View Full Version : Yorkshire Regional Contest 2007
barrytone
17.02.2007, 12:49
Sorry if there's already a thread posted for this, can't find it on tmp. Can find one about the testpieces but not the bands taking part. Not sure when the prediction contest will be up and running, sure the mods will tell us soon. Yorkshire Area Contest is only two weeks away and just wondering if people who are competing have any thoughts they could share in the forum.
Will be interesting to hear opinions on anything from the venue to the bands involved. I've played at St. Georges for many years and have also competed and National Finals and think it's one of the finest halls I have every played in. It was designed specifically as a concert hall and in my opinion serves it's purpose perfectly.
Only criticism I have is the amount of stairs from the dressing rooms to the stage and then steps onto the stage. Is there a lift backstage that can be used for anyone who is unable to climb the stairs or failing the presence of a lift do the committee and stewards have contingency plans to accomodate less able bodied players? Something I've often thought about and it occurs to me now as I have a friend who plays who's in a wheelchair but doesn't compete in the Yorkshire area.
Anyone know?
You can find all the details of the bands taking part at this year's Yorkshire Championships at
www.regional-contest.org.uk/yorkshire/Entries.html (http://www.regional-contest.org.uk/yorkshire/Entries.html)
Regarding your question about access to the stage, the sectretaries of all of the competing bands have been sent instructions that include details about the special registration procedures for any players that are not able to use the stairs and the standard route through registration. There is also a steward designated to assisit any player that needs to use this registration method.
Unfortunately the deisgn of the the stage at St. Georges means that access to the stage always requires a short set of about 4 steps. Stewards are always on hand to help any player that needs assistance up these stairs and several players that are also wheelchair users have been able to compete in the past.
Stuart
Yorkshire Webmaster and Regional Committee
barrytone
17.02.2007, 23:38
Thanks Stuart, it's something I've often thought about. It's no criticism of the venue or the way the contest is organised, reassuring to know that the committee have measures in place to deal with any mobility issues. Had a look at the website and found loads of information about grading tables and competing bands, very comprehensive. Many thanks for your help and congratulations on such an informative and comprehensive website.
The beer is too expensive and I always get ID'd despite being 25! ;-) Looking forward to the contest , first section especially should sort the men from the boys!
Its a great contest in my opinion. Have always enjoyed playing there from the start of my playing career to the present day. Its not often that a band like ours can compete against the likes of the famous names of Dyke, Grimthorpe, YBS, Brighouse and co!!! Our debut in the Champ section last year was a fantastic experience and i am sure this year will be just as good. Bring it on:biggrin: Good luck to all involved on the day.
Without doubt the most intimidating contest atmosphere and most nerve wrecking stage to play on , especially if you wear the black gold and red uniform, didn't like playing there at all...the crowd praying for mistakes...very strange..
JohnnyEuph
20.02.2007, 16:39
Character building
bassmittens
20.02.2007, 17:29
I can't say i like the hall to play in. It is always such a lonely feeling sitting on that stage playing - when that stick goes down and you hit your first note it suddenly feels like you are playing on the stage by yourself, and the only sound you can hear is your own! It always passes in such a daze - i feel like i come off that stage having been unconcious and like the previous 10-15 mins have not really happened. Least i won't remember any of my mistakes:p
Anyway can't wait!!!
Good luck to all bands this year.
Character building
Never heard it called that before in all the years I have played there lmao ;)
Not long to go now! Cant believe there aren't any predictions up yet??!!!
kierendinno
21.02.2007, 13:19
I played there for the first time last year, having only ever played a regional at Burton-on-Trent town hall. Couldn't believe what a fantastic venue it is! Ok, it's like being marooned on a desert island when you're playing, but the atmosphere is fantastic. Last year was a bit of a daze- can't actually remember playing- I know I did (or at least I HOPE I did!), but it was so overwhelming, and also probably due to the fact we had to play Images...
Can't wait for the day- am excited about playing but I really can't wait for the top section. Again, only ever watched the whole top section at Burton- and it wasn't bad (they played Tristan Encounters that year)- but to hear the likes of Dyke, Grimey and YBS play Isiah 40, all under one roof... it promises to be fantastic!
Good luck John and Pete with Hatfield, and good luck to everybody playing!
And can we get some predictions going??
And can we get some predictions going??
The tMP Prediciton Contest will be operational shortly - we're just finalising the complete list of entries for all areas. Bear with us.
kierendinno
21.02.2007, 13:25
The tMP Prediciton Contest will be operational shortly - we're just finalising the complete list of entries for all areas. Bear with us.
Cheers dudes!
Thanks for that:biggrin: Goodluck to you and your band too!!!! We all are hoping to improve on last years result of 9th so fingers crossed.
Should be a good contest this year and a fantastic test piece to boot!!
barrytone
21.02.2007, 14:10
Forgot to say that in first section, I believe Holme Silver haven't entered and I have heard on the brass band grapevine that although Grange Moor have entered, they're not competing. If this is true, this reduces the first section to twelve bands and would be such a shame for two previously very successful bands.
tubafran
21.02.2007, 16:19
If you look at the 2007 Yorkshire grading table of the 5 bands promoted/relegated in to the section this year they are all on equal 3rd place with 2 bands above and 6 bands below. Similar situation in 2nd and 3rd sections with 3 & 2 above and 5 & 5 below respectively.
I know how the points work but can anyone explain why the promoted/relegated bands seem to land higher up the table than an "average" position might imply?
If there are only 12 competing in the 1st section this year then the average mark for promoted/relegated bands next year will be half a point less at 13.5 which will continue this effect.
Are there sections elsewhere in the country where the newly placed bands land lower than the middle table?
Marks are worked out on the average number of bands registered in that section so there are 14 bands registered in the 1st section which i think there have been 4 a few years, therefore the average ponts 4 this year is 7 not 13.5 and of course points are worked over a 3 year period so in 2008 a promoted band in the programme will have 2006: 7 pts 2007: 7 pts giving them 14pts total before they compete the position the band finishes is then added to the above to give final positions 4 prom./rel. etc etc not trying to complicate things in 2009 assuming the band are still in that section the points would be 2007: 7 pts average prom 2008: place they finished, this gives total pts b4 they compete in 2009
Forgot to say that in first section, I believe Holme Silver haven't entered and I have heard on the brass band grapevine that although Grange Moor have entered, they're not competing. If this is true, this reduces the first section to twelve bands and would be such a shame for two previously very successful bands.
no need 4 the grape vine if you look on the yorkshire regional web site you will find that the above is true holme silver did not enter and grange moor have withdrawn. Sorry if this sounds sarcastic!!
barrytone
21.02.2007, 22:21
It doesn't. Good to have official confirmation though. Twelve bands left then, good luck to all competing bands.
chiephonium
22.02.2007, 00:32
Never heard it called that before in all the years I have played there lmao ;)
- don't worry about my boss Shaun, i'm trying desperatley to keep him in check!
I can't wait to make my debut in the Yorkshire Championship Section - chomping at the bit you might say!
No doubt my adrenalin will be flowing when we get out there.... bluddy brilliant - love contests....
bonjour.
- don't worry about my boss Shaun, i'm trying desperatley to keep him in check!
I can't wait to make my debut in the Yorkshire Championship Section - chomping at the bit you might say!
No doubt my adrenalin will be flowing when we get out there.... bluddy brilliant - love contests....
bonjour.
No worries Andy lol, perhaps he might change his mind about 'character building' in years to come if he is ever playing there under the spotlight with one of the so called "big boys". :biggrin:
It still is for me the most frightening stage to play on!!!
Regards
tubafran
22.02.2007, 10:51
Marks are worked out on the average number of bands registered in that section so there are 14 bands registered in the 1st section which i think there have been 4 a few years, therefore the average ponts 4 this year is 7 not 13.5
Hi Rim, Thanks for that but I think I'd worked out how you get the points (13.5 would be the marks given to bands promoted/relegated into 1st section next year based on a two year result) - what I was trying to get at was why the "average" marks place the relegated/promoted bands so far up the table.
Surely one of our mathemagiciation can throw some light on to this?
Janet Watkins
22.02.2007, 12:44
Wasn't the question of points awarded discussed here (http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24657)?
There is also this link (http://www.regional-contest.org.uk/london/National%20Brass%20Band%20Championships%20Rules.pd f) which brings up the official rules and contains a table at the end showing average points awarded depending on the number of bands contesting.
baritune
23.02.2007, 18:46
Well i'd hardly say anyone would hear 'on the brass band grapevine' that Grange Moor aren't going to the areas, it's no secret and has been on the regionals website that we've withdrawn for a while now.
:(
Simply not enough players around and we are all gutted about not going...here's to next year!
Lawrencediana
23.02.2007, 18:49
Hi Rim, Thanks for that but I think I'd worked out how you get the points (13.5 would be the marks given to bands promoted/relegated into 1st section next year based on a two year result) - what I was trying to get at was why the "average" marks place the relegated/promoted bands so far up the table.
Surely one of our mathemagiciation can throw some light on to this?
I think its fairly simple all the top bands get promoted that leaves the middle bands higher up.
Without doubt the most intimidating contest atmosphere and most nerve wrecking stage to play on , especially if you wear the black gold and red uniform, didn't like playing there at all...the crowd praying for mistakes...very strange..
Ah presume your talking about the Yorkshire Imps there!!??
Belfast Barman
23.02.2007, 19:37
I am realllllllllyyyyy looking forward to getting back over there for the weekend.
For me, personally, I think the first section is going to be an absolute ripper, just like last year....
I can't wait to hear if Billy Rushworth wants the Co-op band to "f****ng rescue it" like he did at Butlins! - This is just hearsay, I weren't there, but I heard about it! (Billy, don't beat me with the big stick - I'll buy your (one) beer when I see you in the bar).
In all seriousness, it will be a cracker of a weekend, good luck to all the competing bands and commiserations to those who have had to withdraw because of the age-old problems of lack of players.
See you in the bar
Andy
Hi Rim, Thanks for that but I think I'd worked out how you get the points (13.5 would be the marks given to bands promoted/relegated into 1st section next year based on a two year result) - what I was trying to get at was why the "average" marks place the relegated/promoted bands so far up the table.
Surely one of our mathemagiciation can throw some light on to this?
I think there are at least 2 effects coming in to play to produce this situation. The first is that the absence of promotion from the championship section and relegation from the 4th section means that bands promoted into the championship section will tend to be slightly below the middle of the table and bands relegated into the 4th section will tend to be slightly above the middle of the table.
This would also explain seeing higher than centre of the table placings for bands who join sections 1-3 if, for example, 3 bands had been promoted and only 2 relegated the previous year.
This though did not happen in Yorkshire last year so why are promoted and relegated bands slightly above the centre of the tables for sections 1-3? I think this must arise from the 3 year averaging system. With 3 year averages at the end of the period there will be potentially a range of marks from, if the section had 12 bands, 3 to 36 points. The chances of a band getting one of the scores in the middle of the range is higher than at the end of the range ( only one way to score 3 points but 108 ways to score 19 points) You can show the chances of getting each score on a graph like this:
http://www.stuartlw.f2s.com/Distribution.jpg
I think that the effect that you point out (of the average number of points for relegated and promoted bands not placing them in the middle of the table) is because there are far less bands than there are possible total point values so the bands have to take places up somewhere on this distribution curve. My gut instinct, although a mathematician may disagree, is that there is no need for the placings of bands to be equal either side of the average and so you can get a situation where, after the promoted and relegated bands are removed, that bands awarded an average mark are above or below the centre of the table. I think this is also more likely to happen in smaller sections than in larger ones where things are smoothed out by the larger numbers.
If you look at the London and Southern Counties tables you will see that in one section the promoted and relegated bands are slightly below the centre of the table which should be equally likely to happen.
What I am unsure of is that if once you are in a situation where the promoted and relegated bands are above the centre, is if it is likely to stay like this for a few years or is it equally likely to bounce the other way again the following year. To answer this would need a serious mathematician and some simulation I think.
You are probably wishing you never posted this question now……
Does anyone agree with this analysis or is it fundamentally flawed?
Stuart
barrytone
23.02.2007, 21:49
Think first section will be a cracker even with the two bands who haven't been able to compete. Bands are always struggling for players but the first section seem to have found it particularly difficult this year for some reason. I am certainly enjoying rehearsing the piece and looking forward very much to the contest at St. Georges Hall. I will be a bit sad when it's all over, very much enjoyed preparing for this contest, got Spring Festival to look forward to though!
timbloke
23.02.2007, 23:26
To answer this would need a serious mathematician and some simulation I think.
BOC alert!
I'm not a serious mathmetician, but whilst a bit bored at work this afternoon I did carry out a bit of a simulation in Excel of a 14 section band over 6 years (took 30 mins or so).
I applied a random score to the 14 bands in the first year, and then had their score vary in the second and third year by a "consitency factor" which I could vary to see if there was any difference if bands were consitent or not. In the 4th, 5th and 6th years I applied relegation and promotion introducing 4 new bands each year. The new bands also had a promotion/relegation factor that allowed me to influence (but not control) how well the new bands would fare - i.e bands coming down a section would be more likely to do better.
I then ran it a few times (40 or 50) with the random numbers changing the results each time. However what I noticed was that the on average 6 bands were lower in the table than average, 4.5 bands were on average and 3.5 bands were higher up the table. Backing up Francis's observation.
I've left it on my computer at work but if I get a chance next week I may try to work out why, or see if I can extend the model either for more bands or more years.
If anyone who is a serious mathemetician would like to see my work, PM me on Monday.
One of the factors that doesn't seem to be mentioned so far is that in any arithmetical model, you have to start from a range of around 8 to 10 points - not 1. Those less than around 8 - 10 points have usually been promoted out of the way.
At the other end of the scale, depending on the size of the section and the previous results of two years ago, sections with about 11 bands seem to go up to about 15 points at the bottom, but sections with 14 bands sometimes only go up to 16 or 17 - only one or two more points at the bottom even though there are three bands more with two years points.
So really, the above models need running with an unput range of around 9 to 15 points for an eleven band section... etc.
Then, the average (Which we know is calculated using all the points - including the 1, 2, 3 etc not actually available!) is often only slightly higher (worse) than the top bands in the section -as is the case in all the Yorkshire sections where there is both promotion and relegation.
http://www.regional-contest.org.uk/yorkshire/grading.html
Sorry - more simply, in other words, is it that the maths ideas above in previous posts are trying to work out the averages using the "pre promotion/relegation" version of an area table - whereas the organisers apparently use the "post promotion/relegation" table from each January.. ?
I Think that may be the difference between the models and the actual tables? - When the points range before the organisers insert the average is way offset - ie they dont go from 1 - 30 they go from, say 10 -17...?
Belfast Barman
24.02.2007, 12:22
I thought this was a thread on the Yorkshire Area's, not a meeting between Einstein, Stephen Hawking and Isaac Newton!
Who really gives a rat's ass about the grading tables - I for one don't.
I assumed most people played in bands because they enjoyed the band, social aspect etc, not because they wanted to work out the merits of "if we come fourth, then we will be promoted in 8 years time, but if we win, we get relegated 22 years on the trot".......
Andy, tongue very firmly in cheek
Belfast Barman
24.02.2007, 12:23
I didn't mean the reply above, the thread had just gone on a strange mathematical-quantum physics thread.....
Andy, one week to go - mine's a dodgy Tetley's in a warm plastic glass
Who really gives a rat's ass about the grading tables
I do!
And if you had my job just now, you may too.
Dave Euph
24.02.2007, 12:47
Too be fair if you win your area you stand yourself in a good position to be promoted, and if you come last there's a fair chance you will be relegated. The points system in my experience only has a small bearing overall.
Surely the idea is to play as well as you can on the day and don't worry about the Maths, otherwise we're all going to look like serious BOCs! ;-)
Too be fair if you win your area you stand yourself in a good position to be promoted, and if you come last there's a fair chance you will be relegated. The points system in my experience only has a small bearing overall.
That's good common sense Dave - but it does depend on the different experiences we all may bring with us. I conducted Kippax from 92 - 97 and because we were not that successful, but were less erratic than the bands we played against - 6th, 5th and 2nd promoted us to the lion's den, squashed in a draw of super bands between YBS and Brighouse - With Grimey, Dyke and few others just after - all because bands like Hepworth, Lindley and half a dozen others (At the time) were getting all sorts of different points at the regional in section one - and if stuff like that is going to happen to bands that don't even win, you have to look at what's causing it - and that is the arithmetic of the system.
I'm locking this thread now so a fresh discussion can take place on the 'official 'WoE thread which contains all the entries etc.
http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26768
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