Comments from the Owner.... [Archive]

TheMusicMan

21.02.2006, 13:01

It would seem that although this is never my desire, tMP is often dragged through the mud and criticised harshly, as well as sometimes becoming intricately involved in the sad world of banding and bandroom politics. Me... well, I am just the owner of tMP that's all... I do not pretend to be a banding guru, a performing superstar, nor have I desires to become a budding journalist; but given my position here I do occasionally have to think about what I post, and am obliged to wear the 'part of the banding media' hat that has been bestowed on me for coming up with tMP in the first place. Sometimes, I therefore have to make comments about what I see and hear going on around me in the banding world. That's my punishment I guess... not a bad one though eh!

I never like to see negative comments written about tMP, after all, who likes to see false accusations and the like being made and published about their baby? When I do though, I feel somewhat compelled to respond to these inaccuracies with comments of my own. This is one such instance, so here goes...

I had cause to seek legal advice from my lawyer recently after being informed of an ugly situation between a band in North Wales and one of their members. The member, actually… a long standing member, player, Deputy Conductor and Treasurer of the band, had rather surprisingly been sacked from the band in what transpires are somewhat bizarre circumstances. Where this involves tMP, is that the reasons cited in the sacking letter received by the person were that he had apparently made offensive, inappropriate and inflammatory posts on the brass discussion forum - themouthpiece.com.

Hmmm... that's news to this tMP owner!!

The band, through their MD, wrote a letter to the Welsh language magazine, “Golwg” which was published a few weeks ago. I invite you to have a read of what was so disgracefully allowed to be published;

"4. The member in question was expelled from the band not because of any political matters, but for a series of unpleasant/upsetting, defamatory insinuations against the band, along with regular 'conductor bashing' on the brass band website, theMouthpiece.com, over a period of a few months. The unexpected appearance of his confidential letter to the Nat Watch website merely confirmed his hostile attitude."

Now, I have no interest in what has happened between these two parties, and only hope they are able to settle their differences amicably, but to see these comments actually being published enraged me. We all know here that I do my utmost to ensure there are never any such posts on tMP. If these posts are made, then you all know that they are removed immediately by one of the team. It was two aspects that incensed me;

(1) The Band and their MD simply have it wrong. No such posts were made and the tMP team have never had cause to remove any of that persons posts.
(2) Golwg should show more respect to their media colleagues, and should have carried out at least some research before they allowed that letter to be published.

Golwg offered me no courtesy of informing me that this letter was going to be published, and allowed these incorrect comments to be printed. Makes them look rather silly to me eh!

Anyone viewing tMP can clearly see that serious errors have been made by the Band and their MD, but nonetheless I shall leave it to you all to make your own minds up as to if you think tMP does allow these type of comments on our site, and hence why the Band should make such false accusations.

Unfortunately though for the individual concerned, this episode continues. The story seems to have broadened in appeal, and yesterday he found himself being interviewed by Gwilym Owen of BBC Radio Cymru, which was broadcast during his lunchtime show. Showing nothing but true journalistic professionalism, the BBC did actually offer me the courtesy not offered by Golwg, and I was contacted by Gwilym Owen last week. I confirmed that this individual never made any such posts on tMP, no complaints have ever been made about him. I added that I felt the Band, their MD, and the Welsh News magazine Golwg were out of order making those comments about my site, and were also totally wrong in this aspect of their accusations against the individual. Gwylim did mention during the interview that he had spoken to me, and that I had indeed confirmed these accusations were untrue and no posts of such a nature were ever made.

I do not wish to become involved in bandroom politics, but in this instance I wish all success to the individual as it seems he has been penalised unfairly and did not ever act in the manner accused. I wish him the best success.

Keep an eye on this owners comment thread as I shall keep you posted on any further action tMP intends to take.

Finally, I found myself amused yesterday after being informed about an apparent humorous article, penned by none other than tMP member Dr. Murray Aitken (shhh... he likes to hide behind his mask of BobSherunkle when posting on tMP) that appeared in last months edition of BBW magazine. Dr. Aitken has, it would seem, a rather strange sense of humour. He seems to think it is funny to imply that poor results and performance by bands in the Upper Twaddle Clog Makers Contest are taken far too seriously, that discussion about mouthpieces is not fascinating, and quite amazingly feels that tMP is run by a collection of Nazis and Sunday School teachers.

How silly... humorous…? maybe, sarcastic…? certainly! but then again, these Nazi’s and Sunday School teachers know why such an article appeared. How many of you tMP'ers have behaved in a manner to have been banned from tMP...? personally, I didn't expect anything less from our resident Dr. and see at least that yesterday, at 15:44, BobSherunkle is still happy and willing to fraternise with said Nazis and Sunday School teachers...!

The joys of running a brass discussion forum eh! I love it. Thanks for reading...

1alexm

21.02.2006, 13:26

It's sad to see those people complaining about tmp, i just carn't understand how they could find something negative to say about tmp.
I'm not a nazi, or a sunday school teacher.
Don't let them get you down John, tmp is ace.

Thirteen Ball

21.02.2006, 13:59

Well if that doesn't take the biscuit.

TMp has always been a free forum for reasoned debate, where bandspeople can air their (often conflicting) views and debate the issues that re important to them. That's the main reason I became a member in the first place! I've had some rare old arguments and debates whilst posting here, but have always received reasoned and well thought-out counter arguments. That's what debate is about, and yourself and the other mods do a great job of preventing anything descending into a slagging match, as well as allowing open debate between people who otherwise might never have met.

Keep up the good work. People always mock what they're jealous of.

yorkie19

21.02.2006, 14:08

Dr. Aitken...quite amazingly feels that tMP is run by a collection of Nazis..

If you want to talk about offensive, I find this very offensive. There is nothing, and I repeat, nothing funny about the Nazis, and any reference is entirely out of place.

Rapier

21.02.2006, 14:19

Well, if it was MY site, the good Doctor would more banned than a banned thing. If he doesn't like how a FREE site is run, he should not abuse the privilege!!

DaveR

21.02.2006, 14:42

If you want to talk about offensive, I find this very offensive. There is nothing, and I repeat, nothing funny about the Nazis, and any reference is entirely out of place.

I don't think theMusicMan said this was funny :confused:

TheMusicMan

21.02.2006, 15:03

If you want to talk about offensive, I find this very offensive. There is nothing, and I repeat, nothing funny about the Nazis, and any reference is entirely out of place.Yorkie19

Just to let you know I agree with you that the comments made are offensive, and that I do not find this funny at all. I am referring to an article posted in the December/January issue of Brass Band World, by Dr. Murray Aitken. In it he proudly posts his inane drivel, which BBW portrays as a humorous column, in the hilarious attempt in thinking he has the wit and intelligence to pass himself off as a form of humourist.

Ego's eh! ;)

Valvecap

21.02.2006, 15:45

Dont let em get to you John... Mouthpiece has shown fantastic insight - bringing the movement together, entertaining, informing and allowing its members to post their own opinions on a variety of topics both banding and none banding related. The Mods and yourself work hard to ensure a 'netsafe' environment for us all to participate in (or just watch from the shadows) as we see fit. Any reference to either you, the Mods, or Me (and I am sure 99.99999999% of the rest of tMP members) being or being associated with Nazist beliefs in any way is offensive and bang out of place. - Wonder if that would get said to your face... Doubt it.

Jealousy is a dangerous and sad thing really isnt it - has anyone actually come up with an argument based on FACTS and actual happenings as to why Mouthpiece has done anything but good for the movement?

Mouthpieces??? Er.... Pretty important part of banding I think - not personally involved in the discussion, but I think the number of people who were is testement for the demand for such a discussion....

Keep developing tMP - Ive been with it since the earliest darkest days - the record number of folk online at one time used to be 11!!!!! - The demand is testement to the sites success.

drummergurl

21.02.2006, 16:12

i think you are very hard done to at times john. some people will find any excuse to do something, and unfortuneately its always the good people that get blamed. i think you do a fantastic job, and what you have created with tmp is nothing short of stunning. most people on tmp are genuinely nice people. anyone who isnt registered and hasnt been on tmp wont know this. so, i just thought i would say thank you john for creating tmp. you and your team of mods do a stunning job to keep it all fair, and stop any cat fights happening on the boards and at the same time keeping the freedom of speech and opinions, as everyone is entitled to an opinion.

some people may be of the opinion that tmp isnt a good place, but i think the majority of people think tmp is a great place, with excellent resources, and is excellently run. its a shame that some people seem to become jealous of what's here.

i personally have found tmp to be a fantastic place, with lots of great people. i have made many friends, found a new band, and become part of a fantastic community, with geniune caring nice people. i dont think i would be wrong in thinking that i am not the only one who has experienced this too.

so.. john thank you! :D

matti_raz

21.02.2006, 16:26

tMP is only as good as the people at it's core so I guess...... It's bloomin' brill!!!!!;)

Sorry to hear all that John..... It's amazing how something so "minor and trivial":confused: as tMP can really show the "big guys" like bbw how hypocritical they are at times, or at least some of their writers anyway!!!:rolleyes:

Keep goin John and all the Mods for that matter of fact, and to echo every registered user of tMP Thank You very much, you've brought the "scene" into the 21st century!!:clap:

hellraiser

21.02.2006, 17:25

The member, actually… a long standing member, player, Deputy Conductor and Treasurer of the band, had rather surprisingly been sacked from the band in what transpires are somewhat bizarre circumstances.

For more information about this story see http://ypwyllgor.blogspot.com

Let me make the comment that if every band committee took the attitude that the band committee in question did, then bandspeople would not be able to discuss their interest & passion on the web- that would be a very sad situation. That would mean no tMP and without tMP the banding movement would lose out. I applaud John for running this site in a responsible manner and for his strong stance on this matter.

Thirteen Ball

21.02.2006, 18:15

super_sop

21.02.2006, 18:26

Having followed the link in hellraiser's post, it all seems like a very sad situation, and one that should have been dealt with in-house as fast and as fairly as possible. There seems no need to drag TMp into it at all.

I'll refrain from further comment on the disagreement per se, as I'm not fully abreast of all the facts so to do so would be unfair. But TMp has had no part in this and deserves an apology for even being mentioned in the same breath.

Hear Hear Andi, i totaly agree, it seems that our (John's) site has been dragged into this with out any need at all.

Im sure that John and all of the mods have and will always have our full support. they sure as hell ahve mine!

keep up the good work guys.

Craigy

The Cornet King

21.02.2006, 19:05

The magazine 'Golwg' ought to employ respectable journalists rather than ones that simply publish whatever they can get their hands on without, like John said, performing the necessary research beforehand.

Is it any wonder there are so many rumours and gossip flying around when articles like that appear.

Its always going to be the case with a site like this that people may be taken out of context with certain posts, but if this confrontation and what has been written is totally untrue (and i take John's word that it is untrue) then to drag the sites name into it is an appalling bit of journalism.

Frankly 'Golwg' out to allow 'TheMouthpiece.com' a right to respond to the article because if they think tMP is partly to blame then they should be allowed to air their side of the story.

I hope it doesnt do too much to harm the reputation of tMP or John himself.

Good luck with it John, hope nothing further comes about from this. Personally i'd write to the editor and ask him exactly who wrote the article and how they came about with the conclusion that they finally set in writing for everyone to view.

madsaz

22.02.2006, 04:02

utterly surreal.

For those that think this place is boring - no one makes you come on the site. Quite a lot of the stuff on here has no relevance to me - but some does. Do I moan that some of it is not interesting to me? No I do not.

Unfortuantely Brass Banding is a fairly daft and bitchy place at times. I can't believe a magazine was daft enough to publish any daft allegations and certainly you are owed an apology. I think this place is pretty tightly moderated and the users seem more than happy to comply with the code of conduct.

Mister 4x4

22.02.2006, 04:30

As a fairly new member, I have to throw my support behind the others in echoing their comments that tMP is a stand-up site that has been drug through the mud for no good reason. As a member, I'm offended by another fellow member's insulting comparison to being a Sunday School Teacher... oh, and the other thing too. ;)

But seriously, and not trying to take anything away from the topic at hand, isn't it interesting how the media seems to have the trust of their audience, until they get something wrong that hits close to home?

PeterBale

22.02.2006, 05:15

Just to clarify regarding the BBW reference, the passage relating to " . . . Sunday School teacher types" and " . . . bore a certain similarity to Nazis " (sic) both referrred to the writer's perception of the Moderators, and the way the forum is monitored, and not the members of the forum.

Charmed

22.02.2006, 06:42

It is always sad when something like this happens. However, just to echo other sentiments, tmp is a great forum. I am not surprised at this event though. When something new starts and grows at the rate that tmp has grown 'others' are bound to become jealous, wary, and very threatened. I've heard comments about this site from those who do not use it, but I just laugh at them. Tmp is informative, funny, friendly (even through some emotive debates!)it also has brought together a lot of 'like minded' people who would normally never have met, and never have exchanged interesting views on banding and life in general.

To John and all the team - Keep up the GREAT work. :clap:

vonny

22.02.2006, 08:30

John

I have just read your post, interesting I thought.
I cannot understand why any individual would resort to portraying tmp in such a way... especially when they have been involved for a while. When situations such as this arise it puts emmense pressure on the owner and the rest of the team, and all the positive aspects about tmp are turned to negativy overnight.
Since I joined tmp just over a year ago I have found it to be a wonderful site, I have seen it as a community where people can get together and share thoughts and thier feelings, not only with regards to brass banding but also everyday situations. I have to say I have found tmp to be an inspiration as there is always someone available to assist or support...

I know what I have written won't change the situation but maybe it will give you the incentive to continue with what you have established - a wonderful community 'TMP'

Yvonne x

Andy Cooper

22.02.2006, 08:57

Ive been inolved in many societies / groups etc over time and its an unfortunate and sad fact that within virtually every one of them, some one has hi-jacked the society/ group for their own "political" ends. Ive long since accepted this as a fact, unpalatable as it may be. Whatever the rights and wrongs in the individual case, (and I will refrain from being Welsh-ist at this point lol) why drag an innocent party (tMP) through the mud.

tMPis an asset to the banding world and should be treated with the respect due, I know as yu say John its upsetting when someone critices your baby unjustly, but look at the comments you have had in reply to your original posting, i think that says it all.

At the risk of getting moderated here I quote a good mate of mine's favourite line when in similar situations " **** em, **** em all". dont let em grind you down mate.

yorkie19

22.02.2006, 09:27

Yorkie19

Just to let you know I agree with you that the comments made are offensive, and that I do not find this funny at all. I am referring to an article posted in the December/January issue of Brass Band World, by Dr. Murray Aitken. In it he proudly posts his inane drivel, which BBW portrays as a humorous column, in the hilarious attempt in thinking he has the wit and intelligence to pass himself off as a form of humourist.

Ego's eh! ;)

I agree. If Dr Aitken would care to discuss the Holocaust and the Third Reich in depth, I'll be more than happy to oblige, albeit with a slightly personal bias. I'm disappointed that BBW would print it in the first place, but I suppose I should have come to expect it from a magazine which is so fundamentally behind the times given that both tMP and 4BR can deliver banding news as it happens rather than 4-6 weeks after the event.

Straightmute

22.02.2006, 09:52

How silly... humorous…? maybe, sarcastic…? certainly! but then again, these Nazi’s and Sunday School teachers know why such an article appeared. How many of you tMP'ers have behaved in a manner to have been banned from tMP...? personally, I didn't expect anything less from our resident Dr. and see at least that yesterday, at 15:44, BobSherunkle is still happy and willing to fraternise with said Nazis and Sunday School teachers...!

Presumably that's why doctors have to swear a hypocritic oath. Boom boom.

(Sorry, I heard that BBW were looking for a new humourist).

D

Bob Sherunkle

22.02.2006, 10:48

Blimey!

Firstly can I make it absolutely clear that I am not the Dr Murray Aitken of BBW fame.

If I were then I would certainly be consulting my Brief (of Sue, Grabbit and Run, Bethnal Green Office) as to whether being "outed" on a discussion forum such as this constituted a breach of confidentiality by the site owner.

I am a retired bandsman (most of my most productive years were spent on the tambourine) who now makes a modest living on the East End pub circuit with my exotic dance act involving a Pearly King costume and a Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

I was once before mistaken for a doctor by a deaf woman many years ago whilst working in the Docks. This resulted in an unexpected breast examination and a nasty infection.

If I were to venture a medical opinion here it would be that the owner of this site is finding it rather too stressful and has become somewhat paranoid at what is, after all free publicity. Then again, what do I know?

BTW. I did read the column in BBW and laughed till the buttons began to fly from my stage costume. I missed the bit about finding Nazis funny tho'. Perhaps you are thinking of Mel Brooks?

Glad to have cleared that up.

Bob

PS I will be in the Kebab and Calculator Public House in Stepney on Thursday night as support act to a one-armed trombonist.

2nd man down

22.02.2006, 11:35

Why openly criticise a free website there for the use of those who wish to use it?

It's quite simple, if you don't like it, stay away from it. If you feel threatened by it, look the other way. It's a simple brass chat forum for crying out loud and does no harm to anyone. If you're so insecure or foolish that you feel the need to attack it to bouy yourself up then you desperately need something else in your life.

tMP provides everything a family friendly Brass Band Chat forum should provide, and more.
If you want to discuss music or instrumentation with other perhaps more knowledgable people - it's there.
Indeed, if you want to discuss anything brass band related with like minded or perhaps more knowledgable people - it's there.
If you want to discuss contests - it's there.
It you want to recruit players (permenantly or as a guest dep) - it's there.
If you even just want to pass your time discussing or participating in totally non brass banding related subjects and topics - it too is there (completely ignorable if that kind of thing doesn't ring your bell).
If you want smutty, lewd, insulting or libellous conversation then find some other place to do it because tMP is excellently monitored to ensure that this kind of rubbish is filtered out.

And it's all totally free, purely by voluntary participation and forced upon no-one.
tMP has undoubtedly forged relationships and friendships between players and bands that would otherwise not have happened, and has brought a sizeable chunk of the brass banding community much closer together. This can only be good for the movement as a whole.
Ignore and rise above the half-wits who criticise your website John, you provide a fantastic service for those of us who appreciate and use it, and long may that continue.

andywooler

22.02.2006, 11:44

whether being "outed" on a discussion forum such as this constituted a breach of confidentiality by the site owner.

Actually, you were outed back in 2004 by someone not connected with the ownership or management of this site.

We had a clown like this back in the early days of Nigel's mailing list - went under the name of "the brass band police" - could this be the same person maybe?

rutty

22.02.2006, 11:47

Why openly criticise a free website there for the use of those who wish to use it?

Because people are free to have an opinion?

I know it's disappointing to be criticised in the press, but these are only two incidents whereas this site is supported positively by hundreds of active users every day. You can't be liked by everyone - tMP is what it is and many, many people, including myself, love coming here to read about Brass Band-related discussion and general chat among fellow banders.

Dr Aitken may not have expressed an opinion to the liking of many people here, but he's free to do that if he wants. I don't agree with him and I'm sure that most people here don't either.

Let's focus on the positives. I'm quite happy with the level of moderation here and long may it continue. :)

mikelyons

22.02.2006, 12:07

I don't know why it is, but I get particularly annoyed by injustice.

After reading this thread I am positively fuming with anger.

Although my experience of such fora as tMP is limited (how many hours are there in a day?:rolleyes: ) I wonder that anyone who has ever been on here can feel that it isn't operated in a fair, reasonable and wholly professional manner.

And before anyone starts a rumour that I'm a goody two shoes, I'm sure the mods will bear witness that I have had my wrists slapped a time or two for typing from the lip!:eek:

I think the vast majority of tMPers realise how much they have benefitted from this free forum and will treat such accusations with a pinch of salt. We've already (allegedly) uncovered one case of mistaken identity, maybe there's now another going on.

My word, John, is that you ignore this idiocy, having written to the rag (and the band) concerned and warned them that any more uncorroborated, false statements will result in legal action and then carry on serving the people who are really grateful for what you are providing, which is the best BB forum on the web. (IMHO :rolleyes: :clap: :clap: )

Rapier

22.02.2006, 13:35

Because people are free to have an opinion?

Dr Aitken may not have expressed an opinion to the liking of many people here, but he's free to do that if he wants.
. :)

Although that is true of the 'real' world, it is not true of privately owned web sites. I am a Supermoderator on another (non band) forum and there are frequent moans about peoples 'Rights' and 'Free Speech' etc by a small minority. But they fail to realise that they actually have no 'rights' whatsoever!! Only permission to use the site, at the Owners discretion and that can be removed anytime the Owner feels like it. So if Dr Aitken is a member here, he has to agree to play by the rules (and those rules can be anything the owner desires*)

*On that topic, John, are you sure it's in the rules that I can only visit here, while wearing the pink bunny suit? I can't find it written anywhere! It's not too bad this time of the year, but most unpleasant in the summer. ;)

rutty

22.02.2006, 15:01

Because people are free to have an opinion?

Dr Aitken may not have expressed an opinion to the liking of many people here, but he's free to do that if he wants.
Although that is true of the 'real' world, it is not true of privately owned web sites. I am a Supermoderator on another (non band) forum and there are frequent moans about peoples 'Rights' and 'Free Speech' etc by a small minority. But they fail to realise that they actually have no 'rights' whatsoever!! Only permission to use the site, at the Owners discretion and that can be removed anytime the Owner feels like it. So if Dr Aitken is a member here, he has to agree to play by the rules (and those rules can be anything the owner desires*)

His comments were not made on tMP and so can't be governed by the rules of this site, though I agree with what you are saying. I'm also a moderator on another site and more than familiar with people's lack of rights to post on fora such as this.

I don't think John should be too worried about one person's opinion even if he has managed to get it printed in a magazine. It's not nice to be openly criticised in any capacity but then you can't please everyone all of the time. The moderators here do a brilliant job of keeping order and long may that continue.

Those that don't like it can go read the BBW I suppose.

WhatSharp?

22.02.2006, 15:38

I would take it to heart too much John, there is a great deal of support for this site and its done more to bring the banding community together than any number of "hack rags" who seem to do very little for the movement outside of the "Elite" bands.

Perhaps all the tMP members should boycott BBW until Dr Aitken either prints a public apology or they stop printing his drivel! (mind you I don't get BBW anyway, now I remember why!).

jingleram

22.02.2006, 15:47

Isn't that a tad extreme?!

Val

22.02.2006, 17:13

Just to return to the beginning (ie Trefor band's conduct rather than the Doctor), I have never seen a band publicly s****ed off on this forum - sure, there are many differences of opinion and arguments, but the moderators seem to operate very strict rules and remove offending posts. I have been on the committee of my band for many years and would be apalled and ashamed if we had ever acted in this manner against a band member, without providing any documentary proof or giving him the opportunity to explain himself. If you read the link in Hellraiser's post, it seems fairly clear that Rhodri was treated harshly and, just as important, that tmp have no involvement.

All I can say is, keep up the good work John. Oh, and Rhodri, if you want to continue your banding you need travel no further than ourselves to be assured of a very warm welcome. This may be my last post as I'm off to live in the South of France (without internet) so ... au revoir et bonne chance!

Sellers_Bird

22.02.2006, 17:18

Is this a wind up? :confused:

22.02.2006, 18:07

All I can say is, keep up the good work John. Oh, and Rhodri, if you want to continue your banding you need travel no further than ourselves to be assured of a very warm welcome. This may be my last post as I'm off to live in the South of France (without internet) so ... au revoir et bonne chance!
Val ... many thanks for your words of support both to Rhodri and John and the team.

We wish you all the best for your future across the sea. No internet access??:eek: How will you survive? Hope you manage to get hooked up and will find time in your busy new life to visit us again. :)

Is this a wind up? :confused:

Unfortunately not.

ploughboy

22.02.2006, 19:00

Anno Draconis

22.02.2006, 23:13

First can I wholeheartedly endorse all the positive messages of support that this site has had. I discovered it just over 6 months ago and have found it to be entertaining, informative, intelligent, funny and thought provoking. That I have had this much fun from something which is provided free by someone just because they want to do it fills me with respect and admiration (and even a warm fuzzy feeling inside sometimes).

Second, bear in mind that Golwg (and Cymro for that matter) as Welsh language publications with a strong Nationalist bias have a limited readership and an even more limited range of contributors. They cannot afford to alienate their small readership and even smaller constituency of contributors by indulging hemselves in editorial control; as a result on bad days they both have something of a reputation for allowing their writers' prejudices and personal hobby horses to pass into print unchecked and uncorroborated. It would appear that tMP has been a victim of this laziness. However the accusations appear to have originated from Seindorf Trefor and I suggest that John should write to them asking them to explain and retract these accusations. I would be interested to know the thoughts of the remaining members of Seindorf Trefor on this matter - are there any here?

Third, I bought BBW for the first 2 months it came out and haven't since, because it's bobbins. I'd ask them for an explanation and retraction too; the comment about "Nazis and Sunday School teachers" is stupid bordering on offensive, and possibly actionable by m'learned friends (although I presume you've better things to spend money on, like more funky new features for tMP:cool: )

hellraiser

23.02.2006, 19:43

Thanks for the support from everyone, much appreciated. Val- thanks for the kind offer but I joined Llanrug shortly after this farce, in time for Pontins, and am enjoying it there.

Some have suggested contacting the band committee in question. I don't rate your chances of a reply. I shall explain.

It is already in the public domain that two veterans and stalwarts of Trefor band, who I have a lot of respect for, resigned specifically because of the treatement I had received. They wrote to the committee expressing their dissatisfaction and raised a few questions. There was no reply, so they sent another letter but again no reply. It seems the committee has chosen to ignore these two gentlemen even though between them they have served the band for 100+ years.

are there any here?

I think so. Again, I don't rate your chances of a reply/explanation. No one from the band were prepared to speak on Gwilym Owen's programme on Radio Cymru this week.

Mister 4x4

24.02.2006, 00:30

Dr Aitken may not have expressed an opinion to the liking of many people here, but he's free to do that if he wants. I don't agree with him and I'm sure that most people here don't either.

Posting an unpopular opinion about a website and its members within the confines of the website privy only to its members is one thing.

Trashing said website and it's members in a public medium is entirely another - and completely inappropriate. Because now the public has now been presented a poor opinion of something they probably didn't even know existed... and you know what they say about first impressions.

His comments were not made on tMP and so can't be governed by the rules of this site, though I agree with what you are saying.

<snippage>

It's not nice to be openly criticised in any capacity but then you can't please everyone all of the time. The moderators here do a brilliant job of keeping order and long may that continue.

Those that don't like it can go read the BBW I suppose.

And therein lies the rub: because his comments were made in public with no previous public knowledge of how well the site is run and how much the members like it, the public is forced to base their first impressions on one man's poor opinions.

It's no different than those B.S. 'reality' shows where a family member chooses to air the dirty laundry on the tellie for the world to see, rather than solve the problem at home. What are your first impressions of those people? (Jerry Springer reference, anyone?)

Again, it's bunk. And I honestly think that the guy should either print a retraction with an apology, or if that's not possible - someone submit a rebuttal on behalf of tMP. Based on some other comments I've read both elsewhere and here, Brass Banding is slowly losing the public interest somewhat and doesn't need any negative publicity as such - especially the unfounded rubbish that was published.

Without something of the sort, the public will pretty much just go on without the knowledge that "The moderators here do a brilliant job of keeping order and long may that continue" because people these days don't have a long-enough attention span to come visit the site and see for themselves.

I know I'd be mad if someone pulled that trick on me. You're a better man than I am, John.

ronnie_the_lizard

24.02.2006, 09:11

Interestingly, Ken Livingstone made a very similar comment calling someone a "Nazi" (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4746016.stm)(and only verbally, not in print) and has been defending himself in court this week as a consequence.

2nd man down

24.02.2006, 10:03

He didn't even actually call the guy a Nazi either! He said that the journalists justification of why the intrusive behaviour could be likened to the attempted justification by the Nazi Concentration Camp guards that they were merely following orders and that they themselves weren't to blame.
He never actually said they were (or were like) like Nazi's, but that comparisons could be drawn between their spineless attempt at blame shifting .

andywooler

24.02.2006, 10:13

I would like to see someone from the band in question come on here and do one of the following:

a) provide proof of the alleged posts mentioned

or

b) apologise publicly to John and the team of mods.

And it needs to be done here because like many of you, I ceased subscription to the BB & BBW a long time ago.

Trigger

24.02.2006, 15:55

I have been on the committee of my band for many years and would be apalled and ashamed if we had ever acted in this manner against a band member, without providing any documentary proof or giving him the opportunity to explain himself. If you read the link in Hellraiser's post, it seems fairly clear that Rhodri was treated harshly and, just as important, that tmp have no involvement.

I agree with this and although I am certainly not in the business of commenting on other's bands, Trefor have made this a public matter, so they will need to deal with being a public topic of conversation now.

It appears that Trefor's attempts to ridicule one of their players has just backfired. I have visited the link that hell raiser posted and although we cannot be sure if the rest of the allegations are true or not, the fact that they were completely wrong about tmp only serves to make the rest of their allegations lose credibility. If they were so upset about this player's 'behaviour', why have they compounded the situation by making it public? Seems a bit daft to me - airing your dirty laundry in public - and if they were intent on doing it, they should have at least made sure they were right first. Like Andywooler, I too would like to know what the members of the band have to say about this.

I hate bitchy and bullying behaviour by any band, but unfortunately it happens. All I can say is, What goes around, comes around.

Good on tMP for your professional response to this pathetic situation. I can say that having been on many other discussion forums, none are as well run and moderated as this one.

hellraiser

24.02.2006, 22:24

I too would like to know what the members of the band have to say about this.

Have the committee actually explained to the rest of the band what they have done, and why? I received the sacking letter minutes before band rehearsal 7.30 on the Friday, the night after the sacking decision was taken. No announcement was made in this Friday rehearsal regarding this decision which is one reason why the news was such a shock some of the members when I informed them. I wonder if the rest of the band have been told yet?

(I'm not joking here, these are genuine serious questions.)

aqua76

25.02.2006, 08:49

We had a situation along a similar vein in Scotland few years back, abusive comments were being made by an anonymous poster on one of our forums and eventually this rose to the upper echelons of Scottish banding (just above the 2nd baritone i think ;-) hehe)

Anyway, it ended up being commented on in one of the SBBA executive meetings, (or possibly the AGM) Blame was pointed at the individual(they had since worked out, or implied they knew who theposer was), their band, and then finally the band to which the forum belonged.

People wanted to close down the forums etc, and basically tried to licence/regulate the whole thing.

Even now its a bit of a talking point....i know your situation John is slightly different but given we are in the technology age, every medum of communication is open to legal scrutiny.

When you are posting on here or any forum, you are still a representative of your organisation and as such, as was the feeling in Scotland, any comments you make can reflect on them. Guess people just need to rememeber that anyone can be out there reading our banter, and maybe not take it in the lighthearted manner it is intended to be in!

Phew, my longest post ever......enough already, im off to the rugby! :-)

JB

Red Elvis

26.02.2006, 00:23

Re the "Nazi" comment . As a member of several virtual communities its a well recognised fact that whenever one accuses another member or admin of acting like a "nazi" it's an argument of last resort and is generally treated with the contempt it deserves.

tmp is a great site - we have fallings-out with each other from time to time and can argue the toss about all manner of band related stuff but generally the debate is carried on at a good level. Fair play to you john and all the admins/hosts for the work you do for us.

TheMusicMan

26.02.2006, 00:26

Re the "Nazi" comment . As a member of several virtual communities its a well recognised fact that whenever one accuses another member or admin of acting like a "nazi" it's an argument of last resort and is generally treated with the contempt it deserves.Many thanks for your support. I agree with this comment except that the comment in question was not made on a www site, it was made and published in the Brass Band World monthly commercial publication.

For everyone's info - I have called the editor, who apparantly was not in, and I was advised who would call me back.

That was 5 days ago!!! no call yet.;) Any bets...???

ronnie_the_lizard

28.02.2006, 09:15

Yeah - my bet is that he's taking serious legal advice (possibly from Ken Livingstone's lawyers, but then again Ken lost his 'Nazi' comment case, so perhaps not.....)

Anno Draconis

28.02.2006, 09:24

For everyone's info - I have called the editor, who apparantly was not in, and I was advised who would call me back.

That was 5 days ago!!! no call yet.;) Any bets...???

No, not really. I'm not holding my breath. That said, I wouldn't let them off the hook - if the editor wants to allow comments like that to be published he's got to be prepared tp take the stick for it.

If anyone's got the address for "letters to the editor" (and if John thinks it would help)I'll happily send one of my best "annoyed of Manchester" letters written in green ink to express my disapproval!

FlugelD

01.03.2006, 00:55

For everyone's info - I have called the editor, who apparantly was not in, and I was advised who would call me back.

That was 5 days ago!!! no call yet.;) Any bets...???

If anyone's got the address for "letters to the editor" (and if John thinks it would help)I'll happily send one of my best "annoyed of Manchester" letters written in green ink to express my disapproval!

Personally, I reckon that letters are far to easily consigned to the round filing cabinet (you know, the one under the desk).

However, in any business, someone has to answer telephone calls.

TheMusicMan has a telephone number for the editor. tMP has over 6,000 members. Shouldn't we call to express our concern that the editor of BBW has failed to get in touch with the owner of a popular brass musicians message board that has, in our opinion, been unfairly dragged into a dispute that has nothing to with us or the MB? ;)

(The arithmetic:

Office hours, 9.00-5.00 = 8 hours, or 480 minutes, or 28,800 seconds.
28,800 seconds/6000 members = 4.8.seconds/member)

In simple terms, 500 tMP members - one twelfth of the registered users - could shut the BBW switchboard to incoming calls for an entire day, if they 'phone up and take just one minute to introduce themselves, explain why they're calling, and suggest that they'd like the matter cleared up amicably - assuming they all call on the same day, and redial if they get the 'busy' tone - continuously... ;) - costing them one days pay for a receptionist/telephonist to basically do nothing useful, with knock-on effect regarding their content, news, etc...

Not that I'd in any way condone such anarchic behaviour... Let's face it, BBW would probably have an editorial fit regarding 'spammers' adversely affecting their legitimate business...

Nah, buggrit, what's the number, John? And when should we start calling? ;)

(Sorry, AD, green ink has had its day. How are you on green emails? :) )

Anno Draconis

01.03.2006, 07:35

(Sorry, AD, green ink has had its day. How are you on green emails? :) )

Bring it on :D

Bob Sherunkle

01.03.2006, 09:50

The two original themes in this thread have become somewhat confused.

To summarize

Some petty infighting in an obscure Welsh band which apparently had nothing to do with tMP was reported in places no-one would have noticed it as though tMP was involved in some way.

This upset Mr MusicMan. No, I don’t know why either.

Secondly an obscure columnist in BBW magazine referred to a time in the distant past when he had upset Mr MusicMan by suggesting that Moderators was a misleading term in the context of tMP and suggested that perhaps “Nazis” might be a more appropriate title. Whilst the use of such an imotive term might be considered insensitive it was fairly clear that it was used to indicate overly authoritarian behaviour rather than suggesting that the Moderators were planning to invade Poland.

The column upset Mr MM again. His argument seemingly being that because his site is free to access it should be immune from any (even light hearted) criticism.

A small posse of tMP diehards have thrown their hats into the ring to support Mr MM, rather aggressively in some cases, despite not following the Welsh media or having read BBW which they all think is rubbish without needing to read it.

And now we have those who wish to instigate direct action against BBW for involving tMP in Welsh banding politics?

I look forward to the first post pointing the finger at the obscure columnist for the current crisis in Welsh Rugby and castigating the Welsh language media for starting World War II.

2nd man down

01.03.2006, 10:37

Some petty infighting in an obscure Welsh band which apparently had nothing to do with tMP was reported in places no-one would have noticed it as though tMP was involved in some way.

This upset Mr MusicMan. No, I don’t know why either.

No, you appear to be just about the only person who doesn't know why, and I'm pretty sure that if somone publicly criticised something that you'd put a lot of time and effort in to you'd want your say about it too. Don't try and tell me you wouldn't, it's human nature, we all would.

Secondly an obscure columnist in BBW magazine referred to a time in the distant past when he had upset Mr MusicMan by suggesting that Moderators was a misleading term in the context of tMP and suggested that perhaps “Nazis” might be a more appropriate title. Whilst the use of such an imotive term might be considered insensitive it was fairly clear that it was used to indicate overly authoritarian behaviour rather than suggesting that the Moderators were planning to invade Poland.

The column upset Mr MM again. His argument seemingly being that because his site is free to access it should be immune from any (even light hearted) criticism.

Obscure columnist or not, it was still published in a "not-so-obscure within the banding world" publication, and I don't think anyone said that tMP should be immune from any critisism, however accusing the mods of behaving like Nazi's for merely trying to keep a forum family friendly is hardly a suitable or appropriate comparison. Again, I don't think you'd like it said about you publicly either.

Anno Draconis

01.03.2006, 10:42

The two original themes in this thread have become somewhat confused.

Bob, from reading your post it seems to be you who is confused.

Some petty infighting in an obscure Welsh band which apparently had nothing to do with tMP was reported in places no-one would have noticed it as though tMP was involved in some way. This upset Mr MusicMan. No, I don’t know why either.

The (admittedly limited) readership of the publications in question may well have noticed it. This readership may or may not include some members of Welsh bands, especially those in strong welsh language areas e.g. Deiniolen or Llanrug. The point is, John and the rest of the team seem (to me) to pride themselves on carefully moderating this site and not allowing unsubstantiated malicious gossip about bands or players. To then be accused of precisely that by hack journalists who can't be bothered to take the same care even though they are paid to do so is annoying and insulting. It would upset me, too - even in an obscure publication with a limited readership.

Secondly an obscure columnist in BBW magazine referred to a time in the distant past when he had upset Mr MusicMan by suggesting that Moderators was a misleading term in the context of tMP and suggested that perhaps “Nazis” might be a more appropriate title. Whilst the use of such an imotive term might be considered insensitive it was fairly clear that it was used to indicate overly authoritarian behaviour rather than suggesting that the Moderators were planning to invade Poland.The column upset Mr MM again. His argument seemingly being that because his site is free to access it should be immune from any (even light hearted) criticism.

The use of the term "Nazis" is a personal insult to the team who do (in my opinion) a good job of running this site. Constructive criticism, light-hearted or otherwise, is fair enough, and from what I have seen of tMP is welcomed when it is made. Personal insults made in one of the movements leading magazines is not fair, especially when those insulted are denied the right of reply by the editor. Which leads me on to:

A small posse of tMP diehards have thrown their hats into the ring to support Mr MM, rather aggressively in some cases, despite not following the Welsh media or having read BBW which they all think is rubbish without needing to read it. And now we have those who wish to instigate direct action against BBW for involving tMP in Welsh banding politics?

I have been a member of the site only since November, and could hardly be described as a "diehard". My dad is a local councillor in North Wales and keeps me up to date with the Welsh media and although I don't take BBW (I've never liked the writing particularly) I have occasionally read someone else's copy on the coach or in the bandroom. I made a point of seeking out a copy to read this column for myself before posting. Since the editors of both publications have apparently declined to give John the right to defend his site (which he funds from his own pocket, let's remember) in print it would appear that the only recourse is for those who disagree or object to contact the editors directly. Why do you object to this? You were quick enough to defend your honour when you were accused (apparently wrongly) of being the famous Dr Murray Aitken (and your reply was not censored or edited in any way), yet you object to tMP wanting to similarly defend itself against slanderous misinformation and personal insults.

I look forward to the first post pointing the finger at the obscure columnist for the current crisis in Welsh Rugby and castigating the Welsh language media for starting World War II.

Now you're just being silly. I just object to the current trend (not just confined to Golwg and BBW) for lazy hack journalists who can't be bothered to do research, or even learn to write decent copy, printing any old rubbish (including "witty" insults) and then hiding behind the "freedom of the press" when called to account for it. With freedom to print the truth comes responsibility to print the truth, a responsibility sadly lacking in these two publication in these instances.

rutty

01.03.2006, 11:03

I just object to the current trend (not just confined to Golwg and BBW) for lazy hack journalists who can't be bothered to do research, or even learn to write decent copy, printing any old rubbish (including "witty" insults) and then hiding behind the "freedom of the press" when called to account for it. With freedom to print the truth comes responsibility to print the truth, a responsibility sadly lacking in these two publication in these instances.

I'd much rather that Journalists were free to express themselves how they wished than have to worry about censorship. This was intended to be a "humourous opinion piece" right? Whether it worked out that way is debateable but I would defend his right to have his opinion in print as much as I would the expression of tMPers displeasure at such an article.

Look, there's an opportunity here to get some parity. Someone could write an article about the benefits of a Brass Band community, perhaps one that maintains a family-friendly community. Perhaps it could be submitted to a certain Brass Band publication for print. Freedom of Expression can work both ways.

I'm just playing Devil's advocate here. I certainly don't agree with what Dr Aitken has written. I love this site as much as anyone :)

Anno Draconis

01.03.2006, 11:29

I'd much rather that Journalists were free to express themselves how they wished than have to worry about censorship. This was intended to be a "humourous opinion piece" right? Whether it worked out that way is debateable but I would defend his right to have his opinion in print as much as I would the expression of tMPers displeasure at such an article.

Oh, now the can of worms is open ;) . Cleverer people than me are currently scratching their heads over this one! I'm not suggesting that journalists should be subject to censorship, simply that they should exercise professional judgement (self-censorship if you like) before they print any old drivel. And I agree that the piece in BBW was meant to be a "humorous opinion" and everyone has a right to their opinion, but when you are given the right to express your opinion in print you are also handed the responsibility to use a certain amount of judgement. Personally* I don't feel it's acceptable to be gratuitously insulting in the name of "humour", which is why I'm not a big Bernard Manning fan! I also think it's pretty poor that the BBW editor won't even return John's phone calls - an editor should have the cojones to defend what he's printed.

*this of course is just my "opinion" ;)

WhatSharp?

01.03.2006, 11:46

I'd much rather that Journalists were free to express themselves how they wished than have to worry about censorship. This was intended to be a "humourous opinion piece" right? Whether it worked out that way is debateable but I would defend his right to have his opinion in print as much as I would the expression of tMPers displeasure at such an article.

As has recently been seen with a set of cartoons printed in a newspaper, one persons humour is anothers insult. I don't disagree with you about censorship, however it is only good manners to impose a degree of personal censorship. Escpecially when your views are going into print, humourous or not (print is not a good medium for satirical humour, the emotions of the writer are not always clear).

Look, there's an opportunity here to get some parity. Someone could write an article about the benefits of a Brass Band community, perhaps one that maintains a family-friendly community. Perhaps it could be submitted to a certain Brass Band publication for print. Freedom of Expression can work both ways.

But would they print it? they seem very reluctant to respond to MMs attempts to contact them. I'm suprised at their shortsightedness, especially when tMP probably has a wider circulation then BBW. Certainly I know more band members who log on to tMP than get BBW, not a good way to encourage more readership.

rutty

01.03.2006, 12:12

And I agree that the piece in BBW was meant to be a "humorous opinion" and everyone has a right to their opinion, but when you are given the right to express your opinion in print you are also handed the responsibility to use a certain amount of judgement.

Oh I totally agree with this. I think it was Spiderman's Uncle that said "with great power comes great responsibility" or something like that. That stands with the Cartoon fiasco too - it showed spectacularly poor judgement to print those but print them they did.

I don't think you can blame the BBW for printing what they did but they should allow redress via a submitted article or comment.

hellraiser

06.03.2006, 18:37

I hear that those who are making the allegations against me are continuing to do so locally (I have witnesses). Yet they declined an invitation to go on Welsh national radio and have not shown up on this website to explain themselves. Why?

I believe, from what I've seen and heard, that the allegations are based on "quote-mining". There's good links on this practice here-:
http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Quote-mining
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quote_mining

... extracting (mining) quotations from their proper context so as to make the quoted-mined person appear to be saying something very different than what he really did say.

The article written by the band to Golwg magazine consisted of several misquotations and selective quotations. Quote mining, basically.

As the above link explains, if one can quote mine the bible and come up with "The Lord... is evil" or "There is no God", then it just goes to show what can be done with any written material. If you've written hundreds of posts on tMP then that's a big mine for those who would wish to quote mine you.

Quote mining, in my opinion, is morally reprehensible. But it is something that all users of tMP and the internet generally should be aware of. Sadly, there are people out there who view the things you write as material to quote mine, and won't show you the respect of accepting the context in which your comments were made. It would be impossible to moderate a website to avoid allegations made by quote miners, because they could use absolutely anything you write- you'd just have to shut the site down!

The only way you can be safe from quote miners is to not write anything at all on the internet. If bandspeople took those precautions, there would be no tMP and without tMP the banding scene would be poorer.

For those of us who enjoy discussing our hobby/passion with others, via the internet, then we must stand strong against those who wish to undermine such discussion.

I sincerely hope that some good can come of this awful situation. One good outcome would be that a strong message is being sent out that quote mining is not something that the banding online community is willing to tolerate- any aspiring quote miners take note.

mikelyons

06.03.2006, 18:54

I don't think anyone has the right to accuse someone of something, however banal, without a shred of proof.

It seems to me that there has been a lack of justice in all this.

And for those who think it's not important what is published in "an obscure Welsh band which apparently had nothing to do with tMP was reported in places no-one would have noticed it" - just a real example for you.

My school band is being affected by misinformation being promulgated by individuals in an obscure local band. This is resulting in children in that band being reluctant to join said school band. Result - school band is really only a quartet! - And that is only through word of mouth.

John has every right to protest about misinformation given out to journalists - no matter how obscure - by a band, no matter how obscure, which might ultimately reflect on his reputation.

I don't think accusations of Nazism, however humourously conceived by their perpetrator would be viewed as humourous by the recipient.

I have always found all of the mods on this forum to work for the best interests of the majority of the members. And all of them have my support - even when they mod me. In most cases, I have deserved it.

Can we now start to get on with the rest of our lives, or are we going to continue having a Tessa Jowl moment for the rest of the year?