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johnmartin
03.08.2005, 00:02
How about

Championship Section
Journey to the Centre of the Earth - Peter Graham

1st Section
Voyage of Discovery - Goff Richards

2nd Section
Images of the Millennium - Howard Snell

3rd Section
Entertainments - Gilbert Vinter

4th Section
Anglian Dances - Alan Fernie

At least that's what it says on the Scottish Brass Band Association website (http://www.sbba.org.uk)

Dave Euph
03.08.2005, 00:17
Interesting, I'll wait for a full announcement from somewhere like 4BR myself (not that I'm doubting the SBBA's credibility ;-)) but if they're right, I'm really looking forward to "Journey to Centre of the Earth". :D

jonford
03.08.2005, 12:46
How about

Championship Section
Journey to the Centre of the Earth - Peter Graham

1st Section
Voyage of Discovery - Goff Richards

2nd Section
Images of the Millennium - Howard Snell

3rd Section
Entertainments - Gilbert Vinter

4th Section
Anglian Dances - Alan Fernie

At least that's what it says on the Scottish Brass Band Association website (http://www.sbba.org.uk)

Strange, Aren't these announcements a bit early?

Robin Norman
03.08.2005, 13:27
How about

Championship Section
Journey to the Centre of the Earth - Peter Graham

1st Section
Voyage of Discovery - Goff Richards

2nd Section
Images of the Millennium - Howard Snell

3rd Section
Entertainments - Gilbert Vinter

4th Section
Anglian Dances - Alan Fernie

At least that's what it says on the Scottish Brass Band Association website (http://www.sbba.org.uk/)


I've spoken to two of the listed publishers this morning who, after checking the SBBA website themselves to make sure I wasn't trying to pull a swift one, confirmed their respective pieces and that they had been informed recently. I suppose, therefore, that we can trust the entire list. (He says calling his supplier to order Journey to the Centre of the Earth).

Laserbeam bass
03.08.2005, 13:54
2nd Section - The East Ham Suite
3rd Section - Boadicea, Queen of the Iceni.
:rolleyes:

Close but no cigar :rolleyes:

PeterBale
03.08.2005, 13:55
We at tMP have it on good authority that the pieces given are indeed those selected, the information having been received by John Martin via email as an official press release dated 1st August, and for immediate inclusion on the website.

The announcement is certainly earlier than last year, when the news broke on 10th September, the weekend of the Lower Sections National Finals.

Naomi McFadyen
03.08.2005, 13:59
1st sections bands are in for a treat.. this piece is a good one, especially for Goff fans! Played the piece in uni this year and it's really cool, some great moments....

Good lineup of pieces.... :-) can't wait to hear bands playing these :D

PeterBale
03.08.2005, 14:04
I believe that "Images of the Millennium" was originally intended for two bands: has this been re-arranged specially for the contest?

Darth_Tuba
03.08.2005, 14:24
Images of the Millenium was written for two bands, and I seem to remember there being narration involved. However I think the A band parts work as a stand alone piece. Quite testing for 2nd section I would think.

impycornet
03.08.2005, 14:44
---

impycornet
03.08.2005, 14:45
Images of the Millenium was written for two bands, and I seem to remember there being narration involved. However I think the A band parts work as a stand alone piece. Quite testing for 2nd section I would think.


There was indeed narration involved - And I seem to remember rifle shots too !!!

I assume there has been some re-scoring to turn it into a 1-band test piece

Dave1
03.08.2005, 15:02
Entertainments is going to be a cracker as well especially on the back of Tam O'Shanter this year. third section bands should really enjoy working on this one.

Nigel Hall
03.08.2005, 16:59
3rd Section
Entertainments - Gilbert Vinter If this is correct, once again the 3rd section get stuck with a piece that very few bands will be able to make a good performance of. When Oh when will they learn.........................

flugel4rent
03.08.2005, 17:35
Journey to the Centre of the Earth - Peter Graham

That should certainly sort the wheat from the chaff as they say. Just what was needed after Rienzi.

super_sop
03.08.2005, 17:40
hmmmmmmmmm!!!
Entertainments certainly sounds like its going to be a test for the 3rd section!!!
on 1st impression anyway!:redface:

imthemaddude
03.08.2005, 18:11
hmmmmmmmmm!!!
Entertainments certainly sounds like its going to be a test for the 3rd section!!!
on 1st impression anyway!:redface:

Ive played it and I tell you I'm glad im not on sop!

meandmycornet
03.08.2005, 18:46
so do you people think entertainments is easier or harder than tam?? hmm sounds like were going too have fun with that one anyway!

the assisstant
03.08.2005, 18:53
Has anyone heard Journey to the centre of the earth before? Whats it like? is there a recording of it anywhere? Am I instore for a hernia and blackouts......

Jan H
03.08.2005, 19:14
Has anyone heard Journey to the centre of the earth before? Whats it like? is there a recording of it anywhere? Am I instore for a hernia and blackouts......
The EBBC2005 Highlights CD should be available at the end of this month... http://www.4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=1310

JR
03.08.2005, 20:31
The EBBC2005 Highlights CD should be available at the end of this month... http://www.4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=1310

And what's the betting this recording shows up on next year's "Regionals"CD?
And don't you think this choice gives Dyke an ever so slight advantage at St Georges Hall?
Let's face it they've not only seen it months before anyone else, they slaughtered the opposition with it (including Cory's) at the European!
I just hope Dyke get in the first 3 at London thus pre-qualifying, that way, in view of this choice at the area, there will be a slightly leveller playing field.


john r

Dave Euph
03.08.2005, 21:20
And what's the betting this recording shows up on next year's "Regionals"CD?
And don't you think this choice gives Dyke an ever so slight advantage at St Georges Hall?
Let's face it they've not only seen it months before anyone else, they slaughtered the opposition with it (including Cory's) at the European!
I just hope Dyke get in the first 3 at London thus pre-qualifying, that way, in view of this choice at the area, there will be a slightly leveller playing field.


john r
Had crossed my mind as well, perhaps it would explain the early announcement? Although it would be a little OTT I think to start rehearsing the piece already! :lol:

Will the Sec
03.08.2005, 21:24
so do you people think entertainments is easier or harder than tam?? hmm sounds like were going too have fun with that one anyway!

It's certainly as challenging, and will test which bands can understand how to play (a) cross rhythms, (b) beuatifully, and (c) weird stuff.

I'm looking forward to it...

jonford
03.08.2005, 21:56
And what's the betting this recording shows up on next year's "Regionals"CD?
And don't you think this choice gives Dyke an ever so slight advantage at St Georges Hall?
Let's face it they've not only seen it months before anyone else, they slaughtered the opposition with it (including Cory's) at the European!
I just hope Dyke get in the first 3 at London thus pre-qualifying, that way, in view of this choice at the area, there will be a slightly leveller playing field.


john r

I don't really think it does give them an advantage. If bands really want to it gives them almost 6 months to practise the test piece which should be plenty of time for most championship section bands

JR
03.08.2005, 22:49
If this is correct, once again the 3rd section get stuck with a piece that very few bands will be able to make a good performance of. When Oh when will they learn.........................

Absolutely correct - 2005's 2nd Section (Variations for Brass band) and (particularly) 3rd Section (Tam O'Shanter) choices were ridiculous - this was blindingly obvious - barely a handful of bands in Britain could get near them - this view was backed up not just by conductors or adjudicators such as me but by the band press as a whole - particularly Iwan Fox on 4br
I fear a re-run of this year's 3rd section mess with Gilbert Vinter's Entertainments.
The panel seem to have an extremely confused view of the current standard of the British 3rd grade. Last year's FINALS piece was Diamond Heritage by Darrol Barry. The gulf in technical/musical ability required to play this piece compared with either Tam O'Shanter or Entertainments is enormous.
I think there should be a clear and distinct difference between Area pieces and Finals pieces - quite simply the Finals choice should be much more difficult, not the other way around


john r

KMJ Recordings
03.08.2005, 23:19
Journey to the Centre of the Earth - Peter Graham

That should certainly sort the wheat from the chaff as they say. Just what was needed after Rienzi.

In what context? I found it extremely interesting that quite a lot of the top Bands underestimated it in various ways.

If you mean polar opposite, fair enough, but Rienzi was difficult in different ways.

I also agree that Entertainments is possibly stretching it abit far for the 3rd Section, but only time will tell.

Will the Sec
03.08.2005, 23:37
I prefer the Rick Wakeman version myself:rolleyes:

imthemaddude
03.08.2005, 23:38
This years 4th section finals piece requires nearly all the band to be able to flutter tongue and techniques found in the 3rd section rather than the 4th. Entertainments is going to be an even bigger step for those bands that have just been promoted yet alone the top of the 3rd section table bands. It will be quite a change from Malvern suite which we have to play at the durham league contest! There are many good players that are good enough for higher section bands that will relish the challenge and just think how much better the band will be after the area for being stretched.

Neil Glynn
03.08.2005, 23:49
Anyone got any clue what the euph part's like for Entertainments? Forewarned is forearmed!

imthemaddude
04.08.2005, 00:03
HARD!!!!!!! technical....

KMJ Recordings
04.08.2005, 02:00
Anyone got any clue what the euph part's like for Entertainments? Forewarned is forearmed!

No such thing as an easy piece - and this certainly isn't one of them :biggrin:. Get it early ;)

madandcrazytromboneguy
04.08.2005, 04:53
any1 know what the trombone parts are like for the 1st section piece?, could do with knowing, hope the solo parts playable, i wanna have a crack at it!

madandcrazytromboneguy
04.08.2005, 05:08
just 1 point to make about the pieces and bands involved.

it has to be said, and no offense to any bands here, but the yorkshire section in a big part of it has the stronger bands, now the question has to be made, could the 4th section L+SC bands play the 4th section piece, if they can then its most likely that the other regions 4th section bands can play it (i say most likely, obviously all bands are of different abilities).

what im saying is, these pieces should be chosen with the following points to consider:

1stly, that all bands should at least be able to perform the piece to a degree where they dont make a mess of it on the day

2ndly on the other hand, the pieces should be of a difficulty where the bands are not given an easy ride.

all the pieces should be playable, YET! also challenging aswell.

it makes you wonder if these points are being considered, altho i'll be honest, ive not seen or heard any of the 5 pieces chosen 4 the regionals 2006, so i can't pass comment on those specifically just yet.

i felt that viscaya was a harder piece than kalaidascope and so they should have switched sections, ie 2nd do vis. and 3rd do kal.

tam o.s. should have been the 2nd section piece, but var.4.brass was a bit too difficult for the 2nd section, so maybe the 1st should have had that, i didnt make much of the comedy overture, it didnt seem all that comedic anyway, i'd have scrapped that 1 for that contest.

the 3rd section seems to have had some of the more tunefull pieces in recent yrs, rather than the 2nd section, which gets all the duff 1s, well duff in comparison.

ive been very keen on 3rd section pieces such as st austell suite, cherchebi, northern landscapes, viscaya, and tam o shanters ride.

not been so keen on kalaidascope, celestial prospect, belmont variations, or symphony for brass.

what do you think the choosers take in to account when choosing the pieces for the contests?

perhaps a chooser themself may be able to shed some light on this?

yorkie19
04.08.2005, 08:56
I'll guarantee one thing.

There will be complaints about the choice of test piece because

a)People will think they are too easy / too hard.
b) There will be hints that the band that does the recording for the Championship section piece will have an unfair advantage.
c) Some people won't like the choice of test piece.

Oh. Looks like it might have started already. Great, that will be another 6 months of complaining.

sywity
04.08.2005, 09:27
Can anyone tell me what the Solo Horn part is like for Entertainments please - I have never even seen the piece before!!!!:confused:



cheers



Simon Scholes
Solo Horn
Pilling Jubilee Silver Band

Griffin
04.08.2005, 09:36
Its on 4 bars rest now..
http://www.4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=1322

stopher
04.08.2005, 10:11
YESSSSSS!

Am looking forward to wagging Entertainments already - played it years ago and loved it. 2nd movement if I remember correctly is a horn feature and the last movement should be fun trying to get the off beats in the right place! Could be a class or comedy moment!!!!

Heard Dyke playing Journey to the Centre of the Earth in the anniverary concert. Sounded excellent piece on the first listening but am wondering if we'll have to do all the whispering - can imagine nobody will stick to what is written!

Don't really know about the other pieces (or to be brutally honest care!)

Cochyn
04.08.2005, 10:38
www, Voyage of Discovery...nice one that!


Looking forward now!

WoodenFlugel
04.08.2005, 10:48
...Am looking forward to wagging Entertainments already - played it years ago and loved it. 2nd movement if I remember correctly is a horn feature and the last movement should be fun trying to get the off beats in the right place! Could be a class or comedy moment!!!!

The second movement of Entertainments (Elergy) is a cornet feature.;)


Its a really good piece - very enjoyable both to play and listen to. Whether the average 3rd section band will be able to play it is an entirely different matter though. For me I think its too hard and will cause lots of problems in all three movements for a lot of bands.

I'm not sure were the selection commitee are going with the choices of the recent area pieces. My own pet theory is that they are trying to close the gaps up between the sections by stretching bands at the one contest they will all enter. Thats fine, but the risk is that bands will struggle so much that they eventually give up. Also its hardly likely to encourage people "from outside" to come and listen if all they're going to get for their money is several ropey performances of the same piece. Although, with the oncoming threat of making bandsmen pay to listen to their own section maybe they have simply given up trying to encourage members of the public in to listen. :confused:

Oh, I've never heard any of the other pieces so can't really pass comment on them.

Di
04.08.2005, 10:51
I'll ask since Vic isn't here to do it. Anyone know what the solo horn part is like to Voyage of Discovery? :)

Chris Sanders
04.08.2005, 11:49
I prefer the Rick Wakeman version myself:rolleyes:

I wanna hire Tim Burton to Narrate over the Mic...

stevetrom
04.08.2005, 11:56
If this is correct, once again the 3rd section get stuck with a piece that very few bands will be able to make a good performance of. When Oh when will they learn.........................

its supposed to be a test, if they used a piece that everyone could play easily it would not be much of a test

postie
04.08.2005, 12:13
I suppose it is good news that bands know what they have got to play now. It is pretty embarassing that the information seems to have leaked out.

stevetrom
04.08.2005, 12:41
I just pity the players in some bands I could mention ;) whose conductors will have the area piece out before the end of the month!

6 months of slogging away at the same piece would drive me mad !

Andy_Euph
04.08.2005, 14:59
Not a bad selection of pieces.

Entertainments is the only one I know of and the euph part has a couple of tricky moments and the last movement could sound like a house falling down if the off beats get out of time.

I've heard Journey to the Centre of the Earth and thoguht it was a good piece, very descriptive

Only one I wasn't keen on is Voyage of Discovery

stevetrom
04.08.2005, 15:14
Only one I wasn't keen on is Voyage of Discovery

Why?

I don't know the piece but I will be playing it, I know lots of people really liked Comedy but I was'nt one of them so I was hoping for a good piece next time around.

GJG
04.08.2005, 15:30
I just pity the players in some bands I could mention ;) whose conductors will have the area piece out before the end of the month!

Not in the second section, I don't think!

Having spoken today with my regular music supplier, it would seem that

a) "Images" has not yet been released for sale by Kirklees/Rakeway (unclear at this stage whether this is a "revised" version, or a "re-origination")
b) Kirklees are currently on Summer shutdown, presumably not having expected the apparently premature/accidental announcement for some time yet.

Please don't take any of the above as "gospel"; I am happy to be corrected, however I'm not holding my breath.

G.

ted
04.08.2005, 15:30
Entertainments is well within reach of the best 3rd section bands methinks.

Afterall the Areas are there to sort the top 2 or 3 bands in the each region from the rest. So if the top 2 or 3 bands in each region can perform the piece then it justifies the test selection, you don't need every band to be able to play the piece for it to be a good test. A good test sorts out the best bands from the good bands.

The notes are easy, but it's difficult to know when to play them. From memory, euph has a tricky solo at the beginning of the 3rd movement. A lot of rehearsal work will pull this one off!

Good luck!

ted

Andy_Euph
04.08.2005, 15:43
Why?

I don't know the piece but I will be playing it, I know lots of people really liked Comedy but I was'nt one of them so I was hoping for a good piece next time around.

Jus a personal opinon, i'm not an overly huge Goff Richards fan, don't get me wrong pieces like Oceans are excellent but playing Cherchebi a few years ago put me off :biggrin: . I heard band 1 at uni play it not too long ago and just wasn't too moved by it, think the opeing couple of bars have some funky fingering for most of the band like. Was a semiqauvery type of piece though if memory serves me right and certainly think it will be a test for a lot of bands.

Darth_Tuba
04.08.2005, 15:46
Why on earth would anyone want to start rehearsing next year's area piece now?! If it takes you eight months to get a piece of less than 20 minutes up to scratch then I really do wonder. Let's all worry about it after Christmas.

yorkie19
04.08.2005, 15:48
or in April!

GJG
04.08.2005, 15:57
Why on earth would anyone want to start rehearsing next year's area piece now?!

Perhaps in order to use it at another "own-choice" contest before the qualifiers? or maybe even, (shock-horror!!) at a concert? ;)

Chris Sanders
04.08.2005, 15:59
I heard band 1 at uni play it not too long ago and just wasn't too moved by it

I feel the same about it...

the assisstant
04.08.2005, 16:55
Has anyone listened to journey to the centre of the earth before? Ive heard that it is very difficuilt.

NeilW
04.08.2005, 17:08
Why?

I don't know the piece but I will be playing it, I know lots of people really liked Comedy but I was'nt one of them so I was hoping for a good piece next time around.

I don't know it either, but there's a a bit of Voyage of Discover (VoD!) at:
http://www.obrasso.ch/shop/artikel/brass_band/originalwerke/marsch.htm
at the bottom (soundfile). I think its just the beginning, and it loops until you cancel it....

Sounds quite exciting - lots of notes for the cornets...

Neil.

andyp
04.08.2005, 19:20
Sorry to sound negative....but I don't like Entertainments!

I liked the last two years pieces, Vizcaya and Tam O'Shanter, but not this one. We did it a few years ago for own choice and I didn't enjoy it then. Oh well, at least we won't see it till after Xmas I suppose.

I think a contest as major as this should have new pieces every time - gives a level playing field for everyone and some variety in the listening. Would encourage new composers too.

Roger Thorne
04.08.2005, 21:02
Many, many thanks to the Music Selection Committee for once again overlooking the Percussion parts in 3rd Section Choice 'Entertainments'.
I'm sure our Xylophone player will be ecstatic with the four bars they'll have to play, and our Side Drummer will love the 'on-the-beat' crochets and quavers. Wait - there's a Wood Block playing semiquavers!! Yipeeeee! and the Timp player has TWO notes to play. WOW!!!

But . . . it can all be played by one player.

Looks like we'll have to drop another percussionists for the third year running.

>sigh<

PS: I also think its too difficult for the majority of 3rd Section Bands - mine included!

;)

mikelyons
04.08.2005, 22:52
Championship Section
Journey to the Centre of the Earth - Peter Graham
I don't know this, but I hope it's better real music than windows of the world.

1st Section
Voyage of Discovery - Goff Richards
We've been playing this for a while. Our glorious leader's idea of training. It has taken a long time to start growing on me - a bit like moss, however, it is starting to, but I prefer listening to someone else struggling with the stupid semiquavers at the beginning and that ridiculous and pointless bass quartet thing in the middle.

2nd Section
Images of the Millennium - Howard Snell
No idea, but I suspect it's rubbish. The title sort of has that feel about it. I'm also not all that foind of Snell arrangements (though I believe some people can't get enough)

3rd Section
Entertainments - Gilbert Vinter
Excellent, if somewhat old fashioned. This piece can best be described as beautiful and quirky. It will test all 3rd section bands and even most 2nd section.

4th Section
Anglian Dances - Alan Fernie
Alan Fernie seems to be going into overdrive at the moment, and is in danger of becoming ubiquitous - and quite possibly filthy rich ;)

Just my humble opinions, folks

johnflugel
04.08.2005, 23:02
2nd Section
Images of the Millennium - Howard Snell
No idea, but I suspect it's rubbish. The title sort of has that feel about it. I'm also not all that foind of Snell arrangements (though I believe some people can't get enough)


Give it a chance.....blimey, talk about sweeping statement!

meandmycornet
04.08.2005, 23:22
It's certainly as challenging, and will test which bands can understand how to play (a) cross rhythms, (b) beuatifully, and (c) weird stuff.

I'm looking forward to it...

Well we should be ok with C! not that we can play weird stuff but we play weird! :tongue: I hope I like it as much as I like Tam :D

Brian Kelly
04.08.2005, 23:37
"Entertainments" is a terrific piece! I didn't recognise it from the title, but I dug it out from my CD collection, and I recognised immediately the beautiful second section. I'm a fan of Vinter's music. It's going to be tough, but I am looking forward to it much more than "Tam O'Shanter".


It is on "Spectrum - the music of Gilbert Vinter Volume 1", recorded by Faireys in 1993, conducted by Major Peter Parkes. Well worth getting if it is still available.

madandcrazytromboneguy
05.08.2005, 02:15
ive just heard 40 seconds worth of VoD and it doesnt have the cheezy goff section in that so at least thats 40 seconds worth of no cheezy playing, feel sorry for the poor guys havin all them semi-q's, could they even be d.s.q's?, hope trombones dont have em, lol, i wanna be able to play my solo trombone part, not struggle with it ;) :P

Charmed
05.08.2005, 06:23
Many, many thanks to the Music Selection Committee for once again overlooking the Percussion parts in 3rd Section Choice 'Entertainments'.
I'm sure our Xylophone player will be ecstatic with the four bars they'll have to play, and our Side Drummer will love the 'on-the-beat' crochets and quavers. Wait - there's a Wood Block playing semiquavers!! Yipeeeee! and the Timp player has TWO notes to play. WOW!!!

But . . . it can all be played by one player.

Looks like we'll have to drop another percussionists for the third year running.

>sigh<

PS: I also think its too difficult for the majority of 3rd Section Bands - mine included!

;)

I remember over the last couple of years 3rd and 4th section bands have sometimes complained over the amount of percussion work in their test pieces, saying its difficult to engage percussion players.

This can also affect higher section bands - lots of percussion work, sometimes requiring 4 or more percussionists. And in today's climate, I find percussion players who can or who want to commit to a band a rare breed. If you look at the classifieds, most bands are continously advertising for percussion. Am I wrong?

tsawyer
05.08.2005, 10:57
This can also affect higher section bands - lots of percussion work, sometimes requiring 4 or more percussionists. And in today's climate, I find percussion players who can or who want to commit to a band a rare breed. If you look at the classifieds, most bands are continously advertising for percussion. Am I wrong?

You're not wrong. We only have two full time percussionists, so if any percussionists out there want a go at Journey to the Centre of the Earth, let me know!

Tim.

The Rag
05.08.2005, 11:52
The EBBC2005 Highlights CD should be available at the end of this month... http://www.4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?id=1310

This maybe mentioned elsewhere (sorry not read every single post) but you've got the Euro CD/DVD, Regionals disc and Black Dyke's 150th Anniversary Concert DVD from Manchester where they played the piece

I love it, but just feel that its been chosen too soon after beinf used as an own choice work earlier in the year.

St Magnus is a great piece but its not had time to breathe since being used in Glasgow in May 04 and hasn't been put away and brought out again after a break

I hope this doesn't happen with JOurney - its perhaps not as difficult as Music of the Spheres which will be a relief to many

ScreamingSop
05.08.2005, 13:13
I am afraid i am another one who isnt keen on Voyage of discovery

having played it at uni last year, i just think it is more of the same of goff richards. Fair enough the opening is very tricky, with running semiquavers for all the cornets. And there are difficult parts for the Euph espesh, with one of the movements being nearly a whole euph solo. A strange time signiture bit is easily worked out, which then leads on to a ridiculously hard sop cadenza finishing on a double piano top C (which is the only thing the sop really has to do, except covering front row, as usual).
Just not that keen on the piece at all, having spent a lot of time rehursing it at uni last year. was expecting a much more exciting piece in all honesty.

stevetrom
05.08.2005, 14:05
Can someone please tell me something positive about Voyage of Discovery, many more negative comments and I will go and play in 4th Section with my lad's band!

mikelyons
05.08.2005, 14:21
Can someone please tell me something positive about Voyage of Discovery, many more negative comments and I will go and play in 4th Section with my lad's band!

It does grow on you after a bit. There is some lovely music in it, but it needs time to take in what all the different effects are there for. Anyone who thinks that the opening is hard for cornets want's to try being a bass player in the next section. I've re-written that part three different ways and still can't get the patterns into my head or the notes under my fingers :rolleyes: . I think I'll take up gardening.

mikelyons
05.08.2005, 14:22
Give it a chance.....blimey, talk about sweeping statement!
Moi?





I'm wounded ;) :p

Laserbeam bass
05.08.2005, 15:05
It does grow on you after a bit. There is some lovely music in it, but it needs time to take in what all the different effects are there for. Anyone who thinks that the opening is hard for cornets want's to try being a bass player in the next section. I've re-written that part three different ways and still can't get the patterns into my head or the notes under my fingers :rolleyes: . I think I'll take up gardening.

You don't mean that I will have to take the bass home and practice for the first time since January :oops:

Praise him, for my prayers have been answered.

B'aht a band
05.08.2005, 19:47
A hard bass part in a 1st section test piece? My God, Goff Richards has gone crazy!! Should make for a fantastic battle, especially in Yorkshire at least...

chrisvine01
05.08.2005, 21:54
Can someone please tell me something positive about Voyage of Discovery, many more negative comments and I will go and play in 4th Section with my lad's band!
No one seems to have mentioned much about the 4th section piece - is that a good or bad sign?!

madandcrazytromboneguy
05.08.2005, 22:12
1 thing ive noticed is that all 5 pieces have been done by well known composers/arrangers this time, this could mean that all the pieces could be good pieces, you'd all hope so any wouldnt you?

Neil Glynn
06.08.2005, 00:44
We gave Entertainments a run out at band tonight, finally a test piece to get your teeth into, there's going to be a lot of hard work involved in getting this one up to scratch. Should sort the wheat from the chaff in the Yorkshire 3rd section though.

ian perks
06.08.2005, 13:33
Having read about 95% of the comments about the Areas and the tests.
Im looking forward to the 1st section piece we have had 3 CRACKING TESTS so far over the last 3 years and from what i can pick out this should be yet another good one for us:clap:
Well low and behold 3rd section bands should be over the moon with Entertainments to play a good choice for them once again but we find a few moaning and groaning already
Here is a question for ALL 3rd section Bands:

You have entered a OWN CHOICE CONTEST OPEN SECTION and a good number of 3rd section bands try and pick a well known piece, they think they can play and think they have played well, but some of them think they have played good enough to get in prizes BUT find themselves been told by the Adjudicator pick a piece within the bands limit but some take no notice and carry on picking pieces to big for themselves.
Now my point is:
You have got something to play YET again so just get on with it and do the best you can with the piece it will test you and if you want to go into the 2nd section then these are the sort of pieces you need to play in order to improve.
As i have said im looking forward to the 1st section piece its no good picking something like Little Suite For Brass NUMBER 1 if you are going to go into the Championship Section.
Come on show some fight.
Also a BIG WELL DONE to the Scots for letting the BIG SECRET out of the bag for the Test Pieces, i give them a pat on the back and the big :tup to them for doing it.:clap:
I just hope no one will get a smack on the wrists for it, as far as i can see they have done nothing wrong !!!:biggrin: :woo

flower girl
06.08.2005, 14:18
is entertainments the one with the really hard front row cornet part????

flower girl
06.08.2005, 14:22
ive just heard 40 seconds worth of VoD and it doesnt have the cheezy goff section in that so at least thats 40 seconds worth of no cheezy playing, feel sorry for the poor guys havin all them semi-q's, could they even be d.s.q's?, hope trombones dont have em, lol, i wanna be able to play my solo trombone part, not struggle with it ;) :P

Clive, u'd struggle with it even if it was crotchets :p

eckyboy
06.08.2005, 16:42
I think a contest as major as this should have new pieces every time - gives a level playing field for everyone and some variety in the listening. Would encourage new composers too.

Well said, I've always thought this as a testpiece could be chosen that happens to be a bands favourite own choice as in this year with one written for Dyke. I suppose finances play a big part with commisioning 5 new testpieces every year for a contest but at least it would give some of the newer composers a chance to get their work published and performed. I'm not moaning but it does seem strange, I'm glad I dont play in the Yorkshire area.

Well done JJM for getting the pieces announced early.

Ruthless
06.08.2005, 17:20
What are the cornet parts to "journey" like? (especially rep as this is what i'll be playing). I am looking forward to going up into the Championship section again (with Hatfield this time) but am very scared of going back to the Yorkshire region especially on what sounds like it will be a very hard piece. I have been "Up North" too long!!

Moy
06.08.2005, 23:16
Well well well.
My 1st posting since getting broadband back.
Very difficult trying to keep up with ALL the postings when on a SLOW dial up connection.

Having read all the comments here I now know that I haven't missed too much - just all the usual comments leading up to a contest.

mmmmmmm:clap:

Vickitorious
07.08.2005, 16:23
Hellooooo all! I'm back from NYBB listening to the discovery thing now..

Is the slow solo bit in it.. Flugel or Horn??? :confused:

Vickitorious
07.08.2005, 16:26
Give it a chance.....blimey, talk about sweeping statement!

We played it at NYBB last year, but according to some peopel at NYB it's been re-arranged into a test piece.

But as it was when we played it, it took a while to get into it but once it all fitted together right it sounded great and was one of my favourite pieces on the course! It had a really nice flugel solo.. and an ACE cornet fanfare type thing at the end! Not much for horns though! :(

You'll enjoy it once you get going! :)

mikelyons
07.08.2005, 20:55
Hellooooo all! I'm back from NYBB listening to the discovery thing now..

Is the slow solo bit in it.. Flugel or Horn??? :confused:

Horn. :)

madandcrazytromboneguy
11.08.2005, 00:19
is entertainments the one with the really hard front row cornet part????


yes lisa, will you be goin onto 5th cornet?, ooops, there isnt 1 is there, o well, u'll have 2 struggle with 3rd cornet insted ;) (JOKE in retaliation!)

supersop_1
11.08.2005, 00:58
Entertainments will be a good test and its not as unrealistic as tam o shanters was last year.At least bands should be able to put a good performance of it.Dont get me wrong test pieces should be just that"a test" but tam o shanters went a bit far i think

AndyCat
24.08.2005, 16:10
Just heard Journey to the Centre of the Earth. Listened to it a few times, and it'll be a stern test indeed. Especially for Sop players! Good, accessible music in my opinion tho.

Dave Payn
24.08.2005, 16:56
Entertainments too difficult for the majority of the third section? Perhaps but if, as has been said many times before over the years, if you end up with a piece that the majority of a section are comfortable with, then it would be quite tricky to pick the winning bands without yet more cries of 'bl**dy adjudicators must be deaf' etc. etc. When I conducted Crystal Palace Band, we took Entertainments (as a third section band, about to go up to second) to an own choice contest. Geoff Whitham was the adjudicator so he'd have not held back about the tricky euph solo in the first movement. We came second. Yes, we were about to be promoted but, the best third section bands should do fine with it, and hopefully this will leave the adjudicators with a hopefully easier task of picking the right bands to go through to the finals.

As GJG implied, bands might wish to use it (or other area pieces) before the areas in a concert. Why not subject it to a paying audience? It might not go all to plan but you'll have the experience of a 'one off' performance. It's (Entertainments, that is) a fine concert work IMHO. Perhaps if a few more lower section bands narrowed the margins between their concert programmes and contest pieces and started including a few 'test piece' type works in their concert programmes instead of yet more renditions of the poxy Floral Dance and the like, their contest performances might improve.

Too many bands I've been involved with are guilty of not spending more time challenging themselves with their concert programmes, getting out largely the same stuff year in year out, which might take minimum rehearsal (or 'not enough rehearsal' as it sometimes transpires) and then they find it a struggle come the next areas, to get back to the standards they may have achieved in the previous year's contest season. More challenging concert progs, including 'original works' which can be appreciated as pieces of music as opposed to what sort of 'test' it offers, mixing (not dismissing) with more traditional concert items, might lead to those players less willing to commit themselves during the concert season (there are some!) to think otherwise, keeping the interest going etc. I believe many more lower section bands would improve if they stopped this approach of trying to raise their standards for the contest season, only to let it go during the summer/concert season. Musical improvement is a constant approach, not a quick fix.

Charmed
25.08.2005, 08:23
Just heard Journey to the Centre of the Earth. Listened to it a few times, and it'll be a stern test indeed. Especially for Sop players! Good, accessible music in my opinion tho.

Where did you hear it? My husband has searched the internet for a recording of it and so far has come up with zilch!

AndyCat
25.08.2005, 09:06
Where did you hear it? My husband has searched the internet for a recording of it and so far has come up with zilch!

I heard a Dyke players personal copy. I'm not sure that's the one that'll be on the CD tho, I think that will be a studio recording. All heresay tho I'm afraid!

imthemaddude
25.08.2005, 09:38
The Euro CD and DVD will be out soon.

Carina Halliwell
25.08.2005, 14:04
Why don't you all stop obsessing over the choice of test piece and just get on with it. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how many times you complain about the chosen test piece for your section it ain't gonna change. So what if you think its too easy/hard or boring or whatever theres always next years contest and theres chance at own choice contests to play what you like.

The idea of a set test piece is give bands a level playing field to compete on, if the test piece is too hard for some bands it simply shows the adjuduactor that they're simply not good enough for the section they are competeing in. In the areas its especially important that the adjudicators know which bands are good enough to compete against the rest of the country and which bands are good enough for promotion - if the test piece is too easy then the adjucator could be mislead - obviously sometimes the adjudicators get it wrong etc but thats a different matter.

Also, why do some of you think that a new test piece should be commisioned every year for set test piece contests? there are plenty of fantastic pieces of music out there that a lot of people enjoy, and a lot of people have probably never played because it has not been "fashionable" to do so!! for example, when was the last time you heard Entertainments played at a contest - I don't think I've ever heard it, although I have played the second movement on a concert when helping out another band. I'm not saying that new music should'nt be used, just that you should'nt forget the classics.

So give it up complaining your only wasting your own time. In fact I reckon if you all spent the same amount of time practicing as you do writing messages on here you would all be fantastic players and would'nt be worrying that your test pieces are too difficult for you!

dyl
25.08.2005, 14:07
In fact I reckon if you all spent the same amount of time practicing as you do writing messages on here you would all be fantastic players and would'nt be worrying that your test pieces are too difficult for you!

I think that's totally uncalled-for. Everyone's entitled to air their opinions here on tMP - regardless of playing ability.

If someone doesn't like/agree with a choice of piece, they are more than welcome to say so. It would be such a boring world if everyone agreed with everyone else's decisions, don't you think so?

floral_dance
25.08.2005, 15:09
bit of a jump to assume that people write on TMP rather than practice, maybe they log on after practice or for a breather. Don't be so judgemental, everyone knows banders like to complain but that we all get down to serious work regarding contests. Would be a boring world if we just sat back and said nothing. This is a friendly forum where people can say what they think and move on. Everyone knows once the choice of tests has been made it can't be changed, does not really need to be pointed out.

Dave Payn
26.08.2005, 11:08
. In fact I reckon if you all spent the same amount of time practicing as you do writing messages on here you would all be fantastic players and would'nt be worrying that your test pieces are too difficult for you!

So why are you replying on here when you could be practicing instead?

sywity
26.08.2005, 14:11
Just want to say that we got out Entertainments last night at band practice and what a fantastic piece!!!!!!! Im really looking forward to the regionals next year especially with such a diverse piece that will 'test' the third section!!!! BRAVO to the selectors!!!!:clap:





Simon Scholes
Solo Horn
Pilling Jubilee Silver Band

bruceg
26.08.2005, 16:43
Haven't heard the first section piece yet but I'm looking forward to it. I never did understand all the complaints about last year's 2nd section piece - I loved playing it and we got second at the Scottish - woo hoo!

Roll on next March...

mikelyons
26.08.2005, 22:00
Well, well, well, Caz.

Not like you to open your mouth, plant both feet firmly in it and then jump in after them is it now? ;)

Other people, don't be mean. While she's sometimes a bit (how can I say this tactfully? 'direct', might be a good choice... OK gobby might be better :)) Carina is also entitled to her opinion and to express it as strongly as certain others seem to do from time to time. And up to a point she has one, if you see what I mean - we do tend to spend a fair amount of time in the run up to a contest ' whingeing, whining and pee-ing' about some aspect or other of the music - it's all part of our 'artistic temperaments' and I do include myself in that too. Carina's fault, if she can be said to have one, is that she went to the Lyons school of tact and diplomacy. ;)

dyl
26.08.2005, 22:38
And after the case for the defence, we'll swiftly return to topic.

Dave Payn
27.08.2005, 20:37
Carina is also entitled to her opinion and to express it as strongly as certain others seem to do from time to time.

And nowhere will you find me saying or implying otherwise. ;) Perfectly valid question considering the subject matter.

I'm not always renowned for my tact either.... :)

All I hope is regarding Entertainments is that the publishers or contest organisers don't insist on buying a 'new' set of parts and score if bands already have it in their libraries, as given previous 'reincarnations', the new set will have just as many mistakes as the old, but in different places.

What I can tell you is that in the final movement of Entertainments, there is a dotted rhythm that is the wrong way round in the original score. Can't remember what bar (going off the top of my head) but on the third beat of a 4/4 bar, it should be a semi middle G (Bb pitch) followed by a dotted quaver low C tied to another low C. In the score, the dotted quaver and semi are the wrong way round. So there. ;)

mikelyons
27.08.2005, 21:58
Dave, I'm sorry, but I think you are being unreasonable.

I really do not see how you can expect any self-respecting publisher to update his or her or their copy of the score and/or parts, which have been in print for the last umpty-tump years, which have been complained about at regular intervals by bands, contest organisers and the composer. It's just too much to expect.

I think it's also very narrow-minded of bandspeople in general to expect established publishing houses to convert all their messily and untidily hand-written scores into an electronic format, or even to update the ones they already have in such a format for the benfit of their own business as well as for the music community in general. (Believe me, many, if not most, orchestral scores are like this too).

I think the air in Arran must be too rarefied for you ;)

Dave Payn
28.08.2005, 13:35
Dave, I'm sorry, but I think you are being unreasonable.

I really do not see how you can expect any self-respecting publisher to update his or her or their copy of the score and/or parts, which have been in print for the last umpty-tump years, which have been complained about at regular intervals by bands, contest organisers and the composer. It's just too much to expect.

I think it's also very narrow-minded of bandspeople in general to expect established publishing houses to convert all their messily and untidily hand-written scores into an electronic format, or even to update the ones they already have in such a format for the benfit of their own business as well as for the music community in general. (Believe me, many, if not most, orchestral scores are like this too).

I think the air in Arran must be too rarefied for you ;)

On the contrary Mike, I think you need to sample this rarefied air. (It'd be nice to meet you, for a start! ;)) Read my previous post, and then tell me where I refer to expecting any publisher to update their scores/parts. My observation was that I hoped that the contest organisers wouldn't insist that bands that already have the music, buy a new revised set. It's the publishers that for whatever reason CHOOSE to issue/revise/update (or are instructed as such by the contest organisers) when one of their pieces is chosen for a major contest. Yes. I pointed out a 'wrong'un' in the last movement (incidentally, it's 8 bars before the DC) but I didn't suggest that publishers should rush out and update the original score. Indeed, I said that any new set would have the same number of mistakes but in different places!

mikelyons
28.08.2005, 18:01
But maybe they should - and give all bands who bought a copy previously (and have proof in the form of an invoice) a certified correct copy.

Sorry, was I dozing? I was having such a lovely dream...

The main problem I'd have is with the midges. Scotland is reputed to be infested with the blighters and I'm a mosquito's idea of a gourmet feast. :eek:

I have bites from my trip to France on every limb and some were huge. There's one on my leg that's as big as a fried egg. This despite a thick layer of sun factor 60 and insect repellent!

(I have the DVD of Starship Troopers and watched it last night as a bit of catharsis :))

Anyway, back OT.

I have no problem with bands being tested. That is the point and it is how the good quality bands are separated from the mediocre in each section. I'm just not entirely convinced that the methodolgy is right or that the adjudicators are far enough out of the old boy's club syndrome to be able to do the best job.

HBB
01.09.2005, 21:44
What do we think?

I think it's really good... possibly not as good as the likes of Essence of Time, and LOADS of percussion?

(p.s. Love the cough in the Euros CD!)

Straightmute
02.09.2005, 09:32
What do we think? (of Journey to the Centre of the Earth)


(p.s. Love the cough in the Euros CD!)

I wonder if it will be provided on a CD for bands to use at the contest...

D

madandcrazytromboneguy
21.09.2005, 03:05
ive already asked this and no1 has answered it yet!

whats the solo trombone part like in v.o.d.?

WhatSharp?
21.09.2005, 12:47
Just heard Images ......


oh dear :(

Dave Euph
21.09.2005, 13:59
I've been listening to 'Journey ...' quite a lot since I got my euro CD, and I love it! Perhaps not Peter Graham's best work (though it's always going to be hard to follow Montage IMO!) but still wonderfully atmospheric - to a point where's it's even spooky!

I haven't seen my part yet, but I can imagine the fast (albeit brief) sections will be tricky, but where bands are going to be most harshly judged for certain is the eight of so minutes of solid, quiet stuff. Also, that sop (I think) solo early on sounds very much like a similar one from Tristan ... heh!

HBB
21.09.2005, 14:07
(of Journey to the Centre of the Earth)

I wonder if it will be provided on a CD for bands to use at the contest...

D
I hope so!

Track 1 - Cough
Track 2 - Whispering

waynefiler
21.09.2005, 15:14
Yet again, nothing much seems to have been said about the 4th section test piece.

Anyone out in TMPland got any views on it?

Difficulties?
Big solos?
Other Stuff?


We Need To Know !

mikelyons
21.09.2005, 18:39
ive already asked this and no1 has answered it yet!
whats the solo trombone part like in v.o.d.?

It's a buqqer!.

Very exposed and important. Only the bass trom part is possibly worse and more exposed. It's a bit of a bottle tester, I think. (Not all the way through, I hasten to add, but in several sections)

At least you don't have those blooming awful semis at the beginning. I think Corys cheated - their basses are playing nothing like the part we've got! :eek:

Does anyone know whether that d/g in the basses after s is correct? It sounds awful. Corys play it on the CD and it still sounds awful!

matti_raz
21.09.2005, 20:56
Why can I ask do you think second section bands, most of whom can only last bout ten mins on max power and nerves, have been given a piece 17 minutes in duration and the top section is only 11?!?!?!?!?!

AndyCat
21.09.2005, 21:13
Why can I ask do you think second section bands, most of whom can only last bout ten mins on max power and nerves, have been given a piece 17 minutes in duration and the top section is only 11?!?!?!?!?!

My recording seems to be 16 minutes?

matti_raz
21.09.2005, 21:18
What Journey or Images? lol

AndyCat
21.09.2005, 21:42
Sorry, Journey!

matti_raz
21.09.2005, 21:51
I must be imaging things then, sorry! I only saw the CD track list on saturday at the open and i must have got confused but Images is definately 17 as well!!!! Which to me seems excessive for second section!!

Phil
21.09.2005, 22:10
recently all ive listened to is entertainments and i cant wait to play it personally sounds like theres a really interesting mix... this mgiht be the first test piece other than four noble truths i seriously enjoy

McEuphie
22.09.2005, 17:07
Hi fellow forth sectioners!!

Just listened to Anglian Dances and looking forward to playing it (must get a copy of the score).

Interesting points:

Movement 1 - cornet fanfares

Movement 2 - lilting waltzy tune

Movement 3 - could be a scary dim to finish for euphs

Movement 4 - cornet and euph duet with little sop extra

Movement 5 - good rhythm (6/8) with trom trumpeting - clear tongue required for semis and interesting woodblock on 2nd quaver when horns have tune!

JR
22.09.2005, 22:48
Just want to say that we got out Entertainments last night at band practice and what a fantastic piece!!!!!!! Im really looking forward to the regionals next year especially with such a diverse piece that will 'test' the third section!!!! BRAVO to the selectors!!!!:clap:





Simon Scholes
Solo Horn
Pilling Jubilee Silver Band

Glad you like it - so do I - I just think it's asking an awful lot of 3rd Section Euph/Cornet and sop players at area level. It would in my opinion be a really stretching ask for the finals at this level - don't forget, last year's finals piece for 3rd section was "Diamond Heritage" by Darrol Barry - there's just no comparison in difficulty

jr

PeterBale
23.09.2005, 07:26
Having listened to "Images" on the Regionals cd over the past day or so - and granted without having seen the copy - I don't envy the sop players (seems to be a lot of quite exposed stuff).

WhatSharp?
23.09.2005, 08:24
Having listened to "Images" on the Regionals cd over the past day or so - and granted without having seen the copy - I don't envy the sop players (seems to be a lot of quite exposed stuff).

Don't envy anyone. It's worse than Variations. IMHO I think the selection panel have overdone it this time, I don't think any of them had ever heard this piece.

jonford
23.09.2005, 09:47
IMHO I think the selection panel have overdone it this time, I don't think any of them had ever heard this piece.

Isn't Richard Evans on the selection panel though? He commisioned the piece with Leyland so you would think he at least would of heard it. I agree it's probably a tough test, but I think there is a challenge for every section!

WhatSharp?
23.09.2005, 11:11
Isn't Richard Evans on the selection panel though? He commisioned the piece with Leyland so you would think he at least would of heard it. I agree it's probably a tough test, but I think there is a challenge for every section!

I wouldn't know about that. Does any know who is actually on the selection panel? Are there any possible "fingers in pies" which might influence their choice of music? (I'm not try to start any consipracy theories but the last couple of years have seen some "odd" choices).

Whilst I applaud their attempts at selecting "challenging" music for the second section I really feel that they need to be careful. There does need to be a balance between "challenging" and "achievable" each year they seem to try and push it that bit further. What will we get next year? Concerto Grosso? Paganinni? after all there are many bands from 2nd section downwards who could "get through it"?

C'mon Music Panelists lets have some reality checks here! :D

BTW, is it just me or do they seem to be picking on the Sop players?, seems to be a good market for ex-champ section sop players in the second section these days......

stevetrom
23.09.2005, 11:24
[QUOTE=WhatSharp?]....each year they seem to try and push it that bit further.QUOTE]

Is'nt that called progress?

[QUOTE=WhatSharp?] do they seem to be picking on the Sop players?QUOTE]

Yes, and I fully agree with the idea:clap:

WhatSharp?
23.09.2005, 12:35
....each year they seem to try and push it that bit further.

Is'nt that called progress?


In a sense yes, however isn't that what the relative sections are for?, surely the section is a "Standard"....



[QUOTE=WhatSharp?] do they seem to be picking on the Sop players?QUOTE]

Yes, and I fully agree with the idea:clap:

<raspberry>

Neil Glynn
23.09.2005, 12:59
I just think it's asking an awful lot of 3rd Section Euph/Cornet and sop players at area level.

Not if they're putting in enough practice! Our band are 3rd section and therefore playing Entertainments as well for next year's area, we've already got the 2nd movement off, the 1st & 3rd are coming along nicely. As for the euph solo in the 1st movement, that just needs slow practice, building up the speed as you go along (best to aim to get it playable too fast, then it seems easier when you come back down to normal speed :biggrin: ). Personally I'm really enjoying working on this test piece, and I think the rest of the band are as well.

mikelyons
23.09.2005, 19:33
My thoughts on the 1st section test piece:


At first I didn't like it. It does some strange things that my ossified brain doesn't like because it has to be woken up to think about them ;)

Then it started to grow on me a bit - like moss or fungus. Some bits of it I started to like - more or less.

Now I like it quite a bit. Even the horrible really fast and stupid semiquavers in the bass line at the beginning and the completely inappropriate note I may have mentioned elsewhere ;) after letter S.

It is a good challenge for bands in this section. It requires a mixture of good technique, good tone and good tuning and needs a thinking band to it do well it wilol also require exquisiste self control on the contest stage.

These are all qualities that should belong to a first section band. Well chosen panel.

PowerRanger
23.09.2005, 22:53
My thoughts on the 1st section test piece:


At first I didn't like it. It does some strange things that my ossified brain doesn't like because it has to be woken up to think about them ;)

Then it started to grow on me a bit - like moss or fungus. Some bits of it I started to like - more or less.

Now I like it quite a bit. Even the horrible really fast and stupid semiquavers in the bass line at the beginning and the completely inappropriate note I may have mentioned elsewhere ;) after letter S.

It is a good challenge for bands in this section. It requires a mixture of good technique, good tone and good tuning and needs a thinking band to it do well it wilol also require exquisiste self control on the contest stage.

These are all qualities that should belong to a first section band. Well chosen panel.

It's a excellent piece Mike. I believe YBS performed it at every single concert in Australia, and apparently it's also on their programme at Stroud on Sat.

Have fun!

cornetcheese
23.09.2005, 23:42
Just had a listen to the regional pieces - they all seem like ambitious choices, maybe with the exception of the 4th section. I'm glad I'm not a principal cornet/euph with a 3rd section band!!!!

Redhorn
24.09.2005, 10:15
Want me to send you a copy of the solo ct part to VoD, Alan? ;)

Are ct section now are approaching their deadline set by our conductor to master that horrible horrible beginning! :clap:

Griffin
08.10.2005, 15:34
I haven't seen my part yet, but I can imagine the fast (albeit brief) sections will be tricky, but where bands are going to be most harshly judged for certain is the eight of so minutes of solid, quiet stuff. Also, that sop (I think) solo early on sounds very much like a similar one from Tristan ... heh!

I thought is was like Tristan too...

HELP!!:eek:

madandcrazytromboneguy
08.10.2005, 22:09
my bands had a go at it and i like it (V.o.D.)

2nd set of semiQ's for solo trom are top Dflat, otherwise im cool on it so far

hows you other potential solo troms for next years area for 1st section coping with it?

i have to say i expected the part to be a lot harder generally, it has its tough moments but its not constantly hard in my view

any1 agree or disagree?

Roger Thorne
08.10.2005, 22:18
Not if they're putting in enough practice! Our band are 3rd section and therefore playing Entertainments as well for next year's area, we've already got the 2nd movement off, the 1st & 3rd are coming along nicely. As for the euph solo in the 1st movement, that just needs slow practice, building up the speed as you go along (best to aim to get it playable too fast, then it seems easier when you come back down to normal speed :biggrin: ). Personally I'm really enjoying working on this test piece, and I think the rest of the band are as well.
But you've got 6 months to go yet!!!! Considering this post was written in September and you've already been working on the piece doesn't this prove that over 6 months rehearsal on one piece of music is telling you its too difficult! I realy feel sorry for you and your band if you're going to flog the area test piece to death for half a year!

;)

aqua76
09.10.2005, 21:11
We've got Harmony Music out already.... 7 months and counting ;-)

BassBlaster
09.10.2005, 21:41
I played Entertainments in the early 80`s at the Pontins Championships at Brean in the 3rd section, If we could play it then, it certainly is not to difficult.
In them days we had wooden valves!!!.

Band_Beefcake
09.10.2005, 21:41
Just like to say how much I'm lookin forward to working on the 4th section piece with my band, seems like a great choice. Certainly more tuneful than many 4th section set works in the past.
Some great music to play
GOOD CHOICE!
:clap:

the assisstant
09.10.2005, 23:38
We ran through Journey to the centre of the earth last week. Excellent piece, but we did'nt make it past Rotherham.:clap: :clap:

Neil Glynn
10.10.2005, 00:26
But you've got 6 months to go yet!!!! Considering this post was written in September and you've already been working on the piece doesn't this prove that over 6 months rehearsal on one piece of music is telling you its too difficult! I realy feel sorry for you and your band if you're going to flog the area test piece to death for half a year!

;)

I didn't say we were gonna flog the piece for the next 6 months, the reason we've got it out so early is that we've decided to use the 2nd movement in an entertainments contest that we're doing. It just makes sense that while we've got the parts out anyway, we might as well have the occasional look at the other movements and I for one am glad of the extra time to get the euph solo in the first movement up to scratch.

yorkyboy
13.10.2005, 13:17
Well I saw the score last night for journey to the cente of the earth. there will not be many championship section bands who play that!!

this should make it easy for the adjudicators. good luck to you all though!

BassBlaster
13.10.2005, 15:18
Unfortunatly, we have already started playing Entertainments, It won`t be entertaining by the time I get to Torquay.
I can see the conductors reasoning though.
At least I am back playing. And after the couple of years I have had, that is a blessing.
Looking foward to our concerts at the moment rather than any contests.

rutty
13.10.2005, 15:48
Just heard Images ......


oh dear :(

I was late to rehearsal on Monday (working the late shift) and our band were rehearsing that as I was coming through the carpark. I thought to myself, "what the heck is that racket?"

It seems an interesting choice for sure. I've been given some upper register exercises to help with the top D I have in there, plus a touch of extra stamina needed I think.

Let's hope they can fit all the bands in before midnight, unlike at the finals in Torquay where they also picked a long piece.

dikkezeug
13.10.2005, 18:55
I just feel sorry for the audience having to listen to that racket again and again throughout the day. At least the timing of the piece is known unlike Torquay as that was the first time Cherchebi was performed so even Goff Richards didn't know how long it took to play.

Why can't a test piece be picked that is a challenge for the band and also pleasant to listen to?? It might encourage more people to come and listen. On more then one contest I have seen the halls rather empty and I wonder why?

Wouter

the assisstant
13.10.2005, 22:04
Well I saw the score last night for journey to the cente of the earth. there will not be many championship section bands who play that!!

this should make it easy for the adjudicators. good luck to you all though!



Completely agree. As Ive said before a cracking piece, but a degree in mathamatics would'nt go amis..................

stevetrom
14.10.2005, 08:31
I just feel sorry for the audience having to listen to that racket again and again throughout the day.


what racket ?

piston
14.10.2005, 10:17
Entertainments is I believe one of those pieces I try to convince myself I won't like. Yet one cannot deny that it is clever writing, alot of comic areas, then seriousness in the space of a couple of bars. And I shall probably end up hooked.

The techincal aspects are more than a test for a third section band, but yeah off the back of Tam O'Shanter seems like they are trying to drag the third section up screaming and kicking, which may not make for the best contest as far as the audience are concered, but it sure as hell makes the band improve. And then they can enjoy far better conerts from their home band.

Please tell me thats the plan ... it isn't? :sup

BassBlaster
14.10.2005, 11:48
I have to agree that Entertainments is quite a difficult piece for the rest of the band, but if you are playing BBb bass their are a couple of tricky technical moments, but those are only single bars, few and far between.
It is a pleasant piece on the ear though. As long as the band does not overblow.

WhatSharp?
14.10.2005, 11:52
I was late to rehearsal on Monday (working the late shift) and our band were rehearsing that as I was coming through the carpark. I thought to myself, "what the heck is that racket?"

It seems an interesting choice for sure. I've been given some upper register exercises to help with the top D I have in there, plus a touch of extra stamina needed I think.

Let's hope they can fit all the bands in before midnight, unlike at the finals in Torquay where they also picked a long piece.

Well they've already "chopped" half the second movement out and "replaced" the percussion parts. Ironically enough they've chopped the bit where the Sop gets a rest!. If they have to start editing the piece around then surely that should have given the selection panel a bit of a clue as to it's suitability!. I have to admit listening to it, it does grow on you, however playing it is a different matter!

BigHorn
14.10.2005, 12:35
On Images...


I was late to rehearsal on Monday (working the late shift) and our band were rehearsing that as I was coming through the carpark. I thought to myself, "what the heck is that racket?"

It got even worse when you joined in ;)


I just feel sorry for the audience having to listen to that racket again and again throughout the day.


I feel sorry for the bands having to play it ! (and rehe**** it every week for months :( ) <-- hehe.. I think the profanity checker has deleted the word that describes it perfectly

brassneck
14.10.2005, 12:47
I think it's a shame that the panel didn't include the 'missing' Taproom Ballade movement to Entertainments. Apparently it was removed because it was considered unsuitable for a test-piece and that it took the total time of the work to over 16 minutes (at that time longer than contest use permitted).

rutty
14.10.2005, 13:12
I had the chance to listen to a decent band play Images last night (Scottish Co-op on a CD) and I really like it! I'm assuming we were just doing a good job of murdering it. I'm sure that our sop player Steve will be having kittens over it.

Journey is just fantastic! ****** hard but what a piece of music.

OK, so what's all this about chopping out half of the second movement? Don't make me read all ten pages of this thread!

WhatSharp?
14.10.2005, 13:28
It's in the notes which come with the score, basically there is a cut (not sure of the rehearsal markings, I know it's right after a high sop passage and straight into another high sop passage .. B@*&&^%$%$ :mad: ). Also the Vibraphone part has an alternative glock part.

Neil Glynn
16.10.2005, 01:07
Does anyone know if there is an errata sheet available for 'Entertainments'?

madandcrazytromboneguy
16.10.2005, 15:20
im certain that voyage of discovery will seperate the best from the worst in the 1st section, its flippin hard for all the sections of the band in places anyway, not sure what will get the best instrumentalist prize tho coz all the solo seats have a big part to play in this, best of luck to all 1st section bands, you'll need it, ALL OF YA!

yorkyboy
17.10.2005, 18:45
Does anyone know if there is an errata sheet available for 'Entertainments'?


Errata sheet???

They normally come out the third week in february!

Vickitorious
19.10.2005, 01:56
im certain that voyage of discovery will seperate the best from the worst in the 1st section, its flippin hard for all the sections of the band in places anyway, not sure what will get the best instrumentalist prize tho coz all the solo seats have a big part to play in this, best of luck to all 1st section bands, you'll need it, ALL OF YA!

Which is good! It's the first time the horns have actually had something to do in the area piece! We normally get um chucks.. or in comedy - chuck ums! But this one actually has a really good part! :biggrin: Can't wait to get started on it! :biggrin:

aqua76
19.10.2005, 19:33
It made quite a nice change having to do the chuck ums actually!!!

Had quick look at VOD, starts off ok then seems to get bit boring, sure it will grow on me, much like Comedy did.

Im personally far more worried about Harmony Music than the areas piece!!!

Jane
Dalmellington Band

Dave Euph
20.10.2005, 13:46
OK, saw "Journey..." on Tuesday night. Having previously seen how tricky the euph parts were for Voyage and Entertainments, I was slightly worried by what it was going to throw at me! I knew the piece pretty well anyway (I love the recording!).

So my opinion? HARD! Just darned tricky ... a time signature that can't make its mind up! :D Range though is pretty much OK throughout, until right at the end where it decides to throw in some top Es ... :(

But a fantastic piece without a doubt, and I'm really looking forward to getting to work on it come January.

Also, who's Yorkyboy? I think he's in Hade Edge but I can't for the life of me work out who it is?

Aaron
20.10.2005, 14:10
Dont know if this is relevant to the thread or not, but we've had 2 run-throughs of Images of the Milennium & i reckon its a stonker!!

But then as we have benn drawn no.1 at the area for the last 5 years running, we'll still be in the pub before 11am without a care in the world!!

http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif

aqua76
20.10.2005, 19:15
Had quick look at VOD, starts off ok then seems to get bit boring, sure it will grow on me, much like Comedy did.


Ok, its growing on me already now!!! Listening to it again, and having a wee play along with my part and there are quick a few cool wee bits.

Nice sustained chords at one bit, and although the ending aint quite cup of tea, there is plenty for us to work on!!

Roll on the Scottish!!

Jane

madandcrazytromboneguy
20.10.2005, 23:10
yo vick nice to see your happy with it :), horns have a solo dont they at some point, or top horn anyway, that should give you something to have a look at, if nowt else :D

Vickitorious
20.10.2005, 23:17
Dont know if this is relevant to the thread or not, but we've had 2 run-throughs of Images of the Milennium & i reckon its a stonker!!

But then as we have benn drawn no.1 at the area for the last 5 years running, we'll still be in the pub before 11am without a care in the world!!

http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif

:eek::eek: Really?? Thats just bad luck!! :eek: lol

Vickitorious
20.10.2005, 23:19
yo vick nice to see your happy with it :), horns have a solo dont they at some point, or top horn anyway, that should give you something to have a look at, if nowt else :D

Aye a nice lil cadenza in there and a lil cheesy trio afterwards!! Enough to keep me happy! + all the lil extra bits that are in it! I'm over the moon! :rolleyes::biggrin:

madandcrazytromboneguy
20.10.2005, 23:22
you think thats cheezy?, have you heard the cheezy mulberry bush solo's and trio for trombones?, geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez its the stilton of the voyage! lol

ScreamingSop
21.10.2005, 18:23
i cant believe the amount of people saying that their area pieces are too hard for the band.
surely that is the whole point of a TEST piece. to seperate the bands who can play it and the bands that cant.
The pieces are obviuolsy well within the reach of the sections they have been selected for.
If its indivisual parts that are worrying people cos they are too hard then that is what practise is their for surely?
Instead of moaning about how hard your test piece, why not use the attitude of "ok well we will have to play this in March/whenever so lets do the best job that we possibly can on it"

Vibrato
22.10.2005, 02:05
i cant believe the amount of people saying that their area pieces are too hard for the band.
surely that is the whole point of a TEST piece. to seperate the bands who can play it and the bands that cant.
The pieces are obviuolsy well within the reach of the sections they have been selected for.
If its indivisual parts that are worrying people cos they are too hard then that is what practise is their for surely?
Instead of moaning about how hard your test piece, why not use the attitude of "ok well we will have to play this in March/whenever so lets do the best job that we possibly can on it"


There's a lot more to it than you seem to appreciate. First off it's nonsense to say "the pieces are obviously well within the reach of the sections they have been selected for". If they were then no one would be complaining at all!

In the wake of Tam O'Shanter and Variations several bandsmen told me they were thinking of packing in playing. They'd had enough of hammering through the same stuff week in week out with little hope of actually mastering it. It's just demoralising.

If it were simply a case of practising individual parts, as you suggest, then anyone would be able to play almost anything. Why not set Eden for all sections and just tell people to do more practice? Banding is a hobby, in the lower sections at least, carried on by amateurs with day jobs and a life outside. As the pool of bandsmen diminishes we set unrealistic "tests" at our peril - there are far more interesting things to do in life.

Above all we are supposed to be musicians, and that means much more than simply playing fast technical passages or hitting high notes. Mastering the technicalities of a piece is only the first step in producing a musical performance. As several of the judges at Harrogate pointed out, we are losing the ability to play musically. That's what happens when the focus is constantly on pieces that are beyond bands technical abilities - they never get to give a true performance with poise and interpretation.

I would rather judge a contest on which band gave the best, most musical performance, rather than counting how many notes the cornet player missed, and wheather or not the sop got his top C's.

madandcrazytromboneguy
22.10.2005, 03:02
im not sure what the guys in the boxes are gonna look for on v.o.d., very strange piece

Charmed
22.10.2005, 09:07
Banding is a hobby, in the lower sections at least, carried on by amateurs with day jobs and a life outside.

Also for a lot in the Championship Section too!:eek:

GJG
22.10.2005, 10:07
There's a lot more to it than you seem to appreciate. First off it's nonsense to say "the pieces are obviously well within the reach of the sections they have been selected for". If they were then no one would be complaining at all!

In the wake of Tam O'Shanter and Variations several bandsmen told me they were thinking of packing in playing. They'd had enough of hammering through the same stuff week in week out with little hope of actually mastering it. It's just demoralising.

If it were simply a case of practising individual parts, as you suggest, then anyone would be able to play almost anything. Why not set Eden for all sections and just tell people to do more practice? Banding is a hobby, in the lower sections at least, carried on by amateurs with day jobs and a life outside. As the pool of bandsmen diminishes we set unrealistic "tests" at our peril - there are far more interesting things to do in life.

Above all we are supposed to be musicians, and that means much more than simply playing fast technical passages or hitting high notes. Mastering the technicalities of a piece is only the first step in producing a musical performance. As several of the judges at Harrogate pointed out, we are losing the ability to play musically. That's what happens when the focus is constantly on pieces that are beyond bands technical abilities - they never get to give a true performance with poise and interpretation.

I would rather judge a contest on which band gave the best, most musical performance, rather than counting how many notes the cornet player missed, and wheather or not the sop got his top C's.

Well said! :clap:

We find ourselves in the ridiculous position of having been relegated from 1st to 2nd section, then being faced with a 2nd section qualifiers test piece which is, in my assessment, more difficult than any of the pieces we had to play in the 1st section. Where's the logic in that?

brassneck
22.10.2005, 10:57
Well, we seem to have two distinctive camps here ... (1) those who want the test-pieces to be technically above the section's ability to help adjudicators separate the bands and (b) others who want the bands to be judged on musicality rather than overall peformance.

Shouldn't the contesting panel be assessing works that the mid-to-top bands in each section can technically master but can qualitatively be judged on musical virtues? The bands who do struggle technically and musically would then be obvious candidates for relegation as they are now in a minority as the rest at least can show they have the ability to at least make an overall positive contribution on the day? The bands who perform exceptionally well should impress any judge (musically and technically) to merit promotion.

WoodenFlugel
22.10.2005, 11:40
Shouldn't the contesting panel be assessing works that the mid-to-top bands in each section can technically master but can qualitatively be judged on musical virtues?

I think that is what they're trying to achieve. The trouble is, it is a tough ask - the standards vary from year-to-year and Area-to-Area so what might be considered perfect for one section in a particular Area wouldn't be ideal for another. Although that doesn't explain some of their recent choices (Entertainments for example...:eek: ).

brassneck
22.10.2005, 11:46
I think that is what they're trying to achieve. The trouble is, it is a tough ask - the standards vary from year-to-year and Area-to-Area so what might be considered perfect for one section in a particular Area wouldn't be ideal for another. Although that doesn't explain some of their recent choices (Entertainments for example...:eek: ).

... it's not that they have enough time to research the situation, eh? ;) (.... d'oh! once a year, and they could plan for the future as well!). Bands can and do plan ahead for the following year, targeting new challenging works in both concert and contest fields (... well, in my opinion, should).

choirmaster
22.10.2005, 11:49
I'm going to be starting rehearsing my band on Anglian Dances after Christmas. However, on listening to the C.D. recording of the piece (conducted by the composer) it is obvious that there are discrepancies between that and the recently published score. For example, if I remember correctly, there are no articulation markings at all in the 3rd movement when they obviously exist in the recording. Do I listen to the recording to find out where all these are and put them into our performance or do I just go by printed copy?

brassneck
22.10.2005, 11:51
I'm going to be starting rehearsing my band on Anglian Dances after Christmas. However, on listening to the C.D. recording of the piece (conducted by the composer) it is obvious that there are discrepancies between that and the recently published score. For example, if I remember correctly, there are no articulation markings at all in the 3rd movement when they obviously exist in the recording. Do I listen to the recording to find out where all these are and put them into our performance or do I just go by printed copy?

... printed copy until the errata sheets start appearing! It could be that things were changed (as they do) during rehearsal prior to recording!

post-edit - I do realise that Alan Fernie conducted the Co-op on the recording but the band probably used manuscript copies at that time. (Oh, I haven't got my copy of the CD yet, but I must ask if the accents used in performance of the Dances go against the natural rythmic nuances read in the score? e.g., syncopation)

WhatSharp?
22.10.2005, 19:39
Well said! :clap:

We find ourselves in the ridiculous position of having been relegated from 1st to 2nd section, then being faced with a 2nd section qualifiers test piece which is, in my assessment, more difficult than any of the pieces we had to play in the 1st section. Where's the logic in that?

I'm glad you said that Gareth, I was beginning to think it was just me!. I'm really baffled by this years selections, in particular the 2nd and 3rd section pieces.

Dirty Sanchez
22.10.2005, 20:47
The 1st section piece is dire, nice 1 Goff

Steve
23.10.2005, 14:29
Got a look at the 1st section pieces score yesterday and someone must be having a laugh. Nothing against the piece but there is no way most (if any) 1st section bands will get near it, its feindishly difficult.

In just over a year of 1st section banding Raunds will have played Comedy Overture, Pageantry and then this!!! A test is all well and good but lets be reasonable guys, this is TOO hard.

aqua76
23.10.2005, 14:43
It's not that bad surely??

I've listened to it a few times, and although its sounds like there are a few tricky sections, i wouldnt describe it as fiendishly difficult

Am sure when the bands start working on it they will relish the challenge.

Its a 'test' piece - having a slightly more difficult piece to challenge bands to work harder and get the rewards they deserve is the whole idea surely?

Jane

Steve
23.10.2005, 14:52
Seriously, I have played in many 1st section bands and cant think of one that has a band capable of giving a real performance of this piece. Challenge players by all means but do you think the audience and adjudicator wants to hear 20 bands trying to get through a piece or 15 playing it and 5 really performing it? I think the comments made at the nationals suggests the latter.

Laserbeam bass
23.10.2005, 15:31
Seriously, I have played in many 1st section bands and cant think of one that has a band capable of giving a real performance of this piece. Challenge players by all means but do you think the audience and adjudicator wants to hear 20 bands trying to get through a piece or 15 playing it and 5 really performing it? I think the comments made at the nationals suggests the latter.

Just wondering if that is your learned opinion of Midlands bands, or 1st section in general?

What in particular do you find to be the most challenging aspect of the piece?

Having had a blow through and listened to BAYV play it, I can only see two major hurdles in this piece, 1) opening 9 bars or so, with the semiquaver runs, and the pp unison section towards the end at figure R? Even these are certainly obtainable with the hard work of home practice, so to say that there may only be 5 good performances per area on the day, seems a bit harsh on the other 120 or so bands in the first section around the UK.

ScreamingSop
23.10.2005, 15:38
Got a look at the 1st section pieces score yesterday and someone must be having a laugh. Nothing against the piece but there is no way most (if any) 1st section bands will get near it, its feindishly difficult.

In just over a year of 1st section banding Raunds will have played Comedy Overture, Pageantry and then this!!! A test is all well and good but lets be reasonable guys, this is TOO hard.

Surely you are kidding???

we have payed this at uni and altho there are tricky bits (opening, and the euph crossover bits) it is no way near as hard as the past to years areas pieces.
And i think most bands (in our area, knowing them) will play it.

Steve
23.10.2005, 16:46
i am sure every band will play it but I doubt any band will have inner seats that can make music out of some of the passages in this peice. I agree with the challenge aspect but I always want to be going on stage knowing that the players can not only play the notes but make something of the piece. As do the audience I would imagine.

Comedy was not as hard as this, i agree it was hard musically but had no where near the technical challenge this has. Teaching players to shape something is easier than making their fingers move faster or making their range wider.

Cornishwomble
23.10.2005, 16:55
The 1st section piece is dire, nice 1 Goff

In your opinion :rolleyes:

aqua76
23.10.2005, 21:20
Anyone remember when Forest of Dean was 1st section testpiece?

Memory may fail me here but im sure horn part was horrendous, and having had a look a Voyage Of Discovery, definitely think its much easier than FoD.

I think the majority of bands will cope with this, as ive said before it's meant to be a testpiece. It's growing on me already, so looking forward to getting into it. Just wish the horns had bit more to do......

Jane

WoodenFlugel
23.10.2005, 21:32
Anyone remember when Forest of Dean was 1st section testpiece?

Memory may fail me here but im sure horn part was horrendous, and having had a look a Voyage Of Discovery, definitely think its much easier than FoD.

No you remember correctly. I know it well - it was my first ever contest on horn. Talk about a baptism of fire!

brassneck
23.10.2005, 21:47
erm., ... how many months is it until the Areas?

HBB
23.10.2005, 22:09
4!!! :d

euphnut
23.10.2005, 22:48
Very Interesting comments on the pieces!! My own feelings are that the ones who grumble most are the ones that who will rely on a core of the band to practice so they don't have to, not because they are unable musically, but because they have better things to do. A comment summed it in a previous comment, "There are far more interesting to do outside banding"... well if so they can't complain if with that attitude the banding movement has gone down hill!!

Anyway I think that VoD is fantastic, very listenable to, technical and enjoyable to rehearse (although have only played it twice in rehearsal). Listening to the CD I can say I am falling in love with it (obviously the euphs are better than me!!!!!!!!!!)

The second section test piece is very tedious to listen to!!!, and too long and would imagine the band will need a lot of lip strength.

Like Journey, again musical and listenable to.

As to whether each piece tests the relevant sections they have been set and there is nothing anyone can do about it but get on with it and not make excuses!!!!

Sorry, what a rant.:redface:

yorkyboy
23.10.2005, 23:24
i am sure every band will play it but I doubt any band will have inner seats that can make music out of some of the passages in this peice. I agree with the challenge aspect but I always want to be going on stage knowing that the players can not only play the notes but make something of the piece. As do the audience I would imagine.

Comedy was not as hard as this, i agree it was hard musically but had no where near the technical challenge this has. Teaching players to shape something is easier than making their fingers move faster or making their range wider.


Im not quite sure what you think the standard of 1st section bands is??
It appears that you are from the midlands and I have no personal knowledge of the standard in the 1st section but I can assure you that the standard here in Yorkshire is very high. The piece is a challenge but no more htan any other piece and to suggest that the 1st section bands do not have the quality on the inner seats to make music out of the piece is frankly absurd.
The 1st section is full of quality players who do not have the desire to put in the commitment that the championship requires and many bands have plenty of players with championship section experience. Dont be to quick to judge the standard of the 1st section.

Vibrato
24.10.2005, 12:58
the ones who grumble most are the ones that who will rely on a core of the band to practice so they don't have to
While I can't comment on your Area, this sweeping statement is certainly not true for the bandsmen I know.



A comment summed it in a previous comment, "There are far more interesting to do outside banding"... well if so they can't complain if with that attitude the banding movement has gone down hill!!
There's nothing like taking a quote out of context! If you read the rest of the text, my point is that amateur bandsmen, no matter how committed, will get fed up if they are asked to contest with music that is wildly beyond them.

Banding is like any other form of hobby - it's there to be enjoyed by those who participate in it. If people don't enjoy it they'll do something else - that's a fact!

We also need to remember that we are in the entertainments business, competing for audiences. Even the National Finals at the ROH were poorly attended this year... if hard core bandsmen don't turn out to listen, who will? Constant focus on technique to the detrement of musicality does little to win audiences or players alike. Perhaps you should look here for the reason "the banding movement has gone downhill."




The second section test piece is very tedious to listen to!!!, and too long and would imagine the band will need a lot of lip strength.
So presumably you don't mind people "grumbling" that it's a poor choice! The fact is that it was written to challenge and showcase one of the top bands in the country. I believe that if the 2nd section practice it from now to March no band will give a true performance of the piece. If they can they're in the wrong section!


This is our brass band movement, and if we want to attract new generations of musician and audience we need to think long and hard about what makes people turn out to rehearsals, and attend contests and concerts. I believe players want to rehearse and perform challenging but realistic music so they can express themselves as musicians, not be merely on the edge of "getting the notes". Audiences certainly don't want to sit through endless poor renditions of music that is clearly beyond those on stage.

euphnut
24.10.2005, 15:02
While I can't comment on your Area, this sweeping statement is certainly not true for the bandsmen I know.

There's nothing like taking a quote out of context! If you read the rest of the text, my point is that amateur bandsmen, no matter how committed, will get fed up if they are asked to contest with music that is wildly beyond them.

Banding is like any other form of hobby - it's there to be enjoyed by those who participate in it. If people don't enjoy it they'll do something else - that's a fact!

We also need to remember that we are in the entertainments business, competing for audiences. Even the National Finals at the ROH were poorly attended this year... if hard core bandsmen don't turn out to listen, who will? Constant focus on technique to the detrement of musicality does little to win audiences or players alike. Perhaps you should look here for the reason "the banding movement has gone downhill."



So presumably you don't mind people "grumbling" that it's a poor choice! The fact is that it was written to challenge and showcase one of the top bands in the country. I believe that if the 2nd section practice it from now to March no band will give a true performance of the piece. If they can they're in the wrong section!


This is our brass band movement, and if we want to attract new generations of musician and audience we need to think long and hard about what makes people turn out to rehearsals, and attend contests and concerts. I believe players want to rehearse and perform challenging but realistic music so they can express themselves as musicians, not be merely on the edge of "getting the notes". Audiences certainly don't want to sit through endless poor renditions of music that is clearly beyond those on stage.

I stand by my comments and did read all your text. I think that all the pieces chosen are challenging for a reason. As was mentioned by someone else the whole point of them being challenging is to sort out the bands who should be going up or down. I played Variations last year with my last band and it was very challenging but managed to overcome most of the hurdles with practice. It is not a case that if a band can give a true performance they're in the wrong section necessarily just that they have practiced (or had a good day!).

You also seem to be suggesting that anything technical is not musical! If you listen to VoD on the CD I would hope that you find it very musical to listen to. The second section I find tedious to listen to and this is my personal position.

I think the main reason we can't get younger people interested in banding is lack of funding for schools and more imortantly the total lack of press coverage. In the 80's there used to be "The Best of Brass" on BBC, what is there now. In Scotland we have Gealic MOD on TV and the such. Not many people have even heard a brass band!!

Hope you are not too bitter by this reply :p as you seem to have been with my last post.

ScreamingSop
24.10.2005, 23:28
Im not quite sure what you think the standard of 1st section bands is??
It appears that you are from the midlands and I have no personal knowledge of the standard in the 1st section but I can assure you that the standard here in Yorkshire is very high. The piece is a challenge but no more htan any other piece and to suggest that the 1st section bands do not have the quality on the inner seats to make music out of the piece is frankly absurd.
The 1st section is full of quality players who do not have the desire to put in the commitment that the championship requires and many bands have plenty of players with championship section experience. Dont be to quick to judge the standard of the 1st section.


WELL SAID!!!

Same here in North West, where throughout all the secitons at the area, the first section is usually the one that is the hardest to adjudicate cause all the bands are of a good standard.

Steve
25.10.2005, 00:13
I am well aware of the standard of 1st section bands across a lot of the country and completely agree that in general the north (yorkshire / n.east) is far stronger in ALL sections than us and the southern counties. Maybe if people did have an understanding of the quality throughout a section (not a region) then they could pass judgement on what is a suitable test for that section (not on here, i refer to selection panels and no, i dont think i could do better than anyone else).

I mean no disrespect to Midlands bands as there are some fine bands indeed, but having played with what was arguably the best 1st section band in the country (Kibworth) I know even they would struggle to have a player on every chair that could give a perfect performance of this peice.


My own feelings are that the ones who grumble most are the ones that who will rely on a core of the band to practice so they don't have to, not because they are unable musically, but because they have better things to do.

Or maybe they are the ones who believe they have sufficient knowledge to form an opinion and are in fact as dedicated as the rest.

Vibrato
25.10.2005, 02:31
Hope you are not too bitter by this reply :p as you seem to have been with my last post.
Thanks for your concern - I'm not bitter about your reply! However, I believe it's wrong to make sweeping generalisations such as your implication that bandsmen only grumble because they can't be bothered to practice. That's just inflamatory and adds nothing to the debate. As stated elsewhere, maybe the ones who grumble have a point, and are in fact as dedicated as the rest. The fact that you then you go on to grumble that a piece is tedious and over long is a little bemusing!

Also it is very bad form to take quotations out of context. I stated that "As the pool of bandsmen diminishes we set unrealistic "tests" at our peril - there are far more interesting things to do in life." That doesn't mean bandsmen are lazy or lack commitment, simply that in an ever more stressful world players need to look forward to their hobby. In a choice between staying home with the latest DVD or ploughing through the same tedious piece you can't play, people will, and are, voting with their feet. I speak as I find, and I find a lot of bandsmen becoming disillusioned with what they are asked to play. This is one of the reasons why non-contesting bands blossom while the rest of the movement contracts.



You also seem to be suggesting that anything technical is not musical!
You clearly have not understood my point at all. Ofcourse a technical piece can be musical, but only if the musician can play it. A musical performance demands poise, interpretation and style, none of which a player can provide if they are fighting to get the notes. You surely don't believe that simply getting through a piece constitutes a performance!



the whole point of them being challenging is to sort out the bands who should be going up or down
I really feel you are missing something as a musician if you think that highly challenging technical pieces are the only way to differentiate between bands. Go to a contest which involves hymn playing - three verses from the "red hymn book" easily sorts the good bands from the poor, yet it's hard to think of anything less technically challenging! Alternatively, go to the British Open, where almost every band masters the technical difficulties of the piece, yet the adjudicators choose a winner based on sound, style and interpretation.

Val
25.10.2005, 09:41
Well, I am so disappointed after hearing 'Images' a couple of times last night - next year's Regional will be my swansong as I am emigrating to France in April and I really hoped we would have a testpiece that would be enjoyable to rehearse and listen to. Unfortunately, I personally don't think Images is either. It is very long, the slow movement drags on and on and it seems to be very difficult for the second section.

After 30 very happy years in banding, I really hope that this piece will grow on me or my last few months may be very frustrating and unenjoyable - and, as stated earlier in this thread, surely we are all in this for ENJOYMENT!!! (Never mind, at least I will enjoy playing Laudate Dominum at Pontins - and the p*** up afterwards!!)

That said, if you're ever down the South of France and you hear someone performing on the street very poorly on sax, it is probably me - I'm hanging up my Flugel as there are no brass bands there and I really don't want to play with one of the abysmal wind bands I've heard!

neiltwist
25.10.2005, 12:37
well, this is certainly an interesting debate. I don't know about other people, but I like to have a moan, but will then sit down and put everything into a contest performance regardless of how I feel about it off-stage.

I think a point to make, or one that is already trying to be made rather, is that we call ourselves musicians, but have to play pieces that are so difficult that we can't put any music into them!

Personally I'd like to see something like epic symphony (or something more modern, maybe coventry variations) for the championship section, with open adjudication, and adjudicators being allowed to knock marks off if there is any cheating (ie bits being played on the wrong instrument where it isn't necessary). Most bands would play it, but the adjudicator would be able to get a sense of the overall performance, as opposed to if the notes get put in the right place, and if the adjudicator can hear them through his cloth.

Another idea would be to pick easier pieces, but only anounce them 2 weeks before the contest. That would sort out the talkers from the doers.

Just my opinion of course, what are other people's thoughts?

stevetrom
25.10.2005, 12:52
I agree with the idea of only releasing the test piece a few weeks before the contest, I don't agree with making the piece any easier though.

Realisticly how long should it take a band to prepare a piece?

If you can't play a piece after 2/3 weeks will you after 5/6 months?

WoodenFlugel
25.10.2005, 13:10
I agree with the idea of only releasing the test piece a few weeks before the contest, I don't agree with making the piece any easier though.

Realisticly how long should it take a band to prepare a piece?

If you can't play a piece after 2/3 weeks will you after 5/6 months?

Nah I can't see how this would move things forward - especially in the lower sections. The winning bands in this system would invariably be the ones who have a majority of players who either don't work or have jobs with very regular hours - a rare occourance these days. I know within the ranks of Wigston we have people who work shifts, engineers who have to travel to customers, people who are expected to go on 2-day training courses etc etc all meaning they can miss the odd rehearsal at any time - even before a contest. Its a shame but a fact of life. So to succeed with this system we would either have to tell people to drop all work commitments two weeks before the contest (hardly realistic) or get players in who are students or retired (hardly healthy for the movement).

As for the rehearsal time, I think the optimal time to rehearse a test piece at our standard is between 4 and 6 weeks. But I think you can still make inroads into a piece after that - sometimes it takes a while for players to "get it" and only once they do can a piece make significant progress.

AJSOP
25.10.2005, 13:26
In my opinion, the pieces chosen for the area contests 2006 are great for all sections. Yes, they may be a test for some bands but I personally think that bands who compete at the regionals each year should be tested to their limits (taking risks) The challenge of working on harder test pieces helps to increase a bands ability.

neiltwist
25.10.2005, 13:41
The winning bands in this system would invariably be the ones who have a majority of players who either don't work or have jobs with very regular hours - a rare occourance these days.

Good point!

My ideal rehearsal time would be about 2 weeks before the contest intensive rehearsals, and another 2 or 3 before that much more relaxed.

stevetrom
25.10.2005, 13:54
Good point!

My ideal rehearsal time would be about 2 weeks before the contest intensive rehearsals, and another 2 or 3 before that much more relaxed.

So if the area pieces were announced at the beginning of Jan that would be about right for contests in march.

WhatSharp?
25.10.2005, 13:57
2 Weeks! tell you what, try getting a 2nd section band to get Images up to contest standard in 8 hours (2x 2 hour rehearsals per week). 8 hours is about all you'll manage to get a FULL band together in London.

It's very easy to sit back and say "oh well I can do it so every one else must be able to" but realistically (and what a number of people are trying to point out on here) not everyone can play the selected pieces (barring champ and 4th) to ANY decent standard. Further I really don't think it does allow the adjudicators to select "clear winners". When 16 bands are all dire and can't play half the notes, what do you go on?, the one that made the best attempt at a musical (yet technically flawed) performance or the one that simply smashed their way through the notes but threw out any musicality.

neiltwist
25.10.2005, 14:47
2 Weeks! tell you what, try getting a 2nd section band to get Images up to contest standard in 8 hours (2x 2 hour rehearsals per week). 8 hours is about all you'll manage to get a FULL band together in London.

It's very easy to sit back and say "oh well I can do it so every one else must be able to" but realistically (and what a number of people are trying to point out on here) not everyone can play the selected pieces (barring champ and 4th) to ANY decent standard. Further I really don't think it does allow the adjudicators to select "clear winners". When 16 bands are all dire and can't play half the notes, what do you go on?, the one that made the best attempt at a musical (yet technically flawed) performance or the one that simply smashed their way through the notes but threw out any musicality.


I also said easier pieces could be used, but perhaps should have been clearer in which bits of my post that applied to.

The fact of it is that each different area has different abilities, and within those areas, the boundaries of each section are different. So, how about using different test-pieces for different areas? Each area committee could set the test-pieces of another (so as to avoid calls of foulplay), knowing their strengths and weaknesses. Again, thoughts please...

stevetrom
25.10.2005, 15:00
[QUOTE=neiltwist] So, how about using different test-pieces for different areas? Each area committee could set the test-pieces of another QUOTE]


I can't see that working, I think the Areas must have the same piece surely thats the point?

Maybe some bands on the (geographical) edge of an area could move to another to try and equalize the spread of bands.

NAS
25.10.2005, 15:01
So if the area pieces were announced at the beginning of Jan that would be about right for contests in march.

It would for some bands I think. I know that last year for 'Tam' we had a brief look in Jan then concentrated on our test piece for Preston Guild Hall contest in Feb. From Feb to March we rehearsed the area piece and put in a good, solid
performance which drew praise from the likes of Russell Gray:-D. Its obviously different for each band. Some bands can rehearse on that time scale, some cant.

See you at the weekend Mr Anker!

WhatSharp?
25.10.2005, 15:11
I also said easier pieces could be used, but perhaps should have been clearer in which bits of my post that applied to.

Sorry, should be more careful with my reading ;) yes easier pieces would make a huge difference



The fact of it is that each different area has different abilities, and within those areas, the boundaries of each section are different. So, how about using different test-pieces for different areas? Each area committee could set the test-pieces of another (so as to avoid calls of foulplay), knowing their strengths and weaknesses. Again, thoughts please...

This though would mean bands getting through to the finals on different criteria. I agree there is a difference between the areas (though given the last few years lower section results I don't think its as obvious as some might think), but I;m not sure a different piece for each area is the solution.

neiltwist
25.10.2005, 15:30
...This though would mean bands getting through to the finals on different criteria...

This is the case at the moment with different adjudicators, or more than one for some/all sections in different areas.

stevetrom
25.10.2005, 15:49
See you at the weekend Mr Anker!

I will be somewhere near the bar! (once we've played of course)

ScreamingSop
25.10.2005, 15:54
2 Weeks! tell you what, try getting a 2nd section band to get Images up to contest standard in 8 hours (2x 2 hour rehearsals per week). 8 hours is about all you'll manage to get a FULL band together in London.

It's very easy to sit back and say "oh well I can do it so every one else must be able to" but realistically (and what a number of people are trying to point out on here) not everyone can play the selected pieces (barring champ and 4th) to ANY decent standard. Further I really don't think it does allow the adjudicators to select "clear winners". When 16 bands are all dire and can't play half the notes, what do you go on?, the one that made the best attempt at a musical (yet technically flawed) performance or the one that simply smashed their way through the notes but threw out any musicality.


I think suggesting that all thebands will be dire is somewhat of a sweeping statement, becuase i think that a lot of the bands will actually see images as a challenge and embrace it and make a good job of it.
Knowing the standard of the second section at NW areas, i know that for definate that nealry all the bands will make a good performance of it.

neiltwist
25.10.2005, 15:57
I think suggesting that all thebands will be dire is somewhat of a sweeping statement, becuase i think that a lot of the bands will actually see images as a challenge and embrace it and make a good job of it.
Knowing the standard of the second section at NW areas, i know that for definate that nealry all the bands will make a good performance of it.

I believe this was in reference to my time limit of two weeks!

WhatSharp?
25.10.2005, 17:16
I think suggesting that all thebands will be dire is somewhat of a sweeping statement, becuase i think that a lot of the bands will actually see images as a challenge and embrace it and make a good job of it.
Knowing the standard of the second section at NW areas, i know that for definate that nealry all the bands will make a good performance of it.

Perhaps dire was a bit strong. I don't doubt that bands up North are more capable than bands here in London (I can only speak for London since that is where I play), I think the difference is what Neil was talking about, certainly from last years experience of Variations there were bands that just about pulled it off but nearly all struggled (or appeared to), and in my opinion Images is harder than Variations, here lies an issue, should the selectors choose a piece which only one or two areas will be able to manage or go for a piece where all the bands have a chance at getting it technically right and allow for some musicality.

euphgothgirl
27.10.2005, 18:16
How about

Championship Section
Journey to the Centre of the Earth - Peter Graham

1st Section
Voyage of Discovery - Goff Richards

2nd Section
Images of the Millennium - Howard Snell

3rd Section
Entertainments - Gilbert Vinter

4th Section
Anglian Dances - Alan Fernie

At least that's what it says on the Scottish Brass Band Association website (http://www.sbba.org.uk/)


Its right i've got the disc with all of them on! They are out early coz they needed to be printed early but Ive heard them all and they are really good testpieces with some fabulous music in them.

euphgothgirl
27.10.2005, 18:23
2 Weeks! tell you what, try getting a 2nd section band to get Images up to contest standard in 8 hours (2x 2 hour rehearsals per week). 8 hours is about all you'll manage to get a FULL band together in London.

It's very easy to sit back and say "oh well I can do it so every one else must be able to" but realistically (and what a number of people are trying to point out on here) not everyone can play the selected pieces (barring champ and 4th) to ANY decent standard. Further I really don't think it does allow the adjudicators to select "clear winners". When 16 bands are all dire and can't play half the notes, what do you go on?, the one that made the best attempt at a musical (yet technically flawed) performance or the one that simply smashed their way through the notes but threw out any musicality.

I agree, people in the band have different abilities, like one of our EbBasses said i wont be at a practice and when we asked why he said something random and he goes well it doesnt matter because I an play my part i nearly flipped! I did shout then!! :mad:

And another thing about adjudicators! they always get up and wither say that the piece shouldnt have been given to this section or straight awway it's "that wasnt what the composer asked for!"!:confused:

If bands want a chance to win or be able to play, then the should be practicing before the two weeks at the rate their conductor wants them to do and as far as on the stand goes they can only play their best! we will sit there and still applaud even if it is a sucky performance! :clap:

yorkyboy
27.10.2005, 20:15
Im a little bit confused by the discussion on here. Do people want a TEST piece to be a challenge or something they perform in concerts knocking it up in a week or so??

Regading the 1st Section test piece. This is not a really difficult piece. In my humble opinion having done two rehersals on it most bands should make a good performance of it.

I cant comment on the 2nd,3rd & 4th section pieces as I have not heard them or seen them.

The only thing that I would say about the championship secition test piece having studied the score is that it is very difficult. I dont believe there will be many great performances of this and in fact I think a huge amount of bands will really find this a struggle. It should be a case where the cream will really rise to the top.


Feel free to disagree/agree but I truly believe that the reason behind the areas is to provide a real tough test to the bands in the country.

brassneck
27.10.2005, 23:12
Just curious here ... the areas are still some time away ... how many actually take their parts home to work on and master them? You would think that working on a bit at a time, any technical problems could be identified and (ideally) sorted out. Even with a short rehearsal programme (for the band) leading up to the contest, the end results would be more dramatically realised (in an ideal world, that is!).

WhatSharp?
28.10.2005, 09:07
Just curious here ... the areas are still some time away ... how many actually take their parts home to work on and master them? You would think that working on a bit at a time, any technical problems could be identified and (ideally) sorted out. Even with a short rehearsal programme (for the band) leading up to the contest, the end results would be more dramatically realised (in an ideal world, that is!).

Well I've started already. The biggest problem with Images (for the sop anyway) that I have is stamina and range (it was the same last year). Leaving it till 3-4 weeks before the contest is too late for me.

Charmed
28.10.2005, 12:40
The only thing that I would say about the championship secition test piece having studied the score is that it is very difficult. I dont believe there will be many great performances of this and in fact I think a huge amount of bands will really find this a struggle. It should be a case where the cream will really rise to the top.


Feel free to disagree/agree but I truly believe that the reason behind the areas is to provide a real tough test to the bands in the country.

Good point here, but what about the divide between the 1st Section and the Championship Section, particularly in Yorkshire, where a few good results in the 1st Section sees you promoted to the Championship, when actually you're probably no more than a good 1st section band. Test pieces like 'Journey' can actually have a detrimental (in my opionion) effect on such bands. Once a happy, contented band, you may find that the pressure of competing at this level and with test pieces such as this, can have a negative effect on some players. :frown:

euphgothgirl
28.10.2005, 13:17
Just curious here ... the areas are still some time away ... how many actually take their parts home to work on and master them? You would think that working on a bit at a time, any technical problems could be identified and (ideally) sorted out. Even with a short rehearsal programme (for the band) leading up to the contest, the end results would be more dramatically realised (in an ideal world, that is!).

i bought the testpiece at the nationals in september, photocopied it and gave it out at the practice the wednessday after. If the player can play there part then all the conductor need to do instead of trying to learn a player their part is as was said by Alan Fernie "putting the icing on the cake" the layers and foundations are there they just need to be perfected, the longer you practice a testpiece for, then it'll just become second nature when you go on the contest stand! If you pracice a testpiece in a short space of time before the contest.

euphgothgirl
28.10.2005, 13:18
Good point here, but what about the divide between the 1st Section and the Championship Section, particularly in Yorkshire, where a few good results in the 1st Section sees you promoted to the Championship, when actually you're probably no more than a good 1st section band. Test pieces like 'Journey' can actually have a detrimental (in my opionion) effect on such bands. Once a happy, contented band, you may find that the pressure of competing at this level and with test pieces such as this, can have a negative effect on some players. :frown:

dont worry my sister is only in the 2nd section and shes feeling the pressure!

yorkyboy
28.10.2005, 13:33
Good point here, but what about the divide between the 1st Section and the Championship Section, particularly in Yorkshire, where a few good results in the 1st Section sees you promoted to the Championship, when actually you're probably no more than a good 1st section band. Test pieces like 'Journey' can actually have a detrimental (in my opionion) effect on such bands. Once a happy, contented band, you may find that the pressure of competing at this level and with test pieces such as this, can have a negative effect on some players. :frown:


That is a entire subject on its own. The gulf between the 1st section and championship in Yorkshire is great. Having had a sneak look at your profile I see you are a member of a band who is getting promoted this year to the championship section. Do you feel that you are going to be in this position?

It was very much the same in 2004 when Chapeltown and Knottingley faced up to a very tough piece and got relegated straight away. Hade Edge and Yorkshire Coop had it a little easier last year though and Hade Edge managed to get another crack but I agree it can have a negative effect. I was a member of one of the bands mentioned, wont tell you which one though!, but it depends how you take the situation. I saw it as a huge challenge and one which I was going to enjoy regadless of the result.

GJG
28.10.2005, 13:58
i bought the testpiece at the nationals in september, photocopied it and gave it out at the practice the wednessday after.


... not something to which I would admit on this forum ...

(unless, of course, you had written permission from the publishers to do so.)

neiltwist
28.10.2005, 14:13
That is a entire subject on its own. The gulf between the 1st section and championship in Yorkshire is great. Having had a sneak look at your profile I see you are a member of a band who is getting promoted this year to the championship section. Do you feel that you are going to be in this position?

It was very much the same in 2003 when Chapeltown and Knottingley faced up to a very tough piece and got relegated straight away. Hade Edge and Yorkshire Coop had it a little easier last year though and Hade Edge managed to get another crack but I agree it can have a negative effect. I was a member of one of the bands mentioned, wont tell you which one though!, but it depends how you take the situation. I saw it as a huge challenge and one which I was going to enjoy regadless of the result.

This is quite an interesting little point of view, I always thought that the 'gap' between the championship section and first section in yorkshire is very small. The big gap is just above that line, which is why the yoyo effect keeps hapenning.

And the good results 'charmed' was talking about where winning the first section two years running. If this doesn't deserve a promotion, what does?!

flower girl
28.10.2005, 15:23
entertainments is a nice piece but its too hard. i'm just getting the hang of it.

yorkyboy
28.10.2005, 16:57
This is quite an interesting little point of view, I always thought that the 'gap' between the championship section and first section in yorkshire is very small. The big gap is just above that line, which is why the yoyo effect keeps hapenning.



I agree with you fully. The problem in Yorkshire is that there is 14/15?? bands in the championship section which is far too many. This leads to a section where there is in reality three sections within it.
The top five of YBS,B&R,Black Dyke,Grimethorpe and probably Sellars.
There is then another four/five who stop in the championship section such as Hepworth and Rothwell. These bands are capable of making dints into the top five but over a long period of time would struggle to break into the top group.
You then get the rest who, as you say yo-yo, between sections. It is a hell of a struggle for them to stop in the championship section for more than 3/4 years. Most last far less than this!
Although the bands that last more than two years have established themselves to a certain extent and when a promoted 1st section band trys to break into this group it is very difficult. Just look at the results for the last two years.
2004 - Chapeltown and Knottingley were promoted and finished last and second to last.
2005 - Yorkshire Coop and Hade Edge were promoted and finished last and second to last!

euphgothgirl
28.10.2005, 17:29
... not something to which I would admit on this forum ...

(unless, of course, you had written permission from the publishers to do so.)

I'm not a plagarist! go with the brackets thanks

madandcrazytromboneguy
28.10.2005, 18:43
The top five of YBS,B&R,Black Dyke,Grimethorpe and probably Sellars.
There is then another four/five who stop in the championship section such as Hepworth and Rothwell. These bands are capable of making dints into the top five but over a long period of time would struggle to break into the top group.



i'd say its a top 4, then hepworth and sellars just behind them, then rothwell and carlton main, then i think the rest are battling against relegation to be honest, no offense!

Charmed
28.10.2005, 18:55
That is a entire subject on its own. The gulf between the 1st section and championship in Yorkshire is great. Having had a sneak look at your profile I see you are a member of a band who is getting promoted this year to the championship section. Do you feel that you are going to be in this position?

It was very much the same in 2003 when Chapeltown and Knottingley faced up to a very tough piece and got relegated straight away. Hade Edge and Yorkshire Coop had it a little easier last year though and Hade Edge managed to get another crack but I agree it can have a negative effect. I was a member of one of the bands mentioned, wont tell you which one though!, but it depends how you take the situation. I saw it as a huge challenge and one which I was going to enjoy regadless of the result.

Possibly!

However, there is no getting away from the fact that the difference in 'some' championship test pieces, such as 'Journey to the Centre of the Earth' compared to the usual 1st Section test pieces is huge technically. And when you have a band that has a varied range of technical ability and, with the exception of perhaps one, no experience of any band members previously playing in the Championshiop Section, for some it can be quite daunting. Don't get me wrong, most of us are looking forward to the challenge. However, at our level, the commitment that will be required will be huge to be able to go and put on a respectable performance, and a few band members have already admitted that they won't be able to put this amount of commitment in. And also, let's face it, most experienced, competent players, if looking for a Championship section band to play in will look at the most successful, sustainable band to join. You only have to look at the classifieds to see that many Championship bands still require players!

Add to that the extra percussion that is always required for Championship section and the task ahead is going to be not only huge, but I would imagine quite stressful for some!

yorkyboy
28.10.2005, 19:12
Possibly!

However, there is no getting away from the fact that the difference in 'some' championship test pieces, such as 'Journey to the Centre of the Earth' compared to the usual 1st Section test pieces is huge technically. And when you have a band that has a varied range of technical ability and, with the exception of perhaps one, no experience of any band members previously playing in the Championshiop Section, for some it can be quite daunting. Don't get me wrong, most of us are looking forward to the challenge. However, at our level, the commitment that will be required will be huge to be able to go and put on a respectable performance, and a few band members have already admitted that they won't be able to put this amount of commitment in. And also, let's face it, most experienced, competent players, if looking for a Championship section band to play in will look at the most successful, sustainable band to join. You only have to look at the classifieds to see that many Championship bands still require players!

Add to that the extra percussion that is always required for Championship section and the task ahead is going to be not only huge, but I would imagine quite stressful for some!



I appreciate that fully.
I was a member of Hade Edge this year and the task we had was huge and at the end of the day we just wanted to go and put on a respectable performance and be proud of ourselves. The commitment level was immense and to a certain extent we got lucky as the piece compared to 2004 was not as technically demanding, although it was a hell of a blow.
having looked at the score this years piece appears to be a very demanding piece once again and as you rightly say it is in a different world compared to a 1st section test piece.
Best of luck to you and your band- but just remember that at the end of the day its only a band contest.

ian perks
28.10.2005, 20:51
We had a look at Voyage Of Discovery for first time last night

BRILLIANT PIECE band are looking forward to this one and our Conductor as said its a BELTING PIECE to play.
But first we have got to tackle Purcell Variants for Butlins this is also a GREAT PIECE to play as well
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14/14_4_102.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm477) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_6_35.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm477) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_6_32.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm477) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_6_30.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm477)

JR
28.10.2005, 23:19
[QUOTE=yorkyboy]That is a entire subject on its own. The gulf between the 1st section and championship in Yorkshire is great.

No it isnt - the bottom 4 or 5 top section bands and the top 5 or 6 1st section are virtually interchangeable - why do you think the top section is so large these days?
I think you really mean the gulf between the top 7/8 Yorks outfits and everyone else - that is a serious gulf!
I have a controversial remedy - scrap the 1st section - it has outlived it's usefulness. Lets do the opposite of dumbing down and enrich(?) the lower sections


john r

FlugelD
29.10.2005, 00:52
Don't know if it's mentioned elswhere, but 'Images..' (2nd Section) - there are discrepancies 'twixt 1st 'bone part and score, 1st and 2nd movements - any erratta published yet, or anyone else spotted boo-boos?

starperformer
02.11.2005, 16:26
I have had a blow through 2nd and 3rd section pieces, and seen the scores. They are a great challenge (and I'll probably have to spend a fair bit of the next few weeks' home practice getting my part nailed before we pull it out in earnest) but I'd be interested to hear the "grumblers" come up with specific examples of passages (on any part) in either piece that average players in those sections could not master with appropriate practice between now and March.

I'm sure there will be plenty of players in both sections that go on unable to play their parts, particularly in the lower standard areas such as L&SC - but I don't think that's the problem of the music panel. If you're not interested in learning your part for the areas and don't mind putting in a rubbish performance, then fair enough. But I can't think of any reason why appropriately hard-working and ambitious groups of players cannot master these pieces and put in top-notch performances.
As has already been said, I wish people would stop claiming, either explicitly or implicitly, that technical pieces cannot be played musically. All that happens when you have easy pieces is a lottery of subjective adjudication which benefits no-one. The claim that people who can't or won't bother to learn the dots on hard pieces will suddenly pull some amazing musical performance out of the bag on an easy piece is pure fantasy.

Will the Sec
02.11.2005, 21:40
I'm sure there will be plenty of players in both sections that go on unable to play their parts, particularly in the lower standard areas such as L&SC

Are you intentionally being sanctimonious here?

lausonbass
02.11.2005, 22:10
we haven't played voyage of discovery yet at band, we're not allowed till after the leicester contest, hope it's better than comedy though didn't like that much, we're playing prisms for the leicester contest and am properly loving that,

Does anyone have any opinions on it?

Griffin
02.11.2005, 22:30
Just curious here ... the areas are still some time away ... how many actually take their parts home to work on and master them? You would think that working on a bit at a time, any technical problems could be identified and (ideally) sorted out. Even with a short rehearsal programme (for the band) leading up to the contest, the end results would be more dramatically realised (in an ideal world, that is!).

I most certainly have... Up against Roberts and Crockford et al... need all the practice I can get!

Great peice though.. can't wait.

ba da bab ba ba.. I'm lovin' it

Flugelmahorn
03.11.2005, 08:50
I'm sure there will be plenty of players in both sections that go on unable to play their parts, particularly in the lower standard areas such as L&SC


...and I'm sure there will be similar situations in other so-called (in your opinion) "higher standard" areas........



But I can't think of any reason why appropriately hard-working and ambitious groups of players cannot master these pieces and put in top-notch performances.


...and there are groups like that in L&SC......

stevetrom
03.11.2005, 09:30
we haven't played voyage of discovery yet at band, we're not allowed till after the leicester contest, hope it's better than comedy though didn't like that much, we're playing prisms for the leicester contest and am properly loving that,

Does anyone have any o...pinions on it?

we had a run through it when we bought it, seems pretty good on 1st impression. It HAS toi be more of a laugh than Comedy, where was the joke?

Deano
03.11.2005, 10:08
Don't know if it's mentioned elswhere, but 'Images..' (2nd Section) - there are discrepancies 'twixt 1st 'bone part and score, 1st and 2nd movements - any erratta published yet, or anyone else spotted boo-boos?

The discrepancies are also in 2nd & Bass Bone in first movement and 2nd Bone in 2nd movement, looks like the proof reader done an excellent job once again.

I'm going to check the rest of the parts over the next few days and send an erratta list to Kirklees. Maybe they'll pay me for proof reading?

iancwilx
03.11.2005, 10:28
I have had a blow through 2nd and 3rd section pieces,
As has already been said, I wish people would stop claiming, either explicitly or implicitly, that technical pieces cannot be played musically. All that happens when you have easy pieces is a lottery of subjective adjudication which benefits no-one. The claim that people who can't or won't bother to learn the dots on hard pieces will suddenly pull some amazing musical performance out of the bag on an easy piece is pure fantasy.

I agree completely, but I do think that some 2nd section players are faced with awsome challenges which, with all the practice they can cram, in will still prove insurmountable.
It is true though, that the practice will improve a players/ bands technique and reading ability so this is a long term benefit.
A tough challenge will definitely sort out the bands with greater ability on the day, and improve the quality of bands lower down the scale.
The question is, will the Adjudicators acknowledge and reward the superior performances ?
- Wilky

Dave Euph
03.11.2005, 14:33
I most certainly have... Up against Roberts and Crockford et al... need all the practice I can get!

Great peice though.. can't wait.

ba da bab ba ba.. I'm lovin' it
A player of ours who practises! :o

Heh, no it's a good point though. In the case of a lot of bands if the players practised their parts, the standard of the piece as a whole would be dramatically improved. The conductor could spend less time "note-bashing" and more time working on the interpretation.

But with modern-day work commitments, finding such time if you are not a student is quite a challenge!

As for me, I'm giving "Journey..." the odd cursory glance and after Wilkos I'll start to really work at it.

neiltwist
04.11.2005, 00:14
I'm sorry, but I am refusing to look at the part until february, or i'll be flaming bored by the time the contest comes (apart from the bass trom solo of course :eek:, where I'll be playing against such greats as...)

Just Crazy
04.11.2005, 12:05
Don't know if it's mentioned elswhere, but 'Images..' (2nd Section) - there are discrepancies 'twixt 1st 'bone part and score, 1st and 2nd movements - any erratta published yet, or anyone else spotted boo-boos?

Yeah we notice that all the troms have 20 bars rest but on the score they are playing from the 1st beat, also there is enough percussion parts for 5 percussionists:confused:

no doubt theres more mistakes as we get more into the piece.

GJG
04.11.2005, 12:23
I'm going to check the rest of the parts over the next few days and send an erratta list to Kirklees. Maybe they'll pay me for proof reading?

Doubt it. They will simply wash their hands of it, and blame Rakeway Music (ie Howard Snell) who are the publishers; having spoken to Kirklees myself it seems that they are responslble only for the duplication/printing/binding/distribution of the materials supplied to them by Rakeway.

I haven't even bothered to put the music in front of the band for a read-through yet. I found many errors/discrepancies, and instances of poor engraving/typesetting (eg, collisions between dynamics/articulations/ties etc.) just on a cursory glance through the score. And the thing that prompted me initially to contact Kirklees is the absense of barlines drawn through instrumental groups. Any experienced conductor will understand how important this is when attempting to quickly identify staves/instruments in a rehearsal situation. One would have thought particularly that someone with Mr. Snell's undoubted expertise and experience would have recognised this. The whole presentation is, in my opinion, amateur beyond belief (and this is before we get to the music itself). Yet we are still expected, (or rather, "forced", since we are effectively a "captive" market) to pay serious money for something that should be produced to professional standards.

sevenhelz
04.11.2005, 12:30
OH MY GOD
i'd like to quickly point out that i haven't read much of this thread
but OH MY GOD i saw images for the first time last night and it's so much scary icky fun! i'm working on my part from now until forever and i love it already! yaaay!
xx

lynchie
05.11.2005, 01:29
I've had a couple of listens to the 3rd section piece, and I can't see what all the fuss is about. Sounds like it should be fun to work on, and it'll split the good bands from the slightly dodgy. Hopefully we'll be one of the former and get a good result, I can't wait!

Dave Euph
05.11.2005, 13:18
I've had a couple of listens to the 3rd section piece, and I can't see what all the fuss is about. Sounds like it should be fun to work on, and it'll split the good bands from the slightly dodgy. Hopefully we'll be one of the former and get a good result, I can't wait!
Aye, I like Entertainments, going to be tough for most third section bands though! Tricky euphonium part but overall a very listenable piece.

Andy_Euph
05.11.2005, 23:33
I've just listened to the area cd and i've got to say I like the 4th section testpiece, its obvious its a piece for lower level bands/youth bands (which someone told me it was written for) as there is a lot of repetition but it sounds fun, lots of bouncy music although why there are heesey reference's to the national anthem and bobby shaftoe i've no idea :eek: .

Entertainments is another good piece, love Vinter's stuff anyway, mind you need an in form euph player for the first movement, and a backrow that can count...which'll be a change! :biggrin:

2nd section piece sounds good but difficult...glad i'm not playing it!

1st section, possibly one that will grow on me over time, should be a good test, although I think some areas where most of the bands are the same level (eg the northern area) will be very difficult to judge.

And the top section piece...WOW, 'nuff said! :eek:

Cornishwomble
06.11.2005, 13:12
Having heard the 4th section piece I must admit I'm not impressed. I don't like the fact that the movements are only 2-3 minutes long each, in fact I think 1 of them is less than 2 minutes. I don't think you can get into the music when it's so stop start like that.

aqua76
06.11.2005, 19:01
we had a run through it when we bought it, seems pretty good on 1st impression. It HAS toi be more of a laugh than Comedy, where was the joke?

That would be the adjudication!!! In our area at least......

brassneck
06.11.2005, 23:38
That would be the adjudication!!! In our area at least......

- I had to dig out information who these judges were .... David Read and Steve Prichard-Jones!!!! (naughty boys! ;) )

jonford
07.11.2005, 00:45
[QUOTE=Andy_Euph]I

1st section, possibly one that will grow on me over time, should be a good test, although I think some areas where most of the bands are the same level (eg the northern area) will be very difficult to judge.

QUOTE]

I don't think so, I think Lorenzo was difficult to judge because most bands could play the notes, it was all about interpretation.

In VoD I think a lot of bands will throw the performance away with the semiquavers at the start, very nerve racking opening! the solos and all the changes in time signatures I reckon will also foil some bands making it a bit easier for the adjudicator(s)!

euphgothgirl
07.11.2005, 19:20
I've just listened to the area cd and i've got to say I like the 4th section testpiece, its obvious its a piece for lower level bands/youth bands (which someone told me it was written for) as there is a lot of repetition but it sounds fun, lots of bouncy music although why there are heesey reference's to the national anthem and bobby shaftoe i've no idea :eek: .


its called ANGLIAN DANCES! it also has Keel Row and a few other tunes running through it. And even though it "obvious a piece for lower level bands." There are 5 movements and the last movement id love to seea youth band unless it was someone like the national youth band! It has alot of difficult music in for those younger less experienced players! The only reason there is repetition is too make it more joyful for an audience and the band. And from a fourth section band with a lot of young players playing the test piece they are struggling with it because they are young, (youngest at 10). And a testpiece is set to challenge the section it is wrote for.

euphgothgirl
07.11.2005, 19:23
Having heard the 4th section piece I must admit I'm not impressed. I don't like the fact that the movements are only 2-3 minutes long each, in fact I think 1 of them is less than 2 minutes. I don't think you can get into the music when it's so stop start like that.

it does stop start but sounds alot better if played the way written on the score where it supposedly meant to carry through with just a very small break, but it is a lovely piece.