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GingerMaestro
14.02.2006, 11:30
In the 1st movement of Entertainments thier is a Tied note which as it is written should be played as a Trem but if you listen to a recording of this it could mistaken for a flutter what do you think I personally play it as a Trem from 2/3 to 1 I have also be told you can get away with 2/3 to 3 but to me the 3rd valve G# does not lay easy on the ear

Steve
14.02.2006, 11:36
.....which as it is written should be played as a Trem

There is the answer!!!!! Until Mr Conductor decides otherwise anyway.

KMJ Recordings
14.02.2006, 13:31
Er, what note is it again?

If it's a tremelo, then the two notes should be the same on both valve combinations - the only one with 2nd and 2/3 that I can think of is a D# (or Eb ;) )in the stave - but you mention G#? To do a tremelo that involves a G# with the combination you've described would take you up another octave...

I know I'm being pedantic - but is it a trem or a till?

GingerMaestro
14.02.2006, 14:00
In the 1st movement of Entertainments thier is a Tied note which as it is written should be played as a Trem but if you listen to a recording of this it could mistaken for a flutter what do you think I personally play it as a Trem from 2/3 to 1 I have also be told you can get away with 2/3 to 3 but to me the 3rd valve G# does not lay easy on the ear

Where did i mention 2/3 to 2
:hammer

Anno Draconis
14.02.2006, 14:06
It's unclear, normally I'd expect the part to specify which, we're playing it as a flutter. It may be that the recording sounds like a flutter because it's a really fast trem though..!

KMJ Recordings
14.02.2006, 14:06
Sorry - brain has taken a holiday this afternoon! :oops:

That said, can you play a G# on 3rd valve - I always though it was an A? (or a G nat?) ;)

1alexm
14.02.2006, 16:11
I play solo cornet, meaning that i have top G# it is marked as a tremalow but according to my mates, its impossible to do it, so i just flutter tounge or just hold the note.
(yes i'm a cheater)

Baritonedeaf
14.02.2006, 17:40
Well i am playing a flutter tongue...

Not been pointed out as wrong yet - although to be fair the MD may still be working through my other errors first :biggrin:!

imthemaddude
14.02.2006, 22:08
The whole band almost has the trem and most of people like the rep have a nice note- an E and I would have thought that if the majority of the band play it, the people that cant would be ok because its FF and the others would compensate for a few on a held note.

GJG
15.02.2006, 10:28
that i have top G# it is marked as a tremalow but according to my mates, its impossible to do it,

Not so. Top G# tremolo can be executed by alternating 2/3 with 1/2/3.

It's not the most user-friendly tremolo, and will require a fair amount of first-valve trigger to bring the tuning down. It will also require a bit of practice until you get used to the 'feel' of it, but it's certainly not unplayable. It is also possible, with practice, to do it pretty fast, which might explain why it sounds like a 'flutter'

G.

cornetcheese
15.02.2006, 12:24
It's definately a tremolo - if it were to be fluttered, I would have assumed there would be an "flutter" or "flz" something somewhere on the part? I've seen many cases in scores of other pieces when a note is written in this way to mean a tremolo.

Incidentally, with regard to the G# tremolo, I've got the front row at Woodbrige doing this on 23/123 - seems to work quite well!

cornetcheese
15.02.2006, 12:25
Just realised Mr. Green got their first, duh!

rutribal
16.02.2006, 23:36
It should also be possible to play a G# on 1st valve as well. In the same way as you can play most upper register notes on the fingering for the note a tone above.

For example - F can be played on 1 and 3 (like a G)
G can be played on 1 and 2 (like A)
A can be played on 2 (like a B)

Cannot remember exactly, but it has something to do with the closer proximity of the frequency of the harmonics as you increase in pitch.

So other alternatives for a G# tremolo could be:

1 - 2 and 3
1 - 1, 2 and 3

Anno Draconis
17.02.2006, 07:54
Cannot remember exactly, but it has something to do with the closer proximity of the frequency of the harmonics as you increase in pitch.


Spot on. The harmonic series starting from the pedal note, goes octave - 5th - 4th - major 3rd - minor 3rd - very flat (!) augmented 2nd- major second. So 1st valve gives you pedal Bb-Bb below the stave-F-Bb-D-F-G#(flat!)-Bb. Subsequently the series gets very close together so in theory you can play any note above top line F# on 123 using the triggers to bring it down if it's sharp, although in practice it often sounds hideous! As a general rule of thumb, the more valves you use, the more out of tune the note is likely to be since a cornet doesn't have the compensating tubing of a euph or bass.

euphybeast
24.02.2006, 10:42
Surely flutter tongueing is a form of tremelo?

flower girl
24.02.2006, 18:22
hudds brass are playing it as a tremalo. on 2nd and 3rd valves, to all three.

Jughead
24.02.2006, 18:25
Surely flutter tongueing is a form of tremelo? Now your just being silly:oops:

GJacko
24.02.2006, 23:03
Personally, I'd go for the trem. If I remember correctly, it's written on just about every part. If your third section band is anything like ours, you probably have mixed ability players. At fff, go for effect. In most upper register playing, you can use a whole series of valve combinations as described already by some greater technicians than I.

BTW, if it's the regionals CD recording you're listening to, keep it for pleasure, not reference (referring to the recording of Entertainments). I don't think it's fantastic!!

meandmycornet
24.02.2006, 23:17
We are tremalo-ing.... well i'm not myself... third cornet's just have a held note :tongue: the rest of them are temalo-ing though... thats what it says on the part... there was nothing on the errata sheet to say that it should be flutter tongued instead.. so obviously dear Mr Vinter wanted it tremalo-ed... yes?

Naomi McFadyen
24.02.2006, 23:26
It's definately a tremolo - if it were to be fluttered, I would have assumed there would be an "flutter" or "flz" something somewhere on the part?

^Agreed...

And an old piece.... I suspect they didnt flutter too often back then ;-)

Incidentally, no1, in my opinion, should go exactly by what a recording does... go by the score and trust your MD... :)

Baritonedeaf
27.02.2006, 13:49
Agreed about the recording - there are a number of Baritone bits that jsut don't exist on the recording - the Top A Solo going into the slower bit of Movement 1 for instance...

They (Area CDs) are there to give a bit of interest - not to copy or mimic.

As it is an effect there is not too much difference to be honest - I think we are going to do a bit of both! Should be interesting!

Anno Draconis
27.02.2006, 14:23
Strictly speaking the notation (3 bars above the note) simply means to play it as demisemiquavers; anything else should be written (i.e. "trem" or "fl" or something). Vinter did use flutter tongue effects in the 60s (as did Eric Ball) so it's quite possible it should be a flutter. Like a lot in Entertainments, it should have been picked up and clarified by the publishers!

Baritonedeaf
27.02.2006, 14:33
It will be interesting to see how different bands interpret the piece...

I always enjoy the few seconds of panic before they start on stage whilst you are in the registration room... Will it be the same piece?!

GJacko
27.02.2006, 15:08
Strictly speaking the notation (3 bars above the note) simply means to play it as demisemiquavers; anything else should be written (i.e. "trem" or "fl" or something). Vinter did use flutter tongue effects in the 60s (as did Eric Ball) so it's quite possible it should be a flutter. Like a lot in Entertainments, it should have been picked up and clarified by the publishers!
You're probably right. But take a look at the Alan Morrison response to a question raised yeaterday. It was something like '.....if you play all the right notes, and in tune, you will win.'

Don't loose focus on the basics, especially in this piece. The trem, flutter, demi discussion won't win or loose this one. If it does, I'll give up!!!!!!!
(not really)

Baritonedeaf
27.02.2006, 15:18
I agree with Dr Childs (no less)
http://http://www.4barsrest.com/articles/2006/art541c.asp
the key bits are the slower sections in movement 1 and 2 - a real chance for the solo voices to win (or lose) the contest.

Some really good Bari bits in there too - which is good :-D

It is nice to worry about the details though - take your mind off the fact that there are less than two weeks left to get it ready!!

Argh!