or they are asking too much money. Sound familiar?

[HUDDSBASSBONE]

I think we also need to be a little bit flexible here. Our own band, as quoted on 4br, utilized the talents of a Belgian cornet player. This was a very last minute thing, due to illness, and there were no other british options around because of time constraints. What would people have preferred? To see a band go on and use the principal cornet player from the previous band? This is a risky move at the best of times, but before such an important contest, its not fair on the sub player concerned. the whole band, or the paying audience who may not get a band's best performance.

[Col]

Good Point John perhaps if all those bands that can afford those kind of expense levels invested the same amount in the development of players especially younger players then the fears of lower standards and not enough players might dissolve.

What would the reaction be if all First and Championship Bands had to have a strong junior/training regimes to gain promotion as Rugby League Superleague Teams have to do.

[Alan MacRae]

Another "downside" I can see is the effect on the band for the rest of the year, contests aside.

Lets say some Champ section band has key seats filled by paid foreign players for contests only. These players aren't around to play at the concerts which go on all year in order to raise enough money to participate in said concerts. Then audiences expect to hear the best of the best, and get effectively a "B" band. So they slowly stop attending. Income drops off, concert booking ebb away, and soon the band doesn't have the money to pay for the contest players. The band ultimately will lose its standing and drop down the sections. The situation is self defeating in the long run.

Maybe they can get round it with sponsorship deals, but run of the mill unsponsored bands would struggle to exist in only a few short years. And it needn't be just foreign players, but paid pros from orchestras, military bands etc, although the travel requirements will make this more critical.

You might even say that this is evident in the withdrawals of some bands at this year's regionals.

[andromeda]

I think we also need to be a little bit flexible here. Our own band, as quoted on 4br, utilized the talents of a Belgian cornet player. This was a very last minute thing, due to illness, and there were no other british options around because of time constraints. What would people have preferred? To see a band go on and use the principal cornet player from the previous band?


...if it's due to illness this is what bands have to do
In your case it wouldnt have been too bad - you'd have got the services of your ex top man!
How "very last minute" is "very last minute"? - did he fly in the night before or is there more to this?
I trust Mr Holmes is now fit to return

Sam

[brass journo]

surely the idea of bringing one or two overseas or professional players in just for a contest also negates the whole idea of banding... ie. teamwork?

I would hope that in any band, but especially in a top band, the rest of the players in the band or section work together more closely to cover for the missing part. Maybe this is where the movement is going wrong - it's not about teamwork anymore but indiviuals and egos.

[iggmeister]

I don't see a problem. Bringing in one or 2 players is hardly destroying a team. Would the remaining 25 players consider that they are less of a team for the fact that they have a couple of deps? I doubt it.

Most foreign players I know who have depped in this way have certainly not done it for the money. The expense has gone in getting them to this country in the first place. They play because they want to play, not because it will earn them a quid or two.

We live in the European Union. We have free movement of people dont forget. Football analogies do not tend to solve problems unless you are in a pub and had at least 6 ales. I love them too but they are not really that relevant in the band contest scenario.

Also 4barsrest were going on about the Norwegians and how great it was that they had a relaxed attitude towards registration (see their retrospectives on Norwegian Nationals) then have a gripe about this issue. It doesn't seem very consistent. My understanding is that there is nothing stopping a british registered player from going over to play in Norway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Contesting is a game. The rules are there and none are being broken. Music doesn't care for rules in that sense. Surely for the audience, the better the performance the better it is for them whether they have all home grown full time registered talent or the odd euro dep. Credit to those bands who subscribe fully to the philosophy that they will use only their own but should the rules be changed to benefit them?

Igg

[Thirteen Ball]

Some very good points made both ways – Great thread JR.

The Henrik Larsson comparison is not 100% correct, as he is a professional so it’s only right he should be paid for his time. The other thing is, he’s not a registered player for Man U, so would be ineligible in some competitions.

What we need is a fee-free transfer system, like amateur league football, with a central player registry – similar to football. For example, If a player turns out for Hartlepool in the FA Cup on loan, then returns to Newcastle, he then is “Cup-tied” so cannot play for Newcastle in the same competition. I understand that the Uefa cup and champions league have similar rules.

Surely if someone turns out for (for example) Fodens at the regionals, they should be “cup-tied” from competing for any band in a regional competition – not just a UK band.

As such, if you play at a UK national finals for one band, unless you transfer properly to a different nation’s brass band association you shouldn’t be able to turn out in a foreign finals.

As for bands not being able to find quality at home, this really burns me up. How is anybody supposed to get better in this game if top bands don’t take a chance on them? Co-op took a chance on me, when I was in a nothing sort of non-contesting band, and in three weeks I played a first section area piece, where we finished fourth. They’ve had three years service out of me now, and I’m twice the player I was when I joined – though I’ve still a lot to learn.

If they’d got in a paid dep, I’d still be playing forty fathoms for YBS juniors – or might even have quit plaing.

[davidquinlan]

As for bands not being able to find quality at home, this really burns me up. How is anybody supposed to get better in this game if top bands don’t take a chance on them? Co-op took a chance on me, when I was in a nothing sort of non-contesting band, and in three weeks I played a first section area piece, where we finished fourth. They’ve had three years service out of me now, and I’m twice the player I was when I joined – though I’ve still a lot to learn.


I was about to make a similar point. Flying in deps from abroad rather than give the opportunity to an up and coming player, or shuffle current players around (if possible). Bands tend to try to avoid risks such as playing with players who are not tried and tested. But without such tests, how do other players improve or step up a level.
It kind of highlights the more sporting aspect of band contests... win at all costs rather than the artistic, educational, musical self improvement side of things.
On the otherhand, bands who do this could claim that they try new talent / other players for concerts and other such engagements and they do not meet the required level.
However, it ain't against any rule a the moment..

[Darth_Tuba]

As for bands not being able to find quality at home, this really burns me up. How is anybody supposed to get better in this game if top bands don’t take a chance on them? Co-op took a chance on me, when I was in a nothing sort of non-contesting band, and in three weeks I played a first section area piece, where we finished fourth. They’ve had three years service out of me now, and I’m twice the player I was when I joined – though I’ve still a lot to learn.

Bands will give people plenty of chance I think but players have to put themselves forward. I've placed many an advert to receive no responses, and of course speaking to players directly to steal them away from whatever band they are with is always frowned upon and seen as that mythical thing "poaching". There is a shortage of quantity rather than quality I think. I don't know many bands of any section who don't end up short of players at some point in the year. At the end of the day, my band has a core group of players who are there all the time. If we have to get the odd one or two in for a contest to fill the seats, so be it. Some bands pay their permanent players when others can't afford to. Should that be stopped as well?

[johnflugel]

Some bands pay their permanent players when others can't afford to. Should that be stopped as well?

Not sure exactly how I stand on the Foreign Legion thing, but Chris makes a good point here. Many UK players are regularly "paid" to occupy chairs in some bands. There is an argument here as to which is more damaging to the movement - UK players taking money for doing something that other (sometimes better) players do for nothing or European players flying in for a week before a contest?

Good subject Mr Roberts.

[ploughboy]

surely the idea of bringing one or two overseas or professional players in just for a contest also negates the whole idea of banding... ie. teamwork?

I would hope that in any band, but especially in a top band, the rest of the players in the band or section work together more closely to cover for the missing part. Maybe this is where the movement is going wrong - it's not about teamwork anymore but indiviuals and egos.

yep, and results!

[mehans]

Since there have been a few questions on the Norwegian registry system; For a player to be able to play with a Norwegian Band in our championships you must be registred with the band at least six weeks before the contest. For foreign people they must show a permanent adress in Norway for at least six months before the contest to be able to play in the Norwegian Champs. The only way a player like Alan Morrison could play in our nationals this years was to cover a ill player on very short notice. The band needs to present a medical report from a doctor to let a sub player on stage. Profesionals can play with a band if they have been in the federations database as a member for the band for more than six months.

[robcav]

Since there have been a few questions on the Norwegian registry system; For a player to be able to play with a Norwegian Band in our championships you must be registred with the band at least six weeks before the contest. For foreign people they must show a permanent adress in Norway for at least six months before the contest to be able to play in the Norwegian Champs. The only way a player like Alan Morrison could play in our nationals this years was to cover a ill player on very short notice. The band needs to present a medical report from a doctor to let a sub player on stage. Profesionals can play with a band if they have been in the federations database as a member for the band for more than six months.

This seems like a pretty fair and rigorous system. Does the British Registry operate a similar system? If not, perhaps it should.

Having read the many excellent posts on this fascinating thread, I find myself in an ambivalent position. I have been in bands which have used professional players in key positions, and paid the going MU rate for their services, because the alternative would have been to forego an important contest appearance. So, much as I might not like the fact that my band at that time was not a 100% amateur group pitting its musical wits against bands which seemed full of semi-pros and pro musicians, I can't in principle complain. In this era of open European frontiers it's difficult to see an objection to 'foreign' players being used by British bands if they are not breaking British Registry rules. Perhaps the answer, if we want to restrict player movement, is a European or worldwide registry, but I somehow doubt there is the political will within the movement to undertake the organisation of such a system.

I can fully understand the point of view of those who call into question use of overseas players. I suspect, though I can't be sure, that it's only the top bands who do it and that what irks and frustrates people is the sense of unfairness that such bands with money, but more importantly with the contacts, can fill their ranks with experience whilst the rest of us find ourselves having to patiently nurture the innocent, less experienced player.
However, looking at the bigger picture I know which I'd rather be doing. The quick fix - the sticking plaster over the gaping wound - doesn't improve the long term prognosis. If bands aren't prepared to search out, teach and nurture the talent growing on their own doorstep, and then take a risk with them, they shouldn't be surprised that they're struggling to fill empty chairs.

PS: Well done to Skelmanthorpe B band on their 2nd place at the 4th section area contest. 100% homegrown Yorkshire talent, no added overseas ingredients, expertly nurtured by Phil Garlick.

[OneTonBass]

Theres always talk about shortage of quality players.
From my understanding each band can register up to 40 players.
On a contest stage there is normally 25 + 3-4 percussionists. = 29 max

So what happends to the other 10 players per band?
I'm sure some out of the 10 some would probabably be willing to play for someone else, or even a lower section band if asked.

One suggestion could be that a band registers it's contest band a month before the contest, and declares which surplus players could be put into a pool.
Each band could then play up to 2 pool players from any section.

This might solve the problem of some bands keeping squads of quality players that could be used by another band of a equal or lower section.

Just an idea.

[andromeda]

Since there have been a few questions on the Norwegian registry system; For a player to be able to play with a Norwegian Band in our championships you must be registred with the band at least six weeks before the contest. For foreign people they must show a permanent adress in Norway for at least six months before the contest to be able to play in the Norwegian Champs.


Let's introduce this in Britain with immediate effect http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Sam

[TORBAY BRASS BAND]

Interesting debate here and one which will continue. After all bands could be forgiven for thinking we have the cash we have raised why didn't we think of that? It appears it might be less hassle than recruiting someone from this country and financially it might work out the same. Some argue you should use the best players available for a contest but should that be at the expense of people who attend every practice and play all the notes etc; but its still not good for some other prima donnas in the band or the committee? But then why do we contest? Is it the taking part and the meeting of other like minded souls? Is it to measure ourselves musically against others? Is it purely to win at all costs? One comment made was about the level playing field. Well in contesting,what about little things like everyone being given the opportunity to play their own part rather than it being passed over - like the back row cornet part being given to the front row? There are a lot more things like this which happen and is another topic - but do they create a level playing field? We have not used foreign players unless you are going to count Welsh, Brummies, or Yorkies as foreign on the basis of dialect. Our band has though had continual sniping from other bands locally about our use of marines playing with us. Is this any different to the foreign legion? These guys pay their subs and play with us as often as their work permits - any different to a shift worker in the band? Unless there is a change in the rules and perhaps that would have to be internationally then we may just have to bite the bullet and accept it for now. One concern for all bands is when we see top class bands withdrawing due to lack of players for whatever reason.
Anyway, on a lighter note - any overseas player disappointed in not be asked to play over here for the areas contact me any instrumentation sure I can give you an opportunity to play here - even in a contest!

[Ipswich trom]

Theres always talk about shortage of quality players.
From my understanding each band can register up to 40 players.
On a contest stage there is normally 25 + 3-4 percussionists. = 29 max

So what happends to the other 10 players per band?
I'm sure some out of the 10 some would probabably be willing to play for someone else, or even a lower section band if asked.

One suggestion could be that a band registers it's contest band a month before the contest, and declares which surplus players could be put into a pool.
Each band could then play up to 2 pool players from any section.

This might solve the problem of some bands keeping squads of quality players that could be used by another band of a equal or lower section.

Just an idea.

What happens, certainly in our case, is that we do have other players registered but the surplus are usually people that played in the past and have left the band, maybe given up in some cases but we retain registrations just in case. Eventually they may get cancelled, normally when someone new comes along. Having 40 players available is a dream for most of us I'm afraid!

[JR]

I'm glad this has stimulated some debate
So far I particularly liked Andi "13 ball" Cook's suggestion that European players should be "cup-tied" i.e not allowed to play in their own Nationals if they have done so over here.
I was also fascinated by the revelation from the Norwegian contributor that players must prove Norwegian residence for 6 months prior to their Nationals. If adopted here, this would solve most of the problems

John Roberts

[PeterBale]

I'm glad this has stimulated some debate
So far I particularly liked Andi "13 ball" Cook's suggestion that European players should be "cup-tied" i.e not allowed to play in their own Nationals if they have done so over here.
I was also fascinated by the revelation from the Norwegian contributor that players must prove Norwegian residence for 6 months prior to their Nationals. If adopted here, this would solve most of the problems

John Roberts

That would be true if it could be properly regulated, but I'm sure there would be people ready to provide an "address of convenience" if it would help circumvent the regulations. I also like the idea of players being "cup-tied", but don't see much likelihood of anything like that being implimented as long as bands in the English Championship (which brings qualification for the Europeans) are allowed to borrow several players.

[johnflugel]

Those who strongly disagree with the 'foreign legion' coming over - what do you think about the bands in the UK who can afford to play their players salaries/retainers? Is this any different?

Also, if a band chooses to fly in a 'foreign' conductor...do we think this is better/worse?

As mentioned previously, I have no strong opinions on this subject....just playing devil's advocate........

[iggmeister]

That would be true if it could be properly regulated, but I'm sure there would be people ready to provide an "address of convenience" if it would help circumvent the regulations. I also like the idea of players being "cup-tied", but don't see much likelihood of anything like that being implimented as long as bands in the English Championship (which brings qualification for the Europeans) are allowed to borrow several players.

Only 2 are allowed.

JR also says that the Norwegian model will "solve most of the problems". What are the problems? I cant see any. Just people who don't approve of borrowing foreign players.

This seems a bit of an anal debate to me. Generally, if bands bring in ringers, people will criticise them for any achievement they gain from such practices. I think this is a similar situation. I just haven't heard an argument yet which convinces me that there is a good reason for changing the current rules. I'm open minded about this issue and am waiting to be convinced.

Igg

[BBCBass]

Anyway, on a lighter note - any overseas player disappointed in not be asked to play over here for the areas contact me any instrumentation sure I can give you an opportunity to play here - even in a contest!Tempting offer :D

As one of the "foreign legion" I thought I'd offer my 2p.

I have flown over twice to play at contests (both flights at my own expense) as our band only contests every other year here...that's once every two years!!

Needless to say the experience and enthusiasm I (and others) have gained by doing so spreads a to our bands and banding community. Ohio is hosting their own brass band event next month for the first time and it is in large part due to the experiences that I (and several others) have had in our trips to the UK.

So, I might ask what is more important...the greater good of brass banding in the UK...or the greater good of brass banding in the world? (not that I'm convince foreign imports are damaging to UK banding)

[JR]

Only 2 are allowed.

JR also says that the Norwegian model will "solve most of the problems". What are the problems? I cant see any. Just people who don't approve of borrowing foreign players.

This seems a bit of an anal debate to me. .

Igg

The problems are centred around the registration of players - there's nothing "anal" about it for pete's sake
The Norwegians are not daft. They are trying to prevent British ringers being brought in thus devaluing their national event.
We need to safeguard our Nationals in the same way. Protectionist? maybe, but it's a debate worth having. It works the other way as well - in 2005 my then band , Yorks Co-oP competed in the New Zealand Championships. At least 3 NZ bands flew in famous British soloists to enhance their performances. This practice, in my opinion, totally falsified their efforts

JR

[JR]

Those who strongly disagree with the 'foreign legion' coming over - what do you think about the bands in the UK who can afford to play their players salaries/retainers? Is this any different?

Also, if a band chooses to fly in a 'foreign' conductor...do we think this is better/worse?

As mentioned previously, I have no strong opinions on this subject....just playing devil's advocate........

Good to see you joining in John (and v hard luck last week...)

Paying retainers/salaries is a slightly different argument as , at least the retained players are registered with the one band and cannot play for a different band in a different area - unlike at present with the Euro contingent free to return to their "home" countries and turn out in their Nationals as if nothing had happened.

Conductors, British or otherwise have never been subject to registration - Halliwell and Mortimer used to take 4 or 5 bands in the same top section contest - could you imagine this now?

John R

[iggmeister]

The problems are centred around the registration of players - there's nothing "anal" about it for pete's sake
The Norwegians are not daft. They are trying to prevent British ringers being brought in thus devaluing their national event.

Is this genuinely the reason their rule is what it is? As for this topic being anal, it is a discussion about rules. Generally, people get very uppety about rules and infringements and the likes. I just like to play and make music - in fact I play music to try to get away from arguing about rules! I also like to listen to music being made and tend to like playing or hearing it being played as best as possible. If Norbert Schnorbert comes over from a European band, plays for a UK band and improves the performance, then as an audience member I'm all for it. As a player, the band members can learn from that. How does that devalue our event? Surely it enhances the contest because the quality of music making on show is greater?


We need to safeguard our Nationals in the same way. Protectionist? maybe, but it's a debate worth having. It works the other way as well - in 2005 my then band , Yorks Co-oP competed in the New Zealand Championships. At least 3 NZ bands flew in famous British soloists to enhance their performances. This practice, in my opinion, totally falsified their efforts

JR

You may have proven here the point(s) raised in my previous post;)

I understand that too much of a good thing can be a bad thing and you need to nurture your young talent for long term survival (something that my band does regularly) but those young players can also benefit from such people.

(Still not convinced) Igg

[Jan H]

The Norwegians are not daft. They are trying to prevent British ringers being brought in thus devaluing their national event.Is this genuinely the reason their rule is what it is?
In Belgium we have a similar rule to prevent foreign "ringers" from playing in our nationals. This was originally done not because these ringers would devalue our contest, but because the organisers wanted to encourage our bands to be selfsufficient, so they would work harder on their own development instead of getting a scratch band together every year.
Like I said before, this now causes problems for several bands that have Dutch players. There is a n exemption in the rules, Bands that are registered in a town close to the Dutch borders can have Dutch players that are also living close to the border. If I remember correctly "close" is defined as 15 kilometers. Of course this is rediculous, because lots of players (even Dutch ;) ) are willing to travel much further to rehearse with a good band. That's why some calls are being made to relax the "foreigners" rule.
In the Netherlands there is no rule about foreign players though. Brass band Limburg for example (from the South East of the Netherlands) has several Belgian members. Most of these are registered with a Belgian band as well, so they can play at both the Belgian and the Dutch nationals. No one I know considers this to be a problem...

[andromeda]

In Belgium we have a similar rule to prevent foreign "ringers" from playing in our nationals. This was originally done not because these ringers would devalue our contest, but because the organisers wanted to encourage our bands to be selfsufficient, so they would work harder on their own development instead of getting a scratch band together every year.

Sounds like a good rule
So you agree your Mr Van Looveren should not be able to play for a British band at the area as well as his own Belgian band?

Sam

[Jan H]

In Belgium we have a similar rule to prevent foreign "ringers" from playing in our nationals. This was originally done not because these ringers would devalue our contest, but because the organisers wanted to encourage our bands to be selfsufficient, so they would work harder on their own development instead of getting a scratch band together every year.
Sounds like a good rule
So you agree your Mr Van Looveren should not be able to play for a British band at the area as well as his own Belgian band?
I think it's a good rule too (except for the part about Dutch players), but I don't agree with your statement about Raf Van Looveren. Some countries don't allow foreign players (Norway, Belgium, ...) others do (Netherlands, UK, New Zealand, ...). I think every country should make up there own rules, so I shouldn't interfere with the British rules. If Britain would stop allowing foreign players to be registered with British bands, that would be totally up to them. On the other hand, I don't think our national body (VLAMO) should have the right to forbid Belgian players to play for a foreign band.

People like Raf Van Looveren and Bert Van Thienen haven't broken any rules, so I don't think there is any problem. Like I said, I know several people who have played in both the Belgian and Dutch nationals (with only a week in between!) and I have absolutely no problem with that.

Some people are suggesting that there should be an international registry system. Personally i coan't see this happening, because of the big differences that there are currently between the different countries. Currently, Britain has the most strict registration system in the world. An international registry system would in any case be a compromise, and therefore less strict then the current British system...

And who would administer this "world registry"? There is no world brass band federation. The EBBA already have there hands full just to organize the EBBC, and still this wouldn't include the US, Australia and New Zealand.

[Darth_Tuba]

Paying retainers/salaries is a slightly different argument as , at least the retained players are registered with the one band and cannot play for a different band in a different area - unlike at present with the Euro contingent free to return to their "home" countries and turn out in their Nationals as if nothing had happened.


I don't think it is that different. Most people's arguements against foreign players are that not all bands can afford to do it, so it isn't fair. Most bands can't afford retainers either.

Conductors are free to do as many areas as they like. I'd argue that would have more of an effect than a 2nd cornet player from any country particularly. I'm really not that bothered. Whatever the rules are bands will always try and play the best band possible within the allowed rules. I really don't think changing them will make that much difference in the long term.

[andromeda]

Conductors are free to do as many areas as they like. I'd argue that would have more of an effect than a 2nd cornet player from any country particularly. I'm really not that bothered. .


...but they don't usually play 2nd cornet do they?
It's usually principal cornet or in your case solo trombone!
I bet you're not bovvered!

Sam

[backrowbloke]

I have no issue at all with bands incorporating 'foreign' players.
As I see it, the brass band movement, for many reasons, has a chronic shortage of players. If a band has to recruit from abroad & can afford to do so in pursuit of it's aims, then good for them. I would rather see that than a band fold.

We only have to look at 4BR to see how many bands were unable to get together the players for the area this year.

Also, what is the difference between a band registering a foreign player for a contest to one that either borrows a UK based player or sign a UK professional player for a single contest?

Most of the comments I've heard or read over the years seem to come down somewhat to envy - that a band can afford to recruit from abroad.

Recruiting players does not guarantee success. It was widely rumoured that at least one Midlands championship band recruited heavily to get a band together for the area, but they did not feature in the placings. Was that money well spent? In my eyes, yes, at least they competed.

If I was put in the position that I needed to get players for a job (note - contest or concert), could not find UK players willing (or of the standard required) and could afford the cost, then I would happily fly in people.

<sigh>Can't we focus on providing good quality concerts instead of bickering & moaning over contests?</sigh>

[TheMusicMan]

We only have to look at 4BR to see how many bands were unable to get together the players for the area this year.
Or look here on tMP a week prior to the so called 'news' appearing on 4BR... ;)

[JR]

I have no issue at all with bands incorporating 'foreign' players.
Also, what is the difference between a band registering a foreign player for a contest to one that either borrows a UK based player or sign a UK professional player for a single contest?

Most of the comments I've heard or read over the years seem to come down somewhat to envy - that a band can afford to recruit from abroad.


<sigh>Can't we focus on providing good quality concerts instead of bickering & moaning over contests?</sigh>

The difference concerns registration - I am against European players signing on the books of British bands and then playing in their own country's nationals. Bands over here cannot borrow players at the area - full stop.

Where might this end? - Entire Belgian trom and bass sections alighting at Stansted to compete at Stevenage? Eikanger, Manger and Stavanger applying to compete at Darlington? (...they could probably get there quicker than some ...and they'd raise standards and...oh god what have I said!!!)

If you want to focus on concerts see threads under "The Auditorium" or elsewhere!

JR