Bad Losers [Archive] - theMouthPiece.com

Valvecap

07.07.2003, 12:47

Agree with you Mike - bands put a lot of effort and give up a lot of time to go contesting - 2 or three months hard slog is all for a 15 minute performance. Sometimes a band plays badly and gets placed accordingly - players moan but deep down know they were not up to speed. Occasionally band plays well and gets placed badly - it happens and may lead to issues with adjudication.

Comments i have seen like "percussion too loud at J" (when there was no percussionist on the stage.... dont help people take "interesting" decisions any easier.

Any loser in a competition will look for something to blame other than themselves (in this case, the band) but if Adjudication is correct, then its just a case of been honest with ourselves... so the comment should maybe be

"we was robbed".... IMHO

Di B

07.07.2003, 13:54

How about 'there are bad losers because there are bad winners?'

One of my gripes are bands who are so full of themselves that they are bragging about winning even before they started to play! Have to admit, that if a band like this wins I cannot help but be a bad loser. I guess that cockniess and over confidence is not an attractive trait! I do think its a shame though. We should all be supportive of one another and have friendly rivalry. We shouldn't be trying to outdo each other and turn a contest into an alternative boxing ring!

Saying that, wherever our band has come, if I know of a band that has done well and has struggled along the way I am happy that they have acheived success (genuinely, I am!!!)

I think the other thing that makes me personally a bad loser is pathetic remarks from the adjudicator. Telling everyone they are good doesn't help, neither does 'this isn't my favourite piece' (contests (even own choice) should be about playing capabilities and extracting the music surely?). Adjudicators need to give constructive criticism with encouragement. That gives the band something to work on that they can aim for and they don't feel too ****ty. I personally don't believe it is too much to ask and do feel that there would be a lot less bad feeling if the band who was placed 2nd and the band placed 15th didn't have very similar remarks!!!!

Ohhh, that was a good rant! :lol:

Baldeagle

07.07.2003, 23:48

I get the feeling that some of the previous comments might have been aimed at my band . So here are the remarks from Roy Roe for Carlton Brass at this years Brass n Trams Open event.

North East Midlands Brass Band Association
Order of Play 5

Adjudicators Remarks

The Waltonian

Good bright opening detail is good, good sounds displayed, this continues throughout. Good opening number

Prelude 49th Paralle

Tuneful opening, phrasing is good, and some lovely sounds displayed from all sections, all moves along so very much under control, most enjoyable.

Silver Threads amongst the Gold

Good controlled opening, musical opening theme (B) not always controlled in cornets, good Bass line noted in support of soloist, also ensemble supports soloist very well. Soloist.
, very good playing, lovely sounds, just occasionally gets a little untidy but generally well in command, most enjoyable.

We’ll Meet Again

Pity trombone intonation mars opening, but all settles in main theme. All moves along very well, with some good musical detail, good work from all soloists into a good close.

The Contestor

Opening needs to be a little more precise overall, nice cornet, and good dynamic detail, Bass solo lower band sustain all note values. Trio, some neat playing here, good bass line, Final section played in fine style.

Czardas

Neat precise opening moves along at good pace, detail is good and creates excitement throughout. Well done.

Olympic Theme and Fanfare

Convincing opening, would prefer a little less tempo – allows music to speak, detail is good and playing convincing. Fine Finish.

Very Good Programme very well presented and played. Thank You Roy Roe 6/7/03

Points 189

Placing 1

rutty

08.07.2003, 08:31

I liked the belly dancers ;)

Di B

08.07.2003, 11:37

[quote="Baldeagle"]I get the feeling that some of the previous comments might have been aimed at my band . So here are the remarks from Roy Roe for Carlton Brass at this years Brass n Trams Open event.
/quote]

Not your band.... but maybe a player that has been associated with your band in the past, yes. (hey, I'm honest!) Then again, I could probably reel off a load of names that the above also applies to and none of them would be in relation to Carlton!

Just wanted to inform it was a general gripe about general banding and not an attack of any kind. I have even been in bands/seen bands where coming second was seen as a disappointment not an achievement as they were so confident and I think it is a shame. I have also seen and heard people calling their own players and blaming them for their bad result and people saying that another band rigged it/got ringers in/had a fluke. It just gets nasty and I think as a community as a whole we should support each other more... there are less bands around as it is nowadays.

Banding should be enjoyed first and foremost in my own opinion. Winning is the icing on the cake and should be enjoyed thoroughly when acheived!

Congrats for winning (dare I say again under the circumstances of this post? *grins*) and best of luck next weekend! If you could post the results on here it would be appreciated!

iancwilx

08.07.2003, 11:48

At the 1st SectionArea about 3 years ago (Music for the Common Man),one of the Childs Bros was in the box (I forget which one) - the remarks were excellent - like YBS on a good day - he praised all sections and soloists and liked the reading - We ended up 10th !!! - no constructive crit at all.
Senior trophy this year - band played well, soloists excelled - the only criticism in the remarks was that he didn't care for the tempos - position 20th (Last) - surely if we were that bad he could have pointed out the failings in more detail.
I believe that some (? majority) of judges sort out the top six placings but just "shuffle the pack" for the remainder - writing them all bland, encouraging and totally useless remarks and just numbering them 7th to last after the last band has performed.
This is especially easy when only placings are given and no points.
Unfortunately our choice of actions seems to be "Like it or Lump it" !!

Tuba Girl

08.07.2003, 23:39

I have to agree. Why is it the bands placed lower than 6th more or less have exactly the same adjudications. My band this year have done alright but not the best but get faultless adjudications when we are placed 7th and so on. Why are we not told of our faults so we can improve?
I have to admit initially I am a bad loser, if I think we have played well, but a few pints later and I am fine.
:roll: :roll:

youngman

08.07.2003, 23:44

[quote="Di B"][quote="Baldeagle"]I get the feeling that some of the previous comments might have been aimed at my band . So here are the remarks from Roy Roe for Carlton Brass at this years Brass n Trams Open event.
/quote]

Not your band.... but maybe a player that has been associated with your band in the past, yes. (hey, I'm honest!) Then again, I could probably reel off a load of names that the above also applies to and none of them would be in relation to Carlton!

Can't guess who you are on about di !!!!!!!
Certainly at leamington the quote" winning is getting boring" seems to have an air of arrogance about it. Fortunately the culprit has left the said band, but it did upset a fair few folk at the contest. Be good losers........ we have had plenty of practice! :twisted:

Di B

09.07.2003, 10:47

*sighs* There I am attempting to be a fine example of discretion (don't laugh people!!!!!) and you had to come along Youngman! lol!

Big feet an all that eh? :wink:

It was that statement that did peev me though... even beer didn't help me calm down much!!!!!

Interesting thing about the similar comments on adjudicators remarks though.... lack of constuctive criticism seems to be a major fault (with the minority at least). Just wondered if there was anything we could do about it? After all, we now have the Association of adjudicators and surely if enough people got together from this list supporting the request that adjudicators provide something for bands to work on we could submit it?

Or am I just trying to change something that will never change here? Maybe I am just having one of those 'I am all powerful' days!!! *grins*

Lemme know what people think!

Brian

09.07.2003, 16:35

I am constantly amazed at the comments that come out on this forum ! If you cannot accept the adjudicators decision "DON'T GO TO THE CONTEST" !.. If you have satisfied your Musical Director with the standard of your playing, you should be satisfied. Remember it's the decison of one person who awarded the prize, or didn't as the case may be..Ask yourself this question " Am I as qualified as the adjudicator to do the job he was employed to do to the best of his ability" if not stop moaning about it. Maybe you ought to consider enrolling on the Adjudicators Course run by the National Association of Brass Band Conductors..Then you will realise what a very difficult task adjudicating really is..Adjudicators only please the ones they give prizes to, so keep practising and maybe one day you will be in the fortunate position of getting in the prizes..Sharon (Shaz) has the right attitude..she was satisfied with her Bands performance, and thats as it should be...

JessopSmythe

09.07.2003, 18:37

I think that just about says it. Couldnt agree more

jackyboy

09.07.2003, 19:57

:D WELL SAID BRIAN ! Its about time we got some constructive comments here. About time you came back and sorted the banding movement out :idea:

Roger Thorne

09.07.2003, 21:02

If you cannot accept the adjudicators decision "DON'T GO TO THE CONTEST"
That reminded me of a letter I read recently on another well known Brass Band web site:

I write whilst my blood is still boiling about another naff result: Grand Shield 2002 - last place (the judges got it badly wrong). Area 2003 - last place (the judge got it badly wrong - this is a fact as the adjudication did not match our performance - it highlighted clear mistakes in the performance that weren't made by us. This is black and white and shouldn't happen so I can only presume that we were erroneously awarded last - but we have no right of appeal here)

Senior Cup 2003 - 8th place - condemned to at least one further year scatting around the lower reaches of top level banding...(oh yes - and the judges got it badly wrong) I can accept that a duff performance only deserves a duff result - our performance at Tameside a few weeks ago was very patchy - superbly and accurately summed up by Kevin Bolton in his remarks - and he gave us third place. No complaints... in fact can we clone him? It would certainly help to solve the problem.

Today Wingates played a superb performance from number 12 and I am extremely disappointed not to have won. There were a couple of clips - and so the door was left open, but to not even have gained promotion back to the Grand Shield when the performance easily deserved it is nothing less than sick. Have we upset someone? Is it a Masonic thing?

Congratulations to those bands who have qualified several of whom did give fine performances, but in placing us 8th the judges got it wrong - it's that simple.

Now are the judges entirely to blame? Possibly not... in the hall used for the Senior cup the box was off the the left of the band so the cornets were pointing straight at the box, the troms straight away... and the box itself looked sturdy enough to sail across the Atlantic in, 3 quarter inch ply wood - it must have excellent acoustic qualities (NOT!) What other form of music making competition imposes has such a crassly stupid system of judging?

Why do we travel thousands of miles every year to rehearsals to subject ourselves to this nonsense? Brass Band Contests are dying - and this is why. The question is do those who control decisions about things like this have the balls to do something about it? I think not - so nothing will change and the carcass of banding will continue to rot.

The future is open adjudication - if a judge cannot be truly impartial then he should not judge at all. Where there are multiple judges they should NOT be allowed to confer and should allocate rankings independently (as at Cambridge)

All I want to know, when I am slogging up and down the motorway to rehearsals, is to know that when we come to perform for real on the contest platform we will be dealt with fairly and evenly.

Frankly I don't care who I upset now - it's time to make waves to improve things for everyone. Is this sour grapes? Absolutely - and I make no apology for them because as I have said if we deserved the run of results we've had I would have no problem in accepting them. Get it sorted banding - time is running out!

The joys of Banding, eh!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

aimee_euph

09.07.2003, 22:09

One of my gripes are bands who are so full of themselves that they are bragging about winning even before they started to play! Have to admit, that if a band like this wins I cannot help but be a bad loser. I guess that cockniess and over confidence is not an attractive trait! I do think its a shame though.
My youth band have won at the Youth Nationals 5years (maybe more, dont quite know...) on the row, from 1997 - 2002 the A band won their section they entered, came top in 3different sections (4 if you include the name change). Then we had a year off, and the B Band entered and won this year.
Now, i want to win as much as the next person, but i can't quite help having the feeling that we have won before the results are announced. And all the times I have played in the contest, we have won.
However, at contests such as entertainment ones etc. it is rather annoying when you know your band was the better on the day (without being cocky, i listened to the majority and without being biased, okay maybe a little bit...) and another band win because they used a flag and some hats and percussion instruments etc. Also, our conductor NEVER EVER speaks at entertainment contests because she knows it may lead to biastry for the band, so she gets well spoken (non-scousers) to speak to introduce the pieces etc. Quite a few bands have their fairly famous (well known) conductors to speak at these particular contests and they have won quite a few times, this is what makes me a bad loser!!!

However, it cheeses me off that our training band won at the youth nationals this year, and i didnt play and i thought they were the best band on the day, and i listened to them all and i wasn't really biased because i wasn't playing.
on our way out, me and my dad overheard some people talking saying "St Helens Youth only won because that Lynda Nicholson conducts them and they always win. It's a fix."
Could it be that St. Helens Yotuh are a good band, and always have been?! Fair enough we lose players due to uni etc. but we have a good conductor and it just so happens that she made Rainford Silver Band go up from 4th section to 2nd section in 2years.

It's just irratating!!

Kernewek Den

09.07.2003, 23:50

If you want to see (alleged) bad losers have a look at the guest book of 'Jag Mount Charles Band' ( http://www.mountcharlesband.co.uk) - it'll be interesting to see if war breaks out!

satchmo shaz

10.07.2003, 08:53

blimey! :o just read it!

stephen2001

10.07.2003, 11:14

At the end of the day, the players in a competing band, in my opinion, cannot fairly compare their own bands performace with anothers.

Certainly, when I'm playing, I'm so focused on my own part, I don't hear mistakes from elsewhere in the band. I can remember very little of my bands performance at Crich. I know I made mistakes, that to me sounded very obvious, yet were not picked up by audience or obviously the adjudicator.
Also, the fact that you are sat in the middle of the band, rather than a few yards away out the front, makes it all sound totally different. At a set-piece contest, I am alway amazed about how different a piece sounds because you are sat at the front, hearing how it 'should' sound, rather than sat in the middle, concentrating on your own part.

OK, part of it does boil down to the ajudicators interpretation of the piece or program, and yes they may get it wrong at times (ie Whit Fri at Dobcross) but at the end of a day, it is a hobby that we are in, and certainly with any entertainments contest, it is not the be all and end all.

Just my two penneth on the matter at least.

Di B

10.07.2003, 11:39

I am constantly amazed at the comments that come out on this forum ! If you cannot accept the adjudicators decision "DON'T GO TO THE CONTEST" !.. If you have satisfied your Musical Director with the standard of your playing, you should be satisfied. .

I would consider the two things very different Brian. I will accept the position that the adjudicator places our band. However, I always think it is good form for the MD and the band to have feedback to work on. If that is so difficult for the adjudicators to do then I am surprised as there are many of them who manage it already! Have to admit I have only done the two contests this year but the feedback in the remarks was good and had plenty to go on to improve the performance and general playing of the band.

Additionally, I would take an adjudicators course if I wasn't so happy playing and concentrating on that! Have to admit though that just that the idea of sitting in a box without a bar in there ain't my idea of fun! :lol:

satchmo shaz

10.07.2003, 11:44

know what you mean Di, one performance is enough! :lol:

BTW I was happy with the way my band (Long Eaton) played and we can all say we should have been a bit higher up but at the end of the day we played well and improved whilst preparing for a most enjoyable day! :wink:

iggmeister

10.07.2003, 14:12

To Kernewek Dan

The comments on the JAG Mount Charles Band website are being dealt with by private email to the people who have left comments. Whilst I respect freedom of speech I believe that there are ways of dealing with things and, should any band have a gripe against a fellow band or any of its members then I think the appropriate way to address those issues would be through private email or letter.

I dont think that the posts will be deleted from the site. Whilst very general in nature the posts you refer to do raise issues which affect all bands in this country. JAG Mount Charles has nothing to hide and welcomes all comments, good or bad, from people who are good enough to put a (true) name at the bottom of their comment.

Igg

Phil Green

10.07.2003, 15:29

To Iggmeister,
I think your band are hopeless......at killer!!

Your's

Anon.

Kernewek Den

10.07.2003, 15:30

Igg

I've just re-read my posting and it didn't read too well! I am not aware of what went on and am in no position to comment. You will see that I have edited my post to include 'alleged' - which as far as I'm concerned is all that it is.

Brian

10.07.2003, 15:32

:D WELL SAID BRIAN ! Its about time we got some constructive comments here. About time you came back and sorted the banding movement out :idea:

You may be pleased to know "Jackyboy" whoever you are, that I am returning to the UK in August.Hopefully to become involved in the Brass Band Scene once again..Whilst it has been wonderful living in Thailand, the general standard of playing is still quite poor ( apart from my band of course)The thing I like about competitons in South East Asia is the total lack of bitchiness and bad manners. When the placings are announced, everybody, and I mean everybody congratulates those in the prizes..Thats how it should be...And after adjudicating in the Uk, I've seen some dire decisions out here (But thats only my opinion, and as I wasn't employed to adjudicate, and didn't here all the bands from the same place in the hall as the judge, you cannot complain, nor would I )And the prize money in the open contests out here would make you perspire. My band won in Manilla a couple of months ago, 1st prize 50,000 US Dollars. And bands not placed still didn't complain..And here you don't get written remarks at all from the adjudicator. You do get a verbal report from the stage on every performance tho..but then everybody hears what he thought of your performance...

MoominDave

10.07.2003, 18:32

If you want to see (alleged) bad losers have a look at the guest book of 'Jag Mount Charles Band' ( http://www.mountcharlesband.co.uk) - it'll be interesting to see if war breaks out!

An addition to the namesakes thread - I am also an eejit who posts slightly defamatory comments to the Mount Charles website. How annoying.

Dave

iggmeister

11.07.2003, 00:28

To Kernewek Dan

I didn't take any offence. Indeed, I meant no offence with my post to you. Whilst I appreciate the comments made I too am slightly in the dark about the specifics which have lead to the generics, (if you understand what I mean!). Say hi to Ross and Barry from the Iggmeister.

To MoominDave

If your message on this forum was an admission that you posted on our site under 'Dave T' I have no problem with your comment. In fact I took it as positive. Thanks for taking the time to listen to us and for visiting our website.

To Phil Green

you need to realise that Mr Igg Stickmeister was not part of the JAG Team which came 2nd in the hallowed Blackwell Manor Grange Killer Pool tournament in the early hours of the morn of Spennymoor contest day. He was tucked up in bed. Unfortunately, there will be no rematch this year just when the Stickmeister is coming into his prime!

(Hustler) Igg
3rd cousin once removed to Paul Newman

Mr nice guy

11.07.2003, 18:10

Wow Baldeagle nice photo what ya got on your head?.

PeterBale

12.07.2003, 09:43

Wow Baldeagle nice photo what ya got on your head?.

I thought it was a coal-scuttle - maybe he's hoping to pick up some samples at the Durham Miners' Gala :!: :wink: :lol:

geordiecolin

12.07.2003, 18:34

When i have played at contest i like to think that i can predict a bands approx placing. hence, it is very rarely that i will resort to blaming an adjudicator, theirs is after all, an unenviable task!!

I have only really had a major feeling "we was robbed" once at that was at killamarsh entertainments contest last year.

if you are as good a bandspeople as you think you are and have been around x number of years and have played for x, y and z bands, then surely it isn't rocket science to predict your placings to a fair degree of accuracy, maybe to within 2 or 3 places. obviously this could mean the difference between winning or losing but that is where interpretation comes into it.

All i cna say is that especially at the bigger contests (eg midlands area) i do get the feeling that the placings from 7th or 8th down are random but that is how the cookie crumbles.

deal with it i say and move on! take the oppurtunity to push even harder the next time!!

There is a very thin line between AMBITION and PRIMA DONNAism!!

Pythagoras

12.07.2003, 23:23

Disagreeing with the adjudicator is part of the fun of contests! Football would be boring if you thought the ref had got every decision right.

There are a lot of comments here about the lack of constructive criticism in comments after contests. Would a possible solution to this be to record the performances and have the adjudicator write comments after having more time to reflect, rather than have them write comments on 20 bands playing in quick order, which inevitably produces some bland comment sheets. You wouldn't get your comments immediately after the performance but you'd probably get better ones.

On the subject of predicting where you are going to finish, I've definitely noticed that out of the 'young' banders I have played with Geordiecolin and particularly Sparkling Quavers, who have both been involved in banding since the year dot, seem to have the best estimate of where we are going to finish and also the most realistic appraisal of our performance, so probably once you've been to a few contests you can get pretty good at predicting where you are going to finish.

tubatu

13.07.2003, 10:28

My band is a non contesting band and has been for over 10 years. The descision was not taken lightly and happened because of an incident at an entertainment contest. It was a closed adjudication and the band that won was not the best band on the day (neither were we, so it's not sour grapes!). All the bands had their programmes announced in full before they started playing, except the band that won, they had each piece individually announced before it was played. Rigged result, every other band thought so but nothing came of the complaints.
A few years ago, our Junior Band was invited to Rastrick for a contest, this involved raising a lot of money for transport and accomodation and a long journey. Portsmouth to Rastrick about 6 hours on the road!
The kids played well considering this was there first contest and were placed 8th out of 13 which was a far result.
What really annoyed me though was comments from other people in the hall. The slagging off that the Southern band got from several locals got me riled and if I had passed these comments onto my senior band colleagues, who had travelled there to assist the Juniors, I'm sure there would have been a lot of trouble.
I informed my colleagues about these comments when we were travelling back on the coach and they were, to say the least, annoyed and a letter was eventually sent to the organisers of the contest, who sent back an apology.
Even so this has made our band carry on not entering contests.

youngman

13.07.2003, 11:19

MoominDave

15.07.2003, 19:02

To MoominDave

If your message on this forum was an admission that you posted on our site under 'Dave T' I have no problem with your comment. In fact I took it as positive. Thanks for taking the time to listen to us and for visiting our website.

No - it was somebody else; I was expressing that slightly queasy 'grr' feeling that you get when you read comments that you wouldn't write written by somebody else with the same name as you...

I hope you haven't been identifying this poster to people as me!

Dave

iggmeister

15.07.2003, 23:30

I hope you haven't been identifying this poster to people as me!

Dave

No I haven't and wouldn't make any such comments without first getting confirmation from you direct. This sort of thing is annoying and I know that it is very easy for somebody to be accused of all sorts of things without them having an opportunity to say "It wasn't me!"

Even so, as I said previously, everybody is entitled to their own opinion so whoever it was doesn't really matter too much anyway.

Igg

Mr Smiler

24.07.2003, 14:13

I am someone very much in favour of getting some feedback following a performance. I've got to agree that it seems that in a field of twenty or so bands, the adjudicator picks out the top six and the rest of the placings are a lottery.

The reason it frustrates the hell out of people is the fact that one result (say at the regionals) may have an impact on the band for the rest of the year.

Last year we had a 12th placing at the areas which we thought was a bit harsh, but this year when the band played cosiderably better we were placed 13th. However, I wasn't as disappointed in the scheme of things because we did ourselves proud and I couldn't ask much more from the band than I got.

I have done some adjudication and it is very difficult, but slightly easier with a smaller field. How anyone can expect 1 person to properly remember the strengths and weaknesses of bands that played 4 hours previously to those that have just played (and then put them in a true 6th to 20th order) is asking the impossible.

Is the answer smaller fields of bands, smaller regions or more people in the box? Discuss

JessopSmythe

24.07.2003, 19:06

I'm not convinced that there is an easy solution. However many people you have in the box, there will always be complaints.

Music, of any kind, is not easy to break down into "right" and "wrong". Even with 3 adjudicators, it would be possible to bring off a very good performance and get a poor result, purely because of the different possible ways the music can be interpreted. If the guy in the box thinks the composer meant something different to what you played, you'll be marked accordingly. Add more people to the box and you just end up with odd results, i.e a band that can win a contest without being placed first by any judge :?

One possible, but highly impractical, way around this would be to only use new-ish music and have the composer adjudicate every time.

markyboy

24.07.2003, 23:25

I know this topic is about bad losers, but I would like to mke a nomination for the most sporting losers I have come across in recent years and that would have to be Hepworth Band at last years Northern Open.

When the results were announced firstly the best Sop player went Hepworth's Mark Smedley then the best overall soloist went to Hepworth Flugel player Catherine Booth.
Then it came to the band placings 3rd was announced which wasn't Hepworth then 2nd was announced which wasn't them either. So there is only first place to go. Well after Hepworth had already won 2 solo awards I think everyone in the audience thaught it was only a formalilty to give them 1st prize.
So first prize was announced and well... modesty forbids me to say who won, but The Hepworth players must have been totally gutted that they hadn't. But their reaction was really sporting in the way they shook our hands and said congratulations to us as we were all leaving the hall.
They have of course beaten us twice since and rightly so but no doubt we will overturn them sometime soon!
and I'm sure they will accept another beating with very good grace.

Di B

25.07.2003, 10:31

[quote="markyboy"]I know this topic is about bad losers, but I would like to mke a nomination for the most sporting losers I have come across in recent years and that would have to be Hepworth Band at last years Northern Open.quote]

Good for them to be so supportve of the winning band! I don't know if your band and their band know each other, but I am sure there is not a friendly rivalry/respect thingy going on now! For me, that is part of banding! If anyone from Hepworth reads this have a beer (but I'm skint so you'll have to buy it yourselves!!!)
That is another thing I find amusing though...... soloist prizes. This is the first time I have heard of a band getting a soloist prize and not being in the top three. Usually, it kind of tells you which bands are the winners (particularly for example if there is a 'best euph' prize given to a band with no euph solos in the test piece!!) I think the soloist prize should be just that - for a good soloist irrelevant of the band they are with. Is it always that the best bands have the best soloists? In my experience I would say not in the lower sections and some lower level championship section soloists band play blinders too......

I do agree that we will never get a 'perfect' way of adjudicating, but still feel that adjudicators should be paid for placing a band and giving full and detailed remarks. Personally, I don't care if they are read out, sent in the mail or put on the web! :P

Mr Smiler

25.07.2003, 11:15

One possible, but highly impractical, way around this would be to only use new-ish music and have the composer adjudicate every time.

Its a fair suggestion, but being a good composer doesn't automatically make someone a good adjudicator. Whilst a composer knows what he/she wants to hear when writing the music, its a different story when confronted with 20 or so bands playing the same piece. Also, bands who may have a different, but worthy interpretation of the piece will be penalised. Doesn't this take away the freedom of interpretation?

When I was at college we had a session with Roy Newsome on adjudicating. There was so much to listen out for: balance, tuning, style, articulation, general intonation, togetherness to name but a few. We then listened to some recordings and did some "mock adjudication". There were different pieces and different bands - about 10 bands I think - and even among the 10 or so of us in class we had diffent opinions on the placings.

There were composers and arrangers among us who knew most of the pieces but still had different interpretations on what was the best performance. Interesting.

Top marks for the sporting behaviour of the band above by the way!

stephen2001

25.07.2003, 17:48

One possible solution is to get the ajudicator to put his comments, including final mark into a ballot box kind of thing, which is opened by the contest controller at the end all the bands.
Then it is just a case of putting the bands into the right order and awarding the prizes.
The problem I can see with it is for example at the lower section areas, where anything around 20 bands can be taking part, whoever is in the box could start to subconciously change the way that he marks the piece. For example, if the 1st and last band give a roughly equal performance, because of the time gap, and all the other bands between the two, they could end up being seperated by a large distance and an 'unfair' result called by a disgruntled band!

There is no way that every result is going to be fair when the is one, two, three or more humans judging a piece of music by their own criteria. Ideas to make it fairer need to be tried and tested, but a 100% accurate answer, especially in contests with large numbers of bands, cannot be expected.

Brian

26.07.2003, 04:39

I've said this before in other parts of the forum, the result is the professional opinion of 1 person. If you don't have the belief that the person in the box can do the job, that he has been employed by the contest organisers to do, DON'T GO TO THE CONTEST. Then you will not have a problem of what you say is an unfair result...When you contest, there is generally only one person who has heard every band,followed the score, and listened from the same place in the auditorium, and that is the adjudicator..Accept his/her decision.Most are in the Adjudicators Association who monitor themselves, but I'm sure they get sick and tired of the sniping that goes on about their judgements and professionalism, especially in forums such as this..Why is it so difficult to accept the results ?

Euph-Bari

26.07.2003, 10:42

Well Said!!

IanHeard

26.07.2003, 20:34

Hi Brian,
I can`t really argue with a lot of what you say, but I think that there is a growing disatisfaction with the present "system" and to tell bands to not enter the contest if they don`t approve of the appointed adjudicator is missing the point. In this age of poorly supported contests it is quite frankly dangerous.Our contest organisers won`t thank you for that comment.
You say that " the result is the professional opinion of one person" I wish it were... all to often its a deeply flawed decision by a musical non-entity who`s only qualification is that he played for one of the top bands years ago. There are obviously exceptions to this and anyone who attends contests regularily will know the "class" adjudicators (Scott,Read,Relton etc.)
We all know the flaws with contesting and we put up with them,but don`t criticise people who wish to debate the issue and god forbid improve things!
Ian Heard
Devon.

Brian

27.07.2003, 04:27

Hi Kirmat
I don't decry people for debating any subject, but no one comes up with any logical answers to the situation. These "musical non-entities" are the ones who should be got rid of, and the contest promoters will only bow to pressure from bands who don't attend because "x, y, or z " is adjudicating.it does work..In my own Association (NEMBBA) and yes I'm still a member, even living out here in Thailand, The Judges are selected at the AGM for the contests over the year, at the AGM all member bands can vote on this..If Bands have a problem with a particular Judge that is the time to raise the issue..We tried more than 1 Judge, and still got complaints from the bands who didn't win, But what are the answers to who should adjudicate, only the tried and tested one's ? Read, Scott, Newsome etc are not getting any younger, and if we don't get new blood into the boxes we will find that in a few years there is no one left..We tried putting younger conductors in the box with the Judge, but got complaints that it could be seen as not quite right , when they were taking a band later on in the day..so whatever you do you will still have the people, unfortunately, who will not accept the result, and they are the main problem in the movement today..As I said before "Why can't they accept the decision" Thats all it takes....whether they feel it's good or bad..Perhaps contest promoters should look at why bands aren't entering contests, and that may be another ball game, or at least another topic for discussion

IanHeard

28.07.2003, 21:52

Hi again Brian,
thanks for your reply,you will note my previous posting was full of idea`s for solving the adjudicator problem....(not!)
Unfortunately in my area the powers that be sometimes seem to go out of their way to engage people who do not exactly inspire total confidence.
Our region last year employed Michael fowles to adjudicate at Bristol and quite frankly he was fantastic, he was appreciative of all the bands efforts, was very constructive in his criticisms, and was happy to take time out to explain his decisions.......and yes he awarded us second prize!
I think I`m beginning to see your point!
Ian Heard.
Devon.

Brian

29.07.2003, 03:59

Hi Kirmat, Your local Associatrion "should" be represented on the S.W. Area Committee, so if there is a problem with particular adjudicators, instruct him/her to veto these when the discussion is brought up at the Area meeting (probably in Sept/Oct).The same at your local Association meetings..Vote with your feet, and let these officials know, why and who you are not satisfied with..Imagine the scenario of very few bands entering the Area....It would only take one occasion for all hell to break loose..at Regional and National level...Maybe then these "elected" officials would listen to their member bands..

Mr Smiler

29.07.2003, 12:15

Got to agree with Brian on this one - if enough people do make enough noise something may well be done.

We had a real problem with the venue of the Midlands lower section areas and everyone kicked up a real stink about it and fair play to the regional committee they changed the venue, even though it meant running the areas over consecutive weekends.

Power to the People!

iancwilx

30.07.2003, 12:43

It wouldn't surprise me if some Adjudicators didn't just pick the top six placings and list the rest in alphabetical order !!!!!!

Brian

30.07.2003, 13:55

It wouldn't surprise me if some Adjudicators didn't just p
ick the top six placings and list the rest in alphabetical order !!!!!!

This is exactly what I've been saying about people on this forum " You are saying the adjudicators are not professional in their duties" Apart from it being in bad taste towards these people, you really should not enter contests, because if you don't come in the prizes you will blame the adjudicator...Try looking a little more inward...Try doing it yourself..Even if only with CD's you have purchased...Get the scores from your band, and write remarks about the performances you hear..even with CD's you will find it is not an easy job, then get some of your friends to do the same , and I can almost guarantee the results will not be the same, and the remarks you write will be at best mediocre..

iancwilx

30.07.2003, 22:46

Brian - All I am suggesting is that every set of remarks should contain constructive criticism of each individual bands performance, and not a "One size fits all appraisal" - is that too much to ask ?
I will admit that Adjudicating must be a thankless and tedious task where the acrimony directed at you far outweighs the job satisfaction aspect.
I suspect that it is possible that the reason that the great Prize Winning Conductors are rarely seen in the box, is because it is a tremendously taxing exercise with little or no reward - how many of us ground roots banders would volunteer ?

iancwilx

30.07.2003, 22:59

PS Brian - Having re read your posting - please forgive me if I suggest it may come over as a trifle patronising.
I am sure that you must have shared the experience of many of us when you have heard a really excellent contest performance of a piece you know intimately and have had success with at a high level, and having sat through all the bands and never heard it bettered, only to find it sidelined in favour of a performance that was "Safe" but wreaked of mediocrity and blandness.
Look at the 3 Judges in the box at Cambridge a couple of years ago.
All top Judges - I think 2 guys placed a band 1st, and the third placed them 17th (Sorry Geoffrey!)
Let's be honest - the whole Contest concept is a bagatelle.

Brian

31.07.2003, 17:04

This raises another question...the more people adjudicating the greater the variety of placings...especially if there is no contact between the two or three adjudicators...At least at the Nationals they are/ or were( as I've not been since I moved to Thailand in 2000) in the same box and you got a concensus of opinion. Is that better ? or would it be better to leave the decision to 1 person ? or do you favour two/three with no communication, as is the case at the Masters..I personally, when I was conducting, preferred there to be 1 adjudicator, if I had a problem with that person ( as I did once at the Area) my Band did not attend... so there was no problem.. the band as a whole decided. But in all my years of Banding, and being a doddering old fool I go back to the late 50's, I have never complained about an adjudicators decision..It is his/her decision, and for that I accept it..I may not agree, but would never complain as I've seen at some contests by some bands...as the old saying goes "Some you win Some you lose"...and next week/month is another contest. I look forward to being at the Royal Albert Hall this year with great anticipation.

Steveo

03.08.2003, 07:50

Lets face it, assessment of a band's performance is subjective, just like synchronised swimming. What an up and coming adjudicator might appreciate may not be the same as Newsome or Brand. But things evolve, thank god. For example we no longer play bland arrangements of operatic overtures as our tests, with vibrato the size of a house to mask poor intonation (iancwilx knows what I mean!).
When I played in the yorkshire top section many of the band adopted the 'we was robbed' attitude after every contest defeat (so that was every contest). The real reason that we were no good was that we had the 'we're just a family band' attitude and half of the band were clearly not doing any home practise.
I'm now playing for a "C Grade" band in Australia and loving it. We're never going to set the world ablaze, but you'll never hear us whinging about contest results that go against us. We just get on with it, and try and lift our performance for the next time.

mutsuj

06.08.2003, 12:49

Brian,

I have read with interest your postings on this topic, however there are without any doubt, (Champ section Yorkshire Area 2003) occasions when the adjudicator does make a complete hash of things, and I don't believe in this situation nothing should be done. (I'd be interested in anyones thoughts that the places 1 to 15 were in their minds a fair reflection on the days performances.) The Yorkshire Area have also recognised this, and to their credit acted in probably the only way they could, and bolstered the adjudicators to two, taking away subjectiveness to an extent, and created an opportunity to challenge and debate within the box.

Well done to Peggy & Co, we may not have another Yorkshire carve up again.