Eric Ball Enigma - Do we dishonour our hero ?

[iancwilx]

Eric Ball is widely considered as one of the greatest Brass Band composers of the middle years of the 20th Century, and the decision to feature his works at the 2003 National Finals, his Centenary year, is to be congratulated.
Does anyone consider that the choice of one of his "Arrangements" of a classical Orchestral piece for the Premiership Section of the National Finals to be a bold and obvious statement from those who run these events, that they do not consider that any of Eric Balls original compositions are a worthy test of the top section elite ?
By this one stroke, they would appear to have abused this tribute to one of the movements iconic figures, and showed their contempt for his ability to produce a testing composition for the Premier test.
Whoever had the casting vote on this choice, should carry the responsibility of reducing this comemoration of a great man to a "Lip Service" showpiece for the lower Sections.

[KennyC]

Well said Ian.

They should have used Festival Music. That would sort them out. Great audience piece too. High Peak's another one that is still, and always will be, hard enough.

I'm still going but not looking forward to it as much as I normally would. Hope I'm wrong.

Kenny

[Aidan]

They arn't even using his full arrangement either..
It's a cut-down version :(

[euphonium_john]

I think it's brilliant.

To have some 'real' mainstream music in a competition is absolutely fantastic.

Just remember what happened at the open. One fantastic musical work, arranged for brass band and it really sorted out the men from the boys - that's my opnion.

Whilst it's great to play specific brass band music - it could be argued it's more of a challenge to try an conquer some serious orchestral works that have been arranged for band. It gives a completely different approach and are subject to such a vast array of interpretation and styles that it puts far more musicality into a performance.

To be fair, most championship section players can master any notes (all fast and furious) put infront of them. But how many can approach a performance with music, emotion, pain, pleasure, ectasy, heastbreak etc.etc - a completely different kettle of fish.

It's to easy just to stick completely to 'brass band music' try other things and then a whole fantastic world of music is at your feet.

There's far more to music than brass band music.

[Aidan]

i vote sk8ter boi for next years masters

[iancwilx]

John - whereas I can agree to some extent with the challenge of "Conquering" "Serious" orchestral works, ( You don't consider our original music to be "Serious"?) my point is, that this years National Finals should have been dedicated to Eric Ball and his original music, not his arrangements, and to use an arrangement for the Premier test would appear to suggest that there was no original work of Eric Balls that would provide a suitable challenge technically and/or musically.
Surely you do not suggest that Eric Ball did not write some beautiful harmonious music that was both stimulating,challenging and emotionally fulfilling to both performer and listener ? (Music, emotion, pain, pleasure, ecstasy heartbreak- he had them all )
Why should we play music composed for and scored for Orchestra ?
I don't hear of any Orchestras attempting to "Conquer" "Serious" music composed and scored for Brass Band.
It could appear that we have taken this opportunity to honour a talented and revered Brass Band composer and used it to suggest that none of his original music would be suitable for the Championship Section Finals.
This is not a Tribute, it could be construed by some as a posthumous slap in the face for one of the movements truly great and personable giants.

[The Cornet King]

It could appear that we have taken this opportunity to honour a talented and revered Brass Band composer and used it to suggest that none of his original music would be suitable for the Championship Section Finals.
This is not a Tribute, it could be construed by some as a posthumous slap in the face for one of the movements truly great and personable giants.

Firstly i too believe that an original Eric Ball piece should have been used, and yes i agree that he is a true 'great' of the brass band world. However the choice of the Enigma Variations also shows off the fact that Eric Ball was such a masterful and genius arranger as well as composer. I'm sure not many people could have arranged a work of such magnitude as well as Mr Ball did.

However the fact that they have had to use only part of the Enigma Variations does rather detract from the celebration.
Certainly, Festival Music had to have been in with a chance of being chosen? :)

All said i dont believe that this discredits the name of one of our finest, who shall no doubt remain one of the finest, composers for many years to come. I'm sure all the bands in London tomorrow shall do justice to the magnificant arrangement he has made.

[Straightmute]

I think it's brilliant.

To have some 'real' mainstream music in a competition is absolutely fantastic.

But do we want both of our major contests this year to feature arrangements? What is the future for the brass band if we're going to dedicate our most prestigious 'shop window' occasions to playing 'bleeding chunk' transcriptions of orchestral works?


Just remember what happened at the open. One fantastic musical work, arranged for brass band and it really sorted out the men from the boys - that's my opnion.

At the Open I was bored by the time we reached band number 5. A fantastic musical work with all the orchestral colour removed.


Whilst it's great to play specific brass band music - it could be argued it's more of a challenge to try an conquer some serious orchestral works that have been arranged for band. It gives a completely different approach and are subject to such a vast array of interpretation and styles that it puts far more musicality into a performance.

To be fair, most championship section players can master any notes (all fast and furious) put infront of them. But how many can approach a performance with music, emotion, pain, pleasure, ectasy, heastbreak etc.etc - a completely different kettle of fish.

Can't you find these in band music? I can! I'm not against playing transcriptions - at contests or concerts - but I'm very concerned that there are so few new original works of real quality and that composers from outside our movement are no longer commissioned to write for band. Where are the test pieces from Mark-Anthony Turnage, Steve Martland, David Sawer, Thomas Ades, Simon Holt etc. etc. etc. ? My own preference for this year's finals would have been to commission a new piece in Eric Ball's memory - a special tribute on his 100th anniversary.

I love Enigma Variations but I think I'll get a better musical experience spending the weekend at home with Adrian Boult.

D

[euphonium_john]

I see where you're coming from.

Eric ball indeed write some wonderful music. Full of all the ingreadients to give a musical performances, I would agree that it's a a great tribute to use the variations.

However, one could argue that some (and only some) top level contest music is so devoid of 'music' that no good orchestra would choose to work on it and play it because these peices are just for contests and therefore would offer nothing musically to the players, conductor and the audience. It's just as important that the audience enjoys a musical performance as well as players. That's not to say that contest audiences enjoy hearing different bands chewing through 'un-musical' techinical collections of notes - but they don't get the same emotional pleasure that one would associate with good music. Although I have heard orchestral performances that are very technical, complicated and difficult to understand, I have never heard one that doesn't offer something musically, weather it was a pleasant experience - or not.

Then, that sparks a whole new debate - what's music and what isn't..................

Off we go then........

I want to encourage the brass band establishment to think beyond the brass band establishment - there's so much more out there!

[yorkyboy]

I want to encourage the brass band establishment to think beyond the brass band establishment - there's so much more out there!

There is a lot of music out there but i dont believe eric balls arrangment of enigma variations is the cream of it by a long way.

[euphonium_john]

Yes, you're absolutely right.

I mean there's far more other than just the brass band repertoire - having a go at the mainstream repertiore is both challenging and rewarding on all levels, you have to be able to do far more than just play the dots infront of you.

It's possible to train any reasonable player to play the notes - it's far more difficult to get a musical performance from some. Some players are musical, others - unfortunately - are not. You've ether got it - or you haven't.

[euphonium_john]

Put it this way, many orchestral brass players could easily sit in in most bands.

How many 'banders' could reverse rolls as easily. -

However, I do realise that a lot of orchestral brass players started in Brass Bands.

Makes you think though.........

[Dave Payn]

Put it this way, many orchestral brass players could easily sit in in most bands.

How many 'banders' could reverse rolls as easily. -

However, I do realise that a lot of orchestral brass players started in Brass Bands.

Makes you think though.........

Maurice Murphy, Willie Lang, Rod Franks (all members/ex members of arguably the world's leading orchestral brass section).

Others: Paul Archibald, Dudley Bright, Harry Mortimer (Royal Liverpool Phil if I remember correctly) Arthur Butterworth, Bill Relton, James Watson, Martin Winter. As you say, there are a lot!

Would 'purely' orchestral players sit so easily in brass bands? Technically, sure. Musically? Maybe, maybe not.

As for Enigma Variations, again, no objections to occasionally using classy orchestral transcriptions, but to my mind, having studied Enigma for my exams and having the heard the complete brass band arrangement as well, fantastic as it is, its selection for RAH in its 'cut' form seems to me to have b@stardized the piece and the memory of the arranger. Holst, for instance, was never happy about extracts of his Planets Suite played separately as concert items (from what I've read, anyway. However, I admit, I can't say that with total authority).

By selecting extracts of EV, I don't care how well linked the chosen movements are, the whole point and structure of the piece is destroyed for me. Festival Music would have provided a more than adequate test of both musicianship and technique.

[euphonium_john]

I think you're misunderstanding, a lot of your list started banding, then went to college to study orchestrally. So that would mean they were orchestral players, who did band work, which is what I was trying to say.


Interesting debate though..........

[Aidan]

i know exactley what dave is saying.
trumpet players do not fit in brass bands, even playing on cornets, unless they are able to change their playing style.
when I was at the rncm, they always filled up the backrow cornets with trumpet players, and without fail they always produced a din..! even some of the suposedly best trumpet players in the college simply wern't used to the brass band technicality and musicality required of the 2nd + 3rd cornets in championship test pieces.

[monkey]

So cutting to the chase then...who are the most limited "musically"? Cos it seems to me that it is Banding that would come out on top when it comes to entertainment and that Euphonium John has the wrong end of the stick - or whatever he holds!!!

PS
Would some of you guys get spell checkers or at least proof read your work - some of the spelling is quite distressing :oops: And is certainly detracting from the quality of the debate.

I am sure that none of you are as careless with your music

[Accidental]

Interesting debate guys, if slightly off topic. All I would add to it was look how Alliance Brass did yesterday with a band full of "orchestral" students. A fine band yes, but a brass band sound..... IMHO no.

Back on topic....... I heard that Eric Ball had always wanted EV to be used for the National Finals but that it was too difficult and/or too long. You could argue that to use it yesterday (rather than re-using one of his original compositions) was the most fitting tribute.

[Dave Payn]

Interesting debate guys, if slightly off topic. All I would add to it was look how Alliance Brass did yesterday with a band full of "orchestral" students. A fine band yes, but a brass band sound..... IMHO no.

Back on topic....... I heard that Eric Ball had always wanted EV to be used for the National Finals but that it was too difficult and/or too long. You could argue that to use it yesterday (rather than re-using one of his original compositions) was the most fitting tribute.

Which is why I suggested Redbridge might do well. They have a mixture of those more used to band styles and orchestral players who can make a good fist of mixing the two styles. (As I said in an earlier thread, some can, some can't). It didn't happen for Redbridge anyway. Don't know much about Alliance Brass in general.

As for EV, if Eric Ball wished it to be played at the National Finals in his lifetime but suggested it was too long and too hard, would it necessarily be a fitting tribute to have a 'cut' version of it as a test piece? I would have thought that a cut version would have been suggested to Eric Ball at the time. Maybe not. Anyone know?

[PeterBale]

As I understand it, Eric did suggest a cut version for contesting use, with less music than was actully played on Saturday. What I did feel was that, having dropped one of the variations printed in the score, the jump from Nimrod to E.D.U. was quite abrupt - rather like the Open it almost made it seem like two distinct pieces, and made it rather disjointed.

[roman]

I can see both sides of this arguement and as usual the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

I agree with euphonium John .. there is a great repertoire of orchestral music out there that we could play and make great music from. The discipline and control needed to play some of these pieces will test the best bands in the land ..... but

The best band performance of an orchestral piece will never sound the same as the original ... we simply cannot (no matter how gifted we are) produce the same tones and colours from our pieces of tin as the massed ranks of players stroking cat gut over little wooden boxes .... its always going to be our interpretation or aproximation of the performance that an Orchestra might produce. So we end up with what ? ... a poor copy ? .... a completely new interpretation ? ..... whatever it is its not the sound that the composer had in his head when scribbling down the piece.

How much better to play a piece of music written for a band - by a composer who is steeped in banding .... who knows the capabilities and sounds and subtle (non-existant to an orchestral composer) nuances and differences in tone and colour of the various instruments that we play. The sounds made by a good band are just as awesome as the output of a symphony orchestra ..... lets play music that makes the most of those sounds and celebrate the art form that we all love.

My vote, then, is for new music - written for the brass band. We should encourage composers to write for our movement ..... we have a unique sound that we should rejoice in - not apologise for. We must all be prepared to tackle something new and original and approach these works with an open mind (remember the outcry with 'Prague') .... I for one don't want to spend the rest of my time in banding rehashing orchestral music no matter how good it is ... I could have joined an orchestra if thats what I wanted.

Just my 2 pence worth .... donning my flame proof suit and sticking my head back below the parapet.

[iancwilx]

Roman - it might be only 2 pence worth to you, but it's worth a small fortune in common sense. IMHO every one of your observations is spot on and should be the basis of our understanding of our position in the musical world.

[euphonium_john]

Un-accustomed as I am to agreeing with people. I see where Roman's coming from.

All I want to do is to encourage music. Therefore we don't want to end up continually treading the same old boards. Try something different. Orchestral arrangements are challenging. We should try them. Specific brass band music is brilliant. We should try them. Old stuff, new stuff - if you look closely enough there's music to be found in all of it. -Even in what some may regard as technical tripe!

We need to look forward and try to discourage the sort of thinking that would give credence to those in other areas of music who regard banding as somewhat backward and un-musical.

We need to approach everything we do with a musical stance, and prove those who don't regard what we do as viable, completely wrong. If we are then able to be seen as more serious about music - and dare I say less competitive - who knows what the worlds finest brass bands (ie. those in the UK) could achieve. We could therefore get more recognition. I don't remember a band ever appearing in the Proms (although someone may prove me wrong) but wouldn't that be great? Surely, to be taken seriously, we need to open ourselves to new thinking. Move away from the 'we were robbed' 'keep it tight' 'make their ears bleed' mentality.

What do you think?

[euphonium_john]

P.S. I believe it was a musical performance that won yesterday.

How refreshing, I rest my case. Well done Fairey's.

[PeterBale]

I don't remember a band ever appearing in the Proms (although someone may prove me wrong) but wouldn't that be great? Surely, to be taken seriously, we need to open ourselves to new thinking.

Bands have appeared at the Proms on a couple of occasions, including one I attended featuring Dyke and Grimethorpe, where William Walton's "The First Shoot" was premiered. The National Youth Brass Band have also appeared, but I would agree that bands have not had anything like the exposure they should have had.

[roman]

I think that euphonium john is pushing at an open door here.

Yes .... lets try to make as much music as we can - I think that with original Band music we can do this without any of the baggage that comes with an orcestral transcription.

If you want to hear my views on a favourite hobby horse ......

I have always thought that the mind set that wants to produce a 'standard' performance of a test piece really misses the point.

Orchestral music buffs will rave about this interpretation of a piece or that delicate handling of a particular passage ..... and rejoice in the differences between each performance - each with its own merits but saying something different through the medium of the music.

Lets dare to make our music live - say something different with a piece every time you play it .... put something of your own passion and soul into your performance.

Eric Ball (to get back half way to the original topic) was a composer who had a very definite picture of the ideas he wanted to express with his music ... look at the score for any of his works - they are full of comments that try to explain the mood he is striving for in each section of the piece - to my mind a band cannot give a top class performance of the piece without the listener being able to feel the emotion the composer is trying to evoke - tempos and dynamics etc are only part of the mechanics that we should use to achieve that and shouldn't be the only basis that we are judged on at contests.

After all, if we were asked to choose which recording of a piece we wanted to include in our own record collection (or take to a desert island) we wouldn't sit and listen to the recordings with the aid of a metronome would we ?

[Dave Payn]

Dyke also appeared in an afternoon Prom in the mid 80s, playing Cloudcatcher Fells amongst others. I wrote to 4 bars rest a while ago. They left off the heading I wrote; 'Are brass bands too insular?'. It included suggestions as to how bands might be more accepted at festivals like the Proms.I reproduce my article here. As with any readers on 4br, all constructive comments welcome.

Are brass bands too insular?

A question I have pondered now for some time. In the not too distant future I hope to set up my own Internet based brass band publishing firm, largely aimed at ambitious lower section bands and school ensembles, but not ignoring the upper echelons of banding or indeed ensemble works in general.

I'm hoping that in the long run we'll be able to add new original brass band works to the catalogue. However, I shall kick off with some arrangements. I went through the possibilities of what we could arrange which hasn't been done before or which hasn't been touched upon a great deal and what would work for band and what wouldn't and I became increasingly frustrated.

Why? Not the ability (or lack of), of the arrangers I've earmarked for the project, I have every faith in them but what I perceive as the limiting nature of our brass band set up. Very few arrangers of published material have dared 'experiment' with the band size in a radical way. Sure, some arrangements are catered for those bands who may be short on numbers, and quite right too. But one of my chief interests in producing new arrangements is music from the renaissance and baroque era.

Too often in the past, the arrangements have, in my view, been amended to the suit the standard brass band size than considerations such as keeping the same key or close to it (i.e. for a lot of baroque music, that means say a 'bright sound' A work that was originally in D major, doesn't to my ears sound quite as 'bright' when transcribed into Bb or Ab major as has been done in the past). The works of Handel and Bach, I decided a while ago, don't always easily transcribe to brass band, but better on orchestral brass. Why so? Orchestral brass ensembles can vary in size and regularly do so and have a greater variety of instruments, particularly in the trumpet department.

Therefore, they can stay in the 'bright keys' originally intended for some of these works. OK, so 'authentic baroque pitch' is as near as dammit a semitone below modern pitch (with A=415 HZ as opposed to A=440 of nowadays). So for the D major baroque stuff, read D flat major (E flat major at B flat cornet pitch) Excellent, I was thinking, the brass bands would prefer the flatter key and still be able to keep the bright sound. Then came another obstacle. Lack of variety of tone and/or pitch. With one soprano cornet, most of the 'up-tempo' baroque stuff would be a smack in the face in that key unless you share it out with the solo cornets or rep who would be at the very top of their register most of the time and therefore struggling, by and large. Sure, another option is to share the melodic lines an octave down with say, horns and/or flugel but to my ears, it makes the music sound duller than it should, certainly for baroque.

The band I play with (Fulham) although 4th section, is blessed with a surfeit of cornets and trombones at present and has been for some time. I intend to embark upon an arrangement of Handel's Fireworks Music soon. A lot of high stuff from violins, oboes and trumpets in one of the original versions (the other original version is scored for large wind and brass only) so I intend to arrange it for 4 solo cornets, two sops, (possibly three, one using an E flat trumpet. Sacrilege I know, but there you go) rep, 2nds and 3rds, three flugels, (to give a tonal variety in the middle upper register, quasi oboes) and the rest as standard with the possible exception of adding an extra trombone and all at what would be 'authentic baroque pitch' as described earlier. Some will no doubt be thinking 'The guy's nuts' Perhaps I am... They might also be thinking, '4th section band finding three decent sop players? Uh-uh'.

I've played with a few bands where we've been lucky enough to have players available to come in, or players from within the band who can 'double up' on sop. In any case, the trouble is, (and I'm certainly not guaranteeing it would be a good arrangement anyway), if it does turn out OK, it's unlikely to sell if I were to publish it, because of the difference in instrumentation from the norm.

But hang on, I'm talking only about arrangements and of a specific period thus far. What about original music? Are there composers out there that would feel less inhibited in writing original brass band concert works if there was a shift towards varying the size of bands? I could make comparisons with brass ensembles, but then I would, possibly quite rightly, be told that it's a difficult comparison when one is openly called an 'ensemble' which implies a potential 'downsizing' when required as opposed to 'bands' which by the nature of its name, implies a larger body of players. OK, so I'll make a comparison with orchestras. Quite often, at orchestral concerts, you'll see a change in size in the same concert, depending on the forces the piece/s was/were written for. A Mozart or Haydn symphony in the first half followed by say, Prokofieff's Scythian Suite or Respighi's Pines of Rome as part of the second half would require a radical change in numbers (not the best analogy but it'll do for now).

Obviously, I would doubt that this approach would work for contests. I'm thinking along more concert based lines. I also said at the beginning (without necessarily trying to plug anything as the business hasn't got started yet!) that I would be aiming for 'ambitious' lower section bands. Nevertheless (though I'm not asking for business advice here) am I fighting tradition too much here? I know and understand there are some bands who can barely scrape a set of instruments together, let alone expand. There are also some bands where players have access to or own several instruments of a similar family (i.e. trumpet and cornet in varying pitches, flugelhorn).

But overall, my question to other readers on this site is this? Would the brass band movement, or more to the point its concert repertoire, be improved and enhanced by occasionally expanding or even decreasing in size and playing pieces accordingly? I dare say ideas like this have been tried long before I suggested it here but would our top bands, say, have a greater chance of being invited to play at something like the Proms (i.e in the RAH, not in Hyde Park!) if composers and arrangers wrote and arranged for different sized bands. Or to put it in a nutshell, could brass bands ever effectively become known as 'brass orchestras'?

I only cite my potential arrangements/publishing business as examples of what I'm trying to convey here, but your views on this subject (positive, negative and downright slagging off) will be most welcome.

Regards

[Hornblower RN]

[quote="Accidental"]Interesting debate guys, if slightly off topic. All I would add to it was look how Alliance Brass did yesterday with a band full of "orchestral" students. A fine band yes, but a brass band sound..... IMHO no.

A fine band? No way!!..they played exactly as they looked on stage...absolutely ragged!! Their dress was disgusting to say the least and didn't portray an image of how a brass band should even start to look on stage. Scruffy shirts or even T shirts....the third cornet player even had a large hole in the tail of his shirt. IMHO they should never have been allowed to go on stage to perform!!