View Full Version : Regional Prize Money
tubaturk
16.03.2006, 10:29
Just looking back at the results archive on 4BR and came across this interesting finding.
Welsh Regional Contest 1982
1st Prize 4th Section - £200
Welsh Regional Contest 2005
1st Prize Championship Section - £200
Now based on the Retail Sales Index, retail prices have increased 3-fold between 1982 and 2005 years, meaning that the first prize should by rights be £600. Even if we allow for the fact that 4 sections went to 5 in 1992 and we redistribute the money accordingly, we still should be looking at a first prize of £480. However, as far as I know, there are no plans to increase the top prize money for the 24th year running!
Also, and this is slightly more controversial, why is the prize money spread equally between all 5 sections? Shouldn't the top section winners get more than the 4th section winners, as is the case in the National Finals, most other major contests and most other walks of life!
Shouldn't the top section winners get more than the 4th section winners
Why?
johnmartin
16.03.2006, 10:41
Why bother with prize money at all, especially since the demise of the Besson sponsorship. Surely winning your regional title and qualifying for the National finals is reason enough to enter the contest. In any case the cost of a bus will in most cases outstrip the prize money so we're not exactly in it for the cash are we. I would rather see whatever money there is ploughed back into the contest e.g. better facilities.
tubaturk
16.03.2006, 10:45
Why?
would you find it odd if Carlisle won more for winning Division 2 of the Championship than Chelsea won for the Premiership.
In any case the cost of a bus will in most cases outstrip the prize money
Not to mention a long 5 hour journey on said bus, added to a hefty hotel bill for overnight accomodation. Every single year.
James Yelland
16.03.2006, 10:50
Now based on the Retail Sales Index, retail prices have increased 3-fold between 1982 and 2005 years, meaning that the first prize should by rights be £600.
The figures really need to be put into proper perspective by comparing the difference in the competition entry fee over the same period.
tubaturk
16.03.2006, 10:50
That's a different issue and one I am sympathetic with by the way....anyway Beaumaris have the same issue so it's not a section specific thing.
would you find it odd if Carlisle won more for winning Division 2 of the Championship than Chelsea won for the Premiership.
Totally different though isn't it? Chelsea get more, because they get more press and a lot more TV coverage and revenue (is that true for Championship Section bands at the areas?). The Premiership has a hefty sponsorship deal which far outweighs that for the Championship. The only parallell I can see is the costs involved in getting a team like Chelsea together ........... but that's a completely different argument isn't it?
So how do you propose to increase the prize money for the 'top section' then? Reduce the amount available for lower section winners? Sponsorship?
Why does it have to be about money anyway? It's obvious that it's not the be all and end all for most bands, otherwsie so many wouldn't put up with the huge costs involved year on year to be able to compete at the contest.
It's the Regional contest - and it's about being in with a chance of being able to represent your area at the National Finals.
That's a different issue and one I am sympathetic with by the way....anyway Beaumaris have the same issue so it's not a section specific thing.
Hence prize money should be equal for all sections! :biggrin:
tubaturk
16.03.2006, 10:57
The figures really need to be put into proper perspective by comparing the difference in the competition entry fee over the same period.
absolutely...don't have the available information on what the fees were compared to what they were 25 years ago but I'm fairly sure that they haven't been frozen the same way as the prizemoney. Yes, the cost of admin will have risen in the mean time but couldn't bands pay higher entry fees then, or are brass bands proportionately less well off now than 25 years ago.
The entry fees could also be section-specific.
JayneSop
16.03.2006, 10:58
would you find it odd if Carlisle won more for winning Division 2 of the Championship than Chelsea won for the Premiership.
Gar!!!!
I can see your busy in work again!!!!
I rekon there must a 'John' on the prize fund committee!!!! (im only kidding bach, please don't bite too much!!)
I agree with a previous comment that prize money is irrelevant in contests. Every band will lose out financially coming to this contest. Thats not the reason we go to contests is it? Its because we like to push ourselves musically and technically, play new and original music, perform to a mostly appriciative audience and then drink lots of red wine after!!! Ok for some of us its just the red wine bit!!!!!
Ok see you later
Jayne
tubaturk
16.03.2006, 11:08
Totally different though isn't it? Chelsea get more, because they get more press and a lot more TV coverage and revenue (is that true for Championship Section bands at the areas?). The Premiership has a hefty sponsorship deal which far outweighs that for the Championship. The only parallell I can see is the costs involved in getting a team like Chelsea together ........... but that's a completely different argument isn't it?
So how do you propose to increase the prize money for the 'top section' then? Reduce the amount available for lower section winners? Sponsorship?
Why does it have to be about money anyway? It's obvious that it's not the be all and end all for most bands, otherwsie so many wouldn't put up with the huge costs involved year on year to be able to compete at the contest.
It's the Regional contest - and it's about being in with a chance of being able to represent your area at the National Finals.
OK, we'll agree to disagree regarding greater rewards for the higher section bands.
Yes, of course the money is insignificant compared to the enjoyment, achievement, etc. especially when a qualifying spot is up for grabs, but I can imagine that back in 1982, £200 was a rather more significant bit of money which would have easily covered the bus for most bands.
The question is, why have things got to a state where the prize money is now irrelevant? Lets either have tidy prize money or, as another contributer suggests, scrap it altogether.
The question is, why have things got to a state where the prize money is now irrelevant?
Has prize money ever been relevant as far as the regional contests are concerned? I'm not convinced it has been.
scrap it altogether.
So - which do you want? Higher prize money for top section or no prize money whatsoever? :confused:
tubaturk
16.03.2006, 11:18
Gar!!!!
I can see your busy in work again!!!!
I rekon there must a 'John' on the prize fund committee!!!! (im only kidding bach, please don't bite too much!!)
I agree with a previous comment that prize money is irrelevant in contests. Every band will lose out financially coming to this contest. Thats not the reason we go to contests is it? Its because we like to push ourselves musically and technically, play new and original music, perform to a mostly appriciative audience and then drink lots of red wine after!!! Ok for some of us its just the red wine bit!!!!!
Ok see you later
Jayne
I know, I know - if we come 2nd or 3rd on Sunday I can promise you that the thought of winning £100 or £75 or whatever it is, will not enter my head.
The main crux of the thread was to highlight the fact that regional prize money hasn't changed in 25 years (i.e. before most of our band were born!).
tubaturk
16.03.2006, 12:26
Has prize money ever been relevant as far as the regional contests are concerned? I'm not convinced it has been.
So - which do you want? Higher prize money for top section or no prize money whatsoever? :confused:
My point is that contest prize money has been allowed (over a number of years) to get to a point where it is, by now, accepted as irrelevant - to the players it has probably always been irrelevent, but to a band treasurer back in 1982, I would say that £200 was probably quite a decent sum and might've even contributed a wee bit to the London trip, even after paying out for the bus to Swansea. I can say this cos the Gogs were in the North West area back then ;)
The thing is that what we have now is no more than token prize money, so either we find more money through sponsors (easier said than done), ask bands to contribute a bit more to make it a worthwhile prize fund, or just ditch the whole prize money thing, accepting that the honour is greater than the financial gain and donate any extra revenue to the NYBBW (or some other brass band development cause).
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of prize money, it is amusing (and slightly embarrassing) that this year's Champion Band of Wales will receive the same cash prize as Usk Town did for winning Section 4 back in 1982. (No offence to Usk obviously!)
I can quite honestly say, that in all the years I have been contesting, prize money at the area has never been an issue personally (or for any of the bands I have played with).
As I see it, the only thing that matters is getting through to the nationals. That is worth more than any prize money.
Yes, it's nice to get a few quid as well, but see it as a helping hand with finals expenses.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate as much as the next person the financial issues involved in keeping a bands head above water. But come on, if you see the area as just another way of generating income then maybe you should take a close look at why you are involved in banding.
tubaturk
16.03.2006, 13:39
I can quite honestly say, that in all the years I have been contesting, prize money at the area has never been an issue personally (or for any of the bands I have played with).
As I see it, the only thing that matters is getting through to the nationals. That is worth more than any prize money.
Yes, it's nice to get a few quid as well, but see it as a helping hand with finals expenses.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate as much as the next person the financial issues involved in keeping a bands head above water. But come on, if you see the area as just another way of generating income then maybe you should take a close look at why you are involved in banding.
If you read what I said carefully, you'll see that I don't disagree with you - in fact, the only thing on my mind at this moment is trying to win a place at the finals. As I said, I just find the historical comparison in prize money rather amusing (and slightly embarrassing to be honest) - you regularly hear the ironic ooohs and aaahhhs come results time as the announcer reads "3rd place, with a cheque for £75...". The brass band movement has come a long way in recent years but these prizes just serve to add a bit of unnecessary naffness to the occasion, which is a shame given the event's prestige.
So, to reiterate a previous point, if we don't want to stump up the cash for better prize funds, lets just ditch the prize money altogether.
So, to reiterate a previous point, if we don't want to stump up the cash for better prize funds, lets just ditch the prize money altogether.
Sounds a fair point to me, the majority of bands in the UK will have spent far more than the first prize in preparing for the contest in the first place. The financial reward comes afterwards by being able to promote your band as prizewinners to organisations wanting your band, and thus raising revenue that way instead.
ian perks
16.03.2006, 17:09
Hence prize money should be equal for all sections! :biggrin:
Very true on this Dyl:
In have to say as well that if a band as to higher a coach should you get in the prizes i doubt if it covers the cost of the coach you have to pay for.
The prize money is not that really important just the aim to qualifi as got to be the only thing at steak:clap:
tubaloopy
16.03.2006, 17:34
Can anyone out there answer these questions for me?
1. How much does it cost a band to enter the area?(Entry fee)
2. How much does it cost people to go and listen to the area?(Admission)
Thanks
PeterBale
16.03.2006, 17:57
As far as I remember from last year, admission for spectators was £7 at Stevenage.
Anno Draconis
16.03.2006, 18:58
1. How much does it cost a band to enter the area?(Entry fee)
In 2004 I think it was £30 to enter the NW area
2. How much does it cost people to go and listen to the area?(Admission)
Last year it was £10 I think at the Winter Gardens, but that got you into all 5 sections on the same day.
Not to mention a long 5 hour journey on said bus, added to a hefty hotel bill for overnight accomodation. Every single year.
Ehh, we have do that for every one of the 5 or 6 contests we compete in each year!! If we had qualified for Harrogate this year, it would be 3 nights and a 20 hr round trip bus journey on top of the usual yearly amount!!! (theres even talk on going to Pontins this year!)
We're 4 hrs to Glasgow before we can even start on a motorway to head south!
Its pretty frightning what our travel costs are every year and no, we're no sponsered! The prize money at contests wouldnt get even close to covering it, and thats if we started winning them.....! :rolleyes:
Pure musical enjoyment and alcohol, isnt that why we do it...?! ;)
ekimmort
16.03.2006, 23:31
[quote=tubaloopy]Can anyone out there answer these questions for me?
1. How much does it cost a band to enter the area?(Entry fee)
Entry Fee for all Sections at North of England Regional Contest. £65 to include 30 Performer's Passes. These details are from Regional Entry Form 2006
Money should be scrapped from the Regionals prizes in my opinion. The expense of getting to a contest easily outstrips the prize money available. The only way to make it worthwhile financially would be to get a major sponsor involved.
Pontins have, of course, been doing this for years. And the advent of the Butlins competitions shows that prize money can be made available. Unfortunately, the only people paying for this money is us. I regularly stop at Pontins and stayed at Butlins a couple of years ago. If everyone in our short row of chalets spent as much as me, the Prize money was soon made up.
Are we prepared to pay more to enter the competition? I suspect not.
Relating to the top section question raised earlier.........
Is a top section band prepared to pay more to enter? I suspect not as well.
But taking the Pontins and Butlins example, and a quick whinge about our Midlands Regional venues, if a suitable venue is selected where the venue can make additional money out of indirect spend (ie. a bar), wouldn't that release more slice of the pie for prizes. Get the Landlord of the pub at the back of Burton Town Hall to sponsor the event. Bet he wishes it was the Area every weekend!
Can anyone out there answer these questions for me?
1. How much does it cost a band to enter the area?(Entry fee)
2. How much does it cost people to go and listen to the area?(Admission)
Thanks
Yorks Area £65 and £5 a ticket
jimbo1309
17.03.2006, 20:55
Why bother with prize money at all, especially since the demise of the Besson sponsorship. Surely winning your regional title and qualifying for the National finals is reason enough to enter the contest. In any case the cost of a bus will in most cases outstrip the prize money so we're not exactly in it for the cash are we. I would rather see whatever money there is ploughed back into the contest e.g. better facilities.
I totally agree that prize money should be ploughed back in to the contest organising. It would be much better spent on decent facilities. We at the midlands regionals get a cold wet car park and a burger van!!!
I agree with a previous comment that prize money is irrelevant in contests. Every band will lose out financially coming to this contest. Thats not the reason we go to contests is it? Its because we like to push ourselves musically and technically, play new and original music, perform to a mostly appriciative audience and then drink lots of red wine after!!! Ok for some of us its just the red wine bit!!!!!
Jayne
Apart from the area, I disagree that the prize money is irrelevent in contests. If you're a band strapped for cash, I don't think you would not consider the expense of a contest compared to the possible winnings and what your chances were. Of course I'm sure most bands would like to compete just for the experience, however, for some, that is just not possible.
sparkling_quavers
18.03.2006, 20:32
I agree that prize money in other contest is important, but I wouldn't be bothered if there was no prize money at the area. It would be better spent put back into the facilities or paying for 2 adjudicators (for example).
Roger Thorne
19.03.2006, 06:56
The total amount of prize money on offer per section: £375
The total amount of prize money per contest: (5x375) = £1,875
The total amount of area contests: (8x1875) = £15,000
Here's a suggestion, why not use the £15,000 to commission 5 new test pieces each year?
There's a wealth of untapped material and talent lurking behind the scenes in the brass band music publishing business which I'm convinced, in the long run, will be more beneficial to our beloved movement.
;)
The Cornet King
19.03.2006, 11:27
Prize money at the areas is irrelevant. The prize money we won this year only covered our rehearsal room for the morning.
Its not about the money its about prestige; getting to the national Finals, trying to get promotion and just trying to fulfil the full potential of the band. The prize money is so poor, most bands probably wouldnt go if all they wanted was money.
I reckon because its the areas most bands (i would hope all bands) would still go if no money was on offer.
I agree! Scrap all prize money, and use it to make sure every region has a minimum of two adjudicators in the box!
HUDDSBASSBONE
24.03.2006, 13:11
I agree! Scrap all prize money, and use it to make sure every region has a minimum of two adjudicators in the box!
Still won't stop any dubious results from adjudicators (there have been quite a few, both this year and in previous years...), or complaints from various bandsmen/women about the result/adjusdicators attitudes/remarks/facilities, etc. Personally, I think they should use it in certain sections to pay for more than one hall to be used for the competition. I know that everyone, including the lower section banders want to see the top section, but is it really fair to have them waiting until 10pm ish to perform and hear the results, especially when theres a long drive back at the end of it.
I also wonder why they can't have the top section on the Saturday for once - would be nice to have Sunday as a day of rest instead of having to get up at 6am on the Monday morning for work....
Anyway, theres my two-penneth.
I'm aiming to get up to double figures on the number of posts before the end of today!
Charmian.
I was having a read of my program between bands and pointed out to Ginge that he didn't stand to win much in the way of cash. That's not because it had any bearing on anything, but because I happened to read it, and being a poor student, anything with a pound sign in front of it stands out...
He replied, 'That's because its the Areas. We're here to qualify, not for the money,' or something similar. Think that says it all, really.
But in response to the original point, and not the subsequent discussion on the merits of the prizes, I agree that it's an interesting point that the prize money hasn't increased with inflation, and such like. In the grand scheme of things though, with the general consensus being that it doesn't matter, it remains simply as an interesting observation.
David Francis
25.03.2006, 20:09
I do not understand this passion for two adjudicators in the same box. If they do not agree the stronger personality will win out or a poor compromise is reached. It would make much more sense to use two adjudicators to divide the field,e.g. 26 bands in 4th section with two adjudicators in the box. Ludicrous! 13 in each group with one adjudicator would make much more sense.
On the subject of prize money, it would be interesting to see how much money is taken at each area contest and the finals and what proportion of the overall profit prize money actually is.
Dai. Francis
ian perks
25.03.2006, 20:18
I am just glad to see 2 adjudicators at long last been used at the midlands area for all the sections.
I have numbers of letters to band press about it and at long last it happended this year but its down to us lot to make sure we get two all th etime now and also lets see a change from closed to open adjudication as well:clap:
ekimmort
29.03.2006, 23:16
I have numbers of letters to band press about it and at long last it happended this year but its down to us lot to make sure we get two all th etime now and also lets see a change from closed to open adjudication as well:clap:
Why do you think open adjudication should be introduced for the regionals?
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