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jenzi
11.08.2006, 23:01
So David Beckham's finally been dropped! I think he's great, but McClaren has made the right decision. Beckham has been brilliant (sometimes) for England, but has not made much of an impact recently. He's past it.

I think the only mistake McClaren has made is keeping Crouch in the squad. I'm glad he's called Ashton up, he deserves a chance. Hopefully he'll keep Crouch out of the squad!

McClaren is the right man for the job, he has the passion and appears to have a plan! What does everyone else think?

Kiz7
11.08.2006, 23:55
So David Beckham's finally been dropped! I think he's great, but McClaren has made the right decision. Beckham has been brilliant (sometimes) for England, but has not made much of an impact recently. He's past it.

I think the only mistake McClaren has made is keeping Crouch in the squad. I'm glad he's called Ashton up, he deserves a chance. Hopefully he'll keep Crouch out of the squad!

McClaren is the right man for the job, he has the passion and appears to have a plan! What does everyone else think?


i missed the squad announcement and the papers/news today as my dog (don't laugh!) was sic and had to have an operation. Can anyone tell me the full squad so I can ponder an informed(?) reply

cheers

drummerboy
12.08.2006, 00:06
http://www.thefa.com/England/SeniorTeam/Players/

Charmed
12.08.2006, 10:11
England WITHOUT David Beckham!!!! :eek:

NOoooooooooooooooo!

Girls lets boycott :biggrin: .

What fun are we going to have now????? Who are we going to watch running around the pitch all sweaty?????

Seriously ;) , I cannot believe that David Beckham has been dropped. With the RIGHT manager he is a fantastic player to watch. He's everywhere. Can't see England being the same without him, and I do mean they won't be as exciting, in my 'girly' opinion of course. :wink:

gawber
12.08.2006, 11:46
I feel that David Beckham still has a lot to give to the England team. I think McClaren has made a mistake in dropping him.

markyboy
12.08.2006, 12:28
Beckham did have a very poor World Cup (and he knew it).
McLaren has left the door open for him to return though if he's playing well enough.

Andy Moore
12.08.2006, 13:04
He's not got enough at the moment. He's either past it or just unfit ... he can't keep up.
Great free-kick taker though.

ian perks
12.08.2006, 14:34
I think the only mistake McClaren has made is keeping Crouch in the squad. I'm glad he's called Ashton up, he deserves a chance. Hopefully he'll keep Crouch out of the squad
No he as done the right thing keeping Peter Crouch in the squad as he is a LIVERPOOL PLAYER:clap:

jenzi
12.08.2006, 15:36
No he as done the right thing keeping Peter Crouch in the squad as he is a LIVERPOOL PLAYER:clap:

Yeah and that's the only reason he gets into the squad, cos he plays for Liverpool

WoodenFlugel
12.08.2006, 23:29
No he as done the right thing keeping Peter Crouch in the squad as he is a LIVERPOOL PLAYER:clap:

Two words to say to that: Emile Heskey :rolleyes:

dyl
12.08.2006, 23:42
Two words to say to that: Emile Heskey :rolleyes:
Errrm, he plays for Wigan mate! ;)

WoodenFlugel
13.08.2006, 00:01
I know, but he was playing for Liverpool when he was a regular part of the England set-up, which was my point. Overated and unstable in the penalty box (to say the least) maybe there are more than a few comparisons with a certain lanky striker currently wearing an England shirt. ;)

Andy Moore
13.08.2006, 21:31
No he as done the right thing keeping Peter Crouch in the squad as he is a LIVERPOOL PLAYER:clap:
That's irrelevant.

I prefer Crouch to Heskey, but Crouch is not the man to partner Rooney ... ever. It just won't work. Rooney and Owen with Crouch on the bench isn't an awful option but to be honest I'd rather see Bent / Defoe playing.

markyboy
13.08.2006, 21:52
I wonder if Michael Owen will ever make it back into the England squad?

The poor guy is likely to be out for a year with his injury, and others may have established themselves as first choice strikers by then.

Having said that I wish him all the best, he doesn't deserve some of the bad luck he has had.

IYOUNG
15.08.2006, 13:55
Well the big revolution has started a real new look to the team.............


Robinson

Neville
Ferdinand
Terry
Cole

Gerrard
Lampard
Hargreaves
Downing

Defoe
Crouch

Just 8 the same then...........................yawn

Cornishwomble
15.08.2006, 15:00
Well the big revolution has started a real new look to the team.............


Robinson

Neville
Ferdinand
Terry
Cole

Gerrard
Lampard
Hargreaves
Downing

Defoe
Crouch

Just 8 the same then...........................yawn

What did you want then? A completely different teram without the likes of Terry, Gerrard and Lampard?
I think it's a good side and a more balanced midfield without Beckham in there, just think if it wasn't for injuries then Rooney and Joe Cole would be in the side.

More of the same, yawn??

IYOUNG
15.08.2006, 15:07
What did you want then? A completely different teram without the likes of Terry, Gerrard and Lampard?
I think it's a good side and a more balanced midfield without Beckham in there, just think if it wasn't for injuries then Rooney and Joe Cole would be in the side.

More of the same, yawn??

The point being that this was supposed to be a new start a new era, simply moving Gerrard to the right and keeping faith with everyone else doesn't smack of that to me.

Appreciate Ashton probably would have started but is now injured.

The midfeild of England lacked and still does one BIG thing and that is pace and ability to beat people get to the dead ball line and put in quality crosses back across the penalty area.
You won't get that with this team i'm afraid where is Lennon / SWP?

I am afraid it will be more of the same.....and where has that got us

Cornishwomble
15.08.2006, 15:15
Sorry don't agree, with that, a new era doesn't mean dropping a whole team. Aaron Lennon and SWP are in the squad and will play a bigger part in years to come.

The England team isn't like France in that it's full of 30+ year olds coming to the end of their careers. We have a team full of "potentially" world class players who have under-performed due to bad leadership and tactics from Eriksson.

If Gerrard doesn't produce on the right hand side, Lennon and SWP are now in the squad and can step in. There are new faces in the squad (4 potential new caps) and hopefully with Venables onboard the team should do great things.

Dropping Terry, Ferdinand, Gary Neville, Lampard, Gerrard and Ashley Cole would be suicidal and we defiantely wouldn't get anywhere

IYOUNG
15.08.2006, 15:34
Sorry don't agree, with that, a new era doesn't mean dropping a whole team. Aaron Lennon and SWP are in the squad and will play a bigger part in years to come.

The England team isn't like France in that it's full of 30+ year olds coming to the end of their careers. We have a team full of "potentially" world class players who have under-performed due to bad leadership and tactics from Eriksson.

If Gerrard doesn't produce on the right hand side, Lennon and SWP are now in the squad and can step in. There are new faces in the squad (4 potential new caps) and hopefully with Venables onboard the team should do great things.

Dropping Terry, Ferdinand, Gary Neville, Lampard, Gerrard and Ashley Cole would be suicidal and we defiantely wouldn't get anywhere

Here we are again after another failed tournament where we had ''potentially world class players'' when will folk realise no we don't have many potential world class players!!!
Thats why we fail!

Darth_Tuba
15.08.2006, 15:44
Here we are again after another failed tournament where we had ''potentially world class players'' when will folk realise no we don't have many potential world class players!!!
Thats why we fail!

In which case, changing the team would do what?

IYOUNG
15.08.2006, 15:55
In which case, changing the team would do what?

Unearth the possiblity of players who may develop into world class by 2008, I understand that the response will be well lets see if this lot can manage it with a new man at the helm but players win you matches not managers.

Just think he has missed a trick here to get everyone on baoard by some bolder selections.

Some pace would be a start

Cornishwomble
15.08.2006, 16:08
OK so name the starting 11 that will replace the team AND will get us to the 2008 Euro finals, I'm dying to see who's better at the moment.

Remember the qualifiers start next month so we need a team that will get us qualified.

IYOUNG
15.08.2006, 16:21
OK so name the starting 11 that will replace the team AND will get us to the 2008 Euro finals, I'm dying to see who's better at the moment.

Remember the qualifiers start next month so we need a team that will get us qualified.

isn't that Mclarens Job? I could put 11 names down and then opinions would follow and that won't get us anywhere

If you don't move things forward with fresh faces then nothing changes, why are we so hung up about that in this country? the Aussies don't care they chuck them in early and let them develop.

I wonder how Aaron Lennon feels after seeing Beckham dropped and the not getting the chance because Mclaren won't leave out Gerrard or Lampard.

yorkie19
15.08.2006, 16:29
Big Mac was right to drop Beckham. Golden Balls hasn't played well for a while and if dropping him will spur him on to play well and reclaim a spot in the England squad, where's the problem. Equally, if Beckham doesn't improve, we've not lost anything, have we.

Gerrard is a class act at free-kicks so I don't think we need worry from dead ball situations.

As for the rest of the squad, I'm glad to see that Walcott has been returned to the kindergarten. I feel for Dean Ashton, especially as it's a broken ankle he's got. I think it's a bit harsh to say that Crouch should be dropped. Maybe he isn't going to get picked if Owen and Rooney are fit, especially if Defoe and Ashton are the 3rd and 4th choices (and Smith 5th?) but he does deserve a chance after leading the line at the World Cup (when service to the forwards wasn't even good).

Personally, I would have handed Lennon the right-sided role but overall, I think it's a more balanced squad than anything Sven picked for a while.


It's amused me no end to see calls for more players to be dropped. We don't have that many outstanding players as it is.

I would have started with

Kirkland

Brown
Carragher
Terry
Bridge

Lennon
Hargreaves
Gerrard
Richardson

Defoe
Bent

against Greece, with Foster, Dawson, Cashley, Lampard, Downing and Crouch all coming on for the second half.

IYOUNG
15.08.2006, 16:34
It's amused me no end to see calls for more players to be dropped. We don't have that many outstanding players as it is.



and therefore get them in early and develop for the future same players = same failures

Cornishwomble
15.08.2006, 16:49
isn't that Mclarens Job? I could put 11 names down and then opinions would follow and that won't get us anywhere
Of course it is, but it also helps if you back up an argument with evidence and at the moment you haven't put forward a reasonable alternative to the team, in fact you seem to be making controversial statements for the sake of it. Seems a bit of a cop out if you ask me

I'd have thought dropping David Beckham and saying he didn't feature in his plans was a big bold move and definately marked a new era. Similarly dropping Walcott to the U21's showed that he wasn't Sven Mark 2 and had his own ideas.

I agree that Sven's problem was not dropping players and maybe on merit Lampard is lucky to be in the side, however if things aren't going right there are players like Lennon and SWP to bring on. Once Rooney is back in the fold and Owen is fit then Rooney, Owen, Defoe, Crouch and maybe Ashton could be promising.

Maclaren has dropped Sol Campbell and has added new faces to the defence and likewise David James seems to be out of the picture.

What he cannot do is drop the whole side and bring in a whole new team 1 month before the Euro qualifiers starts. If he did that and we had a shaky start then people would be straight on here saying that he should go and that he's mad not to have players of the quality of Terry and Gerrard in the team.

Still, nice to see the England manager bashing has started before his team has even kicked a ball!

IYOUNG
15.08.2006, 17:02
Of course it is, but it also helps if you back up an argument with evidence and at the moment you haven't put forward a reasonable alternative to the team, in fact you seem to be making controversial statements for the sake of it. Seems a bit of a cop out if you ask me

I'd have thought dropping David Beckham and saying he didn't feature in his plans was a big bold move and definately marked a new era. Similarly dropping Walcott to the U21's showed that he wasn't Sven Mark 2 and had his own ideas.

I agree that Sven's problem was not dropping players and maybe on merit Lampard is lucky to be in the side, however if things aren't going right there are players like Lennon and SWP to bring on. Once Rooney is back in the fold and Owen is fit then Rooney, Owen, Defoe, Crouch and maybe Ashton could be promising.

Maclaren has dropped Sol Campbell and has added new faces to the defence and likewise David James seems to be out of the picture.

What he cannot do is drop the whole side and bring in a whole new team 1 month before the Euro qualifiers starts. If he did that and we had a shaky start then people would be straight on here saying that he should go and that he's mad not to have players of the quality of Terry and Gerrard in the team.

Still, nice to see the England manager bashing has started before his team has even kicked a ball!

How is staing an opinion that we don't seem to be able to move on from the familiar faces who have failed deliberately contraversial? Different to your view I agree but deliberate?.....whats that supposed to mean?

My case is backed up by the clear lack of pace in the midfeild and the obvious exclusion of Lennon in preference to Gerrard.

persins
15.08.2006, 17:13
With this match, McLaren is going to be slated for whatever he does. Keeping the same team means inheriting the same criticism that Eriksson got. Changing too much means he runs the risk of destabilising the whole team and being called too reactive too quickly.
I think that he's got the balance about right. He's made a few high profile decisions but kept faith with some of the more consistant performers.
We cannot really judge too much from this friendly against Greece but with Venables in the background, I bet that the atmosphere and drive returns to the team. He is recognised as one of the best motivators in the world and is no fool tactically either which already paves the way to move on from Eriksson's style.

I say, give it a chance and lets see what happens.

Cornishwomble
15.08.2006, 17:13
Well the big revolution has started a real new look to the team.............


Robinson

Neville
Ferdinand
Terry
Cole

Gerrard
Lampard
Hargreaves
Downing

Defoe
Crouch

Just 8 the same then...........................yawn
From your original post you were basically saying the whole team needed to change.
Putting Lennon in for Gerrard would hardly make it that much different!

I actually agree with you in that I think Lennon should be on the right but I can see the reasoning behind putting Gerrard there and as I've said before if Gerrard isn't producing the goods, Lennon is sat ready to come on.

You said earlier that we play the same old players and they let us down and that players win games not managers, well as you're a Gunner can I remind you that when Wenger took over at Arsenal he didn't sell the whole squad and buy a new team. He brought in a couple of players in his first season and got the players there already playing well enough to win the league at the 1st attempt. Players who had been playing below par, like Adams, Merson and Parlour were different players under him.

Now I'm not daft enough to say Mclaren is a Wenger but it proves that you don't need to come in with a mass cull. A couple of changes here and there can also do it. Having Venables as an assisstant will also change the mindset of the players and I think we will see a difference.

I concede your right about Lennon which is why I asked who the other 10 would be, because I can't see many others (apart from Rooney, Owen and Joe Cole) who would better who we already have in that team

IYOUNG
15.08.2006, 17:58
The hub of the team (the 8 if you like) remain the same and di nothing at this world cup ....lets be honest England were absolute pants wern't they.

The defending we wcan probably get away with but certainly Robinson shouldn't be an automatic choice I suspect Carson and Kirkland will given time be a better bet, but with no games who knows,

Its the midfeild and forward line that concerns me, no pace at all ask any defender what worries them most they will say pace!

Long hopeful balls from the centre of the park to Croch any international defender of standing will deal with whcih is why when it comes to the big quarter finals England fail. McClaren had the chance to put some young players in with pace like Lennon, SWP even Walcott and yet decides to keep faith with familiar names. You mention Owen, Cole etc and exactly where have they got us?

Time to move on including me from this debate.

yorkie19
16.08.2006, 09:16
and therefore get them in early and develop for the future same players = same failures

Not necessarily. Same manager = same failures (irrespective of team). Look at Souness, or O'Leary for proof of that. Equally, look at the results that Glenn Roeder achieved with the same squad that Souness had. Does same players = same failures?

Big Mac has to blood some new players over the next 18 months and also needs to phase out the older players. James and Campbell have already gone (hopefully for good) as has Beckham (ditto). How much longer will Gary Neville be the first choice right back? However a mass cull of existing internationals is not going to work when you consider that there are not ready made replacements. When the Australians have successfully replaced established internationals en masse, there are outstanding players to call up in that position. I don't think you can say that about England right now.

Cantonian
16.08.2006, 10:51
One of the reasons that England did not perform at the World cup was that undoubtedly class players such as Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney and Joe Cole did not seem to be comfortable in being given set positions a nd roles which were alien to their club play. There were no outstanding teams this year but outstanding teams of the past have allowed their best players to play albeit within a system rather than creating a system and telling players wher to play.

I think the best thing the McLaren has done is to appoint Terry Venables with his football intelligence and esperience. I suspect that Gerrard won't be playing a full game on the right of midfield but will have licence to play as he does at Liverpool. Ditto Lampard. Owen Hrgreaves will be the 'filler in' allowing these two in particular to play.

With European Championship qualifiers imminent McLaren could not afford to make wholesale changes. I think that there will be incremental changes whereby Personnel will change and the players will know what their role is within the squad and team.

One point I disagree with Steve McLaren is his choice of Captain. I don't think that a permanent captain should be announced. Pick the best team and then the captain from within that. My reasoning is that if Jonathan Woodgate gets (and stays) fit, I believe he is a better international central defender than John Terry. Beckham played even when his form did not merit a place as he was captain.

Closer to home, John Toshack has surprised me as he seems to be building a decent squad of younger players with Wales. He has sussed individuals strengths and weaknesses and is not asking any more of his players than they are capable of. Hope for the next few years!

Anno Draconis
16.08.2006, 22:12
Having watched Peter Crouch score 2 goals, I think a few people need to sit down to a plate of humble pie. He might not be easy on the eye, but by god he knows where the goal is. That's 6 goals in 8 starts I think?

I enjoyed tonight's match and was pleasantly surprised. My own personal portion of humble pie is warming in the oven as I've been ripping into Mclaren since he was appointed, I didn't think he was the right choice at all (I wanted Guus Hiddink!). However, for me the jury will be out until England play genuinely talented opposition; Greece didn't turn up in the first half and by the time they started trying to play it was far to late. Andorra won't be the stiffest test either.

Pythagoras
17.08.2006, 09:27
Not necessarily. Same manager = same failures (irrespective of team). Look at Souness, or O'Leary for proof of that. Equally, look at the results that Glenn Roeder achieved with the same squad that Souness had. Does same players = same failures?

Big Mac has to blood some new players over the next 18 months and also needs to phase out the older players. James and Campbell have already gone (hopefully for good) as has Beckham (ditto). How much longer will Gary Neville be the first choice right back? However a mass cull of existing internationals is not going to work when you consider that there are not ready made replacements. When the Australians have successfully replaced established internationals en masse, there are outstanding players to call up in that position. I don't think you can say that about England right now.

Can't remember Neville ever letting England down really. Still a better bet than the likes of Luke Young, and though Carragher is a good defender, he wasn't as effective going forwards as Neville in the games he played in the world cup.

yorkie19
17.08.2006, 10:13
Can't remember Neville ever letting England down really. Still a better bet than the likes of Luke Young, and though Carragher is a good defender, he wasn't as effective going forwards as Neville in the games he played in the world cup.

Yes, and he's done a great job for United in the last twelve years. However, Nev is 32 in Feb next year and it's a fairly safe bet that Euro 2008 will be his last international competition. He's the oldest outfield player in the squad and I'm not convinced there is a ready made replacement out there, although Phil Bardsley (who's on loan at Rangers this seaon) is generally regarded as Nev's heir apparent. He's 10 years younger and a great prospect.